|
31 Dec 00 - 04:19 PM (#366369) Subject: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: WyoWoman I mentioned to a friend the other day that someone was a 'rounder,' meaning a rowdy, hard-drinking, hard-timing son of a gun. He asked me where the term came from, and what exactly it meant and I could only fake a definition. Have no idea where the term came from, just that I've heard it in lots of songs (The line from Emmylou Harris 'Get up rounder, let a working girl sit down ...' keeps running around my brain). Anyone? Anyone? Bueller?tx/ww |
|
31 Dec 00 - 06:02 PM (#366448) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: Jimmy C I don't know for sure but I would guess that it has something to do with cowboys working on a roundup?. Then again the railroad song " Casey Jones" starts with " Come all you rounders if you want to hear" so it may be linked to railroads ?. Or maybe someone who plays around ????. take your pick. I would like to know for sure now that you mention it. Anybody ?. |
|
31 Dec 00 - 11:41 PM (#366588) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: GUEST,Art Thieme Right, the roundhouse was a half way decent place to hang out for hobos looking to catch one out. In the old song from the 1800s (after the demise of General Custer)"THE DREARY BLACK HILLS" a portion goes:
The roundhouse at Cheyenne is filled every night Art Thieme |
|
01 Jan 01 - 03:00 AM (#366621) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: Jimmy C Thanks Art. Always wondered what it meant. |
|
01 Jan 01 - 03:46 AM (#366628) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: rangeroger Definition 3 for Rounder in my Random House Webster's College Dictionary is; a habitual drunkard or wastrel. No etymology or date. rr |
|
01 Jan 01 - 10:34 AM (#366697) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: okthen this word is so similar to "BOUNDER" in meaning that I wonder if someone once saw it in handwritten form, the author having failed close the base of the B, forming the letter R. or is this carrying conjecture too far? cheers bill
|
|
01 Jan 01 - 10:36 AM (#366699) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: okthen P.S. no one has mentioned Rounder records,or how bad you have to be to get into the book of rounder records. cheers bill |
|
01 Jan 01 - 12:23 PM (#366739) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: GUEST,RC From the liner notes to "Mystery Train-- Classic Railroad Songs, Volume 2" (Rounder CD 1129, 1997 Rounder Records Corp. www.rounder.com): Regarding Johnny Cash's recording of "Casy Jones"-- " 'rounders' is late 19th century American slang for one who frequents saloons and other establishments of questionable repute. It has nothing to do with roundhouses or other railroadiana." |
|
01 Jan 01 - 12:37 PM (#366748) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: McGrath of Harlow Now how would they know that? I wondered whether in Casey Jones it mightn't have been a misshearing of
Come all ye round us, if ye want to hear" or something like that. |
|
01 Jan 01 - 12:58 PM (#366754) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: GUEST,RC McGrath of Harlow, What are you referring to when you ask how they would know that? ...that is has nothing to do with roundhouses, or are you wondering about their slang definition? The liner notes are credited to a Norm Cohen of Portland, Oregon,and there is a credit to Bob Pinson at the Country Music Foundation for discographical detail. I suppose with folk music you never can be sure of anything, and mishearings are entirely possible, along with all the other things that twist songs over time. |
|
01 Jan 01 - 05:16 PM (#366835) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: dulcimer Wasn't the roundhouse at the end of the rail line where the trains were actually turned 180 degrees to head back in the other direct. And of course the old joke and advise to young maidens--Head for the roundhouse Nellie. He'll never corner you there. |
|
02 Jan 01 - 01:38 PM (#367139) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: LR Mole From Otto L. Bettman's book "The Good Old Days--They Were Terrible":"In New York drunks were confined in the Asylum for Inebriates on Blackwell's Island. Released after a few days of abstinence, they often went on a new binge, and, incarcerated again, became known as 'rounders'." This might not be the only source of the word, but it's one, and in view of the justice, and social, system,probably referrred to a path trodden by many poor guys, black and white. |
|
02 Jan 01 - 01:51 PM (#367150) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: McGrath of Harlow RC - What I was thinking was, how could anyone ever tell that there was no connection between roundhouses used by people who frequent boozers, and the same kind of people using boozers being referred to as rounders?
The only way would be if you could prove that the term rounders was used with this kind of meaning before the term roundhouse in this sort of context ever came along. Which of course might be possible.
"Rounders" as another term for people who keep on coming back for more bad treatment, recidivists maybe - that makes sense, even if it may turn out not to be etymologically the proven correct source of the word. Stuck in the daily round of life, even. Going round in circles, getting nowhere.
Maybe something like that lay behind the choice of Groundhog Day for the movie.
Words sometimes get reinforced by puns and suchlike adding a new layer of meaning to the initial one.. Like "Old Timer's Disease" for Altzheimer's. No connection with the original spource, but apt. |
|
02 Jan 01 - 02:20 PM (#367174) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: GUEST,Songster Bob Well, "Come al you rounders if you want to hear" does not mean that the intended audience of the singer/writer was primarily railroad men. If you're used to singing in saloons, among other venues, it seems to me you'd call your regular audience by a term that fits 'em, even if the subject was something else. In other words, even though it's a railroad song, it doesn't have to have been aimed at railroaders by its writer. So if "rounders" means lay-abouts and drunks, who else do us songsters get to sing to, anyway? Bob Clayton |
|
02 Jan 01 - 02:41 PM (#367188) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: Doctor John Sorry to throw an irrelevant spoke in it but a "roundhouse" is a term in the UK (poss around Liverpool)for a lavatory! Dr John |
|
02 Jan 01 - 06:10 PM (#367321) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: GUEST,Art Thieme I suspect Norm Cohen has it right. Art |
|
02 Jan 01 - 07:26 PM (#367381) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: WyoWoman So then, Dr. John, definition 5 of rounders should be "individuals with Montezuma's revenge ...?" The definition re. the home for inebriates sounds pretty plausible, doesn't it? (But then, I was ready to go for the roundhouse thaing, too, so ... any ol' 'splanation in a storm ...) Thanks for the thinking, ww |
|
02 Jan 01 - 07:48 PM (#367394) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: McGrath of Harlow Of course a rounder might be someone you hope might buy a round of drinks... |
|
03 Jan 01 - 11:31 AM (#367802) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: Jimmy C I knew I had this book somewhere. " A Treasury of Railroad Folklore" by B.A.Botkin and Alvin F.Harlow.(1953). I have just scanned through the book and can find nowhere that gives a definite meaning for the word "rounder". However in the first verse of Casey Jones on page 54 the word "rounder" is applied to Casey himself.
It then gives a biography of Casey and his brothers (all engineers) and Casey's wife Janey. The book does say that Casey was so devoted to his job that when he took a train to the Roundhouse, he waited personally to bring it back. I suspect a rounder was a combination of a lot of things, all mentioned in the answers above, perhaps stating out as someone who took a train to the roundhouse and back or even drove both ways on a return trip. I can't imagine a inebriate being allowed to run a train, but in those days who knows?. Later the name may have been affixed to the hobos and drunks who waited at the roundhouse hoping for a free ride. I will now have to read the entire 530 pages of the book just to satisfy my curiosity. Will let you know if I find anything. |
|
03 Jan 01 - 11:50 AM (#367813) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: WyoWoman Glad to send you on a personal quest, Jimmy... At least it sounds like more fun than some quests I've been on ... ww |
|
04 Jan 01 - 11:26 AM (#368434) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: Burke With a common word like round and many possible derivations all the usages don't have to be linked.
The OED separates the rounders you've talked about into several sub-definitions and possible relations: c. = ROUNDSMAN 1. Usage:1896 in Eng. Dial. Dict. Roundsman is defined as: 1. A labourer in need of parochial relief, who was sent round from one farmer to another for employment, partly at the expense of the farmer and partly at the cost of the parish. [earliest usage 1790's] d. N. Amer. One who makes the round of prisons, workhouses, drinking saloons, etc.; a habitual criminal, loafer, or drunkard. Also transf. usage examples: 1854 Congress Globe 33rd Congress 1st Sess. App. 1220/3: I have always found him a very kind and agreeable manwhat the 'rounders' in New York would term a 'glover'. 1879 A. DALY Let. 20 Oct. in J. F. Daly Life A. Daly (1917) xxi. 330: [We] are old 'rounders' and familiar with the voice, gait and peculiarities of most of the actors and actresses on the American stage.: 1884 [see REPEATER 5b]. 1891 Boston (Mass.) Jrnl. 7 July 2/4 The regular rounders who are beginning to receive long sentences under the new drunkenness law. 1894 Outing XXIV. 440/2: A gay young bravo, one of New York's many 'rounders', or all-nighters. f. U.S. slang. A transient railway worker. usage:1908 Casey Jones (song) in Railroad Man's Mag. May 764/1: Come all you rounders, for I want you to hear The story told of an engineer, Casey Jones was the rounder's name, A heavy right-wheeler of a mighty fame. 1939 F. J. LEE Casey Jones 287: The word 'rounder' as applied to Casey must be taken as a light, affectionate appellation. 1961 Listener 24 Aug. 270/2: His was a six-pipe job whose moans sent every coloured 'rounder' from Chicago to New Orleans into ecstasies. |
|
04 Jan 01 - 11:48 AM (#368450) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: Jimmy C Burke, thanks for all the research. I think we all agree that it is a word that may be applied to various types and occupations. Now that I have started reading the book, I will have to finish it but I doubt if I will be able to shed any more light on the topic. WyoWoman take note - I have started the quest. Thanks again Burke. |
|
04 Jan 01 - 01:52 PM (#368522) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: Gary T Well, Burke, you're a hero. The pitiful dictionaries I had access to did not even have the definition of a transient railway worker. Now that I see that there are two different meanings of the word likely to be found in folk/country music, it all makes more sense. |
|
04 Jan 01 - 05:40 PM (#368632) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: Burke It was fun to look-up, I just don't read all threads so it was a while before I got to i.. Questions like this are really easy when you have web access to the right resources. I just hope the OED copyright police don't have any objections. |
|
04 Jan 01 - 06:17 PM (#368668) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: RWilhelm There is a third definition for rounder. In his book _Songsters and Saints_ Paul Oliver quotes Perry Bradford talking about a song he wrote in 1907 called the "Jacksonville Rounder's Dance" "...but people didn't like the title because 'rounder' meant pimp, so I wrote some new lyrics in 1919 and renameed it 'The Original Black Bottom Dance.'" |
|
04 Jan 01 - 08:03 PM (#368746) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: okthen Another fascinating thread, I actually went to the library to research the shorter OED and found nothing of interest. Where can I get access to complete OED online? There are a few words I'd like to look up, and I can't afford 500 pounds for the CD. cheers bill |
|
05 Jan 01 - 09:07 PM (#369426) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: Burke To get OED you have to be a user of a library with a subscription. If you're on a college campus in the US there's a pretty good chance you can get it anywhere on campus because they use IP authentication. I'm not sure how public libraries handle it, but sometimes they are able to authenticate with library card information. Here's the address we use: http://dictionary.oed.com/entrance.dtl If it works, then your institution has a subscription. If not, poke around the library web pages or library catalog & you might find information about connecting. If you're in the library ask the reference librarian. |
|
05 Jan 01 - 10:14 PM (#369467) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: WyoWoman Very interesting stuff. Thanks, Burke, and also Earl. All the definitions can fit under the heading "Hopeless Dude..." and work in the songs I've heard them in ... Still, you enjoy the quest, Jimmy. It's all about the journey, hardly ever about the destination. best, ww |
|
20 May 04 - 07:17 PM (#1190234) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: GUEST I am searching for the words and music to a song based on the advice you reference "run for the round house. . .he'll never corner you there" There's a character in a play that says that, but it says "she sings the old song. . . " Can you help? |
|
20 May 04 - 07:41 PM (#1190252) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Run for the roundhouse, Nellie, they'll never corner you there. Willard Robison, Zeke Manners and others. Thought this would be easy, but no luck. |
|
20 May 04 - 07:41 PM (#1190253) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: kendall I've always thought "Rounder" was American for "Bounder". We don't hear so good... When I was a boy, there was a local parody that went: Casy Jones was a son of a bitch, He drove a Ford with a whorehouse switch, He blew the whistle and he rang the bell And he went through Machias like a bat out of hell. Now Casy Jones said before he died There are two more women that he wanted to ride, His fireman asked him, who could they be, It was Frances Crocker and Susie McGee. |
|
20 May 04 - 08:19 PM (#1190280) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: Q (Frank Staplin) Machias? More digression; reminiscent of: Old Casey Jones was a son of a bitch Ran his engine in a hell of a ditch Motor exploded, whistle split The fireman fainted and Casey shit. Also: Old Casey said before he died, There's four more things I'd like to ride: Bicycle, tricycle, pushmobile, And a bow-legged whore on a Ferris wheel. Burke pretty well covered the meanings of rounder. One other has been added in the OED; a worker who shapes or rounds something in a factory. Probably posted before, these childhood rhymes are from Randolph and Legman, "Roll Me in Your Arms." |
|
20 May 04 - 08:46 PM (#1190303) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: dick greenhaus BTW- Rounder Records was named after The Holy Modal Rounders. |
|
20 May 04 - 09:33 PM (#1190344) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: Amos 1. libertine, debauchee, rounder -- (a dissolute person; usually a man who is morally unrestrained) (from the online dictionary "Wordnet"). http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn?stage=1&word=rounder |
|
20 May 04 - 10:20 PM (#1190383) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: Lin in Kansas Wyo-- Thanks for another little chunk of education...what would I do without the 'Cat? My last two brain cells would atrophy! While I'd never given much thought to the origin of the word, my personal definition of it matches the one given just above by Amos, with the connotations of Definition "d" given by Burke. Now I know why. However, I have another question now. Kendall, what the hell is "a Ford with a whorehouse switch"???? Lin |
|
21 May 04 - 12:26 AM (#1190448) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: GUEST,Chip2447 Also a poker player, usually used to describe a professional. |
|
21 May 04 - 12:42 AM (#1190454) Subject: RE: Help: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Dear GUEST......There's a character in a play
|
|
21 May 04 - 04:44 AM (#1190545) Subject: RE: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: kendall I always wondered what a "whorehouse switch" was, but remember, I was mabe 10 years old at the time and probably mis heard the lyrics. |
|
21 May 04 - 07:57 AM (#1190641) Subject: RE: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: Deckman This term "rounder" is still in active use today, here on the NorthWest coast of America. I remember vividly my surprise when, in a conversation with a rather moral and upright lady, she referred to a man we both knew by saying "he's quite a rounder, you know!" My surprise was not the news that he was a rounder, but her use of such an old term and the scorn in her voice. Her clear meaning to me that he is a drinker and a womanizer. This conversation happened perhaps 15 years ago. I was so disturbed by her scathing comments that I had to rush home and have a drink to calm my nerves. CHEERS, Bob(deckman)Nelson |
|
21 May 04 - 08:31 AM (#1190661) Subject: RE: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: Amos Probably a very easily moved switch that would go on and off a lot. A |
|
21 May 04 - 12:23 PM (#1190852) Subject: RE: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: Mudlark And, altho it's somewhat beside the point, I thought the line (from "Hello, Stranger") was...Git up rounder, let a workin' girl lie down.... not sit down... |
|
22 May 04 - 02:20 AM (#1191332) Subject: RE: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: Lin in Kansas Amos and Kendall-- LOL. Or perhaps, as my SO claims, it was a switch installed by car owners to disconnect the overhead light when the door was opened, so no one could see them get out of a car parked where it shouldn't be... (I did NOT ask him where he came up with THAT interpretation. Sometimes discretion is the better part...) Lin |
|
22 May 04 - 12:13 PM (#1191511) Subject: RE: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: Big Jim from Jackson If someone has "been around", might not that person be referred to as a 'rounder? |
|
30 Dec 23 - 07:08 PM (#4194506) Subject: RE: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: GUEST Cowboys that rounded up cattle. Just a guess. |
|
30 Dec 23 - 08:59 PM (#4194510) Subject: RE: Where did 'ROUNDER' come from? From: meself About thirty-five years ago, when I was working a construction job in Windsor, Ontario, I was surprised to hear our boss refer to some disreputable characters he had known earlier in life as, "a real bunch of rounders" - that's the only time I've ever heard the term used outside of a folksong. As for its origins, all I know on that subject is what I've learned on Mudcat ... ! I'm just curious, though, as to who else has heard the term "rounders" used by normal people - i.e., not by folksingers and their hangers-on, or by the academically-inclined in moments of irony - and where. |