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07 Feb 01 - 04:24 AM (#391948) Subject: Too many Taverns? From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler I'm not hooked up to the outside world at home from my PC so I have no personal axe to grind on Hearme/Paltalk, closed or open sessions but I do find the hi-jacking of the term "Tavern" for the on-line singalongs confusing as this has hitherto been used for the lighthearted threads where we could all shoot the breeze. I see even Max has been confused by this so It's not just me being my usual Village Idiot (3rd class). Could you call the PalTalk threads something more specific for the benefit of those of us who are cerebrally challenged (ie thick)? RtS (pretty please) |
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07 Feb 01 - 10:37 AM (#392098) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: katlaughing Good idea, RtS |
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07 Feb 01 - 10:46 AM (#392106) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Katcina Hmmmmmmmmm.............. Interesting thought. I never thought there could be such a thing as too many taverns but maybe that is the case in this instance. Katcina |
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07 Feb 01 - 10:56 AM (#392114) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: catspaw49 Trust me .....It is. Thanks Skiff. Go for Paltalk Pub or something.........The "Taverns" have a long history around here and its easier to call the Paltalk stuff something else. Spaw |
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07 Feb 01 - 11:18 AM (#392132) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: wysiwyg I definitely agree. In recent days, to suggest someone visit The Tavern has been to recommend a VR drink, a public fight between folk club leaders, a concert, an exclusive club, and an open pub session. As I stated in another thread, I believe the titles to invitations or notices of online song circles should emphasize that they are in fact live, online, acoustic song circles. Hanging a cute name on them is nice for Mudcat regulars, but a newcomer would not recognize them among the list of threads, as such, by the titles they have had. Also, if threads that are started about these could include a brief description of what they are and how they work, who is admin for the open room of the moment, as well as the link, it would cut down on some of the karaoke confusion, maybe, as well as orienting people to what to expect. (Each admin can craft a statement that suggests how they "run" the thing-- haven't you been to open mikes that one person runs one way, and another runs some other way? Part of the responsibility of starting the thread, if you are an admin, could include recognition of the fact that there are lots of new people here all the time.) This would be easier than it sounds-- just draft some boilerplate copy and put it on your clipboard to add each time, or even just a link to a thread that would describe it, as part of the opening post in such threads. This would go a long way to dispelling the appearance that these are just for "me and my friends" which is a sense some people have unfortunately developed about you wonderful people who do the hard work to inititate and manage this amazing resource. And please, get this stuff running right, would you???? *G* I am dying to come back to these again, and as soon as I get my new computer I hope to find PalTalk or whatever, humming! (That's how we say "Thanks for all your hard work" here in Tioga County, home of the backwards nicety, where people can hardly bear being appreciated unless you sneak it past them.) ~Susan |
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07 Feb 01 - 11:20 AM (#392136) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: nutty Simply calling them the "PALTALK TAVERN" and the "MUDCAT TAVERN" should be enough - shouldn't it ? After all we have hundreds of pubs , bars ,clubs and hotels which all have the same name but are distinguished between by their location |
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07 Feb 01 - 11:25 AM (#392143) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: nutty I also meant to say that I agree with Susan that a description when posting opening times might be useful |
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07 Feb 01 - 11:25 AM (#392144) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: wysiwyg nutty, There are billions of Mudcat Tavern threads already, having nothing to do with songstuff. ~Carl Sagan |
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07 Feb 01 - 11:40 AM (#392168) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: MMario I would think "Paltalk" and "Mudcat" would help distinguish them, yes. |
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07 Feb 01 - 12:48 PM (#392263) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: nutty Thats why I thought you were suggesting posting a description, Susan - so there would be no misunderstandings |
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07 Feb 01 - 12:57 PM (#392269) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: katlaughing Tavern needs to be kept separate for the various virtual BS:Tavern Incarnation No. zillionth and should not be used in any of the PalTalk names. BUT, I do think it is important for Mudcat to be part of any Paltalk room. Any of them are part of the Mudcat, so to speak, and people have come to recognise that in their names.
Mudcat Open Sing, or Mudcat Live Sing, or Mudcat Live Acoustic Sing seem to be okay |
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07 Feb 01 - 01:03 PM (#392277) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Wolfgang Isn't it so that the breeze shooting is now done in threads that do not exist? Wolfgang |
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07 Feb 01 - 01:04 PM (#392279) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: nutty This forum really does amaze me . Is there anything that you are not prepared to argue about? |
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07 Feb 01 - 01:08 PM (#392281) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Amergin Well, nutty, the short answer is no. |
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07 Feb 01 - 01:17 PM (#392294) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: katlaughing There is a discussion going on here; people's opinion are being expressed. The BS Taverns were started a long time ago after a particularly bad spell of the worst flaming and personal attacks ever seen, at that time, on the Mudcat. It was started as a haven for us all to go to. Since then, we had dozens of them, some quite memorable. If you go to the first permathread, Mudcat FAQs, and look for the link to Lonesome EJ's Memorable threads you will see at least one of them listed. So, over the years, before Paltalk, before Hearme, we all came to recognise "Tavern" as one of the BS fun threads where almost anything was possible and one could always expect to find a hug etc. IMO, "Tavern" needs to remain identifiable as that type of thread. Otherwise it will confuse people, as it already has done the Mudcat's owner, Max.
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07 Feb 01 - 01:25 PM (#392307) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Jon Freeman MMario and Nutty, one would think so but I have opened a few Mudcat Tavern threads (or perhaps the same one several times - I closed them as soon as I realised) since the Paltalk Tavern came to be and they are threads that I normaly choose not to open. That is no big deal to me but I am obviously one of the cerebally challenged as RtS puts it. Jon |
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07 Feb 01 - 01:46 PM (#392326) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: nutty I am sorry to hear of past problems but as a more recent member I am unaware of such problems which, presumably have now been resolved I was also unaware of a virtual Mudcat Tavern I certainly can't find any information about it in the New Members Guide The reason I joined Mudcat is that I am folkie to the heart and that means I attend "real" folk clubs and singarounds, sing "real" folk songs and drink "real" beer |
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07 Feb 01 - 02:02 PM (#392342) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: katlaughing I think the problem is not so much "Tavern" in the actual Paltalk listings, but when someone posts a thread saying the Tavern is open, meaning the one on Paltalk. Here is a link to the first Mudcat Tavern thread. If you put Tavern in the filter box, at the top of the threads, then set the time back to 3 years, all of them come up. The majority of us do also live in the 3D world, meeting other Mudcatters, performing etc; the virtual Tavern is just another well-loved aspect of the Mudcat community. |
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07 Feb 01 - 02:10 PM (#392350) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Metchosin well in some "real taverns" I've been in nutty comments like that would get you a "real" punch in the nose. |
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07 Feb 01 - 02:17 PM (#392357) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Metchosin I have a Mac, in order to access the Paltalk and Hearme stuff, I will have to fork out $224 to get a program that will enable my Mac to become a virtual PC........Sorry, the cover charge is too high..... |
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07 Feb 01 - 02:24 PM (#392366) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Jon Freeman Nutty, as with just about everyhing on Mudcat, the Mudcat Tavern is not everyones cup of tea (it certainly isn't mine). It is however an important part of Mudcat for many and I think that you will find that many of the "Taverners" 'attend "real" folk clubs and singarounds, sing "real" folk songs and drink "real" beer' and even if some don't, I don't see that it matters. Having no personal feelings towards the Mudcat Tavern does however lead me to see the problem differently to kat though in that BOTH Mudcat Taverners and Paltalk Taveners can get confused when they see the "The Tavern Is Open". I suppose, all in all I think that a change of name for the Paltalk Room would be a good idea. When I started it it was the Mudcat Song Circle. If Amegin is willing, there is no reason why he can't rename his room to the original Paltalk name I used for these events. Jon
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07 Feb 01 - 02:32 PM (#392370) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Jon Freeman Metchosin, I and I think MMario (and maybe others) of the PC users are always on the lookout for a program suitable for all. I filled out a Paltalk Survey around Chrismas and complained about lack of Mac support in the comments section but I doubt that it will do any good... I just wish I knew why companies like Hearme and Paltalk don't seem to be interested in supporting both platforms. Jon |
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07 Feb 01 - 02:41 PM (#392379) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: wysiwyg I just want it to emphasize that is is online and live-- so it isn't also confused with threads just chatting about sessions one has been to, or planned sessions, see? BTW, I didn't see anyone offering to argue here, just tossing out ideas. Like Kat did. So springboarding from her excellent ideas: 'Cat Live Online Songcircle (date) ought to fit in the threads' subject line. Or 'Cat Online Songcircle. What do you think, Kat? ~S~ |
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07 Feb 01 - 02:43 PM (#392381) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: nutty No problems there with me Jon - I always thought that the Mudcat Song Circle was an extremely appropriate name |
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07 Feb 01 - 02:46 PM (#392388) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: MMario Yes john - I am on the lookout for a bi-platform program; and I agree - the multiplicity of threads lately has been confusing. |
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07 Feb 01 - 02:48 PM (#392390) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: wysiwyg Or 'Cat Songcircle Online NOW |
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07 Feb 01 - 02:48 PM (#392391) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Metchosin Jon I would love to be there, it is the only time that I regret my dear Mac but I won't hold my breath until a Mac platform is available either. Apparently the PC Emulator works well and is available for $149 US, but in Canadian funds its a little beyond my budget. I must remember the commas, I must remember the commas, I must remember the commas......... |
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07 Feb 01 - 03:11 PM (#392406) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Greyeyes People on the Mudcat do not argue. It is a forum for fair and frank exchanges of opinion. |
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07 Feb 01 - 03:19 PM (#392415) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: nutty I apologise if I have upset anyone with my comments I must have misread or misunderstood the thread |
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07 Feb 01 - 03:23 PM (#392418) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Liz the Squeak Waddaya mean, we don't argue - do ya wanna take it outside?? LTS *BG* |
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07 Feb 01 - 03:24 PM (#392419) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Matt_R YEP! Can't have a Tavern without a good ol' fashioned BAR ROOM BRAWL!!! --Matt (ducks flying chair bits) |
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07 Feb 01 - 03:25 PM (#392421) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Greyeyes Well stuff you then! My jacket's off. |
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07 Feb 01 - 03:27 PM (#392427) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: katlaughing I always liked Mudcat Song Circle, too. |
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07 Feb 01 - 03:34 PM (#392432) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: wysiwyg Mudcat LIVE ONLINE Song Circle. Will it fit on the subject line? ~S~ |
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07 Feb 01 - 03:39 PM (#392434) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Jon Freeman "People on the Mudcat do not argue. It is a forum for fair and frank exchanges of opinion." If only that were true Greyeyes. I saw red the other day and was expressing myself more in temper i.e. arguing as opposed to discussing. I think it fair to say temper flare ups are rare here though and tend to blow over quickly. Jon |
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07 Feb 01 - 03:41 PM (#392437) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Matt_R How about The Official http://www.mudcat.org Mudcat Cafe Music Forum: A Magazine Dedicated To Folk And Blues (Another Onstage Media Presentation)'s Paltalk Live Voice Chat Room For Actual Live Singing And Instrument PLaying OF Folk & BLues Music No Recordings No Karaoke If You Don't Like It I'll Boot Yer Ass Tavern .....? |
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07 Feb 01 - 03:43 PM (#392439) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: wysiwyg A winner! In red type of course, and blinking. ~S~ |
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07 Feb 01 - 03:57 PM (#392456) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Greyeyes Jon, I am one of the most argumentative people in the world, and infuriate others by refusing to admit that I ever argue, I always claim I am engaged in a "fair and frank exchange of opinions", which is really a euphemism for arguing. Nutty was right, I was just having a private joke. |
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07 Feb 01 - 04:47 PM (#392505) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: wysiwyg Kat (et al)-- May I offer EXTREMELY RESPECTFULLY and in a total spirit of caring creativity-- Is is possible that part of the problem has been the differences between what we here in the US might perceive as: 1. A generally smallish Song Circle with a peer as facilitator, which might be held in a home, a school, a church, etc., and which would be somewhere on a continuum from fully invitational to fully open, as determined by whoever starts it or is running it on any given day... (And is this, in UK terms, a "Snug"???) and 2. A potentially large, open-but-MC'd Open Mike held in a bar, tavern, club, coffeehouse, etc.? (Is this what is a "Tavern" in UK terms? [Apparently what we DON'T have (yet) are SESSIONS (or, in US terms, JAMS) where people all bring songs to try as a group and everyone who wants to plays together simultaneously. Maybe that's just as well, think how BIG it would be!] SO--- work with me here-- M'cat Snug: Live Online Songcircle and M'cat Tavern: Live Open Mike ??????? At the discretion of whoever is opening a room? Kat? Howzzat? ~S~ |
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07 Feb 01 - 05:17 PM (#392532) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: nutty As I understand it, a tavern is a public house, hotel or any form of hostelry where drinking takes place A snug is a smallish room - often reserved for regulars - within that public house, hotel or hostelry Within said public house etc a number of activities might take place 1.a session - usually an informal get together of singers and/or musicians 2 a singaround - hosted by a peer or organiser, the singing/playing moves informally around the room with everyone invited to take part and open to everyone although there may be a small fee 3a singers night - again open to everyone to sing and play at the discretion of the organiser - these are sometimes accoustic but often open mike evenings 4 Guest night - an evening where a paid (usually) performer will entertain for the majority of the evening with the rest of the time filled by local singers and musicians (at the discretion of the organiser) 5 Concert - sometimes pay at the door and open to everyone - sometimes admission by ticket only - generally open to anyone who can afford to go
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07 Feb 01 - 05:34 PM (#392543) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: McGrath of Harlow Perhaps we should have a series of thread called Mudcat Brawls - there could be Mudcat Gun Law Brawl, and Mudcat "What is Folk" Brawl and so forth.
Then maybe we move on to having them live as well - but Paltalk Brawl sounds a bit paradoxical (Though really it shouldn't, because good brawls tend to be between pals. As opposed to wars, which aren't. We don't need those here.) |
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07 Feb 01 - 06:00 PM (#392574) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: catspaw49 Sweet Jesus suckin' mothers milk!!! Way back up at the top, I suggested Pub, as in "PalTalk Pub" which accurately reflects the Irish lineage here and subs well overall for Tavern.......whatever.............Do you think we could avoid making a shitload of rules regarding sizes and all of that????
PATTERSON'S LAW This thread proves what I have often said......If you give a man the job of "Button Pushing" and tell him all he has to do is press the button once an hour, within days there'd be an "OFFICIAL RULES & REGULATIONS ON BUTTON PUSHING" two inches thick. Spaw |
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07 Feb 01 - 06:10 PM (#392583) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: katlaughing I have nothing further to say..already posted suggestions |
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07 Feb 01 - 06:20 PM (#392592) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Dave Wynn We should have more threads like this...I can't stop laughing...and (donning my pedant head) a brawl is a french dance!. I'll be there whatever you call it (as Iarf) please post a thread when you make up your minds.... Spot (who runs a 3D real life FC where real people drink real...etc etc and has never knowingly been in a real tavern) the dog. |
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07 Feb 01 - 06:24 PM (#392596) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Jon Freeman If we were going to use a pub type word, Inn would sound far better than pub but the question is does one announce an event or the location of the event? I went for The Mudcat Song Circle (the event)which takes place in Paltalk and I think that is far more logical than advertising say the Mudcat Inn - what happens at the Mudcat Inn? Jon (who's not really worried what it ends up as being called) |
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07 Feb 01 - 06:31 PM (#392601) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Jon Freeman Spot, wearing my pendant hat: the dance is spelt branle or bransle. Jon |
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07 Feb 01 - 06:40 PM (#392605) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Dave Wynn I am only a dog Jon....phonetic is the best I can do...when I bark it's spelled Wuff not wrunffsle. ;-) (I knew there was a correct spelling but didn't have the skills to find it!! Honest!) Spotsle |
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07 Feb 01 - 06:43 PM (#392608) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Jon Freeman Spot to be honest with you, I only found out its proper spelling when I posted a question about "The Horses Brawl" in rec.music.celtic some time ago. Jon |
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07 Feb 01 - 06:44 PM (#392611) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Lanfranc Holy sh**!! I was just walking down Paltalk Main Street, and all of a sudden there were muddy moggies flying through windows and doors and bits of broken furniture everywhere. It makes you feel just a bit wanted when you log in to PalTalk and find yourself inundated with invitations, but, hell, there are old friends split over several sites - who do you offend first - you can't pretend not to be there? I'm only a passing musicianer who enjoys playing to an audience and chatting to friends. Life's getting too complicated. I know there have been problems, but lighten up, folks, it's starting to feel a bit like Palestine hereabouts! It's almost enough to make me set up Radio Lanfranc, but, hey, wouldn't that be an ego trip?
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07 Feb 01 - 06:45 PM (#392613) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: catspaw49 What was wrong, asked the dumbass Spaw, with just saying PalTalk as we had been??? Why did we even get the tavern involved???? The tavern is the tavern as a tiple is a tiple as a possum is a possum as a catfish in a banjo is a catfish in a banjo. Who got the bright idea of using tavern anyway? Again, I don't care, just find another name and let Max get a cyber shot at the Tavern. Spaw |
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07 Feb 01 - 07:03 PM (#392631) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Greyeyes Anyway, I'm interested to know who, if anyone, is winning this fair and frank exchange of opinions :-) |
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07 Feb 01 - 07:07 PM (#392638) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Tyke You can please some of the people some of the time......... Them that never makes a buggar Makes buggar all. I have been listening to the singaround for a couple of nights now. It seems well run with a mix of music that you would find. In the North of England at a singeraround I can't see what the fuss is about. It wheelchair acsessable noone seems to mind if I smoke. As long as I don't spill my coffee/Beer/Wine or whatever on the electrics I can drink whatever I want. With no chance of a drink driving charge on my wat to bed. I have to say that when I first heard about the Mudcat tavern I thought Get a life but it fine. I realy don't care what you call it. Advertising somthing and then just when it gets people coming along Changing the name makes no sense to me. But who whant's "Folk Music" to be popular anyway! Is there a timetable for these singarounds? By the time I have found the event it too late for me to start joining in with a song. I'm just too nice to my neigbours! Please let me know what you have decided to call the Paltalk sing When you come to some agreement. Cheers |
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07 Feb 01 - 07:11 PM (#392642) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: nutty The only person who seems not to have been included in the 'fair and frank exchange of views' is the person who set up the room,I think Although I could be wrong - someone may have asked his opinion - surely it would be bad manners not too |
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07 Feb 01 - 07:13 PM (#392643) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Dave Wynn Lanfranc....where you been!....it's been flack jackets and walking on eggshells around here. What frequency is this radio station you are going to start? and can I have a spot. Spot |
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07 Feb 01 - 07:52 PM (#392671) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: wysiwyg I don't know why some of you see brawls in this thread, or attempts to make rules, or people trying to impose their solutions on others. What I see is people saying what they are thinking, and people continuing to think about a complex issue that has been unresolved thus far. ~S~ |
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07 Feb 01 - 08:03 PM (#392676) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Dave (the ancient mariner) I agree the Tavern was unique to the threads and I guess it's use causes confusion and rancour. I promise never to open that room again. |
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07 Feb 01 - 08:14 PM (#392686) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Metchosin what's complex? fer gawd sakes name the room/rooms! just don't call them the Mudcat Tavern/Pub! It confuses some of us electronically challenged individuals who have been visiting the Mudcat Tavern or variations thereof, since their inception....mention Hearme or Paltalk, what could be simpler. |
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07 Feb 01 - 08:49 PM (#392720) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Metchosin WOW! I killed a thread again! Yahoo! |
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07 Feb 01 - 08:58 PM (#392724) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: wysiwyg Mets, IMHO, what's been complex are all the apparetnly conflicting issues, approaches, feelings, ideals, and needs of all concerned, which have recently seen so much upset swirling around as quite a few people tried to come up with what would work for EVERYONE. What's been simple is each time someone has said, "It's real simple-- just do it MY way!" or "You don't know what you're talking about, just do THIS!" *G* ~S~ |
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07 Feb 01 - 09:21 PM (#392736) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Amergin It was never my intention to cause confusion between the Paltalk Tavern and the Mudcat thread tavern....My intention was to bring in some of those qualities from here to there....with everyone getting up and performing or just chatting....what I thought a good public house should be...Now in the midst of bickering and all this other bullshit...I say FUCK IT!....that room will never open again. |
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07 Feb 01 - 09:34 PM (#392741) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Dave Wynn S'a pity Amergin....I liked it in there. Don't give a monkey's uncle what you call the room....It was still a nice place to be. Spot (Iarf on Paltalk) |
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07 Feb 01 - 09:43 PM (#392748) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: wysiwyg This thread had no rants in it till now. One might have hoped it could continue rant-free, but obviously heads have not all cooled yet. I hope if there are any more rants they will be posted in the other thread that is already chockfull of them-- and not here. Of course I am always happy to receive really thorough, gloves-off rants in my PMs or mailbox, too. I have been known to positively SQUEAL with delight even at half-good rants. I heard one this AM on the phone that.... well, 'nuff said! ~S~ |
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07 Feb 01 - 09:52 PM (#392754) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: katlaughing What Amerign just posted is not a rant. Leave it go. |
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07 Feb 01 - 10:00 PM (#392763) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Jeri Amergin, I can't figure out why you got that pissed off about people calmly discussing the name of a PalTalk room, but then again I can't figure out why a few discussions have turned into brawls (or is that branles?) recently. Maybe it's just cabin fever - people are soooo touchy! |
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07 Feb 01 - 10:02 PM (#392764) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Metchosin there is nothing humble about your opinion Wysiwig. |
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07 Feb 01 - 10:02 PM (#392765) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Dave (the ancient mariner) He does have a point though... Fuck It is just about what I say too at this point. You can't please everyone, but you sure can hurt a lot of people by having fun. this used to be a nice place, what happened? Hey you guys discuss it without me Ok I am just having fun In my own room and with friends. Bye. |
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07 Feb 01 - 10:05 PM (#392766) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Matt_R Too many Taverns spoil the soup!! Woohoo! |
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07 Feb 01 - 10:18 PM (#392773) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Jeri Is anyone else hearing Twilight Zone music? Alright, I hate all of you because you're all a bunch of mean old poopy heads. Nobody likes me or appreciates me, and I'm gonna go out in the garden and eat WORMS! Well, as soon as the ground unfreezes. Folks, this is SILLY! |
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07 Feb 01 - 10:22 PM (#392776) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Matt_R Jeri, yer cracking me up!!! |
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07 Feb 01 - 10:22 PM (#392777) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: John Routledge I never thought a degree in rocket science would be useful to a Mudcat member GB |
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07 Feb 01 - 10:34 PM (#392787) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Metchosin sorry Wysywyg that was unkind and the only one I have ever been deliberately unkind to has been Gargoyle and you certainly are not of that ilk. My point was that if there is a car manufactured, that is called a Chevrolet and a few years later someone else comes out with a car and they call it a Chevrolet, General Motors is going to take them to court and there is no use arguing about the nice seat belts, innovative air conditioning and low gas consumption of the second Chevrolet, precedence has decided a user name. |
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07 Feb 01 - 11:13 PM (#392812) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Jeri Seriously, I have been trying to figure out what's at the heart of the PalTalk arguing since it started, because it sure as hell doesn't seem like the specifics people are arguing about. I may be wrong, but what I think it is, is ownership. If you start a room with "Mudcat" in the title, it appears like it's supposed to be for the Mudcat community. If the general membership isn't asked before the deed is done, they're upset. If they criticise decisions, the group owner feels like folks don't appreciate their authority or value the work they've done, and they don't understand that people feel left out of the decision. They might feel like people don't even have a right to criticise, because it's their room. Does anyone think any of the arguments would have happened if people had set up rooms called something like "Jeri's Place" or "Acapella Palace?" I don't. I think if I started another room with Mudcat in the title and told people about it after I'd done it, I could expect folks would feel like it SHOULD belong to everyone. It really doesn't do much good to have several rooms where you expect the same bunch of folks, does it? It probably wouldn't hurt to try different set-ups, but if the only difference in rooms is who owns them, and they're intended for the whole group, they serve no purpose other than to show who's most popular and divide Mudcat PalTalkers into factions. I'm not really upset at having PalTalk rooms cropping up all over. I think it's weird, but I'm not upset. They will survive or they won't. I'm disappointed in the unwillingness of people to try to understand one another, and the way folks seem so willing to "lose it" and lash out at each other. |
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07 Feb 01 - 11:15 PM (#392814) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: wysiwyg Would it were so simple, Mets. Would it were. And hey, BTW, get to know me before you decide what's in my heart, OK? I am strongly opinionated, but I think very, very carefully when I say "IMHO." Most times I am quite honest about saying IMNSHO, and in those situations it is generally the case that I have professional experience backing up my opinion. I can appreciate that this does not always make my opinion welcome. But I'm gonna call 'em as I see 'em, like most Mudcatters, I would hope, do. If people choose to make the issue about me when I do that, as has happened, that ain't my thing, it's theirs. My NSHO is that these issues are being addressed from a paradigm based upon political theory and experience, instead of from the paradigm of community building. That paradigm is made operant by things like inclusive outreach, lifting one another up, building sound relationships where there is difference and discord, and sound organizational development. I have seen it before and it is too bad it affects a group of people with such high ideals. At its best, in areas fee of resentments, Mudcat DOES operate from those higher principles and processes. But when there are old, unhealed feelings, it goes to this who's-who, where's-the-power approach, with inflammatory writing and venting in public that is better done in private. It cascades the feelings of upset instead of healing them. These things can be handled differently, but they aren't, because IMHO enough people have not grown weary of the urge to be RIGHT and the need to be APPRECIATED for having done SO MUCH for everyone else. If people would instead focus on giving each other their best gifts freely, without these strings of agreement attached, you would see issues like this resolved smoothly and elegantly. I believe (IMNSHO) that time will come. But (IMHO) it ain't here yet. I think also I am not alone in looking below the surface to try to understand what is really going on here. My sense of it is my own, and I don't mean I assume others agree with that view. But there have been a number of smart people who have asked, in the various discussions about PalTalk, whassup widdiss? What's really causing all this uproar? Something needs to be resolved, that's for sure. ~Susan |
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07 Feb 01 - 11:58 PM (#392848) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: wysiwyg Jeri, I was thinking as I did laundry awhile ago, about what it is that attracts people to things. Often, it IS who is doing the thing or leading it or hosting it... people put their own stamp on it. Maybe the smartest, simplest, most loving thing that could happen would be for the thread titles to reflect this... it IS that way in "real life..." Maybe, for instance, people try Person X's room, and love it, and look forward to returning, because dang it, that Person X, now, they know how to throw a good party. Or make strangers feel welcome. Or help new people find their voice.... whatever gift each admin has. Why not just title a thread, "Kat's Online Mudcat Song Circle" or Dave's Online Open Mike" or (heavnes!) "Matt's Electric Online Jamarama" or whatever personal invitation one cares to issue, and let things be what they simply ARE, which is a whole wealth of interesting opportunities. Sheeshe! Even the tavern threads have had crazy, unique titles that give a clue what kind of fun is afoot. MORE CLUES. Give me MORE CLUES, and just DO what you most long to DO. Do what's in your heart, and then stop apologizing for it! Aside into necessary laughter before I get so serious I implode-- a rave, not a rant: (Oooo!! We have a really BIG PROBLEM here Jeri!!! Too MANY online singing/listening opportunities! How AWFUL!! LOL!!! It is to laugh!!! People would rather argue in threads than get the heck online and SING? Whassup widDAT? I wouldn't be writing now if this damn computer could visit these damn divisive problem rooms!!! I'd be hopping from room to room like a little slut!!! I'd be adminning a hymn sing! I'd..... what would you be doing Jeri??) Better living through electronics. "They" promised! ~S~ |
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08 Feb 01 - 12:35 AM (#392876) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Matt_R ARRRGGG some much boringness on the semantics and psychology of titles! Could you PLEASE stop rambling about stuff that is lto much ike the crummy classes I have to go tomorrow?? _--Matt (strabisma acting up again) |
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08 Feb 01 - 12:48 AM (#392888) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: wysiwyg Hell no! IMNSHO, I speak only for myself of course. ~S~ |
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08 Feb 01 - 01:13 AM (#392903) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Jon Freeman No Jeri, it is not about ownership and I doubt if many of us actually want that - I know I don't. Unfortunately, PalTalk provided something impossible wih Hearme - the ability to control a room well enough to attempt to make it welcoming to others who share our enjoyment of music or my be interested in having a listen and the descisions I took tried to extend that hospitality. The root of all this runs deeper than PalTalk but were exposed by this move - if I had set up a closed room to begin with, none of this would have happened - there never would have been a recurring fight for an open room - no one would have thought that far or cared enough. For the first time, rather than people having to come to Mudcat and be accepted or rejected, by the body of Mudcatters, strangers were just allowed to drop in as they pleased and join in and this has made some people feel vunerable or insecure for a number of reasons; one of which I would suggest is a feeling of loss control or power within the group. There have of course been other reasons like maybe types of music played but I feel the above is the big one and why the topic has kept cropping up. I am begging to feel that the only way to heal this (or at least hide it) is to go for a closed room. It is against everything I believe in terms of folk music but I fear that it is the only way to keep the peace in Mudcat. Jon
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08 Feb 01 - 03:07 AM (#392932) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: nutty When studying for my MA ,one of the set books was THE MICRO-POLITICS OF SCHOOL,which looked at what it described as " the dark side " of establishments and how power was wielded by individuals This is not said to offend anyone but is merely an observation |
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08 Feb 01 - 03:12 AM (#392933) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: nutty For some reason the previous post arrived incomplete.It should read It should have read When studying for my MA ,one of the set books was THE MICRO-POLITICS OF SCHOOL,which looked at what it described as " the dark side " of establishments and how power was wielded by individuals Reading these threads I am (IMHO) being allowed to see " THE MICRO-POLITICS OF MUDCAT " with its resultant "dark side". This is not said to offend anyone but is merely an observation |
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08 Feb 01 - 11:52 AM (#393192) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Homeless OK, guys, at the risk of throwing one more opinion onto the fire I'm gonna add my two bits.
From reading this thread I see that there are two problems here.
I'm not going to comment on the first situation but would like to address the second.
(and now to close the sale) |
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08 Feb 01 - 12:08 PM (#393215) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: catspaw49 Thanks Homeless. When you go back and read Skiff's original post and the ones I made, I'm simply talking about thread names. My suggestion for PalTlak Pub was for a thread, not a room in PalTalk. Skiff, myself, even Max.......we were simply confused by using tavern in a thread name about PalTalk. In PalTalk, you can call your room "Jablonski".....I don't have any input on that one way or another. We were just requesting that "Tavern" in a thread name implied the same old cyber tavern we knew. Sorry. Spaw |
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08 Feb 01 - 12:09 PM (#393218) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Dave (the ancient mariner) Dear Homeless. As you can see from reading these responses. Jon and I (along with many other Mudcatters) have made changes to the room in order to suit the majority of regular contributors to the room. I do not and cannot speak for others, but my own opinion is that I no longer care and will run a Mudcat room as I see fit. If noone enjoys it they will leave and the room will close. I no longer care what the majority of the negative people on this thread think or want. They contribute the least to our room and yet expect Jon and others to bend over backwards to please them. I say again run your own rooms I no longer care WE are having fun in mine/ours; people may come and go as they please; no obligations to come at all. Yours, Aye. Dave, |
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08 Feb 01 - 12:19 PM (#393223) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Jon Freeman Homeless, I have not taken the name of the room part of the thing particularly seriously other than to recognise the possibility (or probability) of confusion which, as you correctly state, is in the thread title. I have a problem with your suggestion though: IMO, if a Paltalk Room is called a Tavern, with the best will in the world, it will be refferred to as such from time to time in thread titles (as well as threads). I think that if it is agreed that this confusion (at least potentially) exists, the simplest solution is to rename the PalTalk room. Such a move sould hurt nobody. Anyway, I feel this is pretty much academic now as (unfortunately) I don't think Amergin has any desire to re-open his room (and I know he was not intending causing any clashes, friction or confusion by using "Tavern"). Jon |
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08 Feb 01 - 12:25 PM (#393229) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: wysiwyg Great. Now we have a series of people willing to run some kinda damn thing, and I think that is FINE, but no way of knowing how to sort whose room and approach are whose from thread titles, especially for newcomers Have you noticed how MANY threads there are today on various matters relating to HearTalk, PalMe, concerts, circles, taverns... I think the sexsexsex thread in the help forum is clearer in its intention. HOW ABOUT A PREFIX FOR THREADS ABOUT LIVE ONLINE SONG SHIT. Please. So we can run a SORT on the page and try to get a grip on what the HECK you folks are doing that you would like to invite us to???? It's enough to lead me to stick with 3D jams every night of the week!!! At my own house! ~Frustrated in PY |
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08 Feb 01 - 12:40 PM (#393245) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: nutty Would there be a problem going back to the original name of PALTALK SONG CIRCLE? There did not appear to be any confusion when we used that |
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08 Feb 01 - 12:48 PM (#393255) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: GUEST I don't understand. What's PalTalk? |
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08 Feb 01 - 12:58 PM (#393265) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Noreen Max- any chance of just scrubbing this thread??? Plaese???? |
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08 Feb 01 - 01:12 PM (#393285) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: McGrath of Harlow Maybe "Mudcat pointless brawl" would be the right heading for this thread.
Clearly, if a thread is headed Tavern, some people are going to assume it's one of the jokey lets pretend threads. If they like those, but don't like live song sessions, they'll waste a couple of seconds finding out. On the other hand, if they don't frequent the Tavern threads, but might like the song sessions, they might miss out.
It makes sense to use another name, though I can see the logic in using the image of a singing boozer to indicate the desired ambiance - but either way it hardly seems worth anyone getting their knickers in a twist.
If anyone wants to go to the trouble of setting up something like this, I think we should be grateful, and not quibble if there are a few teething problems or idiosyncrasies. If you want to do it different, do it different. Pick up the ball and run.
I've always like the term "shebeen" - "pothouse, unlicensed house selling drinks" as my dictionary puts it. As current in Ireland and South Africa, two good musical countries. And I like that word "unlicensed"...
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08 Feb 01 - 01:20 PM (#393298) Subject: RE: BS: Too many Taverns? From: Noreen LOL McGrath- I'll run with shebeen! |