Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer

17 Oct 00 - 01:05 PM (#320941)
Subject: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: MichaelAnthony

Hello Hearty Mudcatters:

Who else has this concern? I'm going to do my best, but may have to adjust to a life of criticism, but also opportunity. I sometimes think about failure, and sometimes success. Writing good songs that become known is some kind of mandate for me, but I don't want to potentially spoil something personally sacred by risking failure.

That's the way I'm feeling. Please don't be annoyed at my lack of clarity here -- what is easy for some is not as easy for others.

What if I just bit the bullet and did whatever it takes, using small goals, then larger ones.

MichaelAnthony

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17 Oct 00 - 01:09 PM (#320944)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: wysiwyg

Me too!

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17 Oct 00 - 01:53 PM (#320970)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: GUEST

...with good reason. It has almost become cliche for successful musicians to become disenchanted with various aspects of the music business. Why spoil a magical and almost sacred endeavor with the despicable likes of egos, immoral business managers and practices, grueling tour schedules and isolation from family and friends who have your best interests at heart, despite the throngs of screaming fans tearing at your clothes. Janis Joplin said she went on stage and made love to 25,000 people, then went home alone. No wonder their talents wind up at the bottom of a bottle or cooked up in a dingy spoon. The money may be good, but it's just not worth it.

And that's the success stories. For every story like that, there's a thousand talented musicians who could play rings around the popular drivel on the radio today, who'd sell their souls just for the chance at adding their name to the long list of Betty Ford clinic celebrities. And a lot of them wind up the same way regardless. Only difference is, no one's ever heard of them.

Sort of like this guy

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17 Oct 00 - 01:59 PM (#320978)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: M. Ted (inactive)

If you can't deal with criticism and failure, the business of music will make short work of you--

That said, you should know that everyone that creates and performs feels these same things that you are talking about--there is a constant battle with the fear of failure, and the dread of critcism--the determination to overcome those things is your real "potential", whether anyone likes to admit it or not, talent is a distant second--

Bob Dylan was not the greatest singer, Billy Joel was not the greatest songwriter, and Madonna, well, she was not the greatest anything, but they all were determined above all else to be successful--

People like Benny Goodman, Michael Jackson, and Richard and Karen Carpenter were perfectionists--they made every sacrifice to assure that their vision was carried out--

Liberace, Garth Brooks, Kiss, all made pleasing their audiences the most important thing in their lives--

Don't know if you are willing to make the kinds of efforts that these people made--most of us here have chosen not to make the kind of committments that these people have, because the demands preclude other things that are important to us (some of us don't realize that we have made the choices, but...) You get the picture, though--

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17 Oct 00 - 02:00 PM (#320980)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: Jim Krause

Then there are those of us (me) who have had a taste of the musical life and ache for the chance to get more. But certain physical limitations interefer, like not being able to drive at night. My advise to those like me: If you don't have a Merle Watson, don't quit your day job, or find a Merle Watson if you just (like me) can't do anything else.

By the way, I'm taking applications for Merle Watson's job. Anybody interested, send a PM Soddy

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17 Oct 00 - 02:06 PM (#320984)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: Mooh

Mike. I take it you're not the bass player for Van Halen then?

I'm doing music part-time with a tolerable "day job" making up the difference. My music job involves both teaching guitar and performing. I could do it full-time but I'm trying to be careful and responsible about cash-flow.

It might work to have a job from which you're free to come and go as dictated by your music. Some employers are okay with this but most are not. It would provide a safety net though.

Mooh.

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17 Oct 00 - 02:19 PM (#320992)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: Jim Krause

Mooh, Yeah, tried that safety net thing for years. My safety nets always turned into straight jackets, though. Soddy

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17 Oct 00 - 07:09 PM (#321300)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: Jim the Bart

In 1969 I dropped out of school (Northern Illinois University) to pursue a "career in music". I saw myself as a singer, was considered to have some talent playing the trumpet and had taught myself to play guitar. I had worked in R'n'R bands in high school and my increased focus on playing and singing in coffeehouses had made further schooling unthinkable. I started playing with my best friend from high school who was in the same mental place. He played guitar and sang and we complimented each other well. Eventually we added band mates, played country and country rock in bars and at colleges, recorded demos. The band came close to recording contracts but never got over the hump. I have continued to play different styles of music in different formats ever since. I no longer try to support myself through music, and haven't since 1980.

Now I suppose you could read all that and say "yeah, so?". After all, there are about a million (or maybe just thirteen hundred and fifty-two) guitar pickers who have the same kind of story. And some of them are sitting somewhere crying in their beer about lost opportunities, and the cruel music bizness, and bad luck, and broken promises, and outright lies (both told and heard) and all the other stuff that comes along with a career in playing music. Or with living any kind of life. But I will tell anyone, anytime that I wouldn't trade the life I led for anything.

It's great to spend your full time and attention submersed in the music. When your only concern is learning new songs, writing new songs, making arrangements of songs, learning new techniques for playing and singing, and jamming with your fellow musicians, life is all good. Unfortunately, a career in the music business still requires "taking care of business". One of the key skills you will need quickly is an elusive one - how you can turn all that talent into hard currency. It's a skill that can't be overestimated, that takes up way too much time and that has, frankly, escaped me. But even so, if you love music, and throw your heart into it, you will get more back than you could ever imagine.

There are a lot of music careers available. One thing to keep in mind - Any professional working in the arts learns early on that the monetary awards rarely correspond to the value of the work. I have seen my best efforts totally ignored and a few trifles praised way beyond their importance. This means that you need to be clear with yourself about your expectations. How will you determine the value of this music career that you're contemplating. Before you quit your day job, ask yourself what "a successful career" in music looks like to you. Then take a look at where you're at now. How can you get there from here? Do you need some more training? Do you need co-conspirators? Do you need to move to Music City or the Brill Building?

You have to figure out all this stuff in advance because if you don't, you won't know if you're a success or not. You can count on there being a whole line of people ready to tell you how you've failed.

Over the time I spent as a "professional" I made many close friends that I still have. I met my wife and fell in love. I lost my best friend for about twenty years, then found him again. I learned a lot. I learned enough about music to allow me to still play from time to time and have a hell hole of a lot of fun without practicing all the time. I didn't ever make enough money, but I've got some great stories. So, you tell me did I succeed? I wrote a song last week that is, in my humble opinion, my best one yet. I guess it ain't over til the fat guy sings - or in my case, quits singing.

Follow your heart. Music's about more than just a "career" - it's about life.
That's all I know. Good luck
Bart

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17 Oct 00 - 10:47 PM (#321470)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: MichaelAnthony

Thanks, all!

Bart, congratulations on your success! If you wouldn't trade the experiences that made you what you are today, met your wife through music, and have a good time playing, sounds like success to me. I'll continue to write songs until I have a large group that feel good to play. And learn covers that feel good to play. Then I'll decide what to do with them. It's a success just to be able to pull a song off and connect, even if it's only with a few young people in Asheville, NC, or a Mudcatter.

M. Ted, it seems like overcoming fear is SO important as a life lesson...I hope it's possible for me.

Another challenge is to be able to do two things at once -- make songs and recordings AND do something that pays the bills...others here do it, but I've been in a place where I could only do the first thing.

Keep the positive additions to this thread coming -- haven't we all been here?

Thanks, MA

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17 Oct 00 - 11:51 PM (#321509)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: MK

Only if you feel driven and compelled to do it, then go for it!

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18 Oct 00 - 12:22 AM (#321524)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: WyoWoman

It's like I say in my writing seminars: If you can possibly do anything else in the world besides be a writer, do it. Those of us who make our living at it only do so because we're temperamentally unsuited for anything else. And that's one reason I didn't go for a career in music, although I can sing fairly well. I've just always been too shy or too lacking in confidence to put myself out there. And too grossed out with a lot of the people I met in the music bidnez.

With writing, you can go hole up in your office and produce stuff. With music, you have to be willing to be very "out there." Some people are tempermentally suited for this way of life and for others, who aren't and have to fake it, it wears on the spirit.

But I also know it's possible to have music be deeply satisfying for a whole lifetime whether or not you make your living with it. I'm a lot happier now that I've realized that my voice, whether my musical voice or my writing voice, is meant for service and I try to make it count that way.

ww

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18 Oct 00 - 12:48 AM (#321534)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: MichaelAnthony

Wyo,

I've been thinking a lot about writing lately. It's really a comfortable way to create. I suppose one could write, even if the product is a simple song, and remain a writer but not a performer.

I've also been thinking about "temperamentally unsuited for anything else". That has been me for the last few months, and will probably take a stab at doing something else to find out for sure. I'm always thinking of a quote I read somewhere --- "The music people who are the most successful are the folks who can't do anything else".

But I'm not convinced about that...

MichaelAnthony

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18 Oct 00 - 01:20 PM (#321901)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: Jim Krause

The music people who are the most successful are the folks who can't do anything else. Sounds like me, but I wouldn't exactly call myself successful only because I'm not where I would wish to be.

For me, touring was like a drug, or so it sounds from the recovering druggies I have known. I was at my best on stage, and my lowest off stage. I toured for a couple of years with a great group, a trio. We had a lot of fun, but the musical fit wasn't a good one, so realizing this, I quit rather than alienate two good friends. The money was good too, and I miss that, certainly. And continuing the drug addict analogy, I miss the experience. And I really want it back. Just like a junkie, gimme some more. 'Cause boy, it sure was fun.

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18 Oct 00 - 01:38 PM (#321922)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: Jim the Bart

Unlike in some of the other arts (I think of it as the "great actor - bad waiter" paradigm), I think that what you learn in pursuing a career in music really helps you to succeed in other fields. Lately, in business, I have found that often the most competent, self-reliant, imaginative workers are people who once pursued music as a profession. If writers are people who are "temperamentally unsuited for anything else", maybe musicians are people who could do almost anything else, but just don't wanna.

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18 Oct 00 - 01:43 PM (#321928)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: Jim Krause

Bart, would that were the case. Nope, not here. I do this music thing because I have proven to my own satisfaction at least that I truly am incapable of doing anything else, and retain my sanity at the same time.

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19 Oct 00 - 12:55 PM (#322592)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson at work

MichaelAnthony, I wiull never forget Noel Coward's advice on writing plays, which went "Write what pleases you, and if it doesn't please other people, get out of the business and do something else."
I like both parts of that statement. Write (or sing) what you know and what you are familiar with. When visiting friends in Fl I am struck by the Florida-nature of the singer-songwriter's work, the songs are so steeped in local color that you cannot imagine them being written about any place else on earth. (JU Lee, hope you or Kristi is reading this! example of a GREAT songwriter)
Then you have to decide is this the way I am called on to make a living? If yes, then you're stuck. If not, youmight find yourself on the same path I have taken: make a living through something other than music, and keep it as mainly a hobby, getting together with friends to make music, and lots of free gigs (nursing homes, etc) and the occasional paying gig (contra dances, historical societies) while making a living through conventional means. I am convinced that I have the best of both worlds, and keep having this fear that if I tried to do it for a living & came to depend on it for my income that it would stop being fun.
but every so often I stop and ask if I am the fox looking up at the grapes and deciding they are probably sour.

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19 Oct 00 - 02:07 PM (#322641)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: Little Hawk

I have always found the music business scary, and have mostly avoided it and found other ways of earning a living, so I can understand how you feel. I play music to enjoy it and express myself, not to climb the "success" ladder. Sometimes, though, I flirt with the notion...

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19 Oct 00 - 02:40 PM (#322674)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: Naemanson

This is no different than any other endeavor. If you are going to make it the center of your existance you have to feel driven to it. If not it can be your hobby or second career. Either way it can be fulfilling if you let it be.

The second thoughts you are having are normal and natural.

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19 Oct 00 - 03:29 PM (#322716)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: Jimmy C

I played "PROFESSIONALLY" for a good number of years but always kept my day job,because it was a great job and I enjoyed it almost as much as the music. I had enough vacation time to allow us to do some mini local tours when we could and I had a great benefit package and pension scheme waiting for me at the end of my career. Being an immigrant with a wife and family these things are very important. I did not shrink from the challenge of being a full time musician and all the hardships and temptations that can be associated with that lifestyle, but I did not want my family to suffer because of my actions. I feel that being successful at something is directly proportional to the amount of enjoyment you get out of it. Now when I look back I am glad I made he choices that i did. I retired at age 55 , and living fairly comfortably with a grown up family and a grandchild in the next town. I still perform and probably always will. Other musicians that I worked with in the "Old Days" who went full time are now struggling to survive and I suspect they may rue not keeping another career as a safety net, they now play music not for enjoyment but strictly for the money, all pleasure is gone, they go on stage, do their set and get off as quickly as possible. Their music is now a JOB and it should never be anything other than sheer enjoyment.

Good luck no matter what you decide.

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19 Oct 00 - 03:32 PM (#322721)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: GUEST,The Invisible Blazoona

I've been very fortunate to support my wife and three children with music. I'm 50 and have never had a "real" job. Why would I want one?

Then again, I'm not in the "creative songwriter" business. I'll play whatever they'll pay me to play. That is my craft. That is my profession.

However, if you do have some creative passions to express,you may want to consider the following quite,

"Life is the thing that took place while you were busy planning for the future"

I say go for it

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19 Oct 00 - 03:46 PM (#322735)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: WyoWoman

Bartholomew -- No, I don't mean I can't do anything else -- I've done a lot, including senior management for a fairly large concern -- but there's never been a time when I could pass something happening on the roadside, or see someone sitting on a park bench and not start writing the story in my head. I thought everyone had characters and plots and article outlines swirling around in their heads all the time. I didn't know that it's WRITERS who have that stuff and that there are people who never, ever think to themselves, "God, that'd be a GREAT story ..." or song, or whatever.

And yes I think the skills and creativity that make us writers and musicians and artists give us a very special edge over other people -- particularly in a world that is going through so many changes so quickly as ours is these days. BUT ... my point is that sometimes the money associated with writing and music and art is frighteningly scarce or slow in arriving. And now that I'm making my living strictly from writing, I remember what a constant hustle it is -- I've got to be writing proposals every week, even when I have daily deadlines on other articles and projects, just so I can keep projects coming in when these are finished and going out. It's rewarding and I'm happier than I've ever been. BUT ... if security is a greater need for you than creative satisfaction, you should do something other than try to write or make music or art for a living.

Which is what I meant by you should only do this if you can't do anything else. I'm competent as hell and can DO just about anything, but if I want to fulfill on the deepest and best in me -- and i do -- writing is what I HAVE to do, and, to a lesser degree, singing as well. (And in the best of all possible worlds, I think I would have been a singer, but ... my experience with that world was that it was even farther from the best of all possible worlds than the writing world is ...) I'm not a cynic, but I'm trying really hard to be a realist.

WW

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19 Oct 00 - 06:11 PM (#322869)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: Jim the Bart

Sorry I misinterpreted your statement, Wyo Woman. I have known quite a few people who turned to music because they really were either too lazy or too inept to do anything else. In most cases they weren't worth very much musically, either. Talent only gets you in the door. To stay in the profession you have to apply your whole self. Someone else here said it - you only get out what you're willing to put in. I would like to add - and not even all of that. Still, I can't imagine being alive without playing on some level.

I'm not sure if I've seen this distinction in this discussion yet - the difference between making music and making a living from music. To make a living from music involves selling it in some form; I have known people with marginal talent at making music, but with a great love for it, who have made money as agents, promoters, engineers, label reps., etc. I have also seen some great players and singers who have seriously lost their way by focusing on selling the product, rather than creating it. There are all kinds of traps you can fall into.

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19 Oct 00 - 08:10 PM (#322939)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: Callie

I tried to suppress the musical junkie in me for years. My parents did not consider it a viable option. I passed up the chance to study music even though I passed the audition. I decided to study poetry instead and be a poet (for some crazy reaon my parents thought this was ok). I spent my University days playing in bands instead of studying. I ended up in an serious arts admin job I was really unhappy in. The 'straightness' of the job wasn't conducive to playing in bands at night - or at least that's how it seemed to me. None of the bands worked out, the gigs stopped coming in. But somehow the bug never went away.

Several years, bands and projects later, things 'magically' fell into place. Except it's not luck - more like hard slog! I have a great part-time job that pays the bills AND is satisfying. All my other energy is devoted to 'the band', which is the best band I've ever been in. No artistic compromise necessary and we seem to be getting gigs at last. Not enough to live on, but enough to save up for an overseas trip next year. And other musical jobs have started to come my way, including a film composer who has offered me a combination of 'management' and creative work.

The best thing about it is that 'the band' is just so great - not meant egotistically. I mean more in the sense that we look forward to rehearsals, plot gigs, record, delight in the new arrangements and songs we come up with, laugh, have meals together and we SING together, often just for the hell of it.

All this to say that if music is what drives you, you will give in to it eventually. And if you have enough little successes and find the right collaborators, the fears become less of a priority!

Good luck, don't give up!

Callie

(Wyo: where can we read your work?)

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19 Oct 00 - 10:24 PM (#323075)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: hesperis

I'm more afraid of any 'career' that would take me away from the music...

I can't do enough music to satisfy myself right now anyway, add another career into the mix, and everything would fall to pieces.

Not that I've been treating music as my career. Health needs to come first.

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21 Oct 00 - 12:40 AM (#323791)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: Art Thieme

I have been very lucky !! I was able to make a living playing music while staying as far away from the music business as I could. Never had an agent that did me any good other than Urban Gateways in Chicago for school gigs. I did all of my other booking although I hated doing that. The phone rang often enough that I didn't need to sell myself hardly at all. And I had a loving spouse who went with me on the adventure. Yeah, we're pretty much broke now but that's 'cause I can't do what I used to do.

Michael, I'd say go for it ! It sure beats working. Stay flexible and avoid things which are dangerous to your health---like the music business. And be a solo. That way nobody ever quits your group.

Art Thieme

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21 Oct 00 - 09:30 AM (#323914)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: Margaret V

I love this thread, it's very helpful. Thank you, Michael Anthony, for starting it, and thanks to all for sharing wisdom and experience. Margaret, who has been wondering lately...

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21 Oct 00 - 11:30 AM (#323960)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: WyoWoman

Imagine this: An economy based on each of us doing what we're really good at and sharing our gifts with each other, contributing the deepest and best of ourselves, in a way that support us all.

Want to move to MY planet?

ww

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21 Oct 00 - 11:32 AM (#323962)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: Art Thieme

Those "health needs" that Hesperis aludes to are the only reason I cannot make a living with music now or in the forseeable future. Please, do have health insurance if at all possible. Having that insurance was a main reason why we were so poor even while making a living------but it sure came in handy when the stuff hit the fan. Yeah, it was messy, but at least we had a breeze in these days of global warming. ;>)

Art Thieme

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22 Oct 00 - 12:12 AM (#324304)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: MichaelAnthony

Thanks to all for posting their take, and keep em coming...I'm glad others can relate.

Art, thanks, and I'm with you on what you posted about the music business. It helps me to think in terms of doing music, yet keeping the "music business" at bay. If I'm worth my salt, who needs them? These are modern times, and I'm a modern thinker, and if there becomes a market for personal recordings, well, I'll know about it and just make em and sell em myself. I bet C. Berry would do that if he were from my generation.

I like C Berry, and have enjoyed his book and the documentary 60th birthday party film. Is party film one word?

I wish we had more of em...Is this a democrocy? Am I a socialist? Is it up to me to figure this out? Damn!

MichaelAnthony

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22 Oct 00 - 07:56 AM (#324398)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: Mooh

After a gig on Friday, several people stopped to chat with me and they assumed I worked at this full-time. When I mentioned a day job they were astounded that I couldn't ply my trade profitably enough. Though my day job is part-time and I suppose I could do music full-time if I could take the risk and afford a period to build up business.

Really, there's lots of variables. Geography, because I choose to live in a rural area with fewer playing opportunities and greater travel considerations (and winter driving). Age, I don't take heavy metal gigs anymore and don't want to boogie ALL night. Market, less demand for non-mainstream performance out here in the sticks. Venues, great little halls and museums and so on, but I can't stand a whole evening in a smokey bar anymore.

Though I teach some lessons, my day job's hours interfere alot as it eliminates the after school time slots. I'm really in a quandary, should I give up the safety net of the day job for more music or coast along as I am?

If I were to go full-time, my next quandary would be should I do performance full-time and quit the instruction.

Life with temptation and choices. Mooh.

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22 Oct 00 - 09:54 AM (#324435)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: John P

I've never had much fear of rejection. I've never had the idea that anyone should like my music except me and the perceptive few who get it. If they don't get it, I don't worry about them.

When it became time to decide whether or not to quit the day job and go full time -- I had actually given notice -- we started taking a long hard look at what we had and what we wanted. It is pretty obvious that people who play European traditional folk music are not going to get a major hit, unlike singer-songwriters who just might make it as a pop band. Most of the biggest names in trad music make less than I do at my modest paying job. The plan was to play a lot of weddings, tour a couple of times a year, and start getting as many students as possible. This is when we (my wife/music partner Anna and myself) realized that we don't really like playing at weddings, after three weeks or so on the road we're ready to go home, we don't really like teaching a lot, and we never wanted to do a four hour gig in a smoky tavern again. We had jobs we liked a lot. As she said, why quit doing day jobs we like in order to play music we don't like? Why not just go flip burgers?

So now we play two to four gigs a month, which provide a healthy addition to our incomes. I have a job with a musical instrument company, and they are very understanding of me taking time off to play music sometimes. One of the reasons they hired me is because I am a professional musician. Anna does freelance work out of a home office and can set her own schedule. We play the music we want to play, we turn down gigs that look like bad news, we get well paid for all our gigs, we produce our own CDs and no one but us has any say about how we do our music and what our CDs sound and look like.

I am fairly egotistical and still have the desire for every fan of our kind of music hear me play. But I am realistic enough to know that even if I was playing and touring full time that probably wouldn't happen. And I wouldn't have health insurance or retirement savings, and I would be playing lame arrangements of dweeby music as background music at weddings.

John

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22 Oct 00 - 09:59 AM (#324438)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: WyoWoman

Frankly, my unwillingness to spend my time in a smoky bar had a lot to do with my career choices. That's the joy of the mudcat concert -- people can be smoking up a regular inferno and my vocal chords and lungs remain gleefully oblivious...

ww

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22 Oct 00 - 01:13 PM (#324569)
Subject: RE: Breeze: honestly fearful of a musicareer
From: Mooh

John P, Lots of wisdom there, thanks. Mooh.

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