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Origins: O Come, O Come, Emmanuel

15 Dec 00 - 05:46 PM (#357967)
Subject: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanuel-need help
From: GUEST,emily b

Dear Mudcatters,

Someone once sang for me a really cool counter melody to this Christmas carol. With it, she had words that came from some very old text. It made a beautiful, sort of haunting piece. I'm sorry I don't have more to go on than this.

Does anyone know it?

Thanks,

Emily

See Related Thread (click)

15 Dec 00 - 06:35 PM (#358000)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanual-need help
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)

Dear Emily. The Carol is called, Veni Veni Emmanuel. 18th Century Carol by T.A.Lacey. I appologise but do not know the tune or have any way of finding it for you. Perhaps someone here who plays music might provide the tune. Yours, Aye. Dave

O come O come Emmanuel
Redeem thy captive Israel
That into exile drear is gone
Far from the face of God's dear son:

Rejoice Rejoice Emmanuel
Shall come to thee O Israel

O come thou branch of Jesse draw
This quarry from the lion's claw
From the dread caverns of the grave
From nether hell thy people save

O come O come thou dayspring bright
Pour on our souls thy healing light
Dispel the long night's lingering gloom
And pierce the shadows of the tomb

O come thou Lord of David's key
The royal door fling wide and free
Safeguard for us the heavenward road
And bar the way to death's abode

O come O come AdonaI (sp?)
Who in thy glorious majesty
From that high mountain clothed with awe
Gavest thy folk the elder law

15 Dec 00 - 06:50 PM (#358008)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanual-need help
From: catspaw49

For a quicker response, have Emmanuel try some Viagra, or its generic equivalent, mycoxaphalin.

Spaw

15 Dec 00 - 09:27 PM (#358064)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanual-need help
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)

Emily, you said you were looking for the counter melody. Do you remember any of the words?

15 Dec 00 - 09:31 PM (#358067)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanual-need help
From: catspaw49

Would you settle for an over-the-counter melody? Its true we have pulled quite a few off the market lately, but business is still pretty brisk.

Spaw

15 Dec 00 - 09:35 PM (#358069)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanual-need help
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)

Spaw, this reminds me of a game we used to play in junior choir, called, "Between the sheets". Look in the back of any hymnal, at the Index of First Lines. Read any first line of any hymn. Then say, "Between the sheets."

Oh, well, we thought it was pretty funny in junior choir...

"What Wondrous Love is This...
Awake my soul, stretch every nerve...
Oh love, how deep, how broad, how high...
etc.

15 Dec 00 - 09:42 PM (#358074)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanual-need help
From: catspaw49

Well Alli, its still funny if you have a "junior choir" mind...........like me!(:<)) Works well with Carols..........

God rest ye merry, gentlemen
O Holy Night
It came upon a midnight clear
Joy to the world, the Lord has come

Spaw

16 Dec 00 - 06:54 AM (#358193)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanual-need help
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)

Still, still, still...
The boars head in hand bear I
On this day, earth shall ring..
We've been awhile a-wandering...
You're right!

16 Dec 00 - 09:26 AM (#358221)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanual-need help
From: campfire

As long as we don't go to "Where Shepherds Watched Their Flocks By Night...."

Besides, 'Spaw prefers a yak.

campfire

16 Dec 00 - 09:45 AM (#358228)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanual-need help
From: Zebedee

This also works with Thread titles. From the current list:

Time to come together...

My Daddy's been taken by bears...

Bound To See My Mother 10000 Miles Away...

So Be Easy and Free When You're. . .

16 Dec 00 - 09:52 AM (#358230)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanual-need help
From: Zebedee

Or even the title of this thread:

Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanual-need help...

Ed

16 Dec 00 - 01:06 PM (#358297)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanual-need help
From: Seamus Kennedy

There you go, Emily. I knew someone could help you with that counter-melody you were looking for. Glad we could be of assistance. All the best.

Seamus

16 Dec 00 - 09:56 PM (#358457)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanual-need help
From: Marion

Emily, I don't know the counter-melody either (though I certainly wish I did), but here's a link to an earlier thread about this carol - maybe something here will provide you with a lead?

Latin for O Come O Come Emmanuel

Marion

17 Dec 00 - 05:29 PM (#358697)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanual-need help
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)

It's ok, Seamus, it's just another way to keep the thread alive. Or I could just type "Refresh"- but this is fun, too!

Oh, come, all ye faithful...

18 Dec 00 - 07:11 PM (#359403)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanuel-need help
From: catspaw49

Anybody got anything on this yet?

"We three Kings of Orient are"

Spaw

18 Dec 00 - 07:16 PM (#359413)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanuel-need help
From: Mary in Kentucky

Animaterra, I heard of a similar game.

Read a fortune cookie fortune out loud, then say, "in bed."

18 Dec 00 - 09:33 PM (#359513)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanuel-need help
From: GUEST,Marion

Although the joking around may serve the legitimate purpose of keeping the thread up there, I'd be worried that a guest or newcomer might not realize that, and think that her question was being blown off.

Marion

19 Dec 00 - 08:03 AM (#359696)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanuel-need help
From: Hamish

I play it as a tune in standard tuning: chords are (find you own extra notes with little finger/whatever):

Am C G(B) Am/G(B) C Am F Em7 Am D D(C) G/D D Am/C G(B) Am/G(B) Am

C C G(B) Am F Em7 Am Am

...or something like that. S'funny how the muscle memory doesn't work so well without the guitar in my hands...

Happy Christmas!

Hamish

19 Dec 00 - 10:19 AM (#359777)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanuel-need help
From: LR Mole

Chestnuts roasting on an open fire... Have yourself a merry little Christmas... Sleigh bells ring, are ya listenin... Come, they told me, pa-rum-pa-pum-pum...

19 Dec 00 - 05:10 PM (#360026)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanuel-need help
From: GUEST,emily b

Thanks everyone for responding. Sorry I didn't check back in sooner. I was distracted between the sheets...LOL!

Actually, I was distracted by Christmas stuff, etc. Now that I'm re-reading my original post, I realize that I wasn't very clear. I know the carol, the tune and the melody. It was this counter-melody and words I'm looking for. Animaterra, I can't remember a blasted thing about it except that I participated in the singing of it. But I was singing the regular melody and words.

It's probably some obscure tune/lyrics that someone realized worked with the carol but wouldn't normally go with it.

Marion, thanks for the concern about the thread creep. It does get a bit much at times. Fortunately, I've been around long enough to understand it. As soon as I get online at home I'll sign up for real.

Thanks again.

If I ever find this, I'll post it.

Happy Holidays to all,

Emily B

19 Dec 00 - 05:19 PM (#360033)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanuel-need help
From: catspaw49

Sorry Em that we couldn't get it..........I remember doing things as a kid in choir and such and I forget some of the details......except that it was something I liked. Keep thinkin' and if you come up with some other clues,,,,try it again.

And Marion.....Neither Animaterra nor I will screw up serious threads for the hell of it. Also, I have met emily a lot before around here and she's not the type to mind.

Spaw

15 Feb 13 - 09:29 PM (#3480218)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanuel-need help
From: Airymouse

I was wondering if "come" and "ransom" are in the imperative mood. Possibly they are in the subjunctive mood indicating wish as in "God bless you" or "I wish I were a fuzzy wuzzy fox". Of course, "until the son of God APPEAR" is subjunctive of indefinite future. Thus, if "come" is a command, we have a well-known sentence in which all three moods are used.
I am hoping some mudcatter is secretly an English professor and can straighten me out.

15 Feb 13 - 10:30 PM (#3480231)
Subject: Lyr Add: VENI VENI ... / O COME O COME EMMANUEL
From: Joe Offer

Hi, Airymouse -

I'm glad I had the Internet to help me out. I had six years of Latin, but it has faded in the 45 years since my 6th-year class.
    O come (veni)
    and
    Ransom (solve) - better translated "release"

are both imperatives.

The imperative is usually formed by dropping the last two letters from the infinitive, so "venire" (to come) becomes "veni" (come) - but "venite" (Y'all come) in the plural, as in "venite adoremus."

Hope that helps. Vote for me for pope.

-Joe, the ex-seminarian-


Veni, Veni Emmanuel is a synthesis of the great "O Antiphons" that are used for Vespers during the octave before Christmas (Dec. 17-23). These antiphons are of ancient origin, dating back to at least the ninth century. The hymn itself, though, is much more recent. Its first appeared in the 18th century in the Psalteriolum Cantionum Catholicarum (Cologne 1710).

There are several arrangements of this hymn. The one below gives the seven verses in the order in which the antiphons appear during the octave before Christmas, except for the first verse, which really is the last of the O antiphons and would otherwise go at the end if it were not the standard first verse of the hymn. It is interesting to note that the initial words of the actual antiphons in reverse order form an acrostic: O Emmanuel, O Rex, O Oriens, O Clavis, O Radix ("virgula" in the hymn), O Adonai, O Sapientia. ERO CRAS can be loosely translated as "I will be there tomorrow". That is a fitting message indeed since Christ's birth falls on the following day.

VENI veni, Emmanuel
captivum solve Israel,
qui gemit in exsilio,
privatus Dei Filio.
R: Gaude! Gaude! Emmanuel,
nascetur pro te Israel! 		O COME, O come, Emmanuel,
and ransom captive Israel,
that morns in lonely exile here
until the Son of God appear.
R: Rejoice! Rejoice! O Israel,
to thee shall come Emmanuel!
Veni, O Sapientia,
quae hic disponis omnia,
veni, viam prudentiae
ut doceas et gloriae. R. 		O come, Thou Wisdom, from on high,
and order all things far and nigh;
to us the path of knowledge show,
and teach us in her ways to go. R.
Veni, veni, Adonai,
qui populo in Sinai
legem dedisti vertice
in maiestate gloriae. R. 		O come, o come, Thou Lord of might,
who to thy tribes on Sinai's height
in ancient times did give the law,
in cloud, and majesty, and awe. R.
Veni, O Iesse virgula,
ex hostis tuos ungula,
de spectu tuos tartari
educ et antro barathri. R. 		O come, Thou Rod of Jesse's stem,
from ev'ry foe deliver them
that trust Thy mighty power to save,
and give them vict'ry o'er the grave. R.
Veni, Clavis Davidica,
regna reclude caelica,
fac iter tutum superum,
et claude vias inferum. R. 		O come, Thou Key of David, come,
and open wide our heav'nly home,
make safe the way that leads on high,
that we no more have cause to sigh. R.
Veni, veni O Oriens,
solare nos adveniens,
noctis depelle nebulas,
dirasque mortis tenebras. R. 		O come, Thou Dayspring from on high,
and cheer us by thy drawing nigh;
disperse the gloomy clouds of night
and death's dark shadow put to flight. R.
Veni, veni, Rex Gentium,
veni, Redemptor omnium,
ut salvas tuos famulos
peccati sibi conscios. R. 		O come, Desire of the nations, bind
in one the hearts of all mankind;
bid every strife and quarrel cease
and fill the world with heaven's peace. R.

Latin, paraphrase of the great "O antiphons". Translation by T. Helmore (1811-1890), J. M. Neale (1818-1866) and others.

Source: http://www.preces-latinae.org/thesaurus/Hymni/VeniEmm.html

16 Feb 13 - 05:59 AM (#3480292)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanuel-need help
From: JohnInKansas

Going back to the original question, when I was a choirboy (sort of) we had a few performances in which a Latin version of a hymn was sung as a "counter" by a solo voice while the main choir sang the English.

This didn't happen very often, but the "countermelody" was generally just something very close to the alto harmony, with the minor adjustments needed for differences in syllables. (The strong singers we had were mostly female voices, but the melody usually is in the sopranos so the alto might be prefered regardless?)

Depending on the background of the congregation, the same sort of thing could probably be done with any other language. I would have expected that perhaps a German version would have "sounded right" for many of the people in churches in my area, but I've heard a few quite lovely Swedish and Dutch renditions of well known hymns that probably would have fit well as counterpoint to English with very little "arrangement."

John

16 Feb 13 - 08:41 AM (#3480333)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanuel-need help
From: Midchuck

The game procedure could be applied to the text of Guest Marion's post, itself, with some success.

P.

16 Feb 13 - 09:41 AM (#3480349)
Subject: RE: Oh Come, Oh Come, Emmanuel-need help
From: Airymouse

Hi Joe, Had I a vote, you'd have it. were you bold enough (at least 82). I am delighted to know a sentence with the imperative, the indicative, and the subjunctive all in one fell swoop, though I admit no sane person would care.