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17 Jan 01 - 06:53 PM (#376540) Subject: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU I have been approached by a dear old friend and twin, Tony O'Hara. Tony (who looked so like me in our thrities, his sister got us confused!...) is the brother of Patsy O'Hara who gave his life during the 1981 hunger strike. There are commemorations being planed in Ireland, Manchester, Boston, New York, Phillidelphia, Washington, San Fransico and elsewhere. If you are interested in taking part in the planning get in touch with me by email, InOBU@aol.com and I will forward you to the list. Larry |
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18 Jan 01 - 04:06 PM (#377184) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Sarah2 refresh |
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18 Jan 01 - 09:13 PM (#377413) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Thanks Sarah - Larry |
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18 Jan 01 - 09:15 PM (#377416) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU I should mention, (and wonder at the no responce) that the committees take notice of the fact that there are hunger strikes now on in Ireland and Turkey. Where are the voices that were quite strong for Irish rights last year??? - Larry |
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18 Jan 01 - 09:35 PM (#377435) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Big Mick Larry, I don't know what I can do to help you from Michigan, but whatever it is you can count on me for it. These martyrs must not be forgotten for the brave sacrifice they made. All the best, Mick |
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18 Jan 01 - 10:01 PM (#377449) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Sorcha That's just it, Lorcan. I don't know what I can do from Wyoming,USA. If e mails would help, I could do that, but I can't exactly go to Ireland and demonstrate outside the Prison. I have purchased the Joe Doughtery CD, and I don't exactly know what else I could do.........I will not send money to Ireland, because I have no clue where it would really end up.......and I don't want to buy guns and ammo for the IRA. |
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18 Jan 01 - 10:18 PM (#377456) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Lox Just remember, and don't let it happen again. This is a painful wound that won't heal for a long time. Careful that you try to heal it and don't just pick at the scab. lox |
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18 Jan 01 - 10:59 PM (#377482) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Lox Doesn't mean you can't talk about it (sorry if I gave that impression) lox |
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19 Jan 01 - 01:01 AM (#377529) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: paddymac Hallowed be their names, each and every one. Sorcha - You are free to have your opinions, but if you would study the history and current situation your would realize that the IRA is not the problem. It is an entirely predictable response to the underlying problem of an aparthied statelet. For all practical purposes, the IRA laid down their arms in April of 1998. However, the British government, the RUC, and Unionists operating under a variety of aliases, continue murdering innocent people, burning, fire-bombing, beatings and other forms of terrorism. It's the very same sort of ethnic cleansing that most of the world railed against in the Balkans, but seems not to raise so much as a whimper against in Northern Ireland. The marvel is that the guns of the IRA have stayed silent. How long they can remain silent, while the people they have tried to protect continue to be terrorized by the established order, is the frightening question. |
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19 Jan 01 - 05:28 AM (#377590) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Dear Friends There are commemorations planned through out the US. I will post what cities have committees as the come up. Sorcha, this is not for money for the IRA. In fact, the families involved are both IRA and INLA members sisters, brothers, mothers and fathers, who wish that their children's sacrifice be remembered and not colored by propaganda, and be a lasting light focused on human rights abuses, which is why family members and committee members ask that you become informed about hunger strikes for human rights as they happen in ANY nation. I will post, in a moment, information about the Irish and Turkish hunger strikes, so that you may right to Bertie Ahern and the Turkish governments, and express your concern. In a nut shell the Irish strike is about compasionate parol for republican prisioners to visit critically ill family members, and the Turkish strike concerns the human rights of Kurds. All the best, Larry |
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19 Jan 01 - 06:08 AM (#377594) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Dave the Gnome Paddymac. The hunger strikers gave their lives for a cause they believed to be just and true in a way that did harm only to themselves and to the regimes that imprisoned them. Whatever the cause was is irrelevant. I believe InOBU wanted to commemorate their sacrifice in a peaceful and humanitarian manner which warrants the respect of all concerned. I will not apologise for the actions of the British Government or the RUC. I cannot. Nor would I expect you to apologise for the the Republican factions "operating under a variety of aliases, continue murdering innocent people, burning, fire-bombing, beatings and other forms of terrorism" What I will do is extend my hand in friendship, in the hope that you may forgive whatever harm I have done to you. If you believe that the British people do not endorse the repression of the Irish, as I believe that Irish are a peaceful peoples, then we can move forward. If we take a negative stand we may as well give up now. My Son, Stewart, now nearly 20, was born on the day that Bobby Sands died. (May 5). At that point I promised myself that I would never instill the hatred that has perpetuated this bloody and violent conflict in any of my children. To date, all my children (5 - aged 16 to 24) have no ethnic related predjudices. Let us hope that if enough of us, on both sides of the Irish Sea, do the same then the sins of the fathers will not be visited upon the sons. Those sons and daughters will eventualy build a peaceful, bright new future in a way that talk of past attrocities never can. They will be the ladders out of the pit that we keep digging with violence and hatred. I will not say I pray to God for the souls of the dead hunger strikers, as that may indicate I follow one of the religions which started this bloody mess in the first place. Instead I will light a candle to remind me that somewhere in the dark there is a glimmer of hope. All the best and may the courage of your convictions help bring about a peaceful solution. Dave the Gnome |
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19 Jan 01 - 06:50 AM (#377608) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock I was born and have lived in Northern Ireland for the past 25 years. I totally abhor the violence that has occurred there and I have no time for anyone who perpetrates, supports, or justifies that violence in any shape or form. On any "side". For any reason. I think I understand that Larry has approached this subject from a humanitarian point of view, but as such a subject is open to such passionate, emotional and distressing arguments that I would ask everyone to realise that they're writing about something that has affected thousands of people and that their rhetoric may bring more hurt than good, intentional or not. Dave the Gnome has the right idea in raising his children without prejudice. I like to think I was brought up the same way. I am not contesting peoples' rights to their own opinions; I just want everyone to be aware that some issues are too close to the bone for others to bear. |
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19 Jan 01 - 07:14 AM (#377613) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Lady McMoo I entirely agree with you Fibula and, also being Irish, this is why I have refrained from commenting in the numerous threads in this forum on this sensitive issue. Peace to all mcmoo |
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19 Jan 01 - 07:42 AM (#377622) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Thanks for the continued conversation about these important humanitarian issues. The following two posts are about prisoners on hunger strike in Ireland and Turkey. The support for the conditions that face prisoners, wether prisoners of concience, common criminals, or participants in insurections must be uniform, in that human rights are not granted to the good, but shared by all. If we have groups that are not deserving of basic rights, then we will have people struggling to achieve those rights - with all the terrible pain that flows from that struggle. This was sent from the Irish Republican Prisoner's Welfare Association... and gives information about the presnet hunger strike on in Portlaoise. Larry ON HUNGER STRIKE!
Irish Republican Prisoners Welfare Association Supports Hunger Striker Danny McAlister And calls on Dublin Government to End Discrimination
Following representation from the family of Belfast POW Danny Mc Alister, incarcerated in Portlaoise Gaol, we have learned of his Hunger Strike protest started on January 01 2001.
This extreme action taken by Danny Mc Alister has been forced by the continuing discrimination policy implanted by the Dublin Government by refusing compassionate parole to Republican prisoners to visit sick and dying relatives.
Danny has applied repeatedly to and been refused consistently by the Minister of Justice to visit his elderly, ailing Mother and his seriously ill Brother who is suffering from Leukemia.
Despite repeated attempts by his legal representative to ascertain the criteria and reasons for the refusals, to date the Minister of Justice John O'Donaghue has ignored these requests as he has ignored the requests of other Republican prisoners in Portlaoise Gaol in similar circumstances.
Danny Mc Alister's actions are understandable bearing in mind the torturous treatment he was subjected to during the weeks leading up to the death of his father. At the time the government engaged in 'Cat and Mouse' tactics before ultimately refusing him to visit his dying father. He was allowed to attend his father's funeral only as a consequence of initiating action.
The Irish Republican Prisoners Welfare Association demand an end to the current discrimination policy against Republican POWs in Portlaoise Gaol and the immediate full implementation of Political status to all Republican prisoners held in Gaols throughout Ireland. We call on all human rights organisations and individuals to support the restoration of political status and exert pressure on the Dublin Government to cease this practice forthwith in order to avert another tragedy in an Irish Gaol.
Support the prisoners!
Demolish the Prisons!
Until all are, we are all imprisoned!
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19 Jan 01 - 07:44 AM (#377623) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Here's an update from Human Rights Watch Turkey: Government Seeks to Quash Scrutiny of Prisons Transfer Prisons Activist Jailed (New York, January 9, 2001) Human Rights Watch today condemned the Turkish government's crackdown on those seeking to expose torture, beatings and other police abuses during the violent December raid of Turkish prisons. The December 19 military prisoner transfer operation took place in twenty Turkish prisons. In the transfer, thirty prisoners and two gendarmes were killed. Nimet Tanrikulu, former president of the Istanbul branch of the Human Rights Association of Turkey (HRA) was formally arrested Monday for participating in a non-violent demonstration against recent transfers of prisoners into isolation units at Turkey's new F-type high-security prisons. "The Turkish government is trying to hide grievous violations. These people deserve to be listened to, not gagged and locked up," said Jonathan Sugden, the Human Rights Watch researcher for Turkey. Sugden is currently in Ankara investigating allegations of beatings and torture during the December prison transfers.
Since the transfer, the Turkish Human Rights Association has been attempting to collect evidence from prisoners, lawyers and released prisoners about the December 19 transfers. A paper the HRA published on Saturday contains evidence and testimony of severe beatings in gendarmerie transports, and beating and ritual humiliation on arrival at the F-type prisons in Edirne, Kocaeli and Ankara. The HRA has also tracked the regime of extreme isolation imposed on the more than one thousand inmates held in solitary and three-person units. In consequence the human rights group has been targeted for intense official pressure.
The Human Rights Watch representative, Mr. Sugden, was present on Monday when plainclothes police officers entered the national headquarters of the HRA in Ankara to question Husnu Ondul, association president, about a press briefing he had given earlier in the day. Husnu Ondul later told Human Rights Watch, "Here I am, with five of my branches shut down in the past six weeks-all because of our work on the prisons, without a doubt. My people are detained or raided almost every day….We are living in some of the worst days in the history of the association." The Human Rights Association was founded in 1986.
Husnu Ondul also complained that the association was receiving constant threats by telephone. Ankara local branch president Lutfi Demirkapi told HRW about a threatening phone call he received on January 5, when an unknown caller asked, "Are you still alive then? They are getting your shroud ready?"
Such threats are taken seriously by the HRA, which has lost ten members in armed attacks over the past decade. In 1998 its president Akin Birdal was nearly fatally wounded in such an attack. The bullet-scarred door of his office stands in the Ankara branch as a reminder.
"The attack on Birdal was prompted by unfounded official allegations. We are concerned because I have seen and heard similar allegations against the HRA while carrying out my investigations here," said Sugden. "Under the U.N. Declaration on Human Rights Defenders, these people have not only a right, but a duty to document the truth about violations when they occur. It is the Turkish government's duty to protect and encourage human rights activists in their work, not to persecute them."
In the wake of the prison raids, five branches of the HRA have been closed-Izmir, Van, Gaziantep, Malatya, and Konya. On December 17, the Istanbul branch was raided and board members detained for several hours.
On January 6, Lutfi Demirkapi, president of the Ankara local branch of the HRA, was detained while attempting to make a press statement next to the human rights monument in the city center. He told Human Rights Watch: "I was grabbed by police officers and put in a police van with relatives of prisoners held at Ankara's Sincan F-type prison. The police kicked and beat the others. We were all taken to Ankara Police Headquarters and made to stand for five hours leaning against a wall. There were two women over fifty years of age and they were treated just the same."
Nimet Tanrikulu was detained together with Istanbul branch president Eren Keskin, a lawyer, and other branch members. After a night in police custody she was formally arrested, together with three members of the Freedom and Solidarity Party (ÖDP). She is now held at Bakirkoy Prison for Women and Children.
Those detained had been visiting the headquarters of the Democratic Left Party (DSP), the party of the Turkish Prime Minister Bulent Ecevit, where they had attempted to leave a black wreath as silent criticism of his role in the opening of new prisons.
For more information, please see:
Turkey: Isolation and Beatings in New Prisons Must Stop Now (HRW and Amnesty International Press Release, January 6, 2001) at http://www.hrw.org/press/2001/01/turkey0105.htm Turkey: Focus on Human Rights (HRW Focus Page) at http://www.hrw.org/campaigns/turkey/index.htm |
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19 Jan 01 - 08:49 AM (#377656) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: alison thanks Fibula....... I lived through it in Belfast too....... you put my feelings across better than I could...... slainte alison |
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19 Jan 01 - 09:14 AM (#377676) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,Indigo Thanks Fibula. I agree. Indigo |
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19 Jan 01 - 09:20 AM (#377679) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Cheers guys. |
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19 Jan 01 - 10:09 AM (#377720) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: paddymac Dave - You have my respect and admiration, and I am honored to take your "virtual" hand in mine, in the same spirit in which it is extended. Fibula - I believe that every sentient being abhors violence, and for such people, the resort to violence comes only when it is forced upon them. The great need is to resolve the causative issues. That requires somebody to lower their arms and be willing to find another, more rational path. That one side has taken that first step is evident. That the other side has not responded in good faith is, sadly, also evident. If I may, a toast, please, to people of clear minds and good hearts everywhere. May they commit their minds and hearts to finding that better way, and work to resolve the underlying inequities which inevitably breed violence. |
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19 Jan 01 - 10:29 AM (#377733) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Dave the Gnome Thanks, Paddymac. It realy means more to me than you can imagine. If we can now get the 'powers that be' to see it the same way we can get this peace show on the road! My knowledge of traditional Irish salutations is limited to say the least but my one and only is very apt here May the road to hell grow mossy for the want of your feet... I think it says it all and, once again, all the best to everyone who is helping in the peace process. Dave the Gnome |
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19 Jan 01 - 12:08 PM (#377809) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Big Mick I am very proud of this community. I have always wanted to prove that honorable people of good faith, from across all the ideological divides and perspectives, can discuss this in a way that leads to peace and understanding. Sometimes that means picking the scab so that the natural inclination to forget injustice doesn't take over. But the time comes and goes for that tactic, and when the communities, express a willingness and desire to move on to the next step......at that moment wise men and women recogize it and move to the next step. That time has come to the Mudcat. I hear uncommon wisdom in the words of Dave, Fibula Mattock, and Larry (InOBU). McMoo has always had my respect. I would like to mention also Penny and Sapper. I already know the heart of Alison, and hers is a uniquely Irish perspective. Let us resolve to move forward on this issue. It is not necessary, or even desirable, to forget the past. What is important is the motives in moving forward. It is too much to expect people that have passionately and generationally embraced a point of view to just put it aside. It is the melding of these points of view that will create the foundation of a lasting peace. But it is not to much to expect them to understand that the people of the North of Ireland from all perspectives have spoken. They want peace, they want they rule of law, and they expect the weapons to remain silent. Those that seek to subvert the peace process are doing so from a sense of desperation. This battle they will lose. Larry, I support the humanitarian approach that you have taken. Thanks for consistently being a voice of understanding on issues that, by their very nature, are confusing. I am glad you are here. All the best, Mick |
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19 Jan 01 - 01:01 PM (#377865) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Grab Paddymac, I'd like to put in a word for the British government, if you don't mind. Both sides were given the opportunity to sort out their differences in a democratic manner, but refused to do so. The walk-out from the NI parliament by both sides bcos they both thought the British government was favouring the other side tends to demonstrate that - I've heard journalists say that when you get equal criticism from both sides of the argument, you've been fairly impartial! If the Unionists and Republicans simply refuse to form a joint parliament, there really isn't much that the British government can do about it except to start governing NI themselves again. Note that I'm not trying to defend anything in the past - much of it is indefensible, and I won't pretend I'm not ashamed of some of the things done in the name of the country I live in. But to say that the British government and the RUC are beating and murdering ppl, now, today, contradicts the facts - it just ain't so. Certainly there are murders going on - these appear to be committed by extremist terrorists on both sides of the divide. The punishment beatings are still going on from the "normal" IRA and UVF, and several families have been forced to flee their homes after IRA members came in and told them to leave or be killed. Don't forget that the "paramilitary" organisations run drug-dealing, prostitution and protection rackets to finance themselves, and the guys running these are fighting for their criminal livelihoods, not for any cause. I will second you and InOBU in appreciation of those (on all sides) who used peaceful methods to demonstrate against the violence - I respect them for their strength and courage, and I believe that their cause was and still is a good one. Grab. |
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19 Jan 01 - 01:49 PM (#377904) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: McGrath of Harlow The death of the hunger strikers was the beginning of the end for the division of Ireland, I believe and hope.
But it'll be a long time coming. And I don't just mean partition - that's a line on a map and it could go, and the division would remain. And for that matter it could stay and the division could be ended - two sister republics could get along fine, if the underlying division had healed.
Relying on violence as a way to force a victory, if ever that's the way, it's not the way in a struggle like this. Endurance and determination and a refusal to accept be beaten has always been what determines the outcome. That was true in 1916, and in the Troubles in the Twenties, in spitre of everything, and in the more recent ones. The deaths of the ten hunger strikers did more to move things forward than the deaths of hundreds of British Soldiers, or RUC or Loyalists, or poor bloody civilians caught in the crossfire and the bombing.
In fact, where the deaths of the hunger strikers moved things forward, the other deaths repeatedly and consistently moved them back again.
So they should be remembered and honoured - but not used in any way to preserve the divisions, but rather to heal them. And if we listen to the men who survived the hunger strike, that's what they are saying.
There's a quote from a long poem by an Engishman, G.K.Chesterton that I've been reminded of. It's from the Ballad of the White Horse, and it's King Alfred in disguise as a minstel talking to the leaders of the Danish invaders who are occupying Wessex:
That though we scatter and though we fly,
That though you hunt the Christian man |
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19 Jan 01 - 01:49 PM (#377905) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Peter K (Fionn) First, some thread creep: Fubula, I tried sending you a PM recently,but I've noticed you're logging on as a guest. I've got a pal who's moved to a place about three miles beyond Kilkeel, towards Greencastle. Are you aware of any sessions around Rostrevor, Warrenpoint or even Kilkeel? Maybe you could send a PM, or reply here and corrupt the thread some more. But back to the subject, and Larry, I'm with you 100 per cent on most human-rights issues, and in fact most social justice issues, if I'm interpreting InOBU correctly. And thanks for the stuff about Turkey. But there's a world of difference between that and the situation in Ireland. I've been following the plight of the Kurds for years, and it's an international scandal. But Turkey gets away with murder (literally) because it has the second biggest army in NATO, and its army is holding the dreaded muslims in check. The US, which is so quick to bully Chile, Cuba, Somalia, etc, will not do a damn thing about Turkey - while Britain, France, Germany etc can't wait to get Turkey into the European Union. The Irish case you cited doesn't begin to compare - it just risks devaluing the hunger strike as a weapon.(We've got a hunger striker in England too, by the way - Ian Brady. But he's classed as mentally ill, so that makes it OK to force feed him.) It's ridiculously emotive to describe any Irish prisoner these days as "incarcerated" - true as it may have been of Kilmainham and the rest in years gone by. Similarly it is unhelpful as well as wildly misleading to describe the present day Northern Ireland as an apartheid statelet, as someone did - just as it would be to describe the southern states that way. (If the term has currency anywhere in the civilised west, it would be in Australia's "deep north" - about which we get to hear very little, here in the UK.) It's always rankled with the Provisionals, that Mandela and the ANC would not embrace their cause, on the grounds that they were fighting a democracy, which NI clearly has been, certainly for 20 years or more, albeit with the massive flaw of a police force that needs wholesale reform. If we all want to see peaceful co-existence in the six counties, we surely applaud Sorcha's reluctance to send cash in that direction, if there is a chance the cash could go on guns and semtex. Once there is peaceful co-existence, and proper democratic values, what the hell will it matter whether the administration is based in Dublin, Belfast, London or Brussels? I've never understood socialists getting hung up about nationalism. Which reminds me: remember BICO, Larry? Wonder if they outlasted the CPGB? |
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19 Jan 01 - 02:17 PM (#377938) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Hi Fionn: I posted the piece about the Danny McCalister as it was posted to me, unedited. The point in realationship to Hunger Strike commemorations is not the argument over whether or not he is an internee or a convict. The point is, what ever the standard of human rights expectation, compationate parol in the case of death or illness is a common expectation, which is often witheld when there is a political nature to the offence. Even here in the United States, when Father Pat Mullony's addopted son was murdered, he was denied compationate parol, though he was a modle prisoner, who had been out on leave until sentencing, and denial of leave to bury his son was obvious a punishment for his political views, (as was his convicition and frameup in the first place). My best recollection, these many years later, is that even at the hieght of the armed resistance, during the 1981 hunger strike, family members were allowed to attend the funerals of immidiate family. I would point out that the many members of the families of the ten men who died in 1981, are asking that letters be written to Mr. Ahern, to grant compationate leave. All the best Larry |
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19 Jan 01 - 10:50 PM (#378257) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU So far, in the US, there are committees underway in NYC/NJ, San Fran CA, Seattle/Washington state, Washingtown DC, Boston MA, Arizonia,
And hopefully we can get things going in Chicago and Texas. |
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20 Jan 01 - 12:01 AM (#378289) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Sarah2 I think the one of the most chilling books I've ever read is May the Lord in His Mercy Be Kind to Belfast, because the vast majority of the people interviewed seemed to believe that their lives were normal. And I only wish that the good people there who have spoken with their votes would recognize two things: 1) The people who persist now in using violence to attain political ends are not "partisan heroes" anymore: they're criminals. It's up to "the neighborhood" to support the law, the peace process. This is true in any neighborhood in the world. In a country of generations brought up on the evils of "informing," this will surely be a hard pill to swallow. But reporting crime is NOT "informing," and never will be: if we want peace, we have to stand up for it ourselves. 2) Nothing is written in stone and compromise can be a good, nay excellent thing, making half the people involved feel that the movement is forward, and the other half feel that a change is minor, tentative, and not so threatening. End of rant. InOBU, will email to see about further information. I'm curious about how the commemmorations events are formatted/planned. Sarah |
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20 Jan 01 - 04:57 AM (#378339) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Fiolar To Fionn: Come on - you can't compare Ian Brady to say Bobby Sands surely. Brady was the chap who with Myra Hindley tortured and murdered innocent children. The pair are known as the Moor's Murderers. They killed for the enjoyment of killing. Bobby and his compatriots died because they believed that what they were doing would result in something better. |
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20 Jan 01 - 09:37 AM (#378392) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU I would also question the observation that there was democracy in the North of Ireland. In fact, when you have a large number of prople in the community forced, violently into mirgration to other nations, enough, in fact, to change the balence of political power, then the maintainence of a majority is called into serrious question. In fact, many in the IRA and INLA were quite committed to the goals of the ANC, yet were outspoken about their objection to Necklacing as a crime against humanity. I was involved in a disscussion with an INLA ex-volunteer, who was reduced to tears while expressing his objection to torture killing by anyone in a war. I realize that this may lead to knee jerk reactions that, wel the INLA did X, Y and Z, but don't read into this more than I have said. I again say, as I have said in the past posts, that talking about the past is the best way to defuse the harm, especially if all THREE parties come to the table with an honest attempt to create an understanding of history. In order for there to be a truth and reconcilation process in Ireland, we need England at the table with the Stalker report, open and available. Best wishs for peace. Larry |
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20 Jan 01 - 09:59 AM (#378399) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Jimmy C I did not want to get into this as my emotions run wild on issues like this. A few statements regarding the hunger strike deaths, I was deeply saddened when those men died, sorry for their families, sorry for Ireland but more sorry because the republican movement had less men. I admire the stand they made, having an ancestor apparently die the same way many years ago. Some of the above responses are all about democracy etc, etc. Many seem to forget that democracy was never practiced in Ireland, It was not a democratic process when the country was divided against the vast majority of the people. It was not democracy when the catholic majority in Derry city were virtually shut out from all local government positions and housing allotment. Was it democracy at the Belfast shipyards when 40% of the people accounted for only about 8% of the jobs (lower paying ones at that) ?. What happened to civil rights when the large "Ormo" Bakery had a banner across their main doorway that read" No Catholics Hired Here" or words to that effect. All this while the Westminster Government stood by in silence. Now many people above state that they abhor violence, we all do or should, but the fact remains that the British stood by and watched a protestant state for a protestant people be set up and governed for years by a bunch of anti-catholic bigots. When a past Premier of N.Ireland (Basil Brooke) stated that he would not employ a catholic nor " have one about his place" our so called parent government in Westminster again remained silent. I left Ireland 3 years before the trouble started, because I could not see myself bringing my children up to be treated as 2nd class citizens like I and my brothers were. There was vast denial of basic civil rights for 50 years and the British Authorities did nothing about it, and that my friends is the truth. This would not have been allowed to happen in Swansea, London, Glasgow, Birmingham or anywhere else, but it was ok for Ireland. That is why we have the troubles, even the meekest form of life will turn angry if pushed enough. And I believe that because international images suffer, thanks to television and radio, when news can be sent across the world in a matter of minutes instead of days, they would still not do anything about it. I truly pray that the peace process gets back on track and a solution is found for the citizens there to live a normal life, although I also believe that when these Unionists democrats who talk about the "VAST MAJORITY" (which is not as vast as they think) when this "VAST MAJORITY" become a minority they will not bow to democracy and abide by the will of the people for a united country. They will instead bring out their guns and bombs again, probably with some secret british backing to fight to remain British. I also believe the I.R.A. should guarantee that their guns will not be used to break the peace. However all must realize that sooner or later those guns are going to be needed to ensure "DEMOCRACY" and needed in the not too distant future, The vast majoity that is mentioned many times on the T.V. and in the newspapers does not exist. I would be surprised if the loyalist made up more tha 55% if the total population today. They are not a vast majority in Derry, Armagh, Tyrone or Fermanagh. -- They are the majority in Antrim and Down due mainly to the population of Belfast, but it is definitely not a vast majority. Like it or not, the nationalist will be the majority within a generation or two. When the flag of a united Ireland is flying all over Ulster and over Stormont and Belfast City hall then will the sacrificies of the republican dead and all the hunger strikers thoroughout the ages be remembered and never forgotten. Lets all hope and pray for peace in Ireland and throughout the world.. |
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20 Jan 01 - 10:03 AM (#378403) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Dave the Gnome I, once again, agree with Larry (InOBU). Lets stop all this 'he did this, she did that, they did the other'. In my earlier post I said the only way forward is to put the past behind us. Remember that if you try to move forward while looking behind you will inevitably walk into a hard, and sometimes painful, obstacle. Big Mick said he was proud that this commmity. I am as well. Lets not spoil it by raking up the ashes of what should be a long dead flame. People of Belfast, let us know what we, the peaceful masses of the UK, can do to help stop the violence and I, for one, will do my best. Cheers once again DtG
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20 Jan 01 - 10:05 AM (#378405) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Dave the Gnome Should read 'proud of this community' of course... Dave the grammar correcting Gnome! |
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20 Jan 01 - 10:06 AM (#378406) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Nynia For background info try Click here This may be the best song re the hunger strike (I make no political comment about the situation in Ireland past, present, or future) The Ballad Of Joe McDonnell. Oh my name is Joe McDonnell, from Belfast town I came, a city I will never see again For it was in the town of Belfast, I spent many happy days, I love that town in oh so many ways It was there I spent my childhood, and I found for me a wife, I then set out to make for her a life Oh but all my old ambitions, met with bitterness and hate, I found myself inside a prison gate And you dare to call me a terrorist, while you look down your gun When I think on all the deeds that you have done You have troubled many nations, divided many lands You have terrorised their people, you rule with an iron hand You have brought this reign of terror to my land Through the many months of internment in the Maidstone and the Maze, I thought about my land throughout those days Why my country was divided, why I was trapped in jail, in-prisoned without crime or without trial And although I love my country, I am not a bitter man, but I see cruelty and injustice at first hand So on that fatal morning, I shook both freedoms hands, for right or wrong I tried to free my land Then one cold October morning, trapped in a lions den, I found myself in prison once again I was escorted to the h-blocks, for fourteen years or more, on the blanketed conditions they were poor So a hunger strike we did commence, for the dignity of man, but it seems that no-one cared or gave a damn But now I am a saddened man, I watched my comrades die, if only people cared or wondered why no chorus May god shine on you Bobby Sands, for the courage that you have shown, may your glory and your name be widely known And Francis Hughes, and Ray McCreesh, who died unselfishly, Patsy O'Hara, the next in line is me And those who come behind me, may your courage be the same, and pray to god my life is not in vain Oh sad and bitter was the year of Ninteen Eighty-One, for everything I've lost and nothing's won Oh my name is Joe McDonnell, from Belfast town I came, a city I will never see again Nynia |
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20 Jan 01 - 10:19 AM (#378408) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Dave the Gnome Beatiful words, Nynia. Do you have the music or can you recommend a recorded version? DtG |
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20 Jan 01 - 11:20 AM (#378437) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Jimmy C Dave, It's too bad all Brits are not like you, then we would have the problem solved, unfortunately the problem today is a Unionist Population that think their way of life in the 6 counties can go on forever, this , coupled with a mindset of some U.K. politicians that they still have an empire. When they realize that their days in Ireland and some other places are numbered and that the British Empire for good or for bad is a thing of the past, then some progress can be made. The english people can ensure that they elect politicians who are going to say to the Unionist in the 6 counties "Look here chaps, we have had enough of this island, we are not prepared to commit any more resources and money to keep this place going the way you would like it to." "We are therefore severing the Irish/English connection as of 12 midnight on such and such a date. period. And if you want to have any type of peaceful existence in the future, you better make up with your republicans neighbours and you better do before the deadline expires." Dave, this is what the english can do, make it an electon issue,make it an economic issue, make it an issue whereby english taxpayers' money is not being spent on Ireland. I believe it is costing millions per day at the moment, I'm sure the taxpayer does not want his hard earned money spent that way, I'm also sure that the majority of decent English people want nothing more to do with Ireland. make that voice be heard. do not vote for anyone who is prepared to put this on the back burner otherwise more Irish and English lives will be lost. Thanks for your concern |
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20 Jan 01 - 11:36 AM (#378442) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU I have always been fond of the Ballad of Joe McDonald, though I have always sung it, as I learned it, not "for right or wrong", but "for the workers I would fight..." and not may your glory etc. in the Boby Sands verce, but "may your writings and your deeds be widely known..." I probubaly have some sticky version or another... Dave, to be most accurate, I agree that the process of truth and reconcillation begins - not with "You did... and I want you to say you are sorry before I speak to you." but with "I did... for this reason and know I ask you forgive me so we can build together" - So it is a looking back, but a looking back to create understanding, not to rub the other's nose in the past. Actually, Jimmy, I was surprised to find a real change of feeling in England a few months ago. In the south east, where there was real anti Irish feeling ten years back, they are now rediscovering their Celtic roots, and playing bands like "After Hours". I think the majority problem in England, like in the US, was apathy, looking the other way as their government did terrible things, though there is a deep set undercurrent of anti catholism that persisits in a large number of English people, a reverberation of their own civil war - but I would say that in my experience that is a minority feeling, though a large minority. all the best Larry |
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20 Jan 01 - 12:06 PM (#378454) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Jimmy C Well I'm glad to hear about the change of feeling. Here's hoping it grows. slan |
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20 Jan 01 - 01:13 PM (#378483) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Sarah2 Nynia, what a powerful song...we need the tune here, more than one of us! Where can we get a recording? My Irish heritage played a large part in my upbringing, resentment of the English being part and parcel of it. As the old "joke" went, I was almost 10 years old before I learned Damned Brit was two words. Asking an Irishman to forget the past is like asking an Irishman not to be so flippin' political all the time; some things are visceral. "Let Erin Remember" isn't just a catch-phrase but is part of the makeup of a culture stretching back to the first Celts landing on the shores of the island. Harboring the bitterness is another matter, though: I have to believe that history is for us to learn from, sometimes to celebrate, sometimes to serve as a warning -- as in the lessons learned from the vengeful Treaty of Versailles and what it spawned -- but history as a tool to foster resentment and hatred is just plain wrong. Like Lar Redmond, I've never actually met the Englishman I'm supposed to loathe and despise. Without exception, the ones I know have turned out to be decent people who shake their heads and say, "I don't know what we're doing there. I don't see it at all, and I'd vote for any (expletive omitted) politician who'd work to get us out of there." I suspect that JimmyC is right in the premise that the movement to get the English government out of Ireland needs to begin in England. Those are the voices Parlaiment will heed -- the voices of those who can deny them their jobs. Speaking from our own horrific experiences during Viet Nam, it's when the average man begins to speak out and question his government that the politician begins to listen. So Dave, I'd humbly suggest that you consider making the issue a part of your pub conversation, asking your mates how they feel about the mess Randolph Churchill left behind. Just to start is at least to start. End of second rant. Sarah |
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20 Jan 01 - 01:31 PM (#378491) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: McGrath of Harlow I am pretty certain that if at any time in the last 50 years a referendum had been held in England, or indeed in the whole of the United Kingdom, there would have been a majority for an end to the Union with Northern Ireland. But that's not how politics work, in any country.
I also believe that if the Republican movement had managed to wage a dedicated and sustained campaign using exclusively non-violent methods, that would have got us to the present situation and beyond at least as quickly. I think it would very likely have meant many deaths, but probably fewer than in the campaign that was waged.
But picking over the bones of the past is not what needs to be done now. We could argue forever about what would have been best, and about what might have been possible, and there's no way ever to reach a firm and unquestioned resolution of the argument.
It may well be that within a generation or less there will no longer be a majority of people within the Six Counties who want to retain within the Union. I think most ordinary English people will be very pleased indeed when that happens. But as Jimmy C points out, that could just be the beginning of a new phase of Troubles.
The important thing is not ending partition as such, it is ending the division that underlies it and that brought it about, and that preserves it. I don't mean, of course, that the religious variations should be swept away. What has to gois the absurd idea that differences of religion, and the cultural differences that accompany these must somehow determine peoples sense of nationality.
One thing that might make this easier is the present condition of the English Conservative Party. A major factor in deepening that division for more than a century has been the way that certain elements within that party have exploited the existing division by "playing the Orange Card". This has been repeatedly done cynically, and without the slightest regard for the well-being of any of the people of Northern Ireland. But the Orange card is no longer a card that counts for much in England - and by the time the Conservatives can realistically hope to be back in power it will count for even less.
But above and beyond those kind of considerations there is the challenge to the people of Ireland to heal the historic division. And that means that, whatever may have been the case in the past, violence of any kind, even in the face of provocation can no longer play any positive role. |
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20 Jan 01 - 02:22 PM (#378515) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Hi Kev: Pols taken show that you were right. The majority of the English people wanted out of Ireland for a variety of reasons. We should also remember the bravery of the Troops Out movement, the British equivalent to the Viet Nam Veterines Against the War. The troops out movement was made up of ex-soldiers who often went beyond saying it was not good for us to have been there, but we were forced to do wrong and for the good of our national soul we should be out. Best ot all Larry |
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20 Jan 01 - 02:51 PM (#378532) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Sarah2 McGrath, you've touched upon the point that is most difficult for people in the U.S. to understand -- the religion-based partisanship. The idea of Protestants and Catholics being able to kill each other, or even dislike and distrust each other because of their church affiliation is just beyond us. My neighbor might worry that I'm going to hell because I'm not a member of his/her church, and may irritate and bore me to tears proselytizing, but hate me? kill me? We can't credit it, somehow, nor the inability to see beyond it. One of the really frightening parts of May the Lord in His Mercy Be Kind to Belfast is the section on how people in North have small ways of discovering each other's denomination without actually asking: What dry cleaner someone recommends, what pubs you frequent, etc. -- and how terribly important it is to relationships. I know it's there; I know it's (to Americans) disproportionately important. But I cannot fathom it. Sarah |
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20 Jan 01 - 03:11 PM (#378539) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU As an Anglo Irish Protestant, I would say that the prejudice is one sided. I have NEVER experinced prejudice from anyone in the Catholic or Nationalist community in the North of Ireland. It is with great happyness that I also tell everyone, Danny McAllister has ended his hunger strike, after comming to an agreement with the Dublin Government. All the best Larry Otway |
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20 Jan 01 - 03:31 PM (#378549) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Sarah2 Now that is a cause for rejoicing. Sarah |
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20 Jan 01 - 04:44 PM (#378592) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: McGrath of Harlow Religion is the badge, but it's not what it's about, any more than it is in Palestine or in former Yugoslavia.
Or rather religious affiliatiion come into it, but not religious beliefs. Thee's been instilled into Protestants of the North a fear that a break from Britain would mean dangerous change. For some it's a fear of a loss of privilege, for others it's a fear of persecution, and a loss of their separate identity and culture, of which religion is a part.
And the truth is, these haven't been totally groundless fears. The Protestant populatiion in the 26 countries has shrunk, not because of direct persecution, but because of things like pressure from the church and the community in mixed marriages for the children to be brought up as Catholics. There's no real reason to think that the Union has had any significant difference which has stopped that happening in the North, but it's been easy to stir up fears.
And one undeniable effect of the IRA campaign over the past generation has been to drive a wedge between the two parts of the community. I was on the Burntollet march in 1969 - and among thye marchers I remember talking to a good number of young people from Protestant backgrounds. The leadership of Civil Rights Movement included the Protestant (from the South) Ivan Cooper.
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20 Jan 01 - 09:50 PM (#378762) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Peter K (Fionn) Kevin (McGrath), me too. Maybe we met along the way? Nynia, thanks for the blue clicky - that's a hell of a useful site. Sarah2, a caveat with your thoughtful post about criminalising the political heroes, etc. The anti-union community has no faith in how the present democracy is policed - and for good reasons, not all of them historical. Ideally policing would have been the starting point - the creation of a non-partisan, high-calibre police force, capable of earning the respect of both communities. It would have given a better climate for progressing the peace initiative. I think Jimmy C and Sarah put too much weight on getting the brits out. The London and Dublin governments, with US support, are constructively engaged in a long-term strategy for achieving stability, and I'm sure this will lead to a united Ireland - unless sovereignty issues are somehow overtaken by the European dimension. Not that if matters where the boundaries fall, if you've got peace and stability. Neither is the solution as simple as telling the unionists where to get off. Those who think that way might keep in mind that if they'd been born into unionist families, they'd probably have a unionist mindset themselves. It's an irrational, even desperate mindset - but entirely consistent with a seige mentality. Push the prods too hard, and they'd fight. Some would die, and those that died would become martyrs, to inspire another generation's sacrifices. Fine if you want war; misconceived if peace is the aim. OK progress may be frustratingly slow,but we're still farther on than I'd have dared hope ten years ago. Lastly (phew!) I can assure Fiolar I was not likening Brady to Sands! Just making the point that not all hunger strikes have equal merit. |
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21 Jan 01 - 12:10 AM (#378832) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Sarah2 McGrath, your second and third paragraphs illustrate what it is there that boggles the mind over here. We just can't get the idea of interdenominational persecution or intimidation. Too many generations have passed since we faced religious division on that scale. If an engaged couple of different denominations here faced a Catholic priest who insisted their children be brought up Catholic, they'd laugh in his face and go find a priest with a brain. Or take the offspring to both churches and let them make up their own minds when they're old enough to consider their beliefs and how they want to practice them. But the religious upbringing of the children would be decided by the couple, not by any church. Employers here can't ask your religion, let alone your denomination, when you apply for a job. It's not a question you face at the border entering the U.S. It's not even something you'd introduce into a conversation at first meeting, or inquire of the person who introduces you -- in fact, it's considered intrusive to ask; people would assume you're about to proselytize. Fionn, my concern with the British presence is that, because they're British, they seem to exacerbate the anger and prolong the mistrust. French, Scandanavian, Japanese: probably any other policing force on earth would be more trusted by both sides. And I'll freely concede that a rerun of the events of the '20s in the south is all too probable in the current climate. It's a dicey situation all around, with people who were vociferously espousing Unionism/Republicanism suddenly jockying for power in a regime that doesn't even exist yet. I just wonder whether the British government, because of their none-too-snowy history with the Irish, are the ones to be guiding the transition. Sarah |
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21 Jan 01 - 11:01 AM (#378988) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: McGrath of Harlow "Too many generations have passed since we faced religious division on that scale. If an engaged couple of different denominations here faced a Catholic priest who insisted their children be brought up Catholic, they'd laugh in his face and go find a priest with a brain."
Not that many generations, especially when it comes to "mixed marriages". My mother-in-law's family were years getting over it when she married a Catholic. And thta was in England.
But the division in Northern Ireland can be seen as analogous to the black/white division in America - it's an essentially superficial and irrelevant difference, pigmentation or religious affiliation, dividing people who are remarkably similar in what really matters, but it's been made a marker for where any individual fits into a society divided by history and injustice. |
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21 Jan 01 - 12:20 PM (#379015) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Sarah2 McGrath, I'm talking about the U.S. as "here." I understand you still have denominational prejudice hangover in England. I won't say it doesn't exist here, but it's happily very, very rare. And, as a big country, one can always move away from the in-laws. Far away. But I can begin to get a glimmer of understanding, when you speak of racial division. The KKK today is much more underground than a few generations ago, of course, but one can remember when they were blatantly present in some states. Their leanings are no less violent than before, though. The change is in their neighbors, who see them as pariahs today, not knights preserving the "grand" social structure of the South or the "natural order." People who live on hatred sadden me. How draining it must be to wake with anger in the heart each day. Sarah |
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21 Jan 01 - 12:37 PM (#379030) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: McGrath of Harlow "Many generations" to me would mean at least 75 years, and that's stretching it a bit, since it's only trghree generations. I don't think you'd have had to look far to find pretty fierce religious antagonisms in 1926 USA. In fact wouldn't that have been in the heyday of the KKK? Which was down on Catholics as well as Jews and black people, as I understand it.
And of course Ian Paisley got his "doctorate" from Bob Jones University a lot more recently than that.
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21 Jan 01 - 01:10 PM (#379046) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Keith A of Hertford Larry and Sarah, a couple of things I cannot let pass. "..a deep set undercurrent of anticatholicism .." and "..denominational prejudice hangover in England" I am 51 years old and have lived here all my life. I have honestly never come across any such feelings in any English person I have ever met. In Glasgow and in Fermanagh (the only Irish county I hve visited), but never in England. Also I don't believe that even our politicians want to hold on to the 6 Counties, they bring us nothing but pain and crippling drain of resources. The likely bloodbath that would follow a pull out are just too frightening |
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21 Jan 01 - 02:22 PM (#379070) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Sarah2 But, McGrath, religious antagonism spilling over into violence such as found in the KKK, is an aberration. Those guys are much more concerned with what they perceive as "racial purity." (As if one could find any such thing in this country!) Yeah, they're down on Catholics and Jews, but their Jewish thing is race-based. Part of their dislike of Catholicism is because the KKK is a "secret" organization, with rites and great swearings never to divulge this or that -- a real no-no to the Catholic church. The KKK rejects any organization that rejects them. Keith: What would happen if the Prince of Wales announced an impending conversion to Catholcism? Would it really be "ho-hum" -- or would Parlaiment erupt in flames? The Irish here are not the only ones who come to this side of the pond who tell me how they can't get over how little a person's religion matters here -- the English do, too. (This is really getting into high thread creep...) Sarah |
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21 Jan 01 - 03:40 PM (#379107) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Keith A of Hertford No Sarah, Parliament would not eruot in flames. There are some quirks in the constitution that would have to be sorted out, but no ecitement. They were widely and calmly debated in our media again just recently. Again honestly, a person's religeon doesn't matter here at all either. |
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21 Jan 01 - 04:11 PM (#379126) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Keith A of Hertford Would you be surprised to know, Sarah, that our Prime Minister's wife is Catholic, that he attends church with her and their children are being brought up as Catholics? |
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21 Jan 01 - 07:29 PM (#379250) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: McGrath of Harlow Well of course the KKK was an aberration. But back in the 20s it was a pretty popular aberration in some places, and not just the South.
What I'm meaning really to get at is that there's no justification for people elsewhere thinking that Northern Ireland is wildly different from where they are. The lines get drawn in different places with different excuses. "Race" is one way to do it, religion is another, and we are quite capable of thinking up new ones. In India it can be caste, in Ruanda it came down to height. Sometimes it's how people dress, or how they wear their hair.
There are always reasons that can set one lot of people against another, and they seem silly reasons to people, who aren't caught up in it, and it's easy to think that where we are is so much wiser and less bigoted. And we forget so quickly – "many generations".
If Prince Charles became a Catholic? The constitutional pundits would freak. It's not just a question of British Law, which currently outlaws a Catholic becoming King - there are all those other countries that theoretically share the same Head of State, so they are knotted into it as well. And his mum definitely wouldn't like it.
But I doubt very much indeed if most people in England would give a monkey's toss. There'd probably be some people saying, let's use this as a chance to drop the Monarchy, but that's be more to do with disliking the Monarchy than with having hang-ups about a Catholic Monarch. (After all, the leader of the Labour Party is virtually a Catholic, the leader of the Liberal Party is a Catholic, and so is the woman whom I'd put my money on to be the next leader of the Tory Party.)
But if it turned out that the Unionists in Northern Ireland refused to remain in the Union with a Catholic King, I think support for having a Republic in the rest of the UK would rapidly diminish. Having a Catholic King would be seen as a small price to pay for that, even among people who don't like Catholics. |
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21 Jan 01 - 08:18 PM (#379272) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Peter K (Fionn) Not to mention the Tory ex cabinet minister Chris Patten, who led the review of the RUC. Blair not only attends mass, but to the horror of some catholic clerics he has even partaken of the holy bread (I don't think you get wine at catholic mass these days). As he is uninstructed in the faith, it's unlikely that the bread turns to flesh in his mouth. Keith is spot on about religion in Britain, Sarah. It provokes monumental indifference in most quarters (as does the monarchy BTW). In fact all over western Europe, religion is on the wane, and good riddance. America is massively more religious,and getting worse. Few things stick in my craw like that santimonious sign-off: "God bless you. And god bless America." And surely it's only a matter of months since Dubbya caused uproar in catholic circles by visiting the very university Kevin mentioned? |
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21 Jan 01 - 09:43 PM (#379314) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU A careful reading of my post whould show I said a large minority and an undercurrent of anti catholic feeling. Let me give a few examples. It is not the overt wont hire catholic prejudice of the northern counties of Ireland, but rather a certain discomfort. The other day, my dearest oldest friend and I were driving to london, and discussing the pending marrige of his daughter. Knowing my wife is a Catholic, he still said in surprised anger, when I mentioned his daughter was joking about learning catichisms... "He's going to make a Catholic out of her!!!" He was really disturbed! I mentioned this to my mother, and she told me that my VERY progressive anglo Irish father once confided in her that his greatest fear was that his sons would marry Catholics. In fact, both his sons did, because my father was remarkable enough, not only to hide his prejudices from us, but actively encourage us to work for Catholic rights. He, in fact, in the end, was the one who convinced my wife to accept my proposal of marrage. But, it is that which I refer to as an undercurrect in the culture. The discomfort with catholism which some, even progressive english people feel from years of subtle messages and not so subtle messages from a state religion. I do belive that it is passing in generations younger than mine. I hope so. All the best Larry |
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22 Jan 01 - 01:46 AM (#379421) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: alison It's a long process to breed fear and distrust out of people.... it has been bred into them for generations..... don't trust him he's a catholic / prostestant!!!! but the process is starting and I pray it keeps going ............. when I was home in August, there was supposedly peace, admittedly there weren't bombs going off, but the punishment beating and killings and people being forced out of their homes was still going on... the evening news looked no different than it ever was....... the difference was that it wasn't over religion so much, but over drugs....... gang warfare..... "you can't sell drugs on my patch"...... susan2 ..... I do think my life in Belfast was normal (I was 4 when the troubles started.. I don't remember peace) ...... wouldn't mind reading the book though (publisher etc please)....... and the sussing out of people's religion early on still goes on........ even over here in Australia when you meet an Irish person it happens....
"Where are you from?" the answer you give will usually tell them all they need to know................ but I don't think that people do it out of malice over here... its more so that they don't say anything to offend you........ the most usual way to find out your relgion was to ask you what school you went to, of to ask you to recite the "Lord's prayer", or spell something with an "h" in it.... the most devious time someone tried to suss me out was in a Belfast Hospital... they pretended to need an answer to a crossword puzzle..... "Alison, how do you spell Johannesburg?" (a catholic will pronounce 'h" as "haitch", a protestant will say "aitch", and a catholic will often say "a" as "ah", and a protestant as "ay"......) they didn't find out I spelt it with a combination of both...... it's easy to say give the 6 counties back to Ireland and get the Brits out..... but its not that easy in reality.... and in my opinion would lead to more bloodshed....... slainte alison |
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22 Jan 01 - 04:28 AM (#379438) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Dave the Gnome Introducing a bit of music into the thread - and a bit of an advert for a favourite singer/songwriter of mine - Have a listen to any of the albums (4 now I think) by Anthony John Clarke. Belfast born and bred, now living on the Wirral in England and doing wonderful stuff in the folk scene. Very powerful, pithy and sometimes emotive songs. Not specificaly about the troubles but some having obvious references to them. Anthonys songs are about life and his Belfast childhood and later years are an excelent source of inspiration. Without wishing to sound as if I am knocking traditional Irish music - I love most of it - this is Irish music for and about today. End of thread drift! If anyone wants to start an Anthony John thread feel free - or if anyone wants more info PM me. Cheers DtG |
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22 Jan 01 - 06:00 AM (#379451) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: McGrath of Harlow "The discomfort with catholism which some, even progressive english people feel" says InOBU
Actually in my experience, you're more likely to get it among "progressive people". You'll get sneery and dismissive stuff about Catholics in papers like The Guardian that you'd never get about any other religion. I think Chesterton once said that the real religion of England was anti-Catholicism.
Maybe if I wasn't a Catholic I'd see it as a problem. But I am, and I don't. It's a hangover from something that was much more serious a few generations ago. I've never come up against any discrimination arising from it myself. As InOBU says, people occasionally feel a little nervous - "a slight discomfort".
Of course this overlaps with Irishness, and there's definitely been a fair amount of suspicion and even hostility towards Irish people these last 30 years or so -but that's not surprising in the circumstances, and there's been less than you might have thought. Most of the time it's outbalanced by other attitudes. |
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22 Jan 01 - 07:55 AM (#379473) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Kev: I think that for some, possibly as with Keith, it doesn't come up. As you say,it IS a subtle effect and one that I find comes out a surprising times. Day to day, it might not be a problem, however, like unconcious racism in the US, it can tip the ballence in one's political thinking, and that is when it becomes a problem. Well, back to the origional idea of the thread. Which, all this even music creep is not really off the mark, as Tony is planing to have commemorations include music, of course, and knowing Tony, he is interested in the commemorations sparking discussions of why his brother and the others gave their lives... If there are questions about the purpose of the commemorations, I will pass them on to Tony. I know one of the outcomes hoped for, is a permanant memorial to the memory of the ten young men who died on the 81 Hunger Strike. All the best Larry |
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22 Jan 01 - 08:14 AM (#379479) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Phew - busy weekend on this thread! Fionn - yeah, I'm posting as a guest from work at the mo because it's free, but I'm occasionally on my machine at home from where I am a "proper" member. I'll ask around about sessions in that area - I'm sure there's plenty. Alison - I know what you mean. I've been in England for 4 months now and no one asks you what school you went to or where you grew up - until you meet another Northern Irish person! |
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22 Jan 01 - 08:55 AM (#379497) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,Fiolar Funny how Keith said that being a Catholic doesn't matter in England. Maybe not for many people but laws still on the statute books prevent Catholics from holding many of the top posts. Suppose a Catholic wanted to marry the heir to the throne - tough as no Catholic could become king or queen. As for the six counties, I don't suppose many English would know why they exist. In a recent survey carried out in England on children aged between 11 and 18 a good few thought that Adolph Hitler was the Prime Minister of England during the War (World War 2 that is). Adolph must be laughing his balls off. |
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22 Jan 01 - 10:49 AM (#379562) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Dave the Gnome "Adolph must be laughing his balls off. "???? Surely, in the words of the song he only had one anyway;-) I see your point though, Fiolar. Makes me wonder even more why the fighting continues - no-one realy knows what it is about anymore. DtG |
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22 Jan 01 - 01:13 PM (#379651) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: McGrath of Harlow And did they know how to spell Hitler's first name Fiolar? |
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22 Jan 01 - 01:33 PM (#379669) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Fiolar To Dave - as Hitler was know to be a believer in astrology perhaps he had foreseen the results of the survey all those years ago and lost it laughing. |
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22 Jan 01 - 06:58 PM (#380000) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Peter K (Fionn) Fiolar, forget the Act of Settlement. It's not worth the paper it's written on, and would not stand being put to the test. A year or two before Di arrived on the scene the Daily Express had the front-page main headline: "Charles to marry Astrid - official" - Astrid being some European princess who happened to be Catholic. The story included reaction from constitutionalists, church leaders. politicians etc, all focusing on how the kids would be brought up - no concern at all that we could have a catholic queen (again). And that was more than 20 years ago - attitudes have progressed much farther since then. InOBU, hostility to catholicism has certainly softened, but you've got to remember that the catholic church has softened, or rather has been forced to soften, its own stance in many ways. (But nowhere near enough for my liking.) And the Irish state has gone far to correct the monumental mistake it made in allowing a church so much influence in its affairs. (Another endorsement of my theory that almost every way, Collins would have served Ireland better than Dev.) I know this present Pope has even sided with Israel against communism, but I don't think he'd have been as quick as Pacelli to seek a concordat with Hitler. Getting back to the thread, these hunger strikes are certainly a graphic endorsement of what our mums always told us: leave a clean plate, or you'll waste away. |
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23 Jan 01 - 08:52 AM (#380397) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Fionn... overlooking the rather bad taste joke about the hunger strike... for my own experinces with the Catholic church, see the song I posted on the Rom song about the holocast thread currently running. All the best Larry |
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23 Jan 01 - 01:12 PM (#380555) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Fiolar To Fionn. I grew a very few miles from where Michael Collins was born and have always mantained that Ireland lost the only real statesman of the twentieth century when he was so tragically killed. I and hundreds of thousands like me most probably would never have had to go to Sean Bui. The hypocrisy of DeValera in condemning the Treaty staggers the imagination.If only he had accepted the fact, what a different situation there would have been. |
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24 Jan 01 - 06:26 AM (#381093) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Brendy Well, Fin, I hope you never have to put your life on the line for something you believe in. No... On second thoughts, I do. Asshole. B. |
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24 Jan 01 - 06:49 AM (#381104) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Peter K (Fionn) Larry, thought you said it was OK to smile? *BG* If only he had accepted the fact, what a different situation there would have been - including a united Ireland, I'm sure of that, Fiolar. And a lot less books banned.
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24 Jan 01 - 08:59 AM (#381174) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Remember when you ask that we understand your hummor, that a few of us on Mudcat knew young men who died on hunger strike, and these posts are also read by several people who lost immidiate family on the 1981 hunger strike. There are no situations where humor about the death of a family member is funny. As much as I abhore the memory of Pat Campbell, the organiser and chief goon of the Shankill Butchers, I would not joke about his death. One may wonder at this in light of what I said about the death of Beckworth. That was not joke. Larry |
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24 Jan 01 - 09:17 AM (#381185) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Big Mick Let me tell you what is wrong with jokes about the great fallen of any side. When you joke about it, it lessens the impact of those deaths on your psyche..........kind of makes it OK. This is not a new thing, the generals have been using the tactic for centuries to get young men to slaughter each other. As much as I agree with Brendy, I hope you never have to be faced with being killed or killing. Both are horrific and frightening experiences. May I relate to you a thing that occurred to me? I was at a party, the craic was fierce, I was down about 4 jars of the dark stuff.........and this rather loud and obnoxious fella (Shamrock Yank) was sitting across the table braggin' about the money he had raised, and how "we had gotten this many Brits, and we had shot down a Brit Chopper.....". I let this jerk go for a bit, but after a while old instincts took over and I could stand no more. Unfortunately, I grabbed him by his neck and pulled him over the table and asked him what the fuck he knew about killing any thing?? And I further inquired, in an ever so gentle way, if he had ever felt the little shudder that a body gives as the soul leaves it?? And I concluded by questioning whether, in his fucking state of supreme enlightenment, he had ever considered that these "Brits" had Mothers, Fathers, Sisters, Brothers, Sons and Daughters that loved them and now were reduced to fucking weeping at a tombstone for a loved who had to fight and die away from their home?????? THAT IS WHAT IS WRONG WITH FUCKING JOKING ABOUT ALL THIS!!!!!!!!!! One should never doubt that I believe that the Republican cause is a just one, and that Ireland, divided, shall never be free. But it is abhorrent to think that one would still think it is OK to ***grin*** over the deaths of people engaged in a struggle for someting that they believe in so strongly that they would engage in cealachan (starving ones self to death at the door of ones enemy). This isn't about the rightness or wrongness of the respective political positions. It is about honoring the memory of brave soldiers. Here's to the warriors, may they fight for just causes, and worthy leaders and may they rest in peace. Mick |
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24 Jan 01 - 09:28 AM (#381187) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Mick ,I agree with you that life is something precious that should never be trivialised, but for that reason I won't toast the warriors of any side. People may be fighting for a cause they believe in, but it's not only those who believe in their struggle that are murdered, and I will never support any cause that believes killing is a path to getting what they want. |
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24 Jan 01 - 09:49 AM (#381199) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Big Mick Nice sentiment, and philosophically I don't disagree. Realistically, as long as their are gangsters on this planet that manage to use their gifts and their armies to force injustice on others, kill them, murder their children............then their will be the need for warriors. Fib, I respect your views, so don't misread this. It is a general statement and not a personal one....those that dream of a world without war are just dreamers. It is a good dream, but not a realistic one. As long as the Hitlers, the Amin's, and others of their ilk are about, their must be warriors. As long as there are people in Westminster endorsing prejudice and discrimination in the North of Ireland, as long as there are people in Washington endorsing genocide against Native Americans, blacks, and innocent Iragi civilians, as long as the Khmer Rouge and others exist.............there must be warriors to battle them on their own terms. I am opposed to the culture that has sprung up that makes that easy to do. I believe old men should have a difficult burden of proof before they send young ones to kill and die. The cause should be clear, the strategy clear, what victory is should be defined.............and our young ones should honor the memories of those they killed, as well as those that died. This is a difficult subject..........and I also honor those like you who fight against ever having to fight again. But when undeniable terror has been unleashed on you, you will be glad for my comrades, the warriors, existence. Respectfully, Mick |
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24 Jan 01 - 10:12 AM (#381223) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Mick, yes, I understand that, I just can't endorse it. Too many people I know and love have lost someone because of another's beliefs. I find it difficult to comprehend the fact that someone could make a conscious decision to take someone's life for an ideaology. I would go to great extremes to defend the people I love. Perhaps if their or my life was in danger, I'd be capable of killing, but to murder with premediataion is just horrifying. I don't believe in god, so I hold life as the most precious thing we have. To me, there's nothing else out there when it's gone, so we have to hold onto life and preserve it wherever possible, because it's all we've got - a wee moment of existence - so how could we ever take that away from someone? |
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24 Jan 01 - 10:39 AM (#381250) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,Youngster It would help me deal with all this if someone who remembers could remind us of the military deeds of the the hunger strikers that led to them claiming to be POWs |
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24 Jan 01 - 10:43 AM (#381256) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Mick : Your experience reminds me of an evening where a fellow, just as you describe, was going on about what he would do to the supper grass, Harry Kirkpatric. Present was a volunteer who had undergone prolonged torture in a British prison. His eyes filled with tears and he said, "Until you've been tortured the way Harry was, you don't have the right to have an opinion on the subject. I hate what he did, and he has to be stopped from informing however it is done. But, until you have been tortured you don't have a right to sit here mouthing off about what you would do to him." Larry |
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24 Jan 01 - 10:48 AM (#381261) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Big Mick Thank God, if you will forgive me for using that oath, that there are people like you out there. Because otherwise the madness would take over, Fib. Don't ever stop. I have plenty of answers for you, but I don't want to convince you to be different. I know the mayhem, I know the madness, I know the sick feeling when looking at someone's lifeless body and wondering at what their dreams were. I also know, in the fullness of time and reflection, that there are battles that must be fought. And that it is the responsibility of the warrior to examine that for which they fight, to determine its justness.............and to do a terrible job because it must be done. And most of all, if we were lucky or maybe not so lucky, to live with our actions for the rest of the days on this earth. Some warriors use different weapons, like their own deaths from starvation. And some warriors.........like yourself..............fight for peace, and against violence. I mean you no offense, rather I am just offering up a blessing in a way that has great significance to me, when I say God Bless you and those like you. To tie back to this thread, I feel that, no matter which side of the ideological divide you are on, that Larry's premise of simply honoring those that chose to pay with the most precious thing they had for a cause that they believed in is a worthy thing. Nuff said from me. Mick |
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24 Jan 01 - 10:48 AM (#381263) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Tinker As a wife and especially as a mother, the sanctity of life is very real to me. Yet, because of that same sense of the Holy in each and every life, when confronted with evil there is a need to act. I've been extremely blessed to live in a time and a place where battles are won and lost in words and not violent actions. Mick I do understand the need for warriors, and I abhor their need while I honor the necessity when there is no other road left untried. Big Mick performed Back Home in Derry as a commemoration at Getaway. And it haunted me until I not only got the lyrics (and his set up) from him and learnt how to play it, but brought it in to my EFM (Education for Ministry) group for Theological Reflection. So you've got a group of middle aged, Episcopal (half former Catholics), struggling over the anguish, the longing and the strength of the prose and the haunt of the tune. No, the power is not in the politics,(perhaps that is the weakest link of all) it is in the strength of conviction of the individual and the burning need to do right for a cause beyond the self. The power is in the ability to keep grounded and not attack others while refusing all the while to deny the underlying principles of your belief. Unfortunately, charismatics come in dark spectrums as well as bright. Commemoration lets us each examin ourselves and our world so we can try to live each day in a way that can prevent the angst, and teach our children to recognize the patterns of history. Some tales are best repeated and not re-lived. Tinker |
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24 Jan 01 - 04:51 PM (#381540) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU The hunger strike was not about politics. It was about arrest without warrent, trial without jury, torture in the jails, a system which - found there was war enough to have a "shoot to kill policy", but did not extend the rights of the Geneva convention to prisoners of war, while at the same time not extending the least internationaly respected rights of civil prisoners. Any one who denies that the British government treated this as a war should think of the image of an SAS soldier, standing, foot on the cheast of a wounded, unarmed, young woman, Mariad Ferrel, (excuse the spelling) in Gibralter, and emptying his full magazine into her face. I am often haunted by the thought of what those young men may have been in days to come, as so many of Irelands leadership started in the same way they did. Condiditons in the prison where such that the hunger strike was a necessity, and one undertook by couragous young men, who undertook the risk and reality of death in order to improve conditions for their comrads. I believe that is what commemoration must focus on. all the best Larry |
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24 Jan 01 - 06:06 PM (#381579) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Peter K (Fionn) Try living in Britain a while, Larry/InOBU, and you'll find that juries are no protection from injustice. Or ask the Maguires. Anyway some of those who demanded political status admitted/boasted what they'd done, so the fair-trial bit wasn't the issue. The issue was whether what they had done was crime. My own view is that some deeds were indeed criminal - some not. (Look at this from the other side: would anyone in this thread care to make a case for Michael Stone, for instance - the guy who slaughtered mourners at a funeral? Was that political, like he says?) BTW,it was when we were discussing the earthquake in El Salvador that you were encouraging me to lighten up, Larry. Maybe we've just got different priorities. Certainly I usually have a chuckle when people blow themselves up with their own bombs, whoever they are. I'd go a bit farther than Fib - this world would have had a lot less hassle if no-one had invented martyrs. Look to the living, Big Mick. And whatever way I depart this mortal coil, feel free to dance on my grave. |
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24 Jan 01 - 06:31 PM (#381589) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Hi Fionn, What I was saying to both you and my dear friend Kevin, was that I was in no way joking about the earthquake in El Salvador. Rather, we DID have a tiny earthquake in New York, gave us all a small rattle, and like the relief of the safe being droped next to you, THAT is funny - only because there was no injury or property damage, not even a cracked tea cup, and what made it more funny, the idea of a relief concert, is that it was the lead story on the news here THAT is funny. I also took offence at the idea the New York, on the issue of earthquakes was as apathetic as Americans often are about many other things. Not only are New Yorkers quick to collect food and relief whenever there is an earthquake, our Police and Fire departments are know world wide for their expertice in extracting injured from fallin buildings, and they go, as units world wide as part of New Yorks official responce to disaster. That is the difference between a joke, - no one hurt, and a joke about death. For some reason, there is a mania in the Anglo/American tradition to come up with a joke about the worst events. We even heard jokes with in hours of the explosion of the space shuttle, and to quote an old Radio personality, "t'aint funny McGee". Wiether any or all were guilty of crime or insurection is not the question, as is not the question of weither or not jurys work. In this nation we have as flawed jurries as anywhere else, HOWEVER, It is generally held in the modern world, that jurries remain the last bastion between the prople and government's political aims. In fact, a good description of what many of the hunger strikers "trials" were like, can be seen in the case of my friend Tony O'Hara, Patsy's brother. He was lifted for aledgedly stealing a car in a bank robbery to raise money for guns for the INLA. He didn't do it. For several weeks they beat him about the head, causing permanent brain injuries. They blindfolded him and took him up in a helicopter, gently coming down, so he did not know he was feet over the ground. They interogated him and when he would not inform, they tossed him from the helicopter. Finally, he agreed to sign a "confession" for which he was given five years in jail. He pointed out the the judge small letters over each word in the confession that spelled out, this was signed under duress. The single magistrate court - when pointed this out, said, "I see Mr. O'Hara is seeking to embarass this court." eh got five years. If this does not offend you, I think there is a problem here that often comes of societies hardend by struggles. Take my word for it, it does not promote good government. As to dancing on graves, we Rom have been known to do that, to celibrate life, not to make fun of the dead. What you do when you joke about the death of another, is to bury them standing. That is a whole nother thing. All the best Larry |
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24 Jan 01 - 07:56 PM (#381650) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Brendy "I find it difficult to comprehend the fact that someone could make a conscious decision to take someone's life for an ideaology" Oh, sure, wasn't that the start of the rot in the first place. B. |
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24 Jan 01 - 11:12 PM (#381806) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU As to taking life for ideolgy, perhaps the writer meant the burning of Cork city, the machine gunning of football crowds by British soldiers, the murder of peaceful demonstrators on Bloody Sunday, the killing of Catholics indescriminantly by the Shankil Butchers, the shooting of Carol Ann Kelly, age 12, point blank in the head by british soldiers, the killing of all the other children killed by British soldiers in revenge killings, I am embarassed to say the names are becoming foggy was it Mary Livingstone, I used to be able to name nine or ten off the top of my head...... or those opposed to those actions, IDEOLOGY????? I don't know... Larry |
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24 Jan 01 - 11:56 PM (#381837) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Lox According to Amnesty International, the IRA are currently running third in the murder league tables. The loyalists are a close second, but the leaders by a clear margin are the British Army. Noone ever talks about British Army atrocities in the North unless they live in the North to begin with. The media has a lot to answer for. lox (I'm just going to go and confirm that I've got this info right) |
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25 Jan 01 - 04:15 AM (#381919) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Dave the Gnome Lets keep this on track guys - it is about the hunger strikers, not the murderers. Regardless of what they had done or allegedly done it took no small ammount of courage to starve themselves to death for their beliefs. As I said earlier - it harmed no-one but themselves and the regime they were in conflict with. It was an honourable sacrifice in the midst of dis-honourable deeds. If only all the 'warriors' had this courage we would have had no need for bombs and bullets or killings and reprisals. Remember them and what they were trying to achieve. Remember also it was a peaceful means to gain the same ends as the bombers and snipers. Had but a major polititian or political leader had the same conviction. Remember what Ghandi achieved by the same means? We are not talking 6 counties here but a sub-continent - and without violence. As to humour and death. I was at a Sean McCarthy memorial concert in Finuge, Listowel, a couple of years ago. An elderly chap told a joke about an IRA officer ticking off one of his snipers for shooting a Black and Tan. "What's wrong with that?" asked the soldier. "You missed the other one" replied the officer..... Switch it round to a British soldier shooting a Provo and everyone is up in arms! Sorry but I don't understand the selective sensitivies here. Cheers and peace to one and all Dave the Gnome |
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25 Jan 01 - 04:50 AM (#381929) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock When I said I cannot comprehend people killing over ideaologies (and yes, I was deviating from the subject and talking about murder in general) I wasn't just picking on a particular faction or section. Furthermore I am not going to look at things from one point of view. There is more than one side to any story, and pointing fingers and saying "he started it" does notjustify extreme retaliation. You don't know me, or what the people I love have been through. And believe me, that covers a lot of stuff on both "sides". And none of them wanted to be part of it. |
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25 Jan 01 - 08:25 AM (#382021) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: McGrath of Harlow Ideology" - manner of thinking characteristic of some economic or political, theory or system
Which really means, what you think is right and what you think is wrong, what you think is true and what you think is false, what you think should be done, and what you think should be prevented from being done.
Those are the reasons people fight each other, and that is always going to happen, because people are always going to disagree about things like that. But what can be done is to find ways of fighting that do not include killing other people.
In extreme circumstances, the deaths of the hunger strikers were examples of one of those ways. The original and still core meaning of the word martyr is "witness", someone who gives witness with their own life. THey were martyrs, and I hope there'll be no more like them in Ireland, and no reason for there to be.
(And InOBU, I wasn't suggesting you were joking in relation to the Salvador disaster, and you'd be the last person I'd ever think that of. But I saw an opening to remind people about that, because with all the headlines crowding each other, about the flotsam of the world like Bush and Blair and stuff like that, it's so easy to miss important things.) |
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25 Jan 01 - 08:47 AM (#382039) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU CERTANLY Understood, and never any offence, Kev... Larry |
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25 Jan 01 - 08:57 AM (#382044) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Wolfgang Lox, I'd be very interested if you could confirm these numbers. The only numbers I know of are quite different (Sutton Index of Deaths in NI: Organisation responsible for deaths:
Republican paramilitary 2031 But I'm willing to learn. Wolfgang |
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25 Jan 01 - 08:58 AM (#382045) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Big Mick Dave and Fib, that was exactly my point. There shouldn't be selective sensibilities. We can argue as to whether these lads were heroic warriors or not, but one cannot deny their valor and purpose. Reading the stories of their death touches one in a profound way. I was only liberated from the misogynistic American upbringing when I came to see my former "enemy" for what they were. Noble warriors who were willing to fight and die for their principles. In recognizing their valor, I came to understand what the "Generals" must perpetuate on us in order to make us kill one another. As I have said, I don't reject war, sometimes it is an necessary evil. But the warriors must be very careful of who they follow and why. I am not asking those who disagree with the Nationalist cause to embrace it. I am asking that you look at these men and evaluate their committment and their final act. By not playing "the Patriot Game", and instead of focusing on the people behind the cause, communication and peace can be fostered. Misty greet the dawn, trees stand guard in the rising sun Peaceful shadows all around, ghostly shapes rise from the ground, Morning waits for me and you, hazy sunlight warms the dew, On these fields that are stained a crimson red, to hug the dying and the dead, There once were soldiers here, but that was many years ago by Brendan Nolan All the best, Mick |
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25 Jan 01 - 09:04 AM (#382053) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,The gnome - some buggers nicked my pc Good man yerself, Mick. Very good point. Very well made and I guess what I was trying to say. Dave the Gnome |
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25 Jan 01 - 10:49 AM (#382152) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Gnome! I send my heart felt condolences on the loss of your PC, and may their lawyer fall asleep at the defense table if they are caught (the worst curse a progressive lawyer can summon up!) Wolfgan, for those numbers to be meaningful in the instance of this conversation, one has to break them down into combatant and non-combatant deaths. Yes, all human life is of equal importance, but in the question on the floor, the difference makes the argument. All the best Larry |
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25 Jan 01 - 10:50 AM (#382154) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Gnome! I send my heart felt condolences on the loss of your PC, and may their lawyer fall asleep at the defense table if they are caught (the worst curse a progressive lawyer can summon up!) Wolfgan, for those numbers to be meaningful in the instance of this conversation, one has to break them down into combatant and non-combatant deaths. Yes, all human life is of equal importance, but in the question on the floor, the difference makes the argument. All the best Larry |
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25 Jan 01 - 11:12 AM (#382185) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Dave the Gnome It's OK, Larry - It was a work one and it has miraculously re-appeared when I wasn't looking.... Wonder how that happened??? Ah well - provided a modicum of light relief anyway. The Gnome is back on line! |
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25 Jan 01 - 01:06 PM (#382276) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Wolfgang Larry, you only can show one aspect in one table, not more. And I have referred to the aspect lox has introduced, namely who is responsible for deaths. On the website there you can do easily all kinds of crosstabulations to find out other interesting patterns. One of the interesting patterns, e.g. is that the Republican Paramilitary has killed a much higher percentage of combattants (British troops, UDA,...) whereas the Loyalist Paramilitary has mostly killed civilians. A selective observation, of course, but it fits well in some of my prejudices about the conflict. Some of my prejudices and observations can be found here. Wolfgang |
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25 Jan 01 - 02:51 PM (#382367) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,keith A of H Larry,you would never lie but you are so selective of the truth that you will mislead such as Youngster who wants to get a balanced picture. In Gibralter the unarmed young woman was a member of an IRA active service unit sent to bomb a band concert.The bandsmen were soldiers but unarmed.Bandsmen only do ceremonial duties.Also there would have been many civilians present. Thank God they were stopped.IRA "soldiers" are usually armed and have never hesitated to gun down unarmed English bobbies to avoid arrest.How nervous would you feel if it was your job to arrest such a person? Still She should have been taken alive as most are, witness the number of IRA prisoners (now all released). In contrast the IRA have executed every single soldier and police officer they have ever taken ,often after such appalling torture far exceeding that which you described.Remember the informer who ,hands bound, threw himself through the glass of a third floor window seeking a quicker death. Which side would you rather be arrested by? The SAS were required to justify their action , and their explanation was not implausible. Their bomb had not been located and the IRA had been using remote control devices at the time. The fear was that they would set it off. If that danger was exagerated, shame on them indeed but it ill behoves the IRA to cry murder when they always use those tactics. Can anyone answer Youngster,s question? It is relevant as the hunger strike was only about whether they should be granted the privillages of a POW |
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25 Jan 01 - 02:52 PM (#382368) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Gnome! I send my heart felt condolences on the loss of your PC, and may their lawyer fall asleep at the defense table if they are caught (the worst curse a progressive lawyer can summon up!) Wolfgan, for those numbers to be meaningful in the instance of this conversation, one has to break them down into combatant and non-combatant deaths. Yes, all human life is of equal importance, but in the question on the floor, the difference makes the argument. All the best Larry |
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25 Jan 01 - 02:55 PM (#382372) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: GUEST,keith A of H Larry,you would never lie but you are so selective of the truth that you will mislead such as Youngster who wants to get a balanced picture. In Gibralter the unarmed young woman was a member of an IRA active service unit sent to bomb a band concert.The bandsmen were soldiers but unarmed.Bandsmen only do ceremonial duties.Also there would have been many civilians present. Thank God they were stopped.IRA "soldiers" are usually armed and have never hesitated to gun down unarmed English bobbies to avoid arrest.How nervous would you feel if it was your job to arrest such a person? Still She should have been taken alive as most are, witness the number of IRA prisoners (now all released). In contrast the IRA have executed every single soldier and police officer they have ever taken ,often after such appalling torture far exceeding that which you described.Remember the informer who ,hands bound, threw himself through the glass of a third floor window seeking a quicker death. Which side would you rather be arrested by? The SAS were required to justify their action , and their explanation was not implausible. Their bomb had not been located and the IRA had been using remote control devices at the time. The fear was that they would set it off. If that danger was exagerated, shame on them indeed but it ill behoves the IRA to cry murder when they always use those tactics. Can anyone answer Youngster,s question? It is relevant as the hunger strike was only about whether they should be granted the privillages of a POW |
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25 Jan 01 - 02:59 PM (#382376) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Grab That site's remarkable, Wolfgang! Larry, the figures you requested, as extracted from the cross-reference facility on that guy's site. I think these tell the story well enough on the civilian dead:-
Casualty \ Killer British Irish Loyalist Not Republican Totals \ security security paramilitary known paramilitary Grab. |
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25 Jan 01 - 03:06 PM (#382382) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Sorry for the double post... Mudcat was down earlier, and I didn't realise the erlier one went through. As a matter of fact, American courts, during extradition hearings found evidence that the SAS did not, as a matter of tactics, take prisoners, that they were, in fact guilty of a shoot to kill policy. It was evidence of this which led US courts to find a prima facia case for political assylum in the Doherty case. I am at a loss to think of an instance of an unarmed Bobbie being gunned down by an IRA member. I would appreciate a name and date. Not to say it isn't so, but, such an event would have likely been raised in the IRA extradition cases here, where US courts found the IRA not to be a terrorist organisation, and as such, until the rewriting of the US?GB extradition treaty, removing the political offence bar to extradition, no IRA members were extradited under the old treaty. England and the US state department used all their mighty resources to prove the IRA was a terrorist organisation and failed. Having failed, they changed the rules. As for SAS answerabilty, the civilian witness to the three murders that day, underwent persicution at the hands of the British government in an attempt to discredit her when she came forward with her account of the murder. I agree, that this is not relevant to the hunger strike commemorations, other than to answer the issue of weither or not they were right in expecting fair treatment under varrious human rights conventions, but it is in deed a tangential issue. Perhaps some one with better computer skills than I may put in a link to Brendy's excellent post on the recent history of the occupation of Ireland for our brother, Yonger. All the best Larry |
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25 Jan 01 - 03:06 PM (#382383) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Grab Oh dear, something's gone very wrong with my post. Correction below (I hope!):- That site's remarkable, Wolfgang! Larry, the figures you requested, as extracted from the cross-reference facility on that guy's site. I think these tell the story well enough on the civilian dead:-
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25 Jan 01 - 03:11 PM (#382387) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Grab What's with this?! I can't seem to get that table to work! Here's another try...
Casualty \ Killer British Irish Loyalist Not Republican Totals \ security security paramilitary known paramilitary Grab. |
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25 Jan 01 - 03:28 PM (#382406) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Well done Grab. Which page of Wolfgang's source is this, I have been trying to find the breakdown as you post it, but the headings I find to be a bit confusing, Thanks Larry |
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25 Jan 01 - 03:35 PM (#382412) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Grab Nearly there - looks like the "pre" tag in Mudcat needs "br" line-breaks defined as well. A preview option might be nice! Anyway, the columns should read "British Security, Irish Security, Loyalist Paramilitary, Not known, Republican paramilitary, Totals". Larry, the IRA planted bombs in shops, both in NI and in mainland Britain, to cause maximum injury to civilians - remember Manchester and London? Omagh, more recently in a crowded street of shoppers? Or the Enniskillin bomb which went off at a Rembrance Day ceremony (remembering Irish dead from the 2 world wars) composed mainly of civilians? That's why the number of civilians the IRA killed is so high - they really didn't care about killing civilians. Witnesses to IRA actions who spoke up were kneecapped, killed or tortured to death. Soldiers captured were tortured to death. I'll back out now - there's nothing I can say that the numbers don't. Grab. |
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25 Jan 01 - 03:41 PM (#382422) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Grab Larry, there's a page called "crosstabs" which cross-references statistics - here. It seems a bit unreliable - some statistics didn't work for me - but that one did. I tried to reformat it to work here, but I was having problems getting the formatting to work properly on my post. The table is "Summary organisation" vs "Summary status". Grab |
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25 Jan 01 - 04:38 PM (#382487) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Thanks Grab. In fact, as you may have noticed I have already spoken of the fact that I spoke out about the Manchester bombing, and several other events at the time they happened and have here on Mudcat. Unfortunatly in armed struggle, such as the American Revolution, (the true story not the one from the movie Patriot!) The struggle against Aparthide in Africa, even the actions of French and Jewish partisans during WW2, one has to weigh the overall policies and options of the times against the horrors of war. I have on mudcat and continue to say, that personaly I think it is no way to make change. However, sometimes war is brought to small nations by huge bullys like the United States and Britain. The aftermath of these wars takes generations to overcome. How long will India and Pakistan, Irac and Iran take to work out the aftermath of US and British involvement in their histories? Well, I'm away, I have an old friend coming over to play a bit of music. Anyone read Alan Feldman's "The Northern Fiddler"? Well, he is quite a musician in his own right. He does have a pention for difficult tunes, so I have to practice a bit before he gets here. All the best Larry |
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25 Jan 01 - 04:43 PM (#382491) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU One more thing about bombs, I don't think they are a justifiable weapon in war, as they are responcible for the new term "colateral damage". I believe that one cannot point to the IRA and say that singles them out as terrorists, while the US and Britain continue to drop the same devices from 30,000 feet. I recall Mr. Majors refering to the IRA men who staged a mortor attack on 10 Downing street, from the center of London and escaping on a motor bike as "cowards", while his lads were dropping bombs on Irac from a hight fairly out of much danger. I am greatly distrustful when violent and dangerous nations make the definitions which describe concepts of fair play. Larry |
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25 Jan 01 - 07:29 PM (#382652) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: Peter K (Fionn) LArry, I think we're back in harmony. (Just in time - this thread's getting way too long.) Anyway, I'm with you 100 per cent on the criminal and cowardly US/UK assault on Kosovo/Belgrade. SAme goes for what's going on in southern Iraq daily and what Israel's been encouraged to get away with for years. There's one point I ought to make to DtG though, on the thread's main theme: suicide is not a victimless act - it can be quite brutal on close relatives etc. Statistically people who have a parent who committed suicide are more predisposed to do it themselves, the rationale apparently being close to that in abuse cases - ie, because they have been shat on, they don't feel so bad about shitting on others. |
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25 Jan 01 - 08:27 PM (#382705) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: McGrath of Harlow Any death in war causes suffering to the family, and ripples that go on for generations, and probably these more than most. But the Hunger Strikers were not suicides, any more than any soldier who is killed in battle. They desperately wanted to live, like any soldier in battle. But they were not willing to surrender.
And you could disagree with the reason they thought it worth dying for, and with the whole shape of their lives that brought them to that situation - as you could with any soldier in any battle. But their deaths were not suicide. And I think if we really are seeing the unfolding of real peace in Ireland, their deaths played a major part in getting us there. |
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26 Jan 01 - 12:35 AM (#382822) Subject: RE: Hungerstrike commemerations... From: InOBU Hi Fionn: I know a number of the family members of the ten 1981 huner strikers, and I know people who lost family to suiside. The families, as Keven says, sees their family members as casualities of war, as did Pope John Paul II, who, unlike the English bishops, did not see the hunger strikers as suisides. In fact, he sent a cross to Patsy O'Hara, who gave it to his sister Liz, who kept it until it was stolen in the United States (Ohhhhh why do these things have to happen here so often!!!!) The deaths were and are a terrible pain to the families, however, unlike suisides, they are also a sourse of pride. Patsy's mother had decided that as soon as Patsy was unconcious, she would let the doctors feed him intravenously. However, his last words where, after aplologising that they did not win the prisoners rights they sought, Mum, let the fight go on... and after that, she could not let the doctors feed him. Emotionally the families don't see their deaths in anyway shamefully as happens with suisides. Night all, Larry |