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08 Dec 00 - 04:18 AM (#353511) Subject: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Banjer I recently received this in e-mail. It was written by a Proffesor of Music at the Southwestern Oklahoma State University. Since it is a puportedly a firsthand account from someone in the field of music, I felt it was relevant to this forum. I did edit out all the various forwarded to addresses to make it easier to read. I am usually not given to mass mailings but I did feel this was important enough to share with as many as possible. Thanks for your indulgence! This is a very sad time of our lives. With today being Pearl Harbor Day, we remember such things. Forward if you wish. Bev Note: forwarded message attached. ===== __________________________________________________
Jon and I met Col. Bud Day, an internee at the Hanoi Hilton during the Jane Fonda visit to Vietnam. His hands still shake, he still suffers from night terrors, and his life is tormented today by her "good intentioned" visit to Hanoi. Please boycott Ladies Home Journal, and send this along to all you can. Thanks, The Halls .
I urge everyone to make your voice heard one way or another.
Write a letter, forward this e-mail, or simply don't buy this magazine!
If you dont remember her trash, maybe this will remind you. If you want to see more about this wonderful person, go to this website: http://www.moorej.org/jane/
The first address above is the address of the Ladies Home Journal (Who selected Jane for this honor.) Please stop this MADNESS!
Jane Fonda is being honored as one of the "100 Women of the Century." Unfortunately many have forgotten and still countless others have never known how Ms. Fonda betrayed not only the idea of our country but specific men who served and sacrificed during Vietnam. Part of my conviction comes from personal exposure to those who suffered her attentions. The first part of this is from an F-4E pilot. The pilot's name is Jerry Driscoll, a River Rat. In 1978, the former Commandant of the USAF Survival School was a POW in Ho Lo Prison-the "Hanoi Hilton." Dragged from a stinking cesspit of a cell, cleaned, fed, and dressed in clean PJs, he was ordered to describe for a visiting American "Peace Activist" the "lenient and humane treatment" he'd received. He spat at Ms. Fonda, was clubbed, and dragged away. During the subsequent beating, He fell forward upon the camp Commandant's feet, which sent that officer berserk. In '78, the AF Col. still suffered from double vision (which permanently ended his flying days) from the Vietnamese Col.'s frenzied application of a wooden baton. From 1983-85, Col. Larry Carrigan was in the 47FW/DO (F-4Es). He spent 6 years in the "Hilton"- the first three of which he was "missing in action". His wife lived on faith that he was still alive. His group, too, got the cleaned/fed/clothed routine in preparation for a "peace delegation" visit. They, however, had time and devised a plan to get word to the world that they still survived. Each man secreted a tiny piece of paper, with his SSN on it, in the palm of his hand. When paraded before Ms. Fonda and a cameraman, she walked the line, shaking each man's hand and asking little encouraging snippets like: "Aren't you sorry you bombed babies?" and "Are you grateful for the humane treatment from your benevolent captors?" Believing this HAD to be an act, they each palmed her their sliver of paper. She took them all without missing a beat. At the end of the line and once the camera stopped rolling, to the shocked disbelief of the POWs, she turned to the officer in charge.... and handed him the little pile of papers. Three men died from the subsequent beatings. Col.Carrigan was almost number four but he survived, which is the only reason we know about her actions that day. I was a civilian economic development advisor in Vietnam, and was captured by the North Vietnamese communists in South Vietnam in 1968, and held for over 5 years. I spent 27 months in solitary confinement, one year in a cage in Cambodia, and one year in a black box" in Hanoi. My North Vietnamese captors deliberately poisoned and murdered a female missionary, a nurse in a leprosarium in Ban me Thuot, South Vietnam, whom I buried in the jungle near the Cambodian border. At one time, I was weighing approximately 90 lbs. (My normal weight is 170 lbs.) We were Jane Fonda's "war criminals." When Jane Fonda was in Hanoi, I was asked by the camp communist political officer if I would be willing to meet with Jane Fonda. I said yes, for I would like to tell her about the real treatment we POWs were receiving, which was far different from the treatment purported by the North Vietnamese, and parroted by Jane Fonda, as"humane and lenient." Because of this, I spent three days on a rocky floor on my knees with outstretched arms with a large amount of steel placed on my hands, and beaten with a bamboo cane till my arms dipped. I had the opportunity to meet with Jane Fonda for a couple of hours after I was released. I asked her if she would be willing to debate me on TV. She did not answer me. This does not exemplify someone who should be honored as part of "100 Years of Great Women." Lest we forget..."100 years of great women" should never include a traitor whose hands are covered with the blood of so many patriots. There are few things I have strong visceral reactions to, but Hanoi Jane's participation in blatant treason, is one of them.
Please take the time to forward to as many people as you possibly can. It will eventually end up on her computer and she needs to know that we will never forget. Charles (Skip) Klingman Asst. Professor of Music Southwestern Oklahoma State University Weatherford, OK 73096 (580) 774-3219 FAX
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08 Dec 00 - 05:27 AM (#353528) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Michael in Swansea Bloody hell! |
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08 Dec 00 - 06:24 AM (#353546) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: GeorgeH Jane Fonda oppose an unjust and unnecessary war, and commited far greater evil than their opponents (in terms of the numbers it was visited on . . I'm not going to attempt any gradation of act of evil). This is not, in any way, to criticise who served in the war. All those who serve their country, and suffer in that service, deserve our respect and admiration. As do those who, following their conscience, either refuse the call to engage in acts of war, or actively oppose such acts. It saddens me to see Banjer opening this line of discussion at a point where the thread noting the aniversary of Pearl Harbour is revealing common ground between people of widely differing political etc. views. G. |
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08 Dec 00 - 06:28 AM (#353547) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: mkebenn I was agin' the war, but for my country's servicemen, not their doin'. Glad she's suffering in poverty now,,shit. MB |
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08 Dec 00 - 07:10 AM (#353558) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Greg F. Since it is a puportedly a firsthand account from someone in the field of music Oh, please!
I assume Banjer posted this garbage as an attempt at humor- though the joke is in admittedly poor taste. Then again, there are those who are still in vociferous denial about the Vietnam experience after more than a quarter century. |
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08 Dec 00 - 10:10 AM (#353641) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Kim C As Americans we do have the right to protest. But I have always wondered, what is the fine line between protest and treason? It wasn't just that she was protesting the war, but deliberately trying to crush the morale of the soldiers, and I can't abide that. These are people who have to follow orders and endure adverse living conditions and DIE for whatever purpose is at hand. |
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08 Dec 00 - 10:19 AM (#353648) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Mrrzy I am sure that Banjer was sincere. If he felt he had to relate it to music to post here, bully for him - I woulda just posted it. Yes, she opposed an unjust war. No, the way she did it ought not to be forgotten or considered OK. Speaks someone basically untouched by that war, you may consider I have no "right" to an opinion, but being mean to Banjer for feeling this stronly isn't the right response. If you feel the thread inappropriate, click Back and don't post. IM(NS)HO. |
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08 Dec 00 - 10:26 AM (#353654) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Wesley S Let me start off by saying that I have no idea if the story is true or false. But I will say that I've had this story sent to me several times by co-workers of mine. Even though I like these people as friends I'm not sure that I would believe anything they send me as an E-mail. These are the same people that also send me all kinds of urban legends. If they told me the sun was going to come up in the east I would feel compelled to go out and check.So I have some doubt as to the accuracy of this story - mostly because of where I've seen it before. I hope someone has a chance to look into this one. |
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08 Dec 00 - 10:39 AM (#353659) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Rick Fielding I have no idea what the motivation for starting this thread was, but from long experience here I know Banjer to be an honourable and respected Mudcat friend. (and remember, I'm a lefty) Can I introduce one personal opinion about that fine actress Jane, though? I've seen her interviewed so many times, and the passion she inspires is STRICTLY from her celebrity. There were many hugely commited protesters during that time who went to Hanoi. Some, when interviewed, during and after, presented articulate and well thought out historically based arguements. Jane Fonda was (and is) NOT A BRAIN SURGEON! She's super-wealthy, super-famous, and should not be taken more seriously than the most humble civilian. Yes, her celebrity focused attention on the issue, but I think she's taken all too seriously. There are lots of people you can get really mad at, if you feel that visits to Hanoi were traitorous, but Jane seems like a lightweight to me. Rick |
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08 Dec 00 - 10:56 AM (#353672) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: katlaughing Thank you, Rick. I am sure Banjer was sincere in posting this. He is a good and honourable friend. I agree with you about Fonda. kat |
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08 Dec 00 - 11:04 AM (#353679) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Midchuck "Barbarella" was Jane's finest hour. It's all been downhill from there. IMO. Peter. |
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08 Dec 00 - 01:00 PM (#353753) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Seth As a veteran of this particular conflict, I say anyone who was against the war, for whatever reason, lightweight or heavy, they were on my side. Anyone who was promotin'it,for whatever reason, was out to get my ass shot off. Robert McNamara said in his book that he knew that the war couldn't be won as early as 1966. He was someone who had the power to stop it, but he didn't. Apparently, there was some geo-political rationale for this. Of course, in the next nine years, 50,00 Americans and God knows how many Vietnamese died. Last thing I heard, he was walkin' around like a free man. Jane Fonda was kind of a bimbo actress who tried to do something real. Professionaly, she had nothing to gain and everything to lose by what she did. She went ahead and did it anyway. Made a lot of people mad. The war is over. If she has blood on her hands, it's a lot less than many of us. She moved on. The Vietnamese moved on. Time for all of us to move on. Seth from China |
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08 Dec 00 - 01:10 PM (#353761) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Troll Banjer, I have seen the informantion you have received. It is only partially accurate. I have read the statements of some of the officers involved. I'm sorry I don't recall the site right now but if I do I will post it. This should, in no way, be construed as approval of the actions of jane Fonda, Ramsey Clark and their companions. While they had the right to protest the war, the lengths to which they took that protest bordered on the treasonable in my opinion. They gave aid and comfort to an enemy who was -rightly or wrongly- killing their countrymen. There are those who lost fathers, brothers, sons, daughters or friends in Viet Nam. The right or wrong doesn't matter to them. Their loved one was dieing while Fonda was posing on an anti-aircraft gun in a photo-op in Hanoi. Those who took to the streets in protest knew that they could be gassed, beaten, and/or arrested but they went anyway. I respect them for it. They put themselves on the line. Jane Fonda and her friends went to Hanoi knowing that they ran little risk. Their money and influential friends would protect them from prosecution and that's what happened. She gets no respect in this country for what she did. She gets contempt and hatred. Greg. There are still people in England in "vociferous denial" about the firebombing of Dresden and thats been over fifty years ago. I am not surprised that you mentioned the tabloids since that seems to be where most of your information about America comes from. McGraths posts show at least some desire for knowledge while yours are mostly flame. I will not argue the justification or lack of same for the Viet Nam War. I will only say that it affected a lot of us deeply . You enter this arena at your own risk. troll I spoke to Skeptic before posting this. He is out of town for the weekend ( a CAMPING trip?) but will post on Monday if the thread is still alive. troll |
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08 Dec 00 - 01:23 PM (#353767) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Songster Bob Oh, please! This thing -- the "100 women" thing -- was first posted some THREE YEARS AGO, and it's been kicking around ever since. I don't even know which "100 women" poll or list was involved, or even if there was such a list. Trolls such as this inflame old passions to NO GOOD USE. What the hell did we live through the 60s and 70s for, to just bust each others' chops because of what well-intentioned (or even ill-intentioned) folks did 30 years ago? And they take our attention away from real problems and risks of the day, such as stealing elections. I sometimes wonder if some of this isn't intentional. I wonder if some of the Republican "horror" at Bill Clinton's extra-marital antics wasn't pure calculation, designed to make sure that the next Democratic candidate would distance himself as far as possible from one of the most savvy and successful politicians of the century. And it worked. We're being taken in, folks! Note that I say this now so I can say "I told you so!" in the unfortunately not-so-distant future. Bob Clayton
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08 Dec 00 - 01:38 PM (#353775) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Troll Seth. I'm glad you were able to move on. There are many who cannot. It's not that they don't want to, they CAN'T. troll |
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08 Dec 00 - 01:58 PM (#353789) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Rick Fielding I think it's "THE WAY" the Governments have "moved on" that may gall a lot of people on both sides of the issue. A friend of mine just returned from Vietnam, and describes it more like a Yankee dollar-hungry tourist mecca than anything else. Bring on MacDonald's (with the chicken heads) 'Course what else is new? Remember the kid in front of the tanks in Tiennamin Square? Governments don't. It's simply the rule of bucks. T'is why I'll NEVER have respect for authority, elected or appointed. I'll do just enough to stay outta jail...but the rest of my life will be how I decide it will be. My my, HEAVY morning, ain't it? Rick |
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08 Dec 00 - 02:03 PM (#353795) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Mrrzy Well, I feel better jumping in to defend Banjer when I really have no say about Vietnam, at least! |
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08 Dec 00 - 02:04 PM (#353796) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Alice Here is the Ladies Home Journal article listing all 100 women.click here to read Article I am no fan of Jane Fonda. Jane Fonda on the same list with Anne Frank and Marie Curie? Give me a break. Fonda is in the section of "Artists and Entertainers". Madonna is also included, with the description "Entertainer who is a master at marketing herself." They didn't seem to stretch very far to think of significant female artists and entertainers of the 20th century. |
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08 Dec 00 - 02:05 PM (#353801) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Bat Goddess BTW, I believe she apologised years ago, not for the protest, but for the way she went about it, and said her attempt was misguided. Last I heard, even the VFW and American Legion had forgiven her. Bat Goddess |
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08 Dec 00 - 02:42 PM (#353817) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Susan-Marie A couple of weeks ago I stumbled on to a web site of messages from special forces vets looking for former friends, officers, etc. One of the messages contained the story Banjer posted. At least a dozen people posted messages refuting that story, saying that although they had no love for Jane Fonda, these Vietnam vets knew for a fact that the story was fabricated. Sorry I can't find the web site again so you can read it for yourself.... |
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08 Dec 00 - 02:52 PM (#353821) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Midchuck Oh, they couldn't let them post it on the web if it weren't true!... Peter. |
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08 Dec 00 - 03:23 PM (#353832) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: GUEST,Big Mick "When will they ever learn?......when will they ever learn......" Those of you kicking Banjer need to do some research.......he is one of our finest Mudcatters, who happens to hold strong views.....based on experience.........with regard to this conflict. He and I don't necessarily agree on this issue, but he is a fine man and a great Mudcatter. To those from other countries that choose to use every opportunity you can to tell us poor colonials what is wrong with us......and further to tell us we don't really understand about "the troubles", or our motives, or whatever........I suggest that you follow your own advice. There are no easy answers with regard to this conflict, or this period in World History. We are in denial? Maybe. Any more so than the English Government is about the north of Ireland? I don't think so. And Dresden has already been mentioned. How about Japan and the Korean "comfort women"? Aussies and the Aboriginals? Shall we go on? The point is ..............give it a break, willya? Jane Fonda was, during that time, the same as many of us. She was faced with a situation that was beyond her frame of reference. There we were, raised by WWII vets, on a steady diet of 50's era patriotism and jingoism, with the implicit understanding that we had to save the world if called upon. Our parents taught us that our job was to preserve and export "the American Way of life" to the great unwashed. We were to help "those people" so that, God Bless 'Em, they could be like us. Then comes the conflict and it is nothing like what we had been raised for. No clear cut issue, no Normandy Beachhead, no Gold Star Mom's, no parades coming home, no exit strategy..........and folks calling us baby killers, etc. Some folks sucked it up and went off, even if they had reservations. Some folks resisted. Some left the country. The point is everyone made decisions. Do I like what Fonda did? No, in fact I hate the actions she took, even if I agreed that we needed to get out. But Jane Fonda, to me, was a tool. She was being used. One of the things that old age, and a lifetime spent in several "movements" has taught me is that whether you are on the right, or on the left, there is always some messiah like figure who has an agenda. They have become easy for me to spot, usually by there rhetoric. They are the ones who use "for the good of the cause" to justify any type of action that needs to be done in their opinion. I have learned that, as followers, we have the greatest obligation of all. Because we are the ones to listen to this and make a judgement if the action is indeed "for the good of the cause" or if it is for the good of the messiah like person. We choose who to follow. In the first half of the twentieth century there were two leaders. Both had charisma. Both could cause masses of people to do their bidding by simply suggesting that it be done for the common good. Both suffered for their positions. One was named Hitler, and the other was named Ghandi. I guess the point of this ramble is to say to Banjer........Brother, it is time to let it go. So much pain.......let it go. She was a kid herself, and being manipulated. And I think she knows it. And I guess I would say to those that would villify Banjer and the U.S. in general.......Brothers and Sisters, let it go. Too much pain..........let it go. Our nation, in the relative age of the world, is just a kid. We have done much good.....and much bad........but our heart is right, we are your cousins......and this place(the Internet and the Mudcat) makes us close. Let's cut the finger pointing bullshit, and just examine the history of the world we live in, for the lessons it has to teach. And continue to strive for, even if unattainable, peace, and understanding. The children of this place deserve that we act so. Big Mick |
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08 Dec 00 - 04:18 PM (#353858) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Greg F. Apologies- I did not and do not mean to kick Banjer personally, but to condemn posting and perpetuating this sort of tabloid crap before at least doing some rudimentary reality checking. There's more than enough on-line garbage without adding to the pile. Troll old bud, I'm born & raised in the good old US of A, tho why my national origin should matter to you at all is anyone's guess. I'm more than old enough to remember Viet Nam first hand. And lets not get into a pissing contest about "who reads more newspapers", OK? Or who has a greater background in & knowledge of American history. You'd probably lose. "You enter this arena at your own risk."??? What the hell's that? Some sort of schoolyard threat? Jesus. And Jane Fonda gets MY respect and that of many others for a deal- if not all- of what she did. Best, Greg |
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08 Dec 00 - 06:03 PM (#353908) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Troll Mick, thanks for trying to point out that Jane Fonda was used. She was but she was a willing participant in giving aid and comfort to those who were killing American servicemen and women. She had a right to protest but not to do what she did. So she apologized. I'm sure that is a real comfort to the families of the dead. I cannot forgive her nor can I forget the men and women on both sides who died . The actions of she and her fellows may very well have prolonged the war by giving Hanoi a potent propoganda devise-famous Americans protesting the war IN HANOI! With photos. And then She went back to Beverly Hills and the round of chic parties that followed. She and her apologists have my contempt for what it's worth.Let those who wish to respect her do so. It's their right. But they must think that all the Americans who have died to protect that right were real fools. troll |
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08 Dec 00 - 06:11 PM (#353910) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: mousethief Boy, Troll, remind me never to get on your bad side. What did that guy from Nazareth say? "If you do not forgive others, neither will your heavenly father forgive you..."? Alex |
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08 Dec 00 - 06:30 PM (#353918) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Margo This "Urban Legend" Site says that this particular email that is circulating mixes fact with fiction.... here's the url http://urbanlegends.about.com/science/urbanlegends/library/weekly/aa110399.htm. I find this site comes in handy, Margo |
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08 Dec 00 - 06:50 PM (#353929) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: McGrath of Harlow Big Mick's right.Let it go.
Terrible things are done in war, by both sides. Collectively the Vietnamese suffered far far more than the Americans, and it's still going on today with mines going off, and children being born damaged by Agent Orange.
It appears that Vietnamese people have shown that they are willing to turn away from vengeance and recriminmation. And so have many many Americans, including especially many veterans who have been back to visit or to work there, and help heal the wounds.
All big countries have done things like that, and at the time it seems like a good idea, and good people get wasted in the process. Some good people did bad things. Good GIs, good Viet Cong, good War Resisters. And there were good reasons for it, mixed in with not so good reasons.
Stirring it over in a spirit of vengeance doesn't help. Nor does turning away and forgetting. Trying to understand what happened and why it all happened as part of a process of reconciliation, that makes sense. |
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08 Dec 00 - 06:54 PM (#353932) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Banjer Very good...If nothing else my posting of the "garbage" e-mail has opened a discussion. The main reason I put it here is because of the author. He claims to be a proffessor of music. One of us, in a manner of speaking. He also included a fax number that could be used if one were inclined to contact him and validate this story. My reason for posting it was not to start a large political debate, although maybe it would take our mind off our election for a while. ;-) I thank all those who have responded with their opinions, whether pro or con, for as those who have been around this cybercommunity for a while know, all opinions are respected and while some of us may tend to disagree, we do so amicably. I feel no animosity towards any one who does not share my opinions. Instead I respect them even that much more for standing up for what THEY feel is right. |
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08 Dec 00 - 07:29 PM (#353963) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Barry Finn Thanks Banjer I'm really pleased that you find this something of interest & that you're glad it got some healthy discussion about it going. My brother probably would think it grand too had he been left with something to think with instead of something to drink with. I hated this war for for my myself, my brother, my family, my friend (mostly the ones that are still there in body or souly) & for my country & dispised the powers that had us there & kept us there. You're right some can't let it go & some still think that God was on our side had we had more that cared more for our soldiers than our glory maybe less would've been left out in the field. Earl's brother Barry |
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08 Dec 00 - 07:34 PM (#353965) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Dave Wynn I dunno about the veracity of the Jane Fonda thing...Or the way we Brits should give Ireland back to the Irish (when you Americans give America back to the native American perhaps)But I sure as shit know that if Barbarella is Jane Fonda's finest hour then I rate it as crap with tit's and it isn't an Oscar performance....!! I think we should let Fonda do her slimming thing and welcome. Spot. |
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08 Dec 00 - 07:34 PM (#353966) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Troll Alex. Perhaps your God does not condone vengance. Mine does. troll |
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08 Dec 00 - 08:48 PM (#353986) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: McGrath of Harlow "Vengeance is mine" says the lord - makes sense; let it go. "Eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth" and everyone ends up blind and toothless. (And in any case America is way way ahead of Vietnam on the eye and tooth score.)
"Brits should give Ireland back to the Irish" - Spot, it's been Irish all the time. There's a quarrel between two lots of Irish, and the English have stirred it from time to time, and poked their nose in from time to time, and even been reluctantly pulled into it from time to time. And so have other people sometimes. But it's always an Irish quarrel, and it'll be settled sooner or later between the Irish. |
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08 Dec 00 - 10:37 PM (#354008) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: catspaw49 There are times when being off the 'Cat for awhile and then returning is cathartic.......sometimes not. I gotta' write that play............... Almost two years ago in another VietNam thread, we began to see the broad experiences of the times that were living right here at the 'Cat. From the words of myself and others, there is a cross section of experiences, all deeply felt, that encompasses the American experience of VietNam. More players have entered the scene since and many of us have repeatedly told our stories. Now, with most of us at the half-century mark age range, we have come together in a strange feeling of companionship. Some are still bitter in many ways, but most are mellowed and saddened and want to remember lest others forget. Some are still in that place, that time, and can never move on because of it. Some have moved on and wish only to let it become history. Most are somewhere in between in a sort of no-man's land because those times and that war colored our lives in a way we cannot escape. Most of us here came from essentially middle class, middle America, the offspring of parents who had fought and worked hard in the cause of a clearly defined war. We watched John Wayne in "Sands of Iwo Jima" and listened to the stories of the adults who had been there. We learned of heroes and poltroons and we believed in the sacrifices made in the name of freedom. One day we began to hear of a place where we too would be tested and honored. At 18 or so we were the product of Davy Crockett and Ira Hayes. But it was a different time, the world had changed, the news told of strange things which didn't mesh with what we thought we knew. Realizations came at different times and in different ways to different people, and suddenly, we were no longer kids. We were forced to become adults and not always thinking ones. No matter where you stood, you were still a pawn in someone's game and the damned thing was, you were still trying to figure out the squares on the board. And what was the problem with those damn squares anyway? They were supposed to be black or white weren't they? They used to be! Now, somehow they had all changed to various and varying shades of gray. We moved about as best we could and by the best lights we could muster. And so it was............... Ten people sit on a blackened stage. Above and behind them play the classic home movie clips of a 50's childhood. As the movies play, a single spot lights each as they tell a similar story that melds together almost as one so you can see these are all the same folks, from the same places, from the same history, in the same time. The movie carries on to teen clips and the story begins to unfold. Each of the ten begins to alternately tell their tale in that time. The movie shows clips of the late 60's, the war in both heroic and tragic scenes, the protests back home.....an entire panorama of the times as each story unfolds. Each of stories comes from the words written here and the characters on stage include soldiers, male and female, who came into the war with different ideas and out of the war with varying outcomes, a man who didn't have to go because of the draft lottery and has mixed emotions, a man who went to jail for refusing induction, a girlfriend left behind.........Ten stories that show well the result. And ten people now grown old who are willing to let it go, yet they cannot forget.........bonded forever from the times in which they lived. Banjer, my fine friend, thank you for the posting. Good or bad or true or false of somewhere in between.....it matters not a whit. Sometimes we all just have to talk about it.......lest others forget. Spaw |
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08 Dec 00 - 11:00 PM (#354012) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Sorcha Oh Pat, you made me cry again, you old curmudgeon, you. You better write that play........even if it hurts. It all still does, even if "we" have moved on and "let it go".
I was sitting here, reading this, and thinking of the 2nd Great War......and how things were written in stone, then, in our father's times.....and how my father so loved the Japanese culture and people.....even their Bushido, because bushido has a real reason behind it....written in stone, huh? The only thing my dad ever really wanted that he didn't get to do was to go back to Japan, and see Kyoto, and find out if "Mr. Bear" (whoever he was.........?) was still alive.
War is hell, my friends, on all sides, and I only hope none of our children ever have to go there........
VietNam was the watershed of most of our lives. Sad, but true. All of us have, really, only one story to tell; for most of us over 40, that story is somehow related to VietNam. In another 50 years or less, those of us who personally experienced the pain will be gone, just like the veterans of Germany, Japan, Africa, France and Italy are gone now.
All that will be left is stories, so let us tell our stories as best as we know how. Lest We Forget.....what we cannot remember, we are doomed to repeat.
(My question: How can a generation remember what they did not experience? Thus, the sad cycle....)
With all due Respect for everyone on every side..... |
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09 Dec 00 - 12:30 AM (#354031) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: katlaughing Sorcha is right, Spaw, write the play, darlin'... and, thanks Banj for coming back. Love and respect to you all... luvyakat |
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10 Dec 00 - 01:47 AM (#354318) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Troll 'Spaw, thank you.Your eloquence expressed things that I cannot. I stand in your debt. troll |
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10 Dec 00 - 01:42 PM (#354498) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: GUEST I was going to comment on the Jane Fonda e-mail, but this forum always amazes me because of the direction in which things go. Like Troll when I got to the Catspaw statement, I realized how eloquent he can be. I usually see his posts as light joking or sarcasm, but he states well the feelings of many. Thank you Mudcat for surprising and enlightening me once again. Regards, Tom |
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10 Dec 00 - 02:19 PM (#354515) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Rick Fielding The eloquence of Catspaw, Big Mick, Peter T. B.Seed and a few others are what hooked me into Mudcat in the first place. I'd have been happy to look in occasionally for the music content, but would never have opened myself, my thoughts, beliefs and insecurities to general scrutiny without the postings of those folks. Still think that "Top 10 (or top 100) lists" are completely bogus though. A REAL "top 100" list would never sell magazines, 'cause there'd be very few celebrities (political or entertainment) on it. Bet there'd be a lot of small town Docs, pro-active clergy, brave soldiers, housewives/mothers, and activists without the desire to be famous. Rick |
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10 Dec 00 - 02:37 PM (#354521) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: GUEST,JTT This is one of the internet's most famous hoaxes, up there with Women of Afghanistan. They do nothing but gobble up bandwidth. If you get some heartrending email, the first place to go is www.urbanlegends.com or the About.com urban legends site, which in this case brings up http://urbanlegends.miningco.com/science/urbanlegends/library/weekly/aa110399.htm (which says that the Fonda email "mixes fact and fiction"). If the heartrending email is about a virus, the first place to go is www.symantec.com where you look up the hoax page. Now, back to Hanoi Jane. Before the days of the internet the only source of information I had was the mammy, and she gave me this rule: if someone tells you a rumour, look first at their motivation for spreading the rumour, and second at its likelihood. It's a rule that's always worked for me.
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10 Dec 00 - 02:50 PM (#354528) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: katlaughing While the email petition for Women in Afghanistan may be old and out of date, the situation there has nothing to do with hoaxes, JTT. They are living in desperate and lethal times and anyone who is aware of it shoudl be petitioning their respective governments to do something about it. |
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10 Dec 00 - 03:51 PM (#354550) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: McGrath of Harlow kat's right there. We know a family a few of whom made it out of Afghanistan. The Taliban are not a hoax, unfortunately. |
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10 Dec 00 - 05:01 PM (#354573) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Banjer JTT's message says that the Fonda e-mail "mixes fact and fiction". Even if what the author says is half true, that is bad enough, isn't it? If just one man lost his life due to her irresponsible actions, I would say that was one too many! |
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10 Dec 00 - 05:16 PM (#354577) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Barry Finn If the protesting had started sooner many more would've come home sooner, now please drop this in light of those who can't come home for the holidays. Earl's brother Barry |
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10 Dec 00 - 06:21 PM (#354611) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: McGrath of Harlow If something is "half true and half fiction", that means you can't rely on any part of it as being true. You can't just halve any numbers contained, and take the lower figure as true.
I bought two lottery tickets the other day, and I won six million pounds.
Actually that's only half true.
So does that mean I bought one lottery ticket and won three million pounds? Sadly, no... |
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10 Dec 00 - 09:24 PM (#354669) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Joe Offer You'll find Fonda's speech from Vietnam here (click). That much of the e-mail is true, and I suppose it did have tremendous propaganda value for the Communists. There is no credible evidence that Fonda did anything that made conditions worse for U.S. prisoners of war. The big fabrication is the bit about the slips of paper with the Social Security numbers (SSN). Perhaps the propaganda shortened the war, or hastened the U.S. pullout - if that's the case, maybe her visit saved American lives. This all happened a long time ago. I can't really see the value of letting anti-Fonda hatred seethe for decades. It's hard to understand why Fonda still receives a level of disdain far greater than that directed at Nixon and LBJ. Could it be misogyny? Could it be that the Fonda-haters are the same ones who hate Hillary Clinton so intensely? -Joe Offer- |
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10 Dec 00 - 09:48 PM (#354682) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Midchuck It's hard to understand why Fonda still receives a level of disdain far greater than that directed at Nixon and LBJ. Could it be misogyny? I don't think so. I think it's the feeling that a person with no money and no connections, who did the same thing she did, might very well have stood trial for treason. And the hypocrisy of her becoming so completely an establisment figure in later life (although that's a fairly standard pattern - who was it said "I could never trust a man who was not a Socialist before he was twenty, or who was a Socialist after he was twenty," or something to that effect?) But that's just my personal take on it. Peter. |
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10 Dec 00 - 11:16 PM (#354721) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Big Mick "Peace will come, Let it begin with me." Thanks, Spaw. You know I love you, my friend. Mick |
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10 Dec 00 - 11:24 PM (#354726) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Seth Well, as John Prine put so eloquently " You forgive me and I'll forgive you, we'll all forgive each other till we all turn blue..." There's nobody on any part of this bloody mess who doesn't need it. I need to revise my statement about Jane Fonda. She made some pretty good movies. "Klute" is worth renting at your local video store I went to a talk that she gave with Tom Hayden at UC Berkeley sometime in the early 70's. I don't remember what they said other than it had to with the CHristmas bombing of Hanoi in 1972?. Tom Hayden is a pretty unpretentious guy( at least he was then). He walked to the front of the stage, sat on the steps. and spoke to the people in the first few rows. He was theoretical, and serious. After he finished talking, there was a pause, Jane eentered from the back of the stage, did what can only be called a star turn, smiled her radiant smile, and started her talk as she walked to the front of the stage. OF course, by the time she got there, she had the whole audience. Her talk was full of passion. I came away thinking that here was an actor, first, and a political activist second or even third. It wouldn't surprise me at all if the Vietnamese used her or duped her one way or another, why wouldn't they try to? I believe that she tried to use what celebrity she had to make difference, it didn't turn out quite how she had wanted but that was true for most of us whatever side we were on, but she was a very popular actor at the time, so sought and got more attention than other people who might have been more politically savvy. I forgive 'em all. When that magazine publishes its list of "100 greatest War Criminals", I hope they reserve a spot for McNamara, Bundy, Rostow, and others of that ilk, who did the careful analysis that demonstrated to themselves that the war could not be won by the U.S., yet kept it going for many more years. If your brother, husband, father or son had to die for that.if they were Vietnamese or American, what can you call it but a bloody. miserable waste of life. time and money. Still workin' on it here in China Seth |
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11 Dec 00 - 09:37 AM (#354879) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Jeri My personal feeling is forgiveness isn't about the person being forgiven - especially when you never met them and probably never will. It's about living with yourself. I've met miserable, bitter people who have built their lives on hate and anger, on grudges and vengence. Anger sometimes leads to action, when there's action possible. When there isn't, anger festers. As far as what Fonda did - yeah, I think if had been John Doe, he would have been drawn and quartered. I don't think that punishment borne solely out of a need for revenge is right. I don't have much sympathy for people who've made a hallowed shrine for anger in their hearts. They choose their own path, and no one but themselves is responsible. What I choose to remember is love. My friend Big Mick, who made it home, forever changed, but holding onto love. My friend Barry, who remembers his brother Earl, and remembers that love. These are the sort of people I respect. So, in the midst of this discussion on the worthiness of vendettas, here's a toast to love...lest we forget. |
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11 Dec 00 - 10:17 AM (#354904) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Troll " A hallowed shrine"? Anger is not a thing that is cherished, that brought out and polished and replenished from time to time. Fonda is a focus for the sorrow, the anguish and the horror; of seeing the life of someone who saved your life snuffed out as his head explodes beside you; of having a little kid run up and hand your buddy a live grenade; of being spit on and called a baby killer. These things aren't your life but they are part of your life.You accept them as facts of life and, for the most part, go on about your business. They are not constantly on your mind, they just ARE. But then something reminds you and, just for an instant, it's all there in glorous, living color. And you deal with it as best you can. And if that way is to express the anger that you feel, well, it's better than drinking yourself into insensibility, or picking a fight with your wife. You bring it out, talk about it and get your life back under control so you can go on with it. I doubt that Mick and Barry have NO anger. They simply know, as I know, that anger cannot rule their lives. That doesn't mean they don't FEEL the anger sometimes. I'm sure that they, like most of us, don't want sympathy. We can find that in the dictionary Between "shit" and "syphilis". troll |
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11 Dec 00 - 11:18 AM (#354955) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Jeri Troll, I do believe there are some people who treat the anger as something they value above all else. Yes, it is part of being human, but some do let it rule their lives. Some, as you said, use Fonda as a focus. People hold her responsible for all the horrors they endured, because she's become a symbol, not a real person anymore. I can't quite see why she's become a symbol of all the war time horrors you mentioned, though. Anti-war horrors I can understand if not agree with. I can even see how Fonda could be associated with torture done by others, even if she wasn't the cause. But I don't believe in placing blame for everything on individuals unless they actually were responsible for everything. There are opposites to the people who dwell on the past. They're the ones who say things like "It was a WAR, dammit! There's always killing and death and horror in a war! Tell all those whiny people to just get over it - I did. I don't want to hear about it anymore!" I've met a few of those, too. The ones who never admit it was anything more than a job they did. I suspect many of them may have the horrors buried under so many layers of bravado that the anger comes out in other ways. There are all sorts of people in between. People who feel anger, sadness and fear when they remember. People who, as you said "bring it out, talk about it and get your life back under control so you can go on with it." But they go on with it. If they do venture into that dark place, they may look for real reasons and causes for what they went through and now feel, Finding a symbol to punish in one's mind is another way of not having to think about real and complicated causes. |
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11 Dec 00 - 12:22 PM (#354990) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: McGrath of Harlow "I think it's the feeling that a person with no money and no connections, who did the same thing she did, might very well have stood trial for treason."
Jane Fonda was in no way responsible for any decision not to put her on trial. It would have been made by the pro-war authorities, trying to damp down opposition, and wary of what would have been a show trial with lots of publicity.
There was a real possibility they might have decided the other way. And bigger stars than Jane Fonda had had their careers destroyed not that many years previously, for being politically out-of-step. |
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11 Dec 00 - 12:26 PM (#354993) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Troll I blame Jane Fonda and her companions for what they did. To my mind they did not receive the punishment they deserved for their treason. That is all. Fonda is not merely a symbol. She actively supported those who were killing American men and women and, in the opinion of some military historians, helped to prolong the war. She is only one of many who did this. Some were politicians like McNamara who let it go on for self-serving goals. The knowledge that these people are walking around free and enjoying life while so many are permanently scared by what they did opens the wounds again. And the real and complicated causes have to be examined one more time. troll |
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11 Dec 00 - 01:30 PM (#355049) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Troll McG As I said in an earlier post, Jane Fonda risked nothing. The trip was set up by Ramsey Clark who had ben Atourney General under Lyndon Johnson. He was certainly savvy enough to research the legality of the trip before he placed himself in jeapordy of being tried for treason, regardless fo his anti-war sentiments. They KNEW they were safe before they ever left the US. What they did was not legally treason because there was no formal declaration of war. Had there been, let me assure you that the trip would never have happened. In wartime such people are executed; witness Lord Haw-haw and Tokyo Rose. Fondas career was not endangered as it would have been in the McCarthy era. The mood of the country was much diferent then and red baiting was a popular sport among the populance; a popular TV show was "I Was A Communist For The FBI". I doubt that would have flown in the early 70's. troll |
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11 Dec 00 - 01:36 PM (#355057) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: mousethief Troll, I hope as you stew in your anger and vengeance that you enjoy the gravy. Life's too short in my opinion to spend any energy on anger about something that happened 40 years ago and that at any rate can't be changed now. You are of course free to believe otherwise. I don't know which god you worship. The one I worship says that vengeance belongs to Him and not to us humans. The one I worship says to love your enemies and forgive those who do you wrong. So I shall try to do this (realizing I do it poorly, of course). You have to worship your god; I can't expect you to worship mine. Have a day. Alex |
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11 Dec 00 - 02:16 PM (#355090) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Midchuck Actually, Troll's got a good point. The executive branch, and the military, chose to fight a war without any declaration of war, because, first, who would they have declared war on? North Vietnam? As I recall, they denied its existence as a sovereign nation. And, second, they weren't sure they could get a declaration of war out of Congress. So had no basis for a charge of treason, if they wanted to bring one. They kind of painted themselves into a corner. One of many that they painted themselves into in that period. Peter. |
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11 Dec 00 - 02:41 PM (#355107) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: McGrath of Harlow "love your enemies and forgive those who do you wrong."
But what is sometimes even harder is to forgive those to whom you have done wrong. |
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11 Dec 00 - 05:49 PM (#355241) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Barry Finn My anger Troll is for those that keep this war alive, now & then. I lost a brother whom I hardly knew to begin with but upon his return there was no hope of getting to him. This past Thanksgiving he was gonna spend with the rest of the family he never makes it, this Christmas well try to have him over, he'll try but just like all the other times in the last minutes he'll get lost some where. I believe he dwells with his dead & will stay there till he truely gone. He was a seal & what his job was, was far more illegal that the war & anything that Hollywood could've sent there. His job continued right up to mining the harbors of South America, I wish Jane could've helped, no else did, not even after the end, they just kept it going from one country to the next. The Citzens In Action (CIA) that would accomany him & his mates could only dream up the actions that they were sent on, so please don't talk to me of anger or Jane, the real criminals became very wealthy, very private & very powerful & tripe like this takes the focus & blame from those that rightfully should be imprisoned. Goodnight |
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12 Dec 00 - 12:17 AM (#355421) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Troll Alex, you really con't understand do you? My anger is toward all those who started and continued that war. I don't WANT to forget because if I do then my friends will be forgotten and they deserve some memorial other than that black slab in Washington. The anger comes when people try to excuse Fonda and Kennedy and Johnson and McNamara and the rest. Yes, it happened 40 years ago and no, I can't change it now . Thank you for your permission to remember and feel anger. As for the rest of your post, Uriah Heep couldn't have said it better. Barry, I'm sorry you feel you have lost your brother. Men are not drafted or assigned to the SEALs, they volunteer and have to WANT to be there. I was in the Amphibs and I've worked with them all: SEALs, UDT, Marine Recon, Rangers, it takes a special breed to do those jobs, they have to have something going in that makes them different. I've only known a few who got out whole. I can't remember any of it without remembering all of it. I'd like to see all of them pay for what they did. But that won't happed in my lifetime. Maybe history will sentence them as they deserve but if we who were there don't keep our memories alive to pass on, then the history books will only tell the story of the powerful moneyed men. So although Jane Fonda is more a figurehead than anything else, she serves as a symbol of ALL the others, the Westmorelands and the rest.As we remember her, we remember them. So it's not tripe Barry. It's a part of history; a rallying cry like "Remember the Maine", of the photo of the flag raising on Iwo Jima or the dead at Kent State. You have your anger, I have mine. Our reasons are not so far apart. troll |
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12 Dec 00 - 12:41 AM (#355432) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: mg Vengance might belong to the Lord but also so should smarmy righteousness. and for those who were in the war or lost loved ones or at least are respectful, here is a web site to hopefully put you in the Christmas spirit...hope it doesn't bring up bad memories... http://grunt.space.swri.edu/xmastime.htm mg |
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12 Dec 00 - 12:48 PM (#355765) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: DougR I haven't contributed to this thread for one reason only. I was not in Vietnam, and I don't believe anyone who was not there, participated in the war, and suffered from it, can truly understand how a Vietnam veteran feels. I saw how Troll was getting trounced, and decided to jump in. I won't post further on this subject, however. It's getting too personal for my liking. I do join the few of you who view Fonda as a traitor to her country. How she could do what she did with so many of her fellow countrymen dying as she did it, should give her nightmares (but I wouldn't bet on it.) DougR |
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12 Dec 00 - 01:33 PM (#355796) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: GUEST,Stackley Hey, Doug, you want a real traitor to his country who should give YOU nightmares & who is responsible in fact, not fancy, for tens upon tens of thousands dead men, women, and children, try Henry Kissinger. Your contempt & hatred is misdirected. Cheers. |
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12 Dec 00 - 01:37 PM (#355808) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: mousethief Troll, you really don't get it, do you? YOu can remember and preach foreign policy which avoids "another VietNam" without being wrapped up in pointless anger and bitterness. Well, let me rephrase that. Many people have found a way to do this. If you cannot, I am very, very sorry. Alex |
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12 Dec 00 - 01:54 PM (#355832) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: McGrath of Harlow Is it unfair to expect that Americans would see the tragedy of Vietnam in the way the rest of the world does? I mean, with the central focus being on what happened to the people of Vietnam, and is still happening today, rather than on what happened to the far smaller number of Americans who suffered and continue to suffer?
And that doesn't mean that I'm saying that what happened to the Americans didn't matter and doesn't matter. All suffering is one by one and family by family, and it doesn't matter whether they are Vietnamese or American.
But at times I get the feeling as if people see Vietnam as a struggle between two lots of Americans who disagreed about it, with the Vietnamese off in the distance forgotten. And I see them in the foreground, with the Americans off in the distance. |
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12 Dec 00 - 01:59 PM (#355837) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: NH Dave Troll, if you want to hate the folks that started the Viet Nam, as Pogo(a cartoon character in US newspapers some time back) said, "We has met the enemy and he is us." We, the OSS, forerunner of the CIA, armed the Veitnamese guerilla groups during WWII, promising that if they fought with/for us against the Japanese, we'd support their eventual bids for independence from the French colonists after the war.
After the war, we were trying to keep a peace with the French - we lost - as well as assure the flow of natural rubber, much of which was tapped in Vietnamese plantations, so in the name of political expediency, we rolled over on the Vietnamese people who had helped us, during the war. I might add we treated large numbers of the mountain tribes like the Hmong who formed irregular fighting forces during the Viet Nam War very similarly, after the war began to wind down and it became apparent that the South Vietnamese would not be able to hold.
With lots of help from many communist countries, the Viet Mihn tossed the French out of their country following their disaster at Dien Bien Phu - a battle definately staged at a dificult place to hold. We had a similar battle forced upon us at Khe Sahn, but close air support and resupply carried the day.
IMHO, Jane Fonda, daughter of a good movie actor, never rose to the position that her background might have supported/warranted. She was an adequate movie star, but never great, not one to be mentioned in the same breath with Bette Davis, Barbara Stanwyk, or, say, Lauren Bacall, who in similar circumstances went to Washington with her husband to appear before the House Unamerican Activities Committee in support of many persecuted movie stars and writers.
This whole issue has not been in vain as Fonda still has her picture prominently displayed on the backsplash of the urinals of countless American Legion and VFW halls, more puhblicity/notoriety than her films could ever have given her.
Dave |
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12 Dec 00 - 02:20 PM (#355854) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Ebbie One thought keeps recurring to me: In each country are peope cursing other people. I do not believe that US hands are lily white... Ebbie |
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12 Dec 00 - 02:40 PM (#355862) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: GUEST,Big Mick Troll, a little info, if you don't mind. You indicated that you served in one of the amphib units. Would you mind sharing which one? And whether it was out of Coronado, Little Creek, or one of the other bases? I am just curious. The problem I have with most of this conversation is the premise that the whole thing is constructed on. When I hear guys like troll, still so angry after all this time, it tells me that they haven't dealt with the experience. They haven't learned its lessons and then used to to move to a higher place. Very dangerous. It seems to me, as one who experienced much of this tragedy and participated in it, that the only way to make sense of it all is to view it from a distant place. Distant as in remove yourself from it, roll it around, smell it, and compare it to what has gone before. Do this and you find that Fonda was a passionate, ill informed young woman who believed fervently that what she was doing served a larger good. Many of us were rejecting many of the values and institutions of the day. Try to remember when you were that age, remember the things you believed that today you know you were a bit off base on, and then imagine what you would have done if you had the type of forum that Fonda had by virtue of family and profession. I reject her actions based on being a warrior in that conflict, but I understand that she believed that she was ending the war. If you will distance yourself, and then factor in the information on the Viet Minh that friend NH Dave (great post, Dave!!) supplied us, you will understand how many people found Ho Chi Minh and his troops to be heroic in their attempts to liberate their country. This is why many of us reject attempts to villify them. And when you also factor in McGrath's comments (another great post, if one thinks it through.) with regard to how Americans view it as compared to how the world views it, then you have the chance to grow beyond this kind of nonsensical discussion of how one misguided, naieve, and ill informed child of privilege pissed off so many people. I guess what I am asking, especially to friend Troll, is that you attempt to use these experiences and these times, and this anger to grow and become more perfect. One never can attain the perfection, but one must never cease to attempt to attain it. If you have allowed yourself to stew in this anger for this long, I wonder how much else you are allowing to seethe within. Big Mick |
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12 Dec 00 - 05:44 PM (#355989) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Troll Mick,, I was stationed in Little Creek but the ship I was on was docked at Norfolk. Thanks for the post and the insight .Alex, I am not stewing in anger and bitterness. It is my task to poke holes in the smug, comfortable cocoons that people have built so they don't have to look at things like Viet Nam up close. If I release the anger it allows me to be more passionate about what I have to say. I control it . It does not control me. If you let anger control you, you are less effective And let me say this now. If you don't like what I'm saying, don't read it. This goes for anyone out there. When names like Fonda, McNamara, Kissenger, Nixon, Kennedy, Johnson, Clark and others come up with reference to Viet Nam, I WILL speak. The effect of their actions on ordinary GI's in that war must not be glossed over and shoved into some dark corner to be forgotten. My conscience and sense of duty to the dead of BOTH sides demands it. When I went in the Navy in 63, I supported what I thought we were doing. By the time I got out I wasn't so sure. In time I came to oppose how our Government was prosecuting the war although I still believed in the stated objectives for some time to come. But I NEVER wavered in my support of the guys on the ground, and I did what I could to help those who had a hard time when they came back to the World. I'm still helping some of them. Protesting the actions of the Government is one thing. Harassing returning combat veterans is quite another story. I want everyone to know what happened and why people like Jane Fonda are held in such contempt in the hope that that kind of "protest" will never happen again. Mick, thanks again. Doug, Mary, in fact all those who posted on this thread, thanks for your input. You gave others food for thought and, hopefully, were made to think a little yourself. troll |
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12 Dec 00 - 06:01 PM (#356003) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: mousethief If you don't like what I'm saying, don't read it. This goes for anyone out there. Ah. So we're not allowed to discuss things we disagree with? Say why we disagree? Give an opposing view? This is bullshit. Sorry, you can't gag me that easily. |
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12 Dec 00 - 06:54 PM (#356036) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: McGrath of Harlow If you don't like what I'm saying, don't read it.
I don't reads that in the sense mousethief took it, as trying to close down disagreement. I took it as meaning something more like, if you are going to get upset by reading something that disagrees with you, you don't have to read it. Which seems fair enough to me.
People being rude about Jane Fonda doesn't matter that much, unless some damaged soul or publicity hungry nutter takes encouragement from it to get a gun, and blow her away. Which of course isn't at all impossible,,or even particuarly unlikely.
But there is an injustice involved. Going to Hanoi at the height of the War-that-Wasn't-a-War was not a prudent thing to do, it might not even have been a wise thing to do, but I can't see any malice in it. (Prudent = this is going to harm me; wise = this is going to harm the cause that I support.) I can't see how it can be seen as "harassing returning combat veterans", or as anything but an attempt to bring the war's end closer.
Insofar as one intention would have been to get over the message to Vietnam's leaders that there were Americans who were against the war, there may even have been a hope that it might make it more possible for prisoners to be seen as human beings, and not as alien devils. And people who are living in fear of bombs do not find it easy to recognise that. When I was a child the Germans were dropping bombs on the city I was living in. But the bombing was never as heavy as it was in Vietnam.
The idea that the war could have been in any way extended by Jane Fonda's visit just doesn't stand up. The government in Hanoi weren't on the point of giving in, they intended to win, no matter how long it took. They'd been fighting for 30 years already. A visit by some American film star was light relief, made for good photo calls, but that was all.
And I can't imagine how it could have made the American government any more reluctant to admit the fact that they could never win, and cut a deal.
I hope none of our governments ever get involvead in an unjust war again. But if they do, I hope that people will not feel frightened to do whatever they feel is right to oppose it. That's why I feel very uneasy at an ongoing campaign over 30 years against an individual for doing that in difficult circumstances. |
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12 Dec 00 - 07:07 PM (#356048) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Troll I've tried to explain why I feel as I do. If you don't like it, you can shove it. Read or not. It's up to you. I made that statement to let anyone who cares know that I will not pull punches or be gentle to spare someones feelings. Anyone on the forum is entitled to discuss anything they choose and disagree in any way they see fit. I cannot stop them nor would I if I could. It is only the sanctimonious and self-righteous little prigs of this world that think that others are out to silence them because of the diamond purity of their utterances which are beyond argument. And then you try to discredit me with "This is bullshit". Gag YOU? Why would I want to do that? You provide me with so many good straight lines. troll |
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12 Dec 00 - 07:24 PM (#356053) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Greg F. But I NEVER wavered in my support of the guys on the ground What was explained above, several times- and what you still don't get, was that at least half of those "guys" were Vietnamese! And their wives and children were being napalmed. The families of American GI's were never placed in harm's way. And perhaps you might want to watch that self-reightous sanctimony yourself? Best, Greg |
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12 Dec 00 - 07:37 PM (#356060) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Barry Finn Shove it, solves everything, great. Wish someone had told the goverment that before all this happened, they sure tried yelling it later. |
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12 Dec 00 - 09:07 PM (#356088) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Lucius Funny how well we remember Jane Fonda, and William Calley is all but forgotten. Lucius |
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12 Dec 00 - 09:50 PM (#356114) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Troll Where to begin. Where to begin. McGrath. Thank you for that first paragraph. You stated my intent very well. On the harassment issue, I was refering to the jerks who spit on returning servicemen in airports and jeered them for enlisting. The ones who called them "baby killers" and acted as though they, personally were totally responsible for the war. Greg. So nice of you to check in with a little of your vitroil. Please read my post of 12/12/00@05:44pm and then go crawl back under your rock. Barry. "Shove it" was a response to the response to my post of 5:44pm. I tried to let everyone know where I was coming from and why. I even thanked everyone for their postings. But some people just have to have the last word. There is nothing in the statement,"If you don't like what I'm saying, don't read it." that remotely hints at stifling argument or opposing views. But I got flamed. OK. I'm quite capable of defending myself and my ideals. If anyone has a problem with that, understand that I will answer reasoned argument with as reasoned an argument as I can make. I will answer flame with flame. troll |
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12 Dec 00 - 10:56 PM (#356141) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Barry Finn Hi Troll, ya know you went & ya fought a war, what were your words, you had to want to be there. I'm sorry that you're still upset that someone called you "Baby Killer" when you came home, you probably never thanked them for trying to end it & bring you home sooner either, did you? My brother went & became a seal, bad choice, he's paid for it ever since, every day since. Troll, in this country we don't allow teenagers to drink or think for that matter, what the hell were teenagers doing in some far off country learning the fine arts of killing & dying when they hadn't even been out of diapers long enough to have a sense of self. We still haven't settled WHY & we still can't live & let live. Of all my friends that did come home, none came back alright & most died before reaching mid life & still we bicker about who did what to whom instead of really trying heal those that live the pain & horror ever since, that's unspeakable, speak of that instead of Jane at least it's not like pissing in the wind. There's no concerned effort to give real help to them in need, they served, now fuck 'em, we don't need them anymore they're as much expendable now as they were way back when, that's what this goverment's gotten away with, it's them you/we/me should focus on. I ran into a Beau a friend of mine, haven't seen him in 20 yrs, he doesn't know if any of the others are still alive, he's had one job since the conflict, firefighter for a couple of yrs till they found out he was lighting a few of them himself, he's gotten no real help, only a check,. My cousin died last yr he was never right afterwards either, accidently over medicated himself, just like one of my best friends, Peter, he couldn't live with the pain that the doctors couldn't find, that was within a few yrs after returning, my high school chum & roomate, Allen right off walked into a jewelry store to relieve them of their contents, Little Stevie got drunk & robbed a bank, died on the side of the road somewhere far from home, Billy by now's most likely killed himself drinking cause he couldn't stand to keep seeing the same sniper still alive with a hole in his gut the size of a basketball, you already know about my brother. These were just a few & everyone has stories of their friends like these, Jane didn't do this & she's not the one that's still denies them help. It's not an angering situation it's a grossly sad situation & I'm thinking that if you can go beyond that anger you'll find that there's a world of hurt that's causing it. I'm done with this go for it & have the last say. Barry, Earl's brother
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12 Dec 00 - 11:02 PM (#356148) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: mg so you think they in America weren't put in harm's way..well if the POTUS were here he could tell us what "harm" is. There is financial harm of losing your breadwinner. The harm of losing your one true love at the age of 17. The harm of never seeing your father who died before you were born. The harm of being an elderly woman now and trying to locate your son or perhaps daughter on the streets. Of being in high school and never being able to tell anyone your brother had died for fear of the response you would get. Of getting a phone call from someone who saw the obituary saying it served him right. mg |
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12 Dec 00 - 11:20 PM (#356160) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: mg troll or anyone...does this mean anything to you: Binh Dinh....Det. 3....Qui Nhon....GMG3...IUWG-1.... Inshore Undersea Warfare Group One... someone is looking for info on an uncle. mg |
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12 Dec 00 - 11:29 PM (#356165) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Troll I don't want the last say, Barry, because that implies that it won't be talked about any more. And it needs to be talked about until enough people get angry enough to make the Government hear. But it won't be the anti-war crowd from the 60's and 70's that does it. They "stopped" the war. They did their duty and now they can go back to their gated communities and their safe jobs and shopping at the mall. Back to their comfy, warm fuzzy lives. The Vets mean nothing to them. As you said, it's the people like you and me who have to make the Government listen. |
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13 Dec 00 - 12:00 AM (#356180) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: katlaughing Troll, sorry, but I do not agree with your generalisation about people who were against the war. A great many of the ones I know today are low-to-middle class and care very much about veterans, including some of my family. During the protests against the Gulf War, my daughters and I were shoudler to shoulder with many who had been anti-war in the 60's and 70's. They came from all walks of life and most economic levels; I say most because there were not any from gated communities etc. I would like to say thank you to you, Troll, and you, Barry for sharing so much, even if you don't see eye-to-eye. I am sorry for the pain and anger and the lost lives and, for Earl and everyone else who still is effected by that time in our history. To some degree, we all are, I suppose, just not as directly. Thanks to Big Mick, as always a strong voice on this subject and to Mary Garvey, who has shared a bit of her pain before with us. We do need to hear your voices, everyone's voices in order to understand and to work through, and hopefully, to prevent such a terrible thing from happening, again. Please don't stop talking about it, esp. if it helps in anyway, even one person. With respect, kat |
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13 Dec 00 - 12:42 AM (#356193) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Troll Sorry Mary. No Help Kat, most of the anti-war people that I knew were college students from fairly affluent families. We write about what we know I guess. troll |
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13 Dec 00 - 01:13 AM (#356209) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: katlaughing Sorry, Troll, I guess so, but I have also learned a lot, here at the Mudcat, which gives me more to write about, hopefully, with some intelligence. Even if they were from affluent families, then, doesn't mean they continued in that vein. But, I don't mean to quibble with you, Troll, I really respect all that you and the others have written in here and do not want to diminish that in any way. thank you, kat |
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13 Dec 00 - 04:34 AM (#356245) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: McGrath of Harlow "On the harassment issue, I was refering to the jerks who spit on returning servicemen in airports and jeered them for enlisting. The ones who called them "baby killers" and acted as though they, personally were totally responsible for the war."
If you say that happened, that happened. Over in England the only people we called baby-killers was LBJ and Nixon and the people in charge, because that is what they were. Killing real babies by burning them and bombing them, and killing kids who were little more than babies by sending them to die in a brutal and pointless war, and turning a few of them into William Calleys.
But so far as I know Jane Fonda never went in for that kind of harassing of vets, and nor did anyone Americans I ever came across in the anti-war movement. |
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13 Dec 00 - 06:32 PM (#356780) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Skeptic People I knew in the anti-war movement always felt Jane was a bored little rich girl acting out the cause de jour. Her "apology" always seemed be the epitome of sophistry and self serving self delusion. McGrath, Sorry to say that people did spit on returning servicemen. "Baby Killer" was the least of what I heard returning Marines called. I knew guys who were back stateside on leave and came back to the Base early because of what their "friends" called them and how they got treated. It got worse as time went on. One of them summed it up this way "You sit in a bunker, smoking whatever. talking to a buddy who's saved your ass a time or too. Then half his head is gone before you'd even realize the what the "pow" was. Then come home and get called a criminal and people spit on you in the streets". But calling them "anti-war protestors" is wrong (see below). Troll, I group the anti-war protestors you talk about with Jane Fonda. Weekend hippies slumming with daddies AmEx card. There were protestors who knew who was to blame, who set up coffee houses around military bases and tried to help returning servicemen cope with what had happened to them. Set up legal clinics to help them avoid the draft and visited them in jail when they refused to service. Bailed there friends out who got busted protesting the war. Who tried (and maybe did, a little, point out the true villians). I know peole who went, came back and went on with life, who agree it was a stupid war but they had a duty as an American to go. Maybe they're "in denial". Maybe thats how they cope. Maybe they're insensitive, non-introspective drones. Maybe they just don't agree with me. Letting go of the anger, fear, pain and loss is hard. It gets distant but never goes away, not really. Maybe I've learned to deal with it, over time. Being reminded, bringing it up, is upsetting. And necessary. I don't want to ever forget what Truman, Eisenhower, Kennedy, DeGaulle and Ho Chi Minh, started. Or that McNamara, Kissinger, Taylor, Westmoreland, LBJ, Ho and the rest sent young men off to die by the hundreds of thousands and treated it like some kind of management problem. Moving colored pins on a map and not really caring about the lives they represented. (At least LBJ used to cry over the lists of the dead. To most of the "Brightest and the Best" that just proved that LBJ wasn't their sort of person). As mentioned early, when we forget, when it's just dull, dry, emotionless history, it makes it that much more likely that it will happen again. I've got a lot of friends who aren't around anymore. Either dead too soon, or changed, going through the motions, trapped in some unshakeable, private hell. Dealing with my anger, sadness and sorrow is hard. It seems wrong, somehow, to let it go. Like if I do, then it all was just a futile, stupid and all the rest 'police action'. Something to discuss calmly and reasonably. Dispassionately. Devoid of meaning. Just another management problem to be solved, filed away and forgotten. Regards John
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13 Dec 00 - 08:34 PM (#356876) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: McGrath of Harlow Putting the blame for the babies and the women and old people who were slaughtered and the villages which were burned on the individual soldiers who were involved against their will in most cases, that didn't happen with people who thought it through.
Since you say you saw it happening, it happened. Not that surprising if it did. It takes a lot of thinking through to make the distinctions as to where the real blame lay for things like that, and a lot of time people like simple answers. You see awful things happening on the TV, and you know that there are things happened that were more awful than that, and it'd be easy to feel that those guys in GIs uniforms putting torches to then houses and so forth are the ones who are to blame, and to look at people in the same uniforms and feel angry.
Apply it in Northern Ireland, it's not that easy to see the paratroops who shot down unarmed people on Bloody Sunday as victims more than as villains. But they were, And the real blame for that lay higher up.
But all I've heard and seen and remember from the Vietnam times tells me that the anti-GI stuff was far less than could have been expected. Weekend hippy stuff as Skeptic said. And not typical weekend hippy stuff either. And including some agent provocateurs up to dirty tricks on behalf the warmaking machine as well, I'd be sure of that. And from what I've also heard, returned veterans who got involved in the anti-war movement got some vicious treatment from people who backed the war, at the time, and long after it, and that seems to be forgotten sometimes.
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14 Dec 00 - 02:42 PM (#357220) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: GUEST,Big Mick The facts are, as my brother Skeptic said, that it did happen, wasn't rare, and efforts to now make it seem as though it didn't are attempts to collectively assuage the guilt of a nation and a generation. We treated a generation of kids as cannon fodder. We didn't even acknowledge that they went to war. No one threw us a parade until 9 or 10 years ago, and by that time most of us us had said fuck it, ain't worth the time to participate. We continued to deny the affects of Agent Orange, and acted like PTSS was just a bunch of fecking weak minded cry babies lookin' for a VA pension. And mostly we did the worst thing ever...........we made the Vet's invisible.............until one went crazy and started shooting. Then we assumed that all of them were crazy. And then made them invisible again. I have attempted to help folks understand how it was for us in this thread, and in THIS THREAD but I don't think it sinks in. That is why I tell Troll and others to not bother, they won't get it, take the lessons.........remember that That which doesn't destroy you makes you strong (God I hate quoting that fucking G. Gordon Liddy, even though he got it from someplace else.......attempt to make a difference in this world and move on. MARY, it goes like this. Binh Dinh. Probably and amphib base located near a ville called by this name Det. 3 - refers to the detachment this sailor was attached to. Could also be a Marine designation. Qui Nhon - probably refers to the province that was the area of Operation for this Det. GMG3 - Stands for Gunners Mate, Guns. This is referred to in the teams as an arm rate. It is the trade that this individual practiced in the Navy. IUWG-1.... Inshore Undersea Warfare Group One... this was the Operational Unit that was charged with spreading uncommon fucking maelstrom in the coastal waters and the inland waters within a certain number of miles of the coast. It was made up of UDT/SEALS, Force Recon (I believe) and the PBR's that delivered these warriors. My guess is that this person was a Third Class Petty Officer, Gunners Mate, attached to either the teams as a SEAL, or one of the support staff. Just a guess. I did not look this up, am just pulling from memories that I have not thought about for a lot of years here. But I will bet I am not off on much. Mick |
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14 Dec 00 - 02:45 PM (#357222) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: GUEST,Big Mick Help, Joe, or Joeclone. Can you fix my mistake? Thanks |
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14 Dec 00 - 03:41 PM (#357246) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: McGrath of Harlow "That which doesn't destroy you makes you stronger." Or "If it doesn't kill you, it makes you stronger." Nietsche I think is the normal source given for that. He probably got it from some one else though. Probably been have been saying it since the Ice Age, one way and another. Sometimes it's true. You can turn it round the other way - if it doesn't make you stronger, it'll kill you. In time. That's why people have to let go of hatred and bitterness, in order to survive.
I'm not doubting the antagonism to returning vets happened, in fact I'd be surprised if it hadn't. I'd question whether it's best understood as primarily an aspect of the anti-war movement.
People get frightened by the idea of defeat, the same way they get frightened by the idea of bereavement, or any kind of suffering, and they back away, and stay away, and they hit out. I'd imagine, and I'm guessing, that what must really have hurt most wouldn't have been so much the hatred, it'd have been indifference, people turning away and not wanting to know.
At least the people who were actively against the war thought it mattered. |
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14 Dec 00 - 05:10 PM (#357294) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Skeptic I think it was Nietzsche. And I think McGrath hit it. The indifference is the worst. The pain and anger spawned by something as innocuous as this thread show how much it mattered, or should matter. The personal conflicts and paradoxes engendered by the War and its aftermath demand a resolution that, for a lot, has never happened. What's needed is a recognition that all that emotion is there. Its real. A lot of people do deal with it (or do a good job hiding it away.) All deserve support. Not condemnation or pity or false sympathy or rationalizations to neatly compartmentalize the War. Hiding from intense emotion, hoping it will just go away, is all to common. To paraphrase, healing takes a community. Its one of our jobs and one a lot of us don't do all that well. A lot more don't even bother. Regards John |
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15 Dec 00 - 06:15 AM (#357514) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: McGrath of Harlow The people who remember the war are the people who were there. Vietnamese civilians on both sides and in the middle. Veterans on both sides. And in a diffetrent way, the people who threw themseelvs into the struggle against the war. All in a sense brothers in arms.
I think Mark Knopfler's song is about that, among other things, and the last lines put it well. "We are fools to make war on our brothers in arms". And on our sisters in arms.
BROTHERS IN ARMS
These mist covered mountains
Through these fields of destruction
There's so many different worlds
Now the sun's gone to hell
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15 Dec 00 - 10:54 AM (#357638) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: GUEST,Guest refresh |
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15 Dec 00 - 11:06 AM (#357648) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: GUEST Why? |
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15 Dec 00 - 11:18 AM (#357663) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: mg sometimes I read things that are just plainly idiotic..at least to my ears...I kept my mouth shut for how many years now? For fear of the banshee in me coming out I guess. Indifference was wonderful....live and let live. There was precious little indifference in the roads I traveled....people were hateful and mean about veterans...and they wouldn't even think that I was one, although stateside, so the very limited amount of self-control they might have had they didn't exercise. They said the most horrible things...and people in folk music, which I love, were the worst. And the people in Vancouver, B.C. were the very worst. Up to a few years ago I thought I just can't attend their stuff anymore..I can't go to anything without hearing good people slammed...when I knew there were American and at least one Irish-Canadian Vietnam veterans in their audiences. The songs that have been sung with such assurance and such righteousness, as if they knew diddly...the commentary that went with it. I screamed bloody murder at one patriarch of Canadian folk music when he told me, and a room full of people, some of whom were sympathetic, that there were no heroes in Vietnam. Imagine saying something like that... mg |
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19 Nov 15 - 03:02 AM (#3751996) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: GUEST,Barbara Dane Thank you Seth for your wise council about moving on.. But I have to correct you about Jane Fonda. I had the opportunity to work with her when we both were deeply committed to the GI movement, in support of the active duty GIs resistance to the war. She is far from a "bimbo" actress, (has academy awards etc.) and, even with the celebrity thing to content with, she really dug her heels in and worked alongside everyone else on the nitty gritty, giving excellent speeches at the rallies and at the other extreme, making dinner for a few dozen volunteers after the marches. She was born into film royalty (Henry Fonda was her father) but she didn't let that stand in the way of following her antiwar and anti-imperialist heart and risking everything. And you, mg… Thank you for outing the hypocrisy that is the curse of certain hand-on-heart liberal folkies. One particular guy I last saw in the 60s at meetings of the Sing Out! Board when we both were members, who was a "pacifist" of the coffeehouse variety, who complained that the magazine never should have printed the NLF anthem, especially with the English lyrics I had supplied which said "Arise, heroic southern land, arise, take rifle in your hand, etc." Oh no, we shouldn't be endorsing violence. That wouldn't do, for the little guy in rubber sandals to defend his family from the most powerful war machine in history!! But before signing off, I would like to express my admiration and gratitude to all those genuine pacifist folksingers who have struggled, since singing began on the planet, to unite everyone behind the idea that "Love thy neighbor" is not just a slogan, that "We are all one" is not just a fantasy. Oh dear ones, keep on singing, forever and forever, even as the darkness falls, even as the drones and bots continue to crowd reality off the map and the social media drowns out the sound of heart-to-heart conversation, even when the goal seems ever further down the road, like the receding horizon, because singing is where the joy lives, that is where the love revives itself and grows, it is in the songs that we find ourselves and realize we are not so bad, possibly even worth saving. Goodnight. |
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19 Nov 15 - 03:50 AM (#3752005) Subject: RE: Jane Fonda's exploits, please read From: Joe Offer Thank you for posting, Barbara. Over the years, you have made a lot of us think seriously about a lot of important issues. I only wish we knew the answers to those issues. -Joe Offer, veteran and pacifist- |