BS: Bushwacked - Four

02 Feb 01 - 02:16 PM (#388506)
Subject: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

Okay, I started a new thread and am now going back #3 to try do a blue clicky thing. We will see if it works.

Regards

John

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02 Feb 01 - 03:05 PM (#388546)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Greg F.

Works like a charm.

Try as one may, one just cannot reach a resoned accommodation with an irrational person.
Just a general observation.

Best, Greg

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02 Feb 01 - 03:26 PM (#388568)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

Greg,

Clearly. Its hard enough to reach an accommodation with a rational person who can't see that your logic is clearly superior *BG*

You can make sure anyone else who might overhear/read the irrationality doesn't have any question that it is irrational.

Regards,

John

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02 Feb 01 - 07:01 PM (#388775)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: katlaughing

And, Ashcroft gets in...making me as angry and dismayed as when I started the first of these threads!

Sorry I haven't been able to keep up. Reading a lot on-screen has been a bit difficult this week as my middle ear has a whacked out otolith...nothing a few turnings won't fix, though!**BG**

Thanks,

kat

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02 Feb 01 - 07:36 PM (#388814)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: McGrath of Harlow

A job for a Dremel maybe?

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02 Feb 01 - 07:45 PM (#388823)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

Kimmers,

My point was that you can't ignore them or the feed on their own irrationality. The logical fallacy is From Ignorance - The assumption that because something can't be shown to be false, it must be true. Just point out the irrationality as clearly as possible. IMO, anyway.

I agree that troll seems to reaching for something and not quite getting there. I know that family is very important to him (and to me too, come to that). Living in a college town, we have a fairly large number of single (by choice) parents. And the County used to have a very high teen pregnancy rate, all of which may help explain the more emotional than usual reaction.

Hope you'll share some statistics next week. In the meantime, some 'fun' facts from (in Florida). 85% of the 12-15 y/o juveniles picked up for criminal offenses (as opposed to curfew violations and the like) come from single parent homes.

Pilot programs show that if you can engage them and keep them occupied until around 8 PM, you can cut the delinquency rate by well over half. Most such programs are school based, btw. They work. They aren't funded at the State level after the federally funded pilot phase because the powers that be have determined that what's needed is harsher sentences. Compassionate conservatism in action. Oh, and part of the Juvenile Justice System has been privatized by under the same compassionate regard for our children. Now lets think about the logic of a private company being paid on a per service basis. The more people run the system, the more money I get and the more profit I make. Some incentive to try to reduce the numbers. And as their "per client cost" is generally lower (or at least the numbers they provide show same), they cab even claim to be saving the State money. After all, they don't create the juvenile delinquents.

Regards

John

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02 Feb 01 - 07:51 PM (#388828)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Lucius

MAV I'm sick of you flag wavers cursing government out of one side of your face while claiming all of America as your birthright. I'm a socialist, and damn proud of it. I like safe highways, I like a policeman to call if I have trouble and I like being able to petition my government to redress wrongs.

I work hard teaching kids in a Public School, because I believe in the right of all to a good education. I work ten hours a day. I drive an 84 Ford that was given to me rather than take it to a junkyard. I want more time for my children, and like many parents (I meet a few of them in my line of work) I'm stretched to the limit. Not all of us are dot.com millionaires, or would be if we had the choice. It's not independence, its a stinking selfishness like yours that is causing our society to crumble.

I agree that we could do better. We could start by realizing that depriving Blacks the right to vote in Florida is an injustice to all, and a failure of democracy. Then we could go on to look at the ogilarchy that appointed Bush, and ask if it serves the public interest. I pray for the day when we can get another liberal to stand up in the White House and remind us to "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country".

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02 Feb 01 - 09:34 PM (#388895)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

Wait a minute Folks! All this bad stuff is supposed to happen! It was profetized, so next time vote for Nader!!!wdyat12

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02 Feb 01 - 09:45 PM (#388899)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

Prophetized? I don't know. This stuff makes me as angry as anyone. It really gets me going! wdyat12

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02 Feb 01 - 09:48 PM (#388900)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

Profitized! That's the word! wdyat12

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02 Feb 01 - 10:05 PM (#388912)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Troll

In the recent hearings held by the Civil Rights Commission in Tallahassee, Fla. the NAACP et.al. did not produce a single legally registered Black Florida voter who was not allowed to vote.
Not one. NONE.
You probably didn't read about it since the mainstream media didn't give it much coverage. I guess it would only have been a story if their rights HAD been violated.
I found it on the Drudge Report.
I realize that there are other suits pending-Duval County in particular- but that's from a previous election.
If you think you want another JFK, clear the cobwebs out of your eyes and take a long look at what he did and at what he ACTUALLY accomplished. Remember, this was the man who absented himself from the Senate when McCarthy was censured so he wouldn't have to vote.Why? Because his father was even MORE anti-communist than McCarthy and John didn't want to offend Daddy. He might cut off the money. In fact, I believe that Joe McCarthy was godfather to one of the Kennedy children but I'm not positive.
Skeptic may know.

troll

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02 Feb 01 - 10:22 PM (#388922)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,sunshine 444

Sen McCarthy was the Godfather of Bobby Kennedy's oldest child. He visited the family often in the Florida home.

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02 Feb 01 - 10:25 PM (#388924)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

I expect all good Mudcatters will surround the Alaska National Widlife Refuge to protect our future domestic oil reserves from premature exploitation! My oil furnace is on the blink and like the politically correct and environmentally thoughtful person I am, I'm burning green wood to make my chimney act as a natural scrubber! However, it's cold in here! wdyat12

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02 Feb 01 - 10:29 PM (#388927)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV

Dear Lucy,

"MAV I'm sick of you flag wavers cursing government out of one side of your face while claiming all of America as your birthright"

It is our birthright, but we'll settle for just the red areas of the election 2000 map.

We're secretly planning to use global warming to melt the ice caps and flood the coastal blue areas (damn, I wasn't supposed to tell you that)

"I'm a socialist, and damn proud of it"

Ok.

"I like safe highways"

We flag wavers like dangerous highways, safe highways are for dopes. Now the Autobahn, pedal to the metal, that's a highway.

"I work hard teaching kids in a Public School, because I believe in the right of all to a good education"

As do I, where exactly do you find that right?

You could work just as hard in a private school teaching "education"

"I work ten hours a day. I drive an 84 Ford that was given to me rather than take it to a junkyard. I want more time for my children, and like many parents (I meet a few of them in my line of work) I'm stretched to the limit. Not all of us are dot.com millionaires, or would be if we had the choice"

If you made a million, you'd have half a million, that's a good reason to not make that choice (I guess).

"It's not independence"

Socialists don't have independence, you're just like the Borg (a little Trekkie lingo there) dependant on the government.

"its a stinking selfishness like yours that is causing our society to crumble"

What selfishness? Allowing parents to School choice is selfish?

Were you under the impression that I'm a fat cat? Ho Ho Ho!

What you selfish LSCs are doing is "depriving Blacks" in the inner city the opportunity to a decent and safe education.

They are begging for it and the GOP is going to deliver it to them, where the SELFISH self serving commucRATs have been taking their vote for granted and keeping them enslaved.

Once again the GOP will end slavery (this time from poverty and despair)

"I agree that we could do better. We could start by realizing that depriving Blacks the right to vote in Florida is an injustice to all, and a failure of democracy"

You got that right, any disenfranchisment happened in voting districts completely controlled by the failed democrats.

"Then we could go on to look at the ogilarchy that appointed Bush, and ask if it serves the public interest"

You mean the real votes that the cheating voting/election frauds despite their best efforts could not overcome?

"I pray for the day when we can get another liberal to stand up in the White House and remind us to "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country""

First of all Clinton is not a liberal, he has such good job approval ratings for signing most of the CONTRACT WITH AMERICA into law.

(whispering) You're embarassing yourself, that is not a liberal quote, liberals believe in dependence on the government. JFK by today's standards was a philandering Right Wing Extremist!

Now Teddy! There's a philandering murdering liberal (extremist).

GO Get him AG Ashcroft! (Was he tried for the murder of Mary Jo Kopekne?)

Have a happy day

mav

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02 Feb 01 - 10:38 PM (#388932)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

A caution about what follows. As a dyed in the wool liberal (and getting more so every day) I am not a Kennedy fan. Any venom is entirely intentional.

troll,

Delighted you deferred to me. I know what an effort it was. Joe was the godfather to Robert Kennedy's first born.

During the censure, JFK was in the hospital recovering from back surgery. He was offered the chance to have his statement of censure against Joe put into the record. He refused. In part to please Poppa Joe, in part because both John and Bobby Kennedy were strong McCarthy supporters. JFK as early as 1949 and Bobby as a minority counsel to Joe's committee investigating communism. Poppa Joe finally gave up on Joe M in 1956 (2 years after censure) and JFK then got around to adding his voice to the censure record.

At the '56 convention, Eleanor Roosevelt openly berated him for not taking a stand. And did it again in 1958 in an interview, unimpressed with his attempt to don the liberal mantle. Democratic Progressives (the LSCers of the day) in 1960 actively opposed his candidacy.

JFK was also a fan of Nixon.

An old friend and long-time liberal had this take on the famous "ask not what you can do...." sound-bite. He claimed that the logical extension of that was what we can do, is what the government tells us to do. And then, perhaps, what they tell us to think. If you think about it to long, there are some fairly ominous overtones to the statement.

Regards,

John

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02 Feb 01 - 10:46 PM (#388935)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV

Senator forgoes Bathing, Body odor overcomes seatmates.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/national/default-20012223357.htm

mav out

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02 Feb 01 - 10:48 PM (#388938)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

Mav, What are you teaching our kids in school? wdyat12

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02 Feb 01 - 10:59 PM (#388942)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV

Dear wydat,

Marksmanship, Constitutional Appreciation, Wintertime deep woods survival, ballet and Bravo Sierra detection

Seriously, they need 3R fundamentals in K-6.

mav out

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02 Feb 01 - 11:00 PM (#388944)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

Those seem ok with me. Do you also teach them how to think for themselves? wdyat12

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02 Feb 01 - 11:05 PM (#388948)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Matt_R

C'mon people, we're making it now! Yeah yeah yeah!

--Richard Ashcroft

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02 Feb 01 - 11:06 PM (#388951)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

Mav, Will you be taking a position in one of those Chritian Militia schools under the new regiem?

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02 Feb 01 - 11:08 PM (#388953)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Greg F.

C'mon guys & gals: Please Don't Feed The Animals!

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02 Feb 01 - 11:10 PM (#388954)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

Sorry! wdyat12

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02 Feb 01 - 11:11 PM (#388955)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV

"Do you also teach them how to think for themselves"

That would come under BS detection.

"Will you be taking a position in one of those Chritian Militia schools under the new regiem?"

All indicators point to no.

mav out

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02 Feb 01 - 11:15 PM (#388957)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

So, let's embellish this conversation. How about "Creation" vrs. "Evolution" for a topic??? wdyat12

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02 Feb 01 - 11:30 PM (#388962)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: kimmers

Creation vs. evolution? Oh, boy... Assuming that was serious suggestion, here goes.

I take a compromise position that will probably satisfy no one. I believe with my heart that God created me and knows me, but I don't believe that the world was created in a literal six days. I've always felt that evolution was and is the tool of a clever God, who didn't want it to be too easy for us to believe in Him. One cannot prove the existence of God logically, after all... where is the Mystery, then?

Was my literal biologic ancestor an ape-like creature? Current research certainly is consistent with that. Am I still created in the image of God? You betcha.

This has interesting implications for education, to say the least. I like to see kids given the chance to study the evidence, then make up their own minds. Scientific questioning should begin in youth.

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02 Feb 01 - 11:35 PM (#388966)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

I agree with you kimmers on all points accept one. Ienstine proved the existence of God. This is not a joke! wdyat12

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02 Feb 01 - 11:38 PM (#388969)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

He did it of course with mathematics and reason... far from my modus operandi. wdyat12

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02 Feb 01 - 11:45 PM (#388975)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

troll,

"In the recent hearings held by the Civil Rights Commission in Tallahassee, Fla. the NAACP et.al. did not produce a single legally registered Black Florida voter who was not allowed to vote"

Not surprising as that's not what they were looking for. As the claim is non-falsifiable, why would anyone bother. They did talk to a number of voters (per CNN anyway) who were purged from the rolls as felons when they weren't.

MAV,

"Socialists don't have independence, you're just like the Borg (a little Trekkie lingo there) dependant on the government"

As are capitalists. And communists and ........all the other ists an isms. Government is a function. Socialists want one set of functions, capitalist another. You can claim that education isn't listed as a function of the government. True. The constitution mentions nothing about education. It doesn't mention a lot of things. Deliberately. The intent wasn't to make a nice, exhaustive list of all the duties and responsibilities of the Government. It was to say, here are specific duties we want you d\to carry out. If we (as in "We the People"), want you to do more, here are the rules under which you have to operate. Congress makes the laws and the Supreme Court makes sure they follow the general principals. If we don't like the laws, elect different lawmakers.

"What selfishness? Allowing parents to School choice is selfish? " They have the choice now. Under your logic of choice, as education shouldn't be a function of the government, why should a parent have to send their child to school at all?

"What you selfish LSCs are doing is "depriving Blacks" in the inner city the opportunity to a decent and safe education"

This does not compute. A ringing indictment, to be sure. Proof would be nice.

"You got that right, any disenfranchisment happened in voting districts completely controlled by the failed democrats. "

Duval County comes to mind. Traditional votes republican. Has a republican Mayor. The majority of the Palm Beach County Commission is also Republican.

"First of all Clinton is not a liberal, he has such good job approval ratings for signing most of the CONTRACT WITH AMERICA into law"

Plus he associated with known Republicans and noted conservatives. Just what is he then?

"whispering) You're embarassing yourself, that is not a liberal quote, liberals believe in dependence on the government. JFK by today's standards was a philandering Right Wing Extremist! "

And by the standards of the '60's he was a slightly right of center moderate. Not exactly a big secret. Yes, people view him as a progressive liberal. People view Newt Gingrich as the very model of modern southern conservative. Or did, anyway, until his all to human foibles clashed with the public image he'd developed.. Whether JFK was or wasn't a liberal has nothing to do with Lucius wanting one in the White House. As said earlier, I'm not a fan of JFK or his famous sound-bite but I want a liberal in the White House too. (Just my kind of Liberal)

"GO Get him AG Ashcroft! (Was he tried for the murder of Mary Jo Kopekne?) "

No. Was Nixon tried for Watergate or Cambodia? Or Bush and Company for Iran/Contra? Seems to me our legal system decided the evidence wasn't sufficient for a trail. Except for the Iran/Contra Group who got pardoned by Bush Sr. Kimmers,

"I like to see kids given the chance to study the evidence, then make up their own minds. Scientific questioning should begin in youth. "

Come on. Think for themselves. Then they'll start demanding things like a living wage, 40 hour work weeks and who knows what else. I mean think what you propsal might mean. Voting on the issues. And actually bothering to vote. Developing a strong sense of self-worth and self-reliance so the bs from all sides of the political spectrum is seen for what it is.

You really need to be careful. With Ashcroft in, can developing a program to locate politically non-conservative ideas on the internet and deal harshly with the malefactors be far behind. Its people like you who make me think there really is hope.

Regards,

John

Regards,

John

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02 Feb 01 - 11:48 PM (#388978)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

Matt, I love your enthusiasm for a good fight! wdyat12

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02 Feb 01 - 11:49 PM (#388979)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

Creation versus Evolution?

Can't say I believe in either one. :-)

Regards

John

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02 Feb 01 - 11:54 PM (#388982)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: kimmers

Ah, the three 'R's!

Okay, I'll be the first to admit that education has some silly fads. So does medicine. So does management... my God, does the business admin culture come up with some weird stuff!

The very best teachers teach children according to the learning style of the child. If you're not familiar with the theories of personality put forth first by Jung and later by Meyers and Briggs, and most recently David Keirsey... there is a lot of evidence that children learn in different ways. Teachers, and school administrators, teach in different styles. You can have good matches and bad matches.

Most teachers and school administrators are SJ Guardian types. They are traditionalists, who believe in phonics and workbooks and memorization. A large minority are NF Idealist types. These are the folks who like to teach by discussion and oral presentations and unusual methods. School district policies and curriculum tends to reflect the beliefs of whichever group is in power, so to speak.

Kids need a balance. Yes, they need to learn to read. But the result may be more important than the method. A precocious child who already knows how to read isn't going to find 'phonics' very interesting; she probably is a visual reader by the second or third grade. Kids need to experience the JOY of reading as well as the drudgery.

Frankly, I consider myself lucky to have started the first grade in 1972, in a school that was flexible. In addition to the 'basics' (which I learned very well) I learned music (learned to play the ukulele in the third grade!), calligraphy, story writing, how to use a microscope, how to keep an ant farm... oh, so many magical things. We learned all about Transactional Analysis, the 70's 'warm fuzzies and cold pricklies' analogy to teach kids how to be nice to each other. And yes, there was plenty of time for math and spelling and reading.

I digress. The best teachers have many tools in their teaching toolbelt. If one method does not work, they pull out another. Good teaching is done on the fly, by the seat of the pants, almost by instinct. Anybody can get a class to repeat phonics ad nauseum; a real teacher knows when to chuck the lesson out the window -- once in a while -- to give students some magical experience. I ask you all: think back to your own school days, and remember which teachers you loved.

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03 Feb 01 - 12:00 AM (#388984)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

Skeptic, You're a bit convoluted from where you come from, but I will think about what you have said. The Internet thing has got me worried! wdyat12

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03 Feb 01 - 12:12 AM (#388992)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

Kimmers,

When I worked in health care the term was "Management theory de jour". Sometimes it was almost literally true.

Knowing how to reach the child is part of the art of teaching. I had a few duds but many of my teachers were artists of the first order. Today it seems that those "in power" are looking for technicians, not artists.

Do you have standardized testing in your schools. Do you think the standardize test show much of anything?

wdyat12,

As troll will probably pipe in and tell you, I can get a lot more convoluted than that. As I don't see/like simple answers to complex issues, its an occupational hazard. That and a lot of stuff refers or infers back to earlier posts on the first three parts of bush-wacked. And I may have tied my thinking in a knot as I post to several forums and sometimes I forget what I've said where.

Question are cheerfully answered and positions explained.

And if I'm ever wrong, I'll be happy to admit it :-).

Regards,

John

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03 Feb 01 - 12:12 AM (#388994)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

Right on kimmers!!! there is no drudgery in reading except without your glasses! You made some real good points. I always teach "on the fly...by the seat of my pants." wdyat12

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03 Feb 01 - 12:19 AM (#389000)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

John, I can tell you really care about kids. Sometimes it's so hard to get to them. wdyat12

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03 Feb 01 - 12:24 AM (#389004)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

Right on Sceptic!!! Time to put on my glasses I think! wdyat12

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03 Feb 01 - 01:03 AM (#389018)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

Why do I seem to close out each thread. Am I that bad a listener? wdyaT12

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03 Feb 01 - 01:13 AM (#389023)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

wydat12,

Trolls Sovereign Test for Paranoia - You know you're paranoid when you can't think of single thing that's your fault.

Skeptics Surefire Flame Predictor - You know you're going to get flamed when you can't think of a single one of your opinions that's wrong and want to mak esure the world knows.

As I book, If you haven't read it, I'd suggest "Voodoo Science".

Regards,

John

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03 Feb 01 - 01:23 AM (#389027)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

John, "Voodoo Science" sounds like a book I might enjoy! do you have anymore recommendations? Woody

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03 Feb 01 - 01:27 AM (#389029)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

Woody at 12 (wdyat12). Oh my Gosh! I let the cat out of the bag!!! wdyat12

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03 Feb 01 - 01:44 AM (#389031)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

Dear Guest, So, You're for States' rights! Are you also for the mentally ill having the right to vote??? Yours, wdyat12

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03 Feb 01 - 01:50 AM (#389033)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

Dear Guest, This is no joke! wdyat12

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03 Feb 01 - 01:55 AM (#389034)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

Casey,

Absolutely. the post was getting too long to go into the Bill of Rights. And we forget it all to easily for all sorts of valid, logic reasons....until its to late. Giving away freedoms is a hell of a lot easier than taking them back.

IX gets forgotten by everyone. (Including the SC). Why argue that the penumbra of the Bill of Rights guarantees a right to privacy? I'd go at it from the other way: we have the right because nothing in the Constitution says we don't or gives the Government much say over it. Then the Staes (usually more responsive to the people, could decide what (if any) limits or controls were needed.

Regards

John

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03 Feb 01 - 02:47 AM (#389048)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: wdyat12

Skeptic, I recently got off a pickett line at Bath Iron Works, (a General Dynamics Subsidiary) We had more rights not working for this conglomerate than with it. The strike lasted two months and the workers felt a genuine pride in stopping the production of "state of the art" death ships (Aegis Destroyers). I always carry a copy of the Constitution in my lunchbox to flaunt at the corporate lackies that couldn't manage a lunch break. We all are in serious trouble here. When is a Contract not a Contract? I'll tell you here that America is in the same boat. "We the People" can not tolerate any more disreguard for the Prime Document of our Nation. wdyat12

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03 Feb 01 - 08:16 AM (#389106)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,RCBZ

Lucius,

" I'm a socialist, and damn proud of it."

Then why are you living in a Capitalist country?. Sounds like Cuba might more in line with your ideology.

"I like being able to petition my government to redress wrongs."

Wrongs by whom?... The Govt.?, or some group you don't agree with?. You need to clarify that statement so it can be anwered.

"I want more time for my children,"

Change occupations to one that would allow that to happen.

"We could start by realizing that depriving Blacks the right to vote in Florida is an injustice to all,"

The Florida courts have found otherwise, they were not deprived the right to vote. Don't forget that most of the complaints came from Democratic counties. Sounds like the Democrats were depriving them their right to vote.

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03 Feb 01 - 10:03 AM (#389130)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Greg F.

Then why are you living in a Capitalist country?. Sounds like Cuba might more in line with your ideology.

Ah, Nostalgia! Hadn't heard anyone-outside of a bad joke- spew "America: Love It or Leave It!!" in more than 30 years! Who sez right-wingers have no sense/knowledge of history?   ;-)

Best, Greg

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03 Feb 01 - 10:50 AM (#389150)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

"The Florida courts have found otherwise, they were not deprived the right to vote"

The Florida Supreme Court said their were problem, the US Supreme Court said their weren't. The Governor's Special Commission on Election Reform has testimony to the contrary.

There are several issues. Thanks to a less than competent firm, some voters where purged from voter registration lists as convicted felons (which they weren't). The US Civil Right Commission is looking in to that (among other things). An interesting side-light: when the State hired the firm to purge the data bases (the one that screwed up so badly) the State's Supervisors of Election organization drafted a memo (well before the election) outlining the problems with the firms work and sent it to the Secretary of State, Ms. Harris. Nothing was done. This is the same Ms. Harris who announced on Nov 9th (or there about) that there was no evidence of anything being wrong with the election system. Now, people are attributing all sorts of motives (from politics to racism) to the fiasco.

Florida is one of 14 states that doesn't restore voting rights to convicted felons once they have completed their sentence. Blacks are heavily represented in this population. (because they commit and are convicted of crimes at a higher rate). To some people, this is evidence of racism. I don't think that was the intent of the law. I do think it's a stupid and dangerous law.

And finally there are the reports of deliberate interference with people getting to the polls, records (the affidavits in Duval County) being destroyed in violation not only of the election code but of the Florida Public Records Act, the faulty voting machines problems and inconsistent standards for dealing with rejected ballots (consistent standards being a major issue with the Supreme Court).

People were 'deprived' of their right to vote in the sense that people who should have been allowed to vote, weren't. The issue at law (in the lower Courts in Florida) was whether it was sufficient to invalidate results. The issue in equity is: How many voters being deprived of their right to vote does it take before its wrong.

"Don't forget that most of the complaints came from Democratic counties. Sounds like the Democrats were depriving them their right to vote"

The correct modifier is "some", not "most" if you're talking about the affiliation of elected officials. Does who's to blame make it any more or less right

I'll offer this on your "love it or leave it" philosophy.

The United States is a Democracy by the stated will of the people (through the Constitution). Capitalism is just an economic system we happen to have. We could as easily have a socialistic economy without violating the Constitution. The right of Free Expression is one of the hallmarks of our system. Within very, very broad limits, people are free to advocate whatever views they want. Applying you r logic to your statement, I would suggest that if you find the exercise of constitutionally guaranteed rights in this county to be so personably disturbing, you might want to find another country mandates more conformity of thought. That, however, is my opinion and your choice, not something I or the government can or should enforce.

Regards,

John

---

03 Feb 01 - 11:07 AM (#389154)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

wdyat12,

As a professed (confessed/) cynic, I always remember that one of the motives of the founding fathers was to preserve their rights, prerogatives, perks and properties. Which they tried to incorporate in the Constitution Originally, there were fairly stringent limits on who could vote. No property, no right to vote. Basing the exercise of rights on a sliding scale indexed against how much you are worth has a lot of historical basis. Its wrong (imnsho). It just wont go away.

Corporations seem to have forgotten that a workforce who feels like they are valued (not just cogs to be paid) are far more productive.

Regards

John

---

03 Feb 01 - 01:47 PM (#389230)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Lucius

I find it amusing that Right wing extremists often speak of their "American" rights, but rarely use the word "American" responsibility. I suppose that in their survivalist POV responsibility is for the next guy, not them.

Considering how their freedom was won, they should be on their knees daily in gratitude that the founders of our freedom were responsible enough to create a system whereby the "People of the United States... [would]... promote the general Welfare", even if a statement like this smacks of socialism. I suppose they have in in for Christ for promoting socialism as well.

As far as the "Move to Cuba" comment, I have no need to deride such a ridiculous statement.

---

03 Feb 01 - 06:34 PM (#389337)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: kimmers

Hmm, things are slowing down here... so I thought I'd pass along something about education.

My husband visited a site today that supplies books for home-schoolers. I found it extremely spooky. Public education may get goofy at times, but at least it reflects a diversity of opinions. These guys are putting out books that seem one step short of brainwashing.

And how the heck are they putting a "Christian" (read: right-wing political ideology) spin on MATH??? or CHEMISTRY??

Here's the site:

Clickety-bloo

---

03 Feb 01 - 06:42 PM (#389338)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: kimmers

I should add: to read their catalogue, click on "products" and you can download it from there. You will need Adobe Acrobat Reader.

I especially like the little biographies of George Washington that they are selling. You think that they mention the old boy's whiskey still?

---

03 Feb 01 - 07:24 PM (#389349)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,SeanM, moving from computer

How 'bout his hemp crops?

There's legitimate debate over why he grew them. Some of his techniques apparently are really only feasible in the light of growing for smoking...

M

---

03 Feb 01 - 08:05 PM (#389370)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

kimmers,

Tried to look at the catalogue. Either it doesn't like Acrobat 4.0 or I'm on an 'enemies' list somewhere. I've seen similar stuff at friend's houses who home school. I've also seem some really good stuff that puts some of the text-books used today to shame.

Mainstream text-book publishers try to appease all the special interest groups. There was a recent news story about the Prentice Hall science series that, aside from the usual proofing areas, misstated basic scientific laws.

A couple of Middle School history texts I've seen paint a picture of the explorers and colonist's that are ready fro a prime-time mini-series. They're painted as brave, adventurous with a few minor flaws thrown in to flesh them out. I had an opportunity to look at six or seven different history texts (supposedly the cream of the crop) being considered locally and they were about as bland, one sided and simplistic as they could be without omitting the text entirely and just having pictures.

The Boards of Education don't seem to mind as their criteria for the success of teachings is passing standardized tests. Text books are written to address the core concepts required by the State (Florida's used to be available on-line) The standardized tests are geared to the core concepts. Reading the standards lulls you into a false sense of security. A little time with them and you realize that there's no depth. Just pre-packaged info-bites that will show up later on competency tests.

Sean,

Was smoking of hemp stigmatized back in the good old days? Drinking alcohol wasn't,I seem to recall, in part because getting potable water was a problem.

Regards

John

---

03 Feb 01 - 08:25 PM (#389377)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: kimmers

John, sorry you couldn't look at the site. I read the info on some of the textbooks, and was baffled. I expect there to be big differences in liberal vs. conservative viewpoint on subjects such as history or economics, but not when it comes to the hard sciences. That's what puzzled me. I'm tempted to order a book or two on subjects I know a lot about, just because I'm curious.

As far as the whiskey still -- yup, views about alcohol were very different then. Plain water was viewed with suspicion by the colonials; it was thought that cold water caused cramps and even death. Most people drank rum or whiskey in the very early days, then beer or cider when the beer became better. It was a long time before any decent wine was made in this country.

No, I'm not scandalized by the idea of ol' George making whiskey. But I'm betting that the authors of that little biography would never mention the fact, nor anything else in the same vein. To explain that standards were once different, one has to admit that standards are not carved in stone and that a certain practice may be all right in one situation but not in another.

---

03 Feb 01 - 08:40 PM (#389387)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

kimmers,

Science I can see. It's easy to distort things (not just evolution) by both sides of the spectrum. The religious right by omitting and downplaying anything counter to the bible and the ultra-left with claims that science and scientific methodology are invalid as ways of learning about/explaining the physical world.

Even math. You could do it through the word problems....If it takes 5 RRer's, 2 years to infiltrate and sanitize the curriculum in a public school, how many would it take to accomplish the same in 14 months?)

Chemistry and Physics? I'd like to know that myself. The books I saw were pretty straight forward. Especially the Chemistry. The Physics text avoided most of quantum mechanics, but even public school texts don't get into it or non-linear math either.

Is it really any wonder we're doomed to repeat the mistakes of a history we're not teaching?

Regards,

John

---

03 Feb 01 - 09:13 PM (#389407)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV

Dear Skeptic,

"The United States is a Democracy by the stated will of the people (through the Constitution)"

Pardon my begging, it never has been, it never will be.

Democracy would require every citizen to vote on every little bit of minutia legislation every day (they just barely come out to vote for candidates)

Can you find the word democracy in the Constitution?

"Capitalism is just an economic system we happen to have"

"Capitalism" is a word coined by Marx and used since then as a derogatory term to deride economic freedom.

American free enterprise is the entity born of economic freedom and is a natural phenomenon of human nature.

"We could as easily have a socialistic economy without violating the Constitution"

Since socialism requires government participation (and partial ownership) in business, I don't think you are correct. Any government ownership of Wall Street Securities starts down that road.

"Originally, there were fairly stringent limits on who could vote. No property, no right to vote"

How about, no paycheck stub, no address, on welfare, got felonies...no right to vote.

I don't think the takers should be picking the pockets of the makers.

mav out

---

03 Feb 01 - 09:15 PM (#389408)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV

Lucius,

"I find it amusing that Right wing extremists often speak of their "American" rights, but rarely use the word "American" responsibility"

Well then you haven't been listening very well.

It's a citizen's duty to cast their INFORMED vote.

It's the parent's responsibility to educate their children.

It's a woman's responsibility not to risk getting pregnant until she's capable of being "responsible" (married)

It's a man's responsiblilty to provide for any children he's sired.

It's a citizen's responsibility to be properly trained in the safe operation and ownership of their firearms.

It's the parent's responsibility to raise respectful, thoughtful and obedient children so they may become the good citizens and leaders of tommorrow.

There are some extra-responsibilities too, like community or faith based organizations which can take care of and place unwanted children in loving homes, instead of just killing them.

"Considering how their freedom was won, they should be on their knees daily in gratitude that the founders of our freedom were responsible enough to create a system whereby the "People of the United States... [would]... promote the general Welfare", even if a statement like this smacks of socialism"

Uh....many of those "right wing extremists" fought for and many died on behalf of your freedom. They take an oath to DEFEND the Constitution.

Since you are a teacher, please, understanding that words mean things, note it says "promote" not PROVIDE!

Also note "welfare" means "how you're getting along" not a free handout from the government. If you are working, totally self-reliant and "comfortable", it could be said that you welfare is good.

"I suppose they have in in for Christ for promoting socialism as well"

That would be CHARITY by the church, where it belongs.

"As far as the "Move to Cuba" comment, I have no need to deride such a ridiculous statement"

What's so ridiculous about that? Castro thinks he's a socialist, so did Stalin.

mav out

---

03 Feb 01 - 09:17 PM (#389409)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV

Greg F

"Ah, Nostalgia! Hadn't heard anyone-outside of a bad joke- spew "America: Love It or Leave It!!" in more than 30 years! Who sez right-wingers have no sense/knowledge of history"

Some right wingers had it said to them in their youthful days of ideology. You know the saying..."If at age 20 etc"

mav out

---

03 Feb 01 - 09:23 PM (#389410)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Troll

Most of the teachers don't KNOW the history they are teaching, let alone the history they are not teaching. They are not required to know anything about history. "Just teach what's in the book."

troll

---

03 Feb 01 - 09:23 PM (#389411)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV

Kimmers,

First understand I'm not particularly Religious Right, but I'm glad they're on our side.

"My husband visited a site today that supplies books for home-schoolers. I found it extremely spooky"

It would be if you are an anti-christian bigot.

Not all home schoolers are doing it just because they are Christian. We have some leftie Yuppies who are into it "big time"

"Public education may get goofy at times, but at least it reflects a diversity of opinions"

Since they recognize it is their right to raise their own children as they see fit (not the state's) they don't want that PC claptrap being foisted on their kids"

"These guys are putting out books that seem one step short of brainwashing"

All education is "brainwashing", they want the kids brainwashed their way, not yours.

"And how the heck are they putting a "Christian" (read: right-wing political ideology) spin on MATH??? or CHEMISTRY??"

Well,

"No-wrong-answer-as-long-as-you-feel-good-about-yourself" MATH would not be tolerated.

"Man made global warming" CHEMISTRY probably doesn't cut it either.

As far as "Christian" (read: right-wing political ideology)" goes;

There is also a RELIGIOUS LEFT, they are, among others, the black Babtists who always vote democrat.

We, RWEs, now plan as our next trick to bring them into the fold. (see: "W" meets with Black Caucus and Black pastors)

They have much more in common with the Golden Rule Christian Conservatives than they do with the perverts, pornographers, felons, thieves, liars, drug dealers and murder/borts that are associated with BILL CLINTON and the rest of the DNC!!!

I welcome those black "country preachers" with their halleluja congregations and pounding gospel music. I'd like to have them on our side too.

Besides, they have 12% of the vote.

Now that's dangerous.

mav out

---

03 Feb 01 - 10:01 PM (#389421)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: kimmers

Boy, I sure wish my public-school math classes had been no-wrong-anwer-as-long-as-I-felt-good-about-myself!! Gee, I wouldn't have had to work nearly as hard at grinding out those math assignments and studying for all of those exams. It was hard and I was challenged.

And before you comment that things have all changed... I was in high school from 1980-84. The public school/private religious school debate was going very strong then; many of the parents at my church were sending their kids to private schools. They were very open about the reason: they wanted to control the content of what their kids were learning. No evolution and no sex ed.

Interesting enough, not one of the kids in our church youth group (Baptist) who attended the Christian high school (about half of them) went on to college in the years that I was going there. Many of the rest of us went to college... but my brother and I, from a 'non-Christian' home, were the only ones who graduated. My Christian-high-school girlfriends were pretty much all married by age twenty. Oh, and several of the girls from the most conservative backgrounds were pregnant when they married. Ignorance of the facts of sex education didn't protect them, now, did it?

Yes, I am a Christian, not an 'anti-Christian bigot'. I am not afraid or embarrassed of my faith. But God gave me a brain and I am going to use it!

---

03 Feb 01 - 10:04 PM (#389423)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: kimmers

Troll, while I would agree that teacher education needs to be better -- much better -- the training and ability varies widely. To say that 'teachers aren't required to learn history' is about as accurate as saying that 'doctors don't learn anything about nutrition'. That's one I hear all the time. Gee, what was I doing in that interminable nutrition course?

---

03 Feb 01 - 10:50 PM (#389446)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV

Kimmers,

Well I guess you told me.

Your HS experience is about 180 degrees different from mine, but then again I graduated HS in 1969.

regards,

mav

---

04 Feb 01 - 12:47 AM (#389504)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,ChicagoJohn

"I want more time for my children, and like many parents (I meet a few of them in my line of work) I'm stretched to the limit."

If you are stretched for time, then why are you socialist?

"Not all of us are dot.com millionaires, or would be if we had the choice. It's not independence, its a stinking selfishness like yours that is causing our society to crumble."

Beg pardon, but socialism is much more the politics of selfishness then any other political party. Socialism says- "What is yours is also mine" If that isn't selfish, I dunno what is.

"We could start by realizing that depriving Blacks the right to vote in Florida is an injustice to all, and a failure of democracy."

After the investigation of Florida by Democrats, they found 1 (ONE) person who had said that they had been denied the right to vote. That is not depriving blacks the right to vote. Assuming that the 1 (ONE) person was telling the truth, it does not form a pattern of discimination.

"I pray for the day when we can get another liberal to stand up in the White House and remind us to "Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country"."

Yeah? As in the VERY unselfish "Can I have $650,000 a year for an apartment?" Clinton?

Do tell.

John

---

04 Feb 01 - 01:04 AM (#389513)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,ChicagoJohn

"Government is a function. Socialists want one set of functions, capitalist another."

Close, but as Clinton said, no cigar. Socialists want more functions. Capitalists a lot less.

"The constitution mentions nothing about education. It doesn't mention a lot of things. Deliberately. The intent wasn't to make a nice, exhaustive list of all the duties and responsibilities of the Government. It was to say, here are specific duties we want you d\to carry out."

The Constitution is very specific on what government shouldn't do. But you can't seriously argue that the founding fathers would be *for* giving away air-conditioners. If they knew that we would be considering such things, they certainly would have stopped it from happening.

"Plus [Clinton] associated with known Republicans and noted conservatives. Just what is he then?"

A used car salesman.

"Come on. Think for themselves. Then they'll start demanding things like a living wage, 40 hour work weeks and who knows what else."

I have a bunch of problems with the above statement. The most successful "kids" today are from the internet era. They work longer then 40 hours a week of their own accord. They do so because they are smart, and make good money. The people in this world who make the most money do NOT stick to a 40 hour week.

"With Ashcroft in, can developing a program to locate politically non-conservative ideas on the internet and deal harshly with the malefactors be far behind."

Are you kidding me???

John

---

04 Feb 01 - 01:10 AM (#389515)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,ChicagoJohn

"Florida is one of 14 states that doesn't restore voting rights to convicted felons once they have completed their sentence. Blacks are heavily represented in this population. (because they commit and are convicted of crimes at a higher rate). To some people, this is evidence of racism. I don't think that was the intent of the law. I do think it's a stupid and dangerous law."

Why do you think it's stupid to stop felons from voting?

John

---

04 Feb 01 - 01:13 AM (#389516)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,ChicagoJohn

"Corporations seem to have forgotten that a workforce who feels like they are valued (not just cogs to be paid) are far more productive."

On the contrary, most corporations pay their most valued people very well. I have a friend who works on firewalls. He gets paid very, very, well.

John

---

04 Feb 01 - 01:17 AM (#389517)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Sorcha

And the Clintons have 2 houses to boot; one in NY, one in DC. Plus Secret Service protection. Plus the Mrs. in the Senate, with her salary and perks. Not to mention Bill's "retirement" from the Presidency.

And, she/they are not even really legal residents of NY.....she has been a resident of DC for 8 yrs, and Arkansas before that. (In Wyoming, this would not constitute Residency for tax, hunting, voting, etc. priviliges)

Both of the Clintons lost a lot of my respect over the Senate/Real Estate deal and the Pelitier Pardon. Not to mention the WhiteWater thing. At the time, I did not put a lot of stock in that, but now????????

It will be interesting to see just what Ms. H. Clinton does in the next few years. I did, at one point, have hopes for her Health Plan........

---

04 Feb 01 - 09:53 AM (#389618)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

Mav,

You're quite correct. We have a representative Republic. I was going more for the spirit than the letter. "Capitalism is just an economic system we happen to have" I was using the world to describe an economic system without implication of right or wrong. "American free enterprise is the entity born of economic freedom and is a natural phenomenon of human nature" Huh?. I understand the sentiment, just not the logic. "Natural phenomenon? " How so. Nature (ecological systems in general) tend to cooperation and diversity. Mutualism and symbiotic relationships are far more common than the contrary. In an ecological system, when something interferes with one element of the overall population, the system will return to its prior stability (and maintain the same ratios of species). The analogy can only be carried so far in dealing with people, but it gives an indication that cooperation may be the natural order of things.. Given tax incentives, tax breaks, tariffs and all the other government programs to benefit "free enterprise", we don't seem to have that here, either. When we were closer (the 1800's and early 1900's)), the consequences ran contrary to the principals of the constitution. "Since socialism requires government participation (and partial ownership) in business, I don't think you are correct. Any government ownership of Wall Street Securities starts down that road". Nothing in the Constitution prohibits the Government from owning property. If our elected representatives pass a law to that effect (there are currently some laws to the contrary), then we could. "How about, no paycheck stub, no address, on welfare, got felonies...no right to vote." Because all the people you list are part of "We the People"...who decided, through constitutional amendment, that property rights(among other things) weren't going to be a criteria for who votes. You don't have to like all the People, how they live or how they think, but if you accept the Constitution as currently enacted, you play by the rules. Your prescription also moves further away from democratic ideal. If you value the idea of inalienable human rights (in part as listed in the Bill of Rights) then why propose an oligarchy? History shows they aren't very supportive of ideas like individual rights and sentiments like "We the People." "I don't think the takers should be picking the pockets of the makers" Should makers be picking the pockets of makers? Under your theory, should I have had to subsidize the Chrysler government loan? Bail out the savings and loan. Suffered higher car prices because of import tarriffs. Should their be export tarrifs?

You seem to look at valid problems in our society and see solutions. And not consider possible consequences of those solutions.

Regards,

John

---

04 Feb 01 - 10:06 AM (#389623)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Greg F.

Hmmm...mav seems to be undergoing a form of mitotic division.......or perhaps its budding? Possibly MPD.

---

04 Feb 01 - 10:54 AM (#389646)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

Mav,

"It's a citizen's duty to cast their INFORMED vote" I think that citizens should be informed about the issues before they vote. I think that citizens should vote. It is their right, not their duty. Do you think there should be penalties if people don't vote? That's one possible implication of the term "duty".

"It's the parent's responsibility to educate their children" Does society have a responsibility to ask for a certain quality of that education?

"It's a woman's responsibility not to risk getting pregnant until she's capable of being "responsible" (married) " And the man has no responsibility? I'm sure others will have lots to say on that. The implication of your statement, however, shows a profound disrespect for both men and women.

"It's a man's responsibility to provide for any children he's sired." Ah, having bourne the child, the women's job is done?. By "provide", do you mean provide materially only? And does the community have any responsibilities here. Forget the government. Does the Church? Boy/Girl Scouts. Little League? What if the woman works and the man stays home? What if all the man does is provide materially?.

It's a citizen's responsibility to be properly trained in the safe operation and ownership of their firearms. Damn. We agree on something. "It's the parent's responsibility to raise respectful, thoughtful and obedient children so they may become the good citizens and leaders of tomorrow.". Respect is earned. Politeness is owed. (IMO). Thoughtful is nice. Obedient? To what or to whom? Obedient to the internal set of values, ethics, morals and beliefs I've helped my son develop? Sure. Willing to accept the consequences of those beliefs, that to. Blind obedience, even to positive and good things, is very dangerous. Solutions and consequences, again. They go hand in hand. "There are some extra-responsibilities too, like community or faith based organizations which can take care of and place unwanted children in loving homes, instead of just killing them" The criteria imposed for adoption in this country have little to do with the loving nature of the home. "Uh....many of those "right wing extremists" fought for and many died on behalf of your freedom. They take an oath to DEFEND the Constitution." Freedom is won, or lost, by the day to day actions of its citizens. The sacrifice of those who fought an died must never be forgotten. Liberals, moderates and a lot of others fought an died too. They fought to defend the rights, not define correct behavior, whether on the right or left. "That would be CHARITY by the church, where it belongs" Christ said charity is the responsibility of the individual and family, not the Church. And I seem to remember that "charity" in the original, implies a lot more than material help.

In replying to kimmers, you said. "It would be if you are an anti-christian bigot" As I'm not anti-Christian and work like hell not to be a bigot, let me offer this. I finally got into the site kimmers recommended. From the descriptions it would appear that the same poor scholarship (from whatever motivation) that I've found in some public school texts exists here in spades. Whether the motive is to promote a particular flavor of Christianity, liberal political correctness or some other agenda, lousy scholarship is criminal. At least with the public school system I have an opportunity to at least put in my two cents worth. When ideology is a more important consideration than scholarship, I have real problems. As a member of society, I'll have to deal with the graduates of such a system who elevate political/religious/conservative/liberal "correctness" over mere facts. I object. I should not have to subsidize that kind of sloppy education. The goal of education should be on how to think, not what to think.

The RWE have a very bad habit of believing in the golden rule as long as the people they are doing unto believe the way they do. LWE have a similar problem with their political correctness agenda. Fortunately, the majority seem to be more moderate, tolerant and rational.

The danger in all the labeling is that we forget that the real "enemy" can be found staring back from the mirror every morning.

Regards John

---

04 Feb 01 - 11:49 AM (#389685)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

After my success with the blue clicky thing, I'm trying to italicize. HTML is just like the old Xerox meta-code or mainframe based printing.. Tedious.

Chicago John, Beg pardon, but socialism is much more the politics of selfishness then any other political party. Socialism says- "What is yours is also mine" If that isn't selfish, I dunno what is

I believe that the"what's yours..." is communism, not socialism.

After the investigation of Florida by Democrats, they found 1 (ONE) person who had said that they had been denied the right to vote. That is not depriving blacks the right to vote. Assuming that the 1 (ONE) person was telling the truth, it does not form a pattern of discimination

The investigation is on-going (and the claims of voting irregularities predates the presidential election by a couple of years). Miami-Dade went over the voting rolls and found that there were a number of people who were listed as felons and not allowed to vote. Similarity, people who weren't citizens were allowed to vote They found over 100 problems as I recall. This from the corrected voter rolls supplied by Tallahassee. My county started verifying the list and finally tossed it as hopelessly inaccurate. People were denied the right to vote, of all ethnic backgrounds. How many before its wrong? Yeah? As in the VERY unselfish "Can I have $650,000 a year for an apartment?" Clinton? Clinton blew it. Is that worse than having a sports stadium built by the taxpayers for your team? Clinton being wrong doesn't make the other side right.

The Constitution is very specific on what government shouldn't do. But you can't seriously argue that the founding fathers would be *for* giving away air-conditioners. If they knew that we would be considering such things, they certainly would have stopped it from happening

As the founding fathers have been dead these many years, I don't really care. I strongly suspect I wouldn't have liked a lot fo the founding fathers. Especially those who had to be pressured into the Bill of Rights. They created a living document. It wasn't divinely inspired or written on stone tablets and brought down from the mountain. How it's used is for us to decided, through our elected representatives.(Which works better on paper than in reality?).

I have a bunch of problems with the above statement. The most successful "kids" today are from the internet era. They work longer then 40 hours a week of their own accord. They do so because they are smart, and make good money. The people in this world who make the most money do NOT stick to a 40-hour week

Define "successful. Their families, doctors and therapist might disagree,. The 40-hour work week came about because people weren't being compensated. Industry self-regulation didn't work.

Looking at the failure rate of dot.com, e-commerce and internet related industries, including the massive losses reported each quarter even from the successful ones, "smart' may be pushing it. An analysis of Silicon Valley successes indicated that general knowledge of business and marketing principals and high levels of social skills were what succeeded, not technical expertise.

With Ashcroft in, can developing a program to locate politically non-conservative ideas on the internet and deal harshly with the malefactors be far behind Are you kidding me???

Obviously. Well, obviously it wasn't, but yes.

Why do you think it's stupid to stop felons from voting? I think that once someone has served whatever sentence is imposed, they've "paid their debt to society". No problem with them not being able to vote while they're serving out their sentence. In theory, we have the belief that our goal is to rehabilitate (stressing the "in theory"). This runs counter to that. It also further marginalizes and stigmatizes people and would seem (at least intuitively) to be more part of the problem than the solution

On the contrary, most corporations pay their most valued people very well. I have a friend who works on firewalls. He gets paid very, very, well

And should. I said "valued" not "well paid". The University of Michigan Graduate School of Management does a lot of training, collects a lot of information. When you ask the general employee population why they work for the company, pay is anywhere from 4th to 6th on the list. Ask the senior managers and pay is #1.

It's nice if you have both. When it's all about money, productivity suffers, in the long run. People who are treated like cogs in the machine, no matter how well paid, tend to start acting like one.

Sorcha,

Both of the Clintons lost a lot of my respect over the Senate/Real Estate deal and the Pelitier Pardon. Not to mention the WhiteWater thing. At the time, I did not put a lot of stock in that, but now???????? Ditto IMO, Clinton being a scum has little to do with whether his political agenda has merit. Regards

John

---

04 Feb 01 - 12:20 PM (#389713)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

Greg,

MPD. An unfamiliar abbreviation but one I ought to know. Please illuminate.

Another take: As the demands on an non-complex belief system grow, internal contradictions appear and expand. It has to either fragment or retreat into pure dogma.

Either outcome is acceptable.

Regards

John

---

04 Feb 01 - 12:26 PM (#389717)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,sunshine 444

MAV, tell them to put their money where their mouth is.

Roger

---

04 Feb 01 - 12:40 PM (#389732)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,Sunshine 444

Hang in there MAV, be back to you shortly. I see Chicago John is here as well. As Arnold said "I'll be back".

Roger

---

04 Feb 01 - 12:41 PM (#389735)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

Sunshine44,

But wanting me to put my money where your mouth is is fine? QED.

Regards,

John

---

04 Feb 01 - 05:37 PM (#389931)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Greg F.

You may have something there, John. Or perhaps its just hyenas & other scavengers gathering.

MPD=Multiple Personality Disorder.

Best, Greg

---

04 Feb 01 - 05:59 PM (#389947)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

Greg,

Thanks. I found three references to MPD in my quest. One was a cancer, one had something to do with some sort of parasitic infestation and one was the one you cite. Just one of lifes little coincidences? :-)

And don't discount another (and less tounge in check) explaination. Mav and company, as well as those at the other end of the spectrum, may be 'true believers'. (Which has nothing to do with whether what they believe is true). If you haven't read Eric Hoffer's book of the same name, I recommend it highly.

Regards

John

---

04 Feb 01 - 07:54 PM (#390042)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Greg F.

Un-tongue in cheek, they may indeed be Hoffernian 'true believers' - if they're not simply #$$@*&!!s having their idea of 'fun'.

While that may explain (to a degree)it doesn't excuse or condone. Most of history's atrocities were (and still are) committed by "true believers" of whatever political/religious/social/etc. dogma you wish, from Pope Innocent thru Stalin to Timothy McVeigh.

Not a comforting thought.

Best, Greg

---

04 Feb 01 - 08:37 PM (#390080)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV

"mav seems to be undergoing a form of mitotic division.......or perhaps its budding? Possibly MPD"

No, I knew you guys missed me when I was unable to post, so I told some cohorts about the LSCs in here and boom, they showed up.

algor has MPD, I believe that's why he flunked out of divinity school, demonic possession.

har, har, har

mav out

---

04 Feb 01 - 08:48 PM (#390088)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV

Skeptic,

""American free enterprise is the entity born of economic freedom and is a natural phenomenon of human nature" Huh?. I understand the sentiment, just not the logic. "Natural phenomenon? " How so"

One dirt farmer grows hogs, one grows corn, a woman in town weaves fabric, someone makes pottery....they trade goods. One person sells products on consignment for a commission while the producer is doing what he does best.

It's been going on for centuries.

mav out

---

04 Feb 01 - 08:52 PM (#390089)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Troll

It is unfortunate, but it would seem that the people who, for good or ill,get things done and make changes that affect the world, are people of passion- true believers if you will.
Moderates don't change much of anything. When you can see all sdies, how do you choose.
"True Belivers" lie at BOTH ends of the spectrum.

troll

---

04 Feb 01 - 09:42 PM (#390107)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

mav,

Centuries does not make it a natural phenomena, just an historical one. People have to eat, want shelter and enjoy "luxuries" (things beyond the necessary). To achieve that, some form of an economy has to exist. What you described is a basic barter economy. Works fairly well at the village level as long as there are social or formal controls to regulate trade and production. In a village, the necessary feedback mechanisms are close: socially, economically and temporally. The larger and more complex the society and culture, the less reliable and timely the built in controls. Ultimately, it appears that the natural feedback loops that regulate such a system start interfere with one another. The result is usually pretty chaotic.

What you haven't demonstrated is that the system you describe is natural or part of human nature. I could describe the socialistic economy of a 12th century Abby, or the communal economy of various tribal communities all over the world. That proves it happens.

You claimed it was human nature. I asked the question seriously. I repeat it. Describing one type of economic system begs the question. Why is free enterprise (not economic activity in general) a natural phenomena and part of human nature?

Please understand, I have nothing against a free enterprise system per se. I'll be happy to argue (as my opinion) that in a large, complex, geographically diverse society, its pretty utopian, makes assumptions about human nature that are not supported by historical evidence and seems to have logical consequences I don't like. Later.

I'd like to explore the natural phenomena/human nature contention first.

troll,

Yes, people of passion can make changes (usually dramatic). Moderates just pick up the pieces and put the world back together again.

Regards,

John

---

04 Feb 01 - 10:23 PM (#390119)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV

Skeptic,

"I think that citizens should vote. It is their right, not their duty. Do you think there should be penalties if people don't vote?

No, the "dumb" vote is useless, only the unscrupulous would exploit it.

"It's the parent's responsibility to educate their children" Does society have a responsibility to ask for a certain quality of that education?

Maybe, depends on what state you live in.

"It's a woman's responsibility not to risk getting pregnant until she's capable of being "responsible" (married) " And the man has no responsibility?

Real men don't get pregnant, I think I commented on that. "I'm sure others will have lots to say on that. The implication of your statement, however, shows a profound disrespect for both men and women"

Men and women should respect their children first and worry about their own "delicate sensibilities" later or do the right thing and get fixed.

"It's a man's responsibility to provide for any children he's sired."

"Ah, having bourne the child, the women's job is done?"

No, it was by no means a full description of "responsibilities"

"By "provide", do you mean provide materially only?"

No.

"And does the community have any responsibilities here"

No, what if there is no "community". At one point they would band together to form a common defense. See faith/community based organizations below.

"Forget the government. Does the Church? Boy/Girl Scouts. Little League?"

They have a function, but it's not really a responsibility, except for the child's safety.

"What if the woman works and the man stays home?"

Then they reverse roles, not a bad thing.

"What if all the man does is provide materially?"

Better than nothing, better than welfare but not as good as a real father.

"It's a citizen's responsibility to be properly trained in the safe operation and ownership of their firearms. Damn. We agree on something."

"It's the parent's responsibility to raise respectful, thoughtful and obedient children so they may become the good citizens and leaders of tomorrow."

"Respect is earned"

Respect your elders, unless they are have totally wasted their life, they have more experience than we do. "Politeness is owed. (IMO)."

OK

"Thoughtful is nice"

Thoughtful is thinking.

"Obedient? To what or to whom?"

The cops is a good start, teachers, people in authority (the judge)

"Obedient to the internal set of values, ethics, morals and beliefs I've helped my son develop? Sure. Willing to accept the consequences of those beliefs, that to. Blind obedience, even to positive and good things, is very dangerous. Solutions and consequences, again. They go hand in hand"

Well, common sense has to be factored in.

"There are some extra-responsibilities too, like community or faith based organizations which can take care of and place unwanted children in loving homes, instead of just killing them"

This addresses your above question.

The criteria imposed for adoption in this country have little to do with the loving nature of the home.

That is not my doing. The LSCs traditionally occupy the social services.

"Uh....many of those "right wing extremists" fought for and many died on behalf of your freedom. They take an oath to DEFEND the Constitution." Freedom is won, or lost, by the day to day actions of its citizens. The sacrifice of those who fought an died must never be forgotten. Liberals, moderates and a lot of others fought an died too. They fought to defend the rights, not define correct behavior, whether on the right or left.

You will find constructionists on the right, anti-Constitutionalists on the left. Many or even most politicians violate their oath to defend and protect the Constitution, either side.

The Constitution is NOT a "living, breathing document", that's just a feeble excuse for violating it, unless of course, you go to the trouble of AMENDING it.

"That would be CHARITY by the church, where it belongs" Christ said charity is the responsibility of the individual and family, not the Church. And I seem to remember that "charity" in the original, implies a lot more than material help.

Faith based criminal "correction" IS a lot more than material help.

"As a member of society, I'll have to deal with the graduates of such a system who elevate political/religious/conservative/liberal "correctness" over mere facts. I object. I should not have to subsidize that kind of sloppy education. The goal of education should be on how to think, not what to think."

Absorbing facts and theories is good.

"The RWE have a very bad habit of believing in the golden rule as long as the people they are doing unto believe the way they do"

Well, if they encounter enemies both foreign and domestic...

"LWE have a similar problem with their political correctness agenda. Fortunately, the majority seem to be more moderate, tolerant and rational"

Well they currently have control over both the education and information systems in the world. Just like it says in the Manifesto.

mav out

---

04 Feb 01 - 10:36 PM (#390123)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,MAV

Skeptic,

"Why is free enterprise (not economic activity in general) a natural phenomena and part of human nature"

Because in an unrestricted condition, a person will find something in which they can excel, specialize and enjoy, and perform that specialty with a passion, especially if they own the property/equipment and can reap benefits in direct proportion to their effort.

The success is its own reward.

Communal living promotes mediocrity.

Why should you work hard on the government farm if you get paid the same (very little) whether you break your back or not? (unless of course they are holding a gun on you)

mav out

---

04 Feb 01 - 11:42 PM (#390147)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST

"I believe that the"what's yours..." is communism, not socialism."

Okay then. Please give me your definition of socialism, and how it is applied in your ideal government.

"The investigation is on-going (and the claims of voting irregularities predates the presidential election by a couple of years)."

There are claims of voting irregularities in every election, in every state. Become a judge of election, and you'll find out how often they occur. Here in Chicago, we had States' Attorney's Office looking over our shoulders all of the time.

"Miami-Dade went over the voting rolls and found that there were a number of people who were listed as felons and not allowed to vote."

Yeah, I read that story. Again, there was no real claim that African Americans were targeted.

"Similarity, people who weren't citizens were allowed to vote They found over 100 problems as I recall. This from the corrected voter rolls supplied by Tallahassee. My county started verifying the list and finally tossed it as hopelessly inaccurate. People were denied the right to vote, of all ethnic backgrounds."

Which is the key. Of all ethnic backgrounds.

"Clinton blew it. Is that worse than having a sports stadium built by the taxpayers for your team?"

Since when did you see me argue for a sports stadium??? Your analogy doesn't even hold on a parallel. One could argue that a sports stadium benifits the many. You can't argue that for Clinton.

"Clinton being wrong doesn't make the other side right."

And I have argued against sports stadiums being publicly funded also.

"As the founding fathers have been dead these many years, I don't really care."

Do you agree with the Constitution as a document?

"I strongly suspect I wouldn't have liked a lot fo the founding fathers."

Given that, I have a strong suspicion that I wouldn't like you.

"Especially those who had to be pressured into the Bill of Rights. They created a living document."

Arrrgh. The *Living Document* people. Q: Did you ever read up on our Constitution just for the heck of it?

"It wasn't divinely inspired or written on stone tablets and brought down from the mountain. How it's used is for us to decided, through our elected representatives."

You could not be more wrong. The Constitution is ONLY supposed to be interpretted by the Supreme Court. Why do you think the legislature has to AMEND the constitution whenever we come up with a way that we want to add to it?

(Which works better on paper than in reality?).

"Define "successful."

Eating well. Vacationing well. Having a nice house, and smiling because they don't complain about money.

"Their families, doctors and therapist might disagree,"

I've been poor and working less then 40 hours. I've made a good living working more then 40 hours/week. I prefer the latter.

"Looking at the failure rate of dot.com, e-commerce and internet related industries, including the massive losses reported each quarter even from the successful ones, "smart' may be pushing it."

Smart people often take chances. Just because they fail the first time out, it doesn't mean that they are stupid. On the contrary, if they are making 6 figures while failing, that's not a bad way to fail.

"I think that once someone has served whatever sentence is imposed, they've "paid their debt to society"."

Just to be clear, then you are FOR former felons voting?

"It also further marginalizes and stigmatizes people and would seem (at least intuitively) to be more part of the problem than the solution"

I have no problem with putting a stigma on being a felon.

"When you ask the general employee population why they work for the company, pay is anywhere from 4th to 6th on the list. Ask the senior managers and pay is #1."

Your argument is backwards. You are telling me what the EMPLOYEE believes, not what the EMPLOYER believes. If management is only after salary, then that's what they get more of. If general employees list salary as 4th or 6th on their list, is it that surprising that they aren't getting paid more?

"When it's all about money, productivity suffers, in the long run."

Based on what style of management?

"Both of the Clintons lost a lot of my respect over the Senate/Real Estate deal and the Pelitier Pardon. Not to mention the WhiteWater thing. At the time, I did not put a lot of stock in that, but now????????"

What took you so long to get on board?????

John

---

05 Feb 01 - 12:57 AM (#390192)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,http://www.delphi.com/FOXsWolves

http://www.delphi.com/FOXsWolves

---

05 Feb 01 - 06:28 AM (#390264)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,Ghostsniper

Hey, Mav;

Hola, amigo. I hear you are in some need of fire support.

Strangely, I seem to recall that the title of this area had to do with music; yet all I seem to be seeing is a bunch of twisting-in-the-wind leftists seeing red that their boy, AlGore, didn't get elected and cause another shooting war in this country.

That at least one person in here, an admitted "proud" socialist (isn't that an oxymoron?) is a teacher in a pub- lic school pretty much explains why the system has failed so miserably over the past couple of decades. I've seen schools in Third World countries that had a better stan- dard of education than a lot of the public schools here.

Some of these people are also, obviously, products of that system and the outcome-based bull utilised therein.

The Sniper is ranging...

---

05 Feb 01 - 07:04 AM (#390270)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,Teacher

Time to get off the computer, sonny, you'll miss the school bus.

---

05 Feb 01 - 01:33 PM (#390524)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

mav, and others I'm responding to the issues I"d like to have some clarified. As you said earlier, we have areas of agreement. And disagreement. And I'm using html tags again, with(I hope) better results.

Maybe, depends on what state you live in

Why would it depend on the State. The question is independent of any political implications. My question (restated): Beyond the obligation of the family (nuclear? Extended?) Does the community have obligations toward education?

Real men don't get pregnant, I think I commented on that

Baring cloning, Men are a necessary part of the pregnancy. I'm in favor of staying involved.

Men and women should respect their children first and worry about their own "delicate sensibilities" later or do the right thing and get fixed.

Without self respect, how to you respect others? A number of studies indicate that low-self esteem correlates with child abuse. I will agree that having children is something that should require a lot of thought. And if by "sensibilities" you mean not making a child and integral part of the parents life on a day to day basis, yes.

No, it was by no means a full description of "responsibilities

It would be interesting to know what the responsibilities are, and whether the responsibilities are the families to work out, or some are the man's some the woman's some both.

No, what if there is no "community". At one point they would band together to form a common defense. See faith/community based organizations below

Begs the question. Does the group (beyond the family) have obligations? If so, what are they?

Forget the government. Does the Church? Boy/Girl Scouts. Little League? and you replied, They have a function, but it's not really a responsibility, except for the child's safety.

The implication is for physical safety only. What are the "functions". Are they necessary or only nice?

You said The cops is a good start, teachers, people in authority (the judge) and I said Obedient to the internal set of values, ethics, morals and beliefs I've helped my son develop? Sure. Willing to accept the consequences of those beliefs, that to. Blind obedience, even to positive and good things, is very dangerous. Solutions and consequences, again. They go hand in hand and you added Well, common sense has to be factored in

On the cops and authority issue, I could argue that under that theory the American Revolution was wrong as the King was exercising his legitimate authority. Our rebellion was rooted in a profound disrespect for that authority. Common sense is a cathc-all for sloppy reasoning.

There are some extra-responsibilities too, like community or faith based organizations which can take care of and place unwanted children in loving homes, instead of just killing them" This addresses your above question.

What other rolls do you view as legitimate?

My comment was The criteria imposed for adoption in this country have little to do with the loving nature of the home and you replied That is not my doing. The LSCs traditionally occupy the social services

On what evidence to you base this contention?. Who "occupies" the social service agencies isn't the issue. Who makes the laws, rules and regulations is. As to whose doing it is, it's all of our doing, by commission or omissions, by tacit or willing compliance.

The Constitution is NOT a "living, breathing document", that's just a feeble excuse for violating it, unless of course, you go to the trouble of AMENDING it.

The founding fathers stated purpose was to create a government of law, not men. Claiming that the constitution is a living, breathing document is more a testimony to their effort than anything. In what ways does that concept relate to violating the Constitution?

Faith based criminal "correction" IS a lot more than material help

It just hasn't proven to be effective in practice. Nor have a lot of other, non-faith based programs, come to that, as both types propose simplistic, cookie cutter solutions. Faith based also comes with a lot of baggage that I prefer not to have to pay for.

Absorbing facts and theories is good

And this means what? If all I want is to learn facts, theories, dates and such, I have a computer and a search engine. Learning facts and theories is the bare bones beginning. Learning how to think is vital.

Well, if they encounter enemies both foreign and domestic...

And not sarcastically, if the enemy isn't there, they are perfectly willing to create one. As the definition of enemy is anyone who doesn't agree with them, they have many candidates.

Well they currently have control over both the education and information systems in the world. Just like it says in the Manifesto

In control? I suppose it helps if you know the answer before you ask the questions and then picking and choosing onlt the facts that support that answer. Leaving out the facts that don't support your position, or claiming they don't count, ends up in decisions that ignore real consequences and tend to foster the idea of conspiracy. Your (or my) slopping thinking doesn't mean that a plot exists. The Manifesto? As in Communist Manifesto? Can the Gnomes of Zurich or the Illuminatus be far behind? The claim of a conspiracy is an extraordinary claim. It requires extraordinary proof. Anecdotes aren't proof, just good stories. Coincidences aren't either. Retreating into "they make sure there is no proof" begs the question. Because in an unrestricted condition, a person will find something in which they can excel, specialize and enjoy, and perform that specialty with a passion, especially if they own the property/equipment and can reap benefits in direct proportion to their effort

A fascinating theory. You imply this is some innate trait of man. It might be a nice theory but reality keeps rearing its ugly head.

Unrestricted or otherwise, humans first seek shelter, safety, food, companionship and to reproduce. Beyond that it gets very fuzzy. What evidence supports this theory? I'd say that successful mediocrity wins out over excellence every time. Excellence takes a lot of time and work.

Finding The Answer before you ask any question is dangerous at any point on the political spectrum.

The success is its own reward

An ego boost, certainly but otherwise a non-statement. Neither success nor reward is a specific measurable, both are highly subjective.

Communal living promotes mediocrity

Maybe. It can also promote excellence as it allows the individual the physical and mental security to concentrate on whatever they want to concentrate on. In certain environments and social situations it may be a necessity.

Why should you work hard on the government farm if you get paid the same (very little) whether you break your back or not? (unless of course they are holding a gun on you)

You shouldn't.

And another Guest wrote

Okay then. Please give me your definition of socialism, and how it is applied in your ideal government

Difficult as I'm not a big fan of pure socialism. The classic defintion is: "a system of social organization in which private property and the distribution of income are subject to social control, rather than to determination by individuals pursuing their own interests or by the market forces of capitalism." (From the on-line Britannica)

I don't do "ideal governments" as such seems and oxymoron. I prefer to look at what my values and goals are(which I've stated fairly clearly on this and other threads)., and how to best accomplish them practically. (Based on how people do act, not how I want them to act). If capitalism or socialism have elements that work, then incorporate them. All the "isms" "ists" and "ocracies" need to fit people. Trying to stuff people in boxes because someone has decided that this theory or the other is "true" has never worked, except maybe in the short run.

I am interested in values. Personal values. Build on that and look at the lesson's of history. Of science, of experience. Is it practical. What are the consequences?. If I have a basic value that says it is wrong for people to be hungry, I need to figure out ways to make that happen. (Not "a way"). Do I just feed the hungry no matter what? Probably not, as that isn't practical and would go against other values. Do I let them starve because "all they have to do is try and if they won't help themselves why should I?". No, because that says my value against letting people starve when I can help is just lip services.

It starts with individual values, not with some external dogma. Finding an answer an then forcing facts to fit and demanding that only one way works is wrong from whatever point it comes.

What are your values? Not what principals do you like. Capitalism isn't a value, neither is socialism. Family, integrity, charity, respect are values, the individuallity is a value. If I understand my values, then whatever system I propose has to be consistent (if I value integrity). Again, it starts with the individual and builds up. The thrust of what you propose is to build from some assumed-to-be-right theoretical structure down, rejecting any fact that doesn't fit and belittling anyone who doesn't agree. Labeling people as this or that (until they've proven other wise, is intellectual dishonesty.

There are claims of voting irregularities in every election, in every state. Become a judge of election, and you'll find out how often they occur. Here in Chicago, we had States' Attorney's Office looking over our shoulders all of the time.

Yes, there are. Our Canvassing Board deals with it regularly, too. As Florida has a strong Government in the Sunshine law, observing is very easy. Claims of fraud have to be addressed, not ignored.

Yeah, I read that story. Again, there was no real claim that African Americans were targeted

Who cares who was targeted? Claiming that the exclusions were deliberately based on race isn't here nor there. If people were excluded we need to find out why.

Carelessness may work, except that after the fiasco in Miami-Dade a couple of years ago, where there was fraud, the fact that they didn't clean it up demands more of an explanation than "oops".

Which is the key. Of all ethnic backgrounds

That's why I said it.

Since when did you see me argue for a sports stadium??? Your analogy doesn't even hold on a parallel. One could argue that a sports stadium benifits the many. You can't argue that for Clinton.

I didn't see you argue for a stadium and you see that don't like it. Just as you didn't see me argue for socialism. I brought it up as an example of using tax-payers money and political influence for personal gain (which is related to Clinton) and in answer to early posts. And studies done of the impact and benefit of stadiums (the ones not done by the club owners) show that the economic benefit is either much overstated or non-existent.

Do you agree with the Constitution as a document?

Yes

I said "I strongly suspect I wouldn't have liked a lot of the founding fathers." You replied Given that, I have a strong suspicion that I wouldn't like you

I'm devastated. And the statement may be too general as I've only read biographies of 6 or 7 of them. I don't disparage what was finally produced, just that looking at their lives, they don't deserve to be canonized. Arrrgh. The *Living Document* people. Q: Did you ever read up on our Constitution just for the heck of it?

Yes. Did you every study it? Have you read "The Federalist's Papers". Hamilton's Essay's? Any of Jefferson's commentaries?. Read any of the minutes of the Constitutional Conventions? Any collections of editorials from the various colonial newspapers of the time? If so, then we have interpreted things differently and I'd be interested in discussing your views off-forum. If not, your opinions are based on hearsay, the opinion/analysis of others who support your preconceived opinions, and urban legend.

You could not be more wrong. The Constitution is ONLY supposed to be interpretted by the Supreme Court. Why do you think the legislature has to AMEND the constitution whenever we come up with a way that we want to add to it?

I was getting at the Constitution as a framework and set of rules under which the legislature passes laws to accomplish its purposes. They interpret how far they are allowed to go. If they're wrong (by accident or for purposeful political reasons), the Supreme Court ends up involved.

"Eating well. Vacationing well. Having a nice house, and smiling because they don't complain about money".

All nice but I hope you have more of a personal value system than that. I think you may find that all those things (which we all want), are merely satisfying. And fairly superficial.

I've been poor and working less then 40 hours. I've made a good living working more then 40 hours/week. I prefer the latter.

Have you been poor working 40 (or more) hours a week? Or know people who are?

Smart people often take chances. Just because they fail the first time out, it doesn't mean that they are stupid. On the contrary, if they are making 6 figures while failing, that's not a bad way to fail

No it isn't. Of course, it's a matter of intent. Are they interested in actually producing something or just making the six figures? And, yes, I think it matters.

Just to be clear, then you are FOR former felons voting?

Yes.

I have no problem with putting a stigma on being a felon

I do as its one element in a high recidivism rate.

Your argument is backwards. You are telling me what the EMPLOYEE believes, not what the EMPLOYER believes. If management is only after salary, then that's what they get more of. If general employees list salary as 4th or 6th on their list, is it that surprising that they aren't getting paid more?

Since the employee is the one doing the work, yes I am. And if salary is what its all about, its not surprising that companies have major productivity, turnover and customer service issues.

I said When it's all about money, productivity suffers, in the long run. and you replied Based on what style of management?

On almost any type of management that views money as the primary motivator.

And Guest Teacher wrote

Time to get off the computer, sonny, you'll miss the school bus.

What more can be said?

Regards,

John

---

05 Feb 01 - 01:54 PM (#390554)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: mousethief

Ghostsniper brayed:

Hey, Mav;

Hola, amigo. I hear you are in some need of fire support.

Actually MAV is capable of providing plenty of fire. Just very little in the way of light. I see you're from the same school.

Strangely, I seem to recall that the title of this area had to do with music; yet all I seem to be seeing is a bunch of twisting-in-the-wind leftists seeing red that their boy, AlGore, didn't get elected and cause another shooting war in this country.

Golly, I haven't seen anyone mention Al Gore in .... I think you're the first, come to think of it. Which makes me think you really haven't read the thread before commenting on it, which makes me think you're an idiot.

That at least one person in here, an admitted "proud" socialist (isn't that an oxymoron?) is a teacher in a pub- lic school pretty much explains why the system has failed so miserably over the past couple of decades. I've seen schools in Third World countries that had a better stan- dard of education than a lot of the public schools here.

Not used to word-wrap, are you? Ah, so you're saying the system has "failed so miserably" (does that mean it succeeded?) because of the existence of one socialist teacher? We aren't arguing that there are problems with the public schools. We all agree on that. If you had read the thread, you would have noticed that. Your "third world" comment is therefore just so much ignorant flaming. The question is on how to fix them. MAV thinks the best way to make the public schools better is to take money away from them. We disagree.

Some of these people are also, obviously, products of that system and the outcome-based bull utilised therein.

Ah. More insults, but still nothing of any substance. No wonder you choose "Ghostsniper" as your nickname.

Far be it from me to tell you what to do, but I'd humbly ask that you either contribute to the conversation, or go away.

Thanks.

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05 Feb 01 - 03:06 PM (#390641)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

Mousethief said. Far be it from me to tell you what to do, but I'd humbly ask that you either contribute to the conversation, or go away

I'm not holding my breath. Mav may be interested in a conversation. I'm reserving opinion on the rest.

They act like brothers in spirit to both Amr Ibn el-As and Theophilus of Alexandria (the stories about these two may be urban legends but they're useful urban legends.)

Regards,

JOhn

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05 Feb 01 - 08:05 PM (#390945)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,TheRaven

"If I had a kid, I would choose carefully, and look for a good ratio of kids to adults and a stimulating and safe environment."

How about choosing to raise the kid yourself instead of palming it off to somebody else?

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05 Feb 01 - 08:09 PM (#390949)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST,TheRaven

"Sen McCarthy was the Godfather of Bobby Kennedy's oldest child."

And Bobby Kennedy was probably the biological father of Sen. McCarthy's oldest child. Well, maybe Jack got in there first. Who knows? Maybe Teddy drove it off a bridge and drowned it? Who cares.

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05 Feb 01 - 08:12 PM (#390950)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: GUEST

"Knowing how to reach the child is part of the art of teaching. I had a few duds but many of my teachers were artists of the first order."

Teaching is the art of varied repetition. ~ TheRaven

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05 Feb 01 - 09:17 PM (#390995)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

How about choosing to raise the kid yourself instead of palming it off to somebody else?

Which might have some truth in it if thats what had been said. A little effort toward or even the pretense, of intellectual honesty would be nice.

And Bobby Kennedy was probably the biological father of Sen. McCarthy's oldest child. Well, maybe Jack got in there first. Who knows? Maybe Teddy drove it off a bridge and drowned it? Who cares.

Another pearl of wisdom from the historically challanged. Explained by this:

Teaching is the art of varied repetition

That is called instruction. A very different thing, in intent, method and outcome. If you're going to try to show off, please do it with a little style, and make some attempt to think first.

Most of us have a fairly high tolerance for contrary opinins. A lot less for the manifestly and repeatably foolish.

If you want to participate, then please offer something besides meaningless sound bites.

Regards

John

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05 Feb 01 - 09:36 PM (#391005)
Subject: RE: BS: Bushwacked - Four
From: Skeptic

Continued on Bushwacked FIVE

Click here Maybe for the new thread.

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