|
26 Feb 01 - 04:28 AM (#406337) Subject: Depleted Uranium From: The Crazy Bird I had some fun on the way to work this morning making this up - if y' can make up better verses, you're welcome t' -- regrds, Crazy Bird
DEPLETED URANIUM |
|
26 Feb 01 - 05:32 AM (#406346) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: BlueJay We will go to Rocky Flats, And put their shoulders to the mats, We can watch the glowing bats, But it's not good enough for me. (To be fair, the only glowing bats in the area are likely the batts of insulation in the homes which spring up closer and closer to that radioactive wasteland as years pass. Probably the bats have either already died, or had the good sense to flee). Thanks, BlueJay |
|
26 Feb 01 - 05:56 AM (#406352) Subject: Lyr Add: DEPLETED URANIUM From: The Crazy Bird Rocky Flats? Waste? I'll have to look it up, must be on a map somewhere (hmmn) BTW, I saw the text didn't look like I wanted on the first posting. Like my good friend says, "When all else fails, read the book, if that don't help -- follow the instructions...
DEPLETED URANIUM
It was good for "Norm" and Powell
It was good in the Iraq desert,
Who cares if it's a poison and
It was good enough in Kosovo
Who cares if it's a waste
|
|
26 Feb 01 - 09:26 AM (#406432) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Amos Excuse me but I understood depleted uranium to be about as radioactive as a watch dial -- its outstanding characteristic being its toughness, hence its use for armor-piercing. Does anyone have some actual numbers on the carcinogenic properties of it? A |
|
26 Feb 01 - 09:53 AM (#406455) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Grab The main problem with DU, as I remember, is inhalation. There's no danger at all carrying DU around in your bare hands, and the radioactivity isn't an issue (it's actually less radioactive than the raw metal, since the highly radioactive isotope has been extracted). But inhaling the dust clogs up your lungs and causes cancer. Thing is, the uranium burns on impact - that's what makes it so effective. So after an impact, you're not left with a porjectile like you are with a traditional lead bullet, you're left with this dust, which if breathed in in quantity is dangerous. How long it continues to be a hazard on the ground, and what happens to it when it's incorporated into the ground, no-one knows yet. Grab. |
|
26 Feb 01 - 09:54 AM (#406457) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Lady McMoo In its solid form the levels of radioactivity are fairly low. As I understand it, and I may well be wrong, the problem arises mainly after detonation has taken place and the remains are dispersed as very fine particulate matter. This matter can be inhaled where these particles lodge in the lungs and lymphatic tissues where the carcinogenic and toxic effects are more problematical. Sorry Amos, don't have numbers to hand. mcmoo |
|
26 Feb 01 - 04:37 PM (#406659) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: rangeroger Sure wouldn't want those tankers to inhale that poisonous stuff after the round had detonated and blown up their tank. Seems to me, war is dangerous to everyone involved. rr |
|
26 Feb 01 - 04:50 PM (#406672) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: mousethief I'd far rather they use depleted uranium bombs than landmines. Bombs generally are used during war, and when the war's over, you stop using them. Landmines blow little kids' legs off decades after the war is over. Alex |
|
26 Feb 01 - 05:10 PM (#406681) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: GUEST,Bruce O. From a chemical physicist who has handled the stuff, be it known that Uranium is dangerous stuff, depleted or not. Berylium is another nasty element to handle. There are a lot of other nastys, but there's usually more publicity on them, so people are more aware of problems of handling them. [Silane and disilane explode on contact with air, concentrated H2O2 explodes on contact with many substances, cyanides are deadly, Hydrazine explodes easily if shocked, H2 and O2 gases, etc. High pressure oxygen let rapidly into a low pressure or vacuum system hits the walls of the chamber like a hammer, and can explode.] |
|
26 Feb 01 - 05:39 PM (#406708) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Lady McMoo Rangeroger...the point is that the dust remains in the local environment of the detonation to potentially poison anyone involved in investigation or cleanup of the wreckage or who might be in the vicinity. mcmoo |
|
26 Feb 01 - 09:49 PM (#406889) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Troll The idea behind using DU as a shell casing is that it is tough and makes excellent shrapnel. The amount that becomes particulate matter fine enough to be inhaled should be very small. If you DO inhale it or carry a piece around in your body or your pocket, you are probably in trouble. But cancer does not normally spring up overnight and the many different types of cancer reported in supposed connection with the bombings in the Balkans suggest a variety of causes instead of one primary cause. In short, it probably wasn't DU. troll |
|
27 Feb 01 - 07:00 AM (#407070) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Grab Problem with cancer (and all diseases) is that it happens anyway, and clusters of cases do happen naturally. Suppose an area had below-average figures for a few years, then suddenly had lots in one year. Is there something causing them, or is it just a high-point in the average? And it's always easier to find someone or something to blame than it is to say that it's just seriously bad luck, so anything around which is slightly out of the ordinary could be picked on as a culprit. OTOH, there may be cases (eg. dioxin pollution) where there genuinely is a danger and it gets passed by. That's where epidemiologists earn their money. Grab. |
|
27 Feb 01 - 01:36 PM (#407289) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: The Crazy Bird Dear Hearts, I have been reading your responses and yes, Virginia, DU is safe -- as long as it is stored away. Some have aske for figures. Well, here is what I have: First: Uranium is not all that rare -- actually it is 50 times more common than silver (got that from the DOE web-site. In the ore: Uranium is 1 to 0.1%. When the uranium is extracted from the ore - it consists of three isotopes: U238 ( 99+%) U235 (.7%) and U234 (very little %). To run nuclear reactors and make bombs, the U must be enriched -- that is, the % of U235 must be increased. When that process is over, we are left with "depleted" uranium, which still contains between 0.2 and 0.4% U235. That is to say it is between 40 and 60 % less radioactive than 'natural' U. The decay of U235 (and 238) releases an alpha particle, that is a helium (2 proton + 2 neutron) kernel The velocity is high, but it doesn't go far. Therefore the greatest danger is when it is inside the body. Inside the body, though the alpha radiation is damaging. Other than that U is a poison, especially to the kidneys. When a DU shell is fired, it burns, on impact it burns even more. Actually, between a quarter and half are turned into U oxide, in an aerosol (=fine) dust. Ir is soluable. Sooooo, how about spreading 600,000 lbs. of radioactive was over Texarcana, TX over a period of a few days and see what they say in LA... regards CrzyBrd |
|
27 Feb 01 - 03:50 PM (#407396) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: GUEST,Blind desert Pete DU is neither hard nor tough. It is used for the cores of AP rounds becouse of its density. It does not burn or explode. when it hits armor energy is released E=MV sq and a fair amount is vaporised just as with a lead cored bullet. Very bad to breathe either. I suspect that DU dust is the worse health risk but lead is no joke |
|
27 Feb 01 - 06:03 PM (#407522) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: GUEST,Bruce O. I was in the lab one day when a coworker dropped a vacuum bottle containing about 2 grams of uranium hydride. When bottle his the floor and broke and the air hit it, it literally exploded with a brilliant yellow/orange flash and a superfine whitish dust rained down. That made for a long cleanup job. I'm really amazed that I'm still alive after a few similar mishaps.
I was in an office of the Chem Dept. one night when I heard a terrific explosion, and went downstairs to find a grad student has opened one stopcock in the wrong order on his vac rack, and his silane hit a little air and exploded. There wasn't much left of his vac rack, and he had lots of glass imbedded in his face. He survived pretty well after a stay in the hospital, but though he was near the end, he never came back to finish his Ph. D. Flourine chemists were always having explosions in their vac racs (which were Nickel, one of the few things that can survive flourine). But nickel would just burst and not send flying particles all over the place. One of the last projects I was on was to run FTS spectra of hydrogen cyanide in a sample cell about 5 ft. long and 9 inches id at a pressure of about 5 atmospheres. That's enough HCN to kill thousands. I don't know how touchy pure H2O2 is. Twice I had one liter supply bottles. I'd heard a lot of horror stories, but I was always very careful with it, and never had an accident.
|
|
16 Mar 10 - 09:10 PM (#2865693) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: ichMael |
|
17 Mar 10 - 12:12 AM (#2865770) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Sawzaw Sounds like it's safer than the lead in Moon Shine. Water can kill you too. Outlaw water. |
|
17 Mar 10 - 10:02 PM (#2866521) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: ichMael This isn't about outlawing or regulating. It's about inflicting genocide with weapons that give a new definition to the word "inhumanity." |
|
17 Mar 10 - 11:27 PM (#2866558) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Ebbie Sawzaw doesn't believe in clicking on a link. |
|
18 Mar 10 - 12:02 AM (#2866567) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Sawzaw Hell no, it might be toxic like contrails. I was working in the lab late one night When my eyes beheld an eerie sight For my vacuum bottle from it's slab began to rise And suddenly to my surprise It did the flash It did the yellow/orange flash The monster flash It was a graveyard smash It did the yellow/orange flash It caught on in a flash It did the flash It did the yellow/orange flash |
|
18 Mar 10 - 08:45 AM (#2866772) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: artbrooks There are many conflicting scientific studies on the effects of DU on the human body. There is no scientific consensus that it causes any direct or transgenerational damage, or that is is entirely innocent of doing so. This lack of conclusive evidence is, IMHO, sufficient justification for not using such munitions if an alternative is available. For example, sabot rounds with a core of tungsten or gold will work just as well. |
|
18 Mar 10 - 12:28 PM (#2866913) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: robomatic GUEST, Blind Desert Pete stated the facts as I understand 'em. Depleted Uranium is dangerous from its actions as a heavy metal, not from its very low radiation level (lower than natural uranium). Guest, Bruce O offered total irrelevancy, which I find very irritating. It's bad enough in a converstion, but to sit down and type out something that has nothing whatever to do with the subject... dunno, it never turned my crank. ichMael offers visual terrorism. Pure scare tactics and probably unrelated to the topic as well. There are tens of thousands of hideous birth defects across the world every year without having to drag radiation into it. How to tell if those barbarisms are real or photo-shopped. They appear to be there to instill horror and do nothing else. Classic disinformation. artbrooks comment is on point and also of the real world. |
|
18 Mar 10 - 12:42 PM (#2866926) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: pdq "There are tens of thousands of hideous birth defects across the world every year without having to drag radiation into it." Yes, the link above is pure propaganda. Nothing new for Iraq, where Saddam (1991) order all babies that died from natural cause be saved and collected. His operatives "salted" the sites of alleged allied bombings with said babies and had women get down on their knees and wail before the cameras of the Western news media. One British reporter went up to one of the alleged bombing victims and found it was still frozen. |
|
18 Mar 10 - 10:07 PM (#2867330) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: ichMael Ah yes, the assuasive powers of rationalization. How sweet the denial--the claim that numbers don't add up and photoshop renders all evidence of the eyes suspect. The problem with DU is the quantity of the stuff that's being scattered around the Middle East. A shell goes off and the cloud of dust disperses, and the uranium will be radioactive for...how many thousands of generations? And this isn't "background radiation present in nature." Depleted though it may be, tons of the stuff is being exploded in places like Fallujah. And those people eat, drink and breathe it day in and day out. Birth deformaties are on the rise in Fallujah since our recent attack on the city, by the way. Look it up. We're not just genociding a people, we're genociding their descendants forever. Anyway, you folks have answered my question about what you're doing to stop the war. Now go back to sleep. How sweet the denial, the assuasive powers of rationalization. |
|
18 Mar 10 - 10:22 PM (#2867334) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: CarolC You're talking to a ghost, robomatic. Maybe he can hear you and maybe not. |
|
18 Mar 10 - 11:17 PM (#2867362) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: CarolC Depleted Uranium Training Video Worth checking out in my opinion This, too |
|
19 Mar 10 - 12:06 AM (#2867379) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Ebbie Those deformed babies evidently are real. It was on PBS last week, along with the information that they - someone- are/is advising people in Fallujah not to have children this year. |
|
19 Mar 10 - 01:04 AM (#2867399) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Sawzaw Cell Phones cause cancer of the brain! Don't they? |
|
19 Mar 10 - 01:07 AM (#2867401) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Ebbie So far as I know, they have not isolated the deformity-causing elements in the vicinity of Fallujah. It may not even be DU. |
|
19 Mar 10 - 01:52 AM (#2867415) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Sawzaw HIV was invented by the government to kill off racial minorities. Wasn't it? "Check out US House Resolution 15090 page 193. The government got $10 million to develop a synthetic biological agent to deplete the immune system . But there is a cure they don't want you to know about! Check uspto.gov (the US Patent and Trademark Organization website) and search for US patent number 5676977." |
|
19 Mar 10 - 02:11 AM (#2867420) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: CarolC I knew someone who died of a brain tumor. The tumor, before it got big enough to kill her, was the size and shape of a cell phone, and it grew inside her skull right where she used to hold her cell phone all the time. Coincidence? Maybe... |
|
19 Mar 10 - 07:48 AM (#2867537) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: GUEST,Moon Shiner Bobert First of all, lets dispell this notion about lead in moonshine... Yeah, back in the old days there were folks who distilled the stuff in all kinds of plumbing devices... Them days is long gone, thankfully... Heck, I know of some purdy well educated folks in Washington, D.C. that make their own shine right there on Capitol Hill that make their own shine in safe distilling aparatuses... Times have changed... Yeah, okay, there may be some pockets of Little Abners who use their grand daddies stills but them folks is dieing out (of lead poisonin'...lol)... As fir DU... If it's so safe then why don't they put it in pill form and sell it at the health food stores??? B~ |
|
19 Mar 10 - 08:42 AM (#2867583) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Keith A of Hertford DU may have been used in Fallujah, but since the insurgents had no armour it was unnecessary to use it. The insurgents used old soviet artillery shells for their explosive content. The propellant in the shells would contain nitroguanadine to reduce flash and barrel wear. It is known to be mutagenic. If the propellant was present with the main charge or discarded widespread contamination is possible. Who knows? |
|
19 Mar 10 - 09:43 PM (#2867933) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: olddude The additional problem as I understand it is the fine dust particles get into the drinking water and food supply also ... |
|
20 Mar 10 - 04:21 PM (#2868253) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Stringsinger Many of the diseases found in children in Iraq are attributed to DU. Also, it contributes to the failing health of returning military people. It's a dangerous chemical. Prove that handling DU doesn't affect your health negatively in a big way. (There's a lot of propaganda out there not based on science). |
|
20 Mar 10 - 04:40 PM (#2868258) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Dorothy Parshall Someone commented about outlawing water: DEVELOPMENT: Bad Water More Deadly Than War http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=50710 http://www.ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=50710 Well, that up there is somehow the link but I still do not understand the blue clicky. If you are interested, figure it out. The srticle is mind boggling. |
|
20 Mar 10 - 06:55 PM (#2868329) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: GUEST,Bobert on the road... All one has to do is trace the number of birth defects in Iraq after Gulf I to see that somethin' is there that is effecting the DNA... B~ |
|
20 Mar 10 - 07:42 PM (#2868348) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: artbrooks Perhaps there is something to the theory that DU is responsible for some or all of this stuff. As of right now, there is no scientific proof one way or the other. I process veterans claims for the DAV - believe me, it is impossible to do anything based upon speculation. The VA began approving compensation claims based on Agent Orange exposure before the Vietnam War ended, and added 3 new conditions last year. This is basically based upon statistics that show Vietnam vets have a small but measurably higher probability of coming down with these conditions, not that every case in every vet is "caused" by AO exposure. The US govt. has paid out many millions on this. If there was any real probability that there was an actual basis for DU claims, they would do the same - the idea that they don't because of the cost or because of some nebulous "admission of guilt" is nonsense. |
|
21 Mar 10 - 06:24 AM (#2868484) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Stu "Landmines blow little kids' legs off decades after the war is over." Yeah, much better to use a weapon that causes massive birth abnormalities and untold suffering for years after. |
|
21 Mar 10 - 06:28 AM (#2868489) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: GUEST There was a VA doctor in Delaware who was treating Gulf I vets who was compiling data on the effects of DU and was fired for doing so... He was told that he was being laid off because he wasn't needed but then replaced by, not one, but two doctors!!! I can't remember his name right off but if ya'll can find the other thread from a few years back on DU I posted all the info there... Bobert on the road |
|
22 Mar 10 - 12:42 PM (#2869329) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: CarolC *Although the Pentagon has issued contradictory statements about the dangers posed by the 320 tons of DU fired in Iraq, it predicts that every future battlefield -- including in the former Yugoslavia, where DU is now being used by US forces -- will be contaminated with DU. Radiation occurs almost everywhere, at low levels known as "background." DU, however, is a highly concentrated form, consisting of the "tailings" left over from the enrichment process that produces nuclear fuel and bombs. When protectively encased, DU's health risks are small. But when DU smashes at twice the speed of sound against metal, it burns and pulverizes, becomes toxic and releases radioactive dust that can soar in the heat column of a flaming tank and waft for miles in the desert wind. As a heavy metal, DU's short-term risk is chemical toxicity. Although DU is only 60 percent as radioactive as natural uranium, its particles can become trapped in the body for long periods, which can result in severe health problems. A visitor witnessed a radiation detector register about 35 times normal background radiation in some battlefield areas in southern Iraq. Old tanks "killed" with DU bullets showed radiation levels 50 times above background. "It's hot forever," says Doug Rokke, a former Pentagon DU expert. "It doesn't go away. It only disperses and blows around in the wind." The military's reluctance to acknowledge DU's dangers reminds Rokke of another war, in Vietnam: "[DU] is the Agent Orange of the 1990s," he says. "Absolutely."* http://www.merip.org/mer/mer211/211_peterson.html I guess this would explain why the US military use radiation detection equipment when they decontaminate equipment that has been contaminated by DU (according to the US military DU training video I posted earlier). |
|
23 Mar 10 - 12:44 AM (#2869750) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Sawzaw "First of all, lets dispell this notion about lead in moonshine..." Holstege Christopher P - Journal of toxicology. Clinical toxicology - 2004 ....Lead was found in measurable quantities in 43 of 48 samples with values ranging from 5 to 599 parts per billion (ppb) with a mean value of 80.7 ppb. A total of 29 of 48 (60%) of samples contained lead concentrations above or equal to the EPA water guideline of 15 ppb. CONCLUSIONS: Many moonshine samples contain detectable concentrations of lead. Extrapolations based on the described moonshine lead content suggest that chronic consumers of moonshine may develop elevated lead concentrations. Physicians should consider lead toxicity in the differential diagnosis when evaluating patients consuming moonshine. Blue Ridge Poison Center, Division of Medical Toxicology, Department of Emergency Medicine, University of Virginia, P.O. Box 800699, Charlottesville, VA 22908-0699, USA. |
|
26 Mar 10 - 01:06 AM (#2872174) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Sawzaw What Chemtrails Really Are by CAROLYN WILLIAMS PALIT What Chemtrails Really Are We are dealing with Star Wars. It involves the combination of chemtrails for creating an atmosphere that will support electromagnetic waves, ground-based, electromagnetic field oscillators called gyrotrons, and ionospheric heaters. Particulates make directed energy weapons work better. It has to do with "steady state" and particle density for plasma beam propagation. They spray barium powders and let it photo-ionize from the ultraviolet light of the sun. Then, they make an aluminum-plasma generated by "zapping" the metal cations that are in the spray with either electromagnetics from HAARP, the gyrotron system on the ground [Ground Wave Emergency Network], or space-based lasers. The barium makes the aluminum-plasma more particulate dense. This means they can make a denser plasma than they normally could from just ionizing the atmosphere or the air. More density [more particles] means that these particles which are colliding into each other will become more charged because there are more of them present to collide. What are they ultimately trying to do up there -- is create charged-particle, plasma beam weapons. Chemtrails are the medium - GWEN pulse radars, the various HAARPs, and space-based lasers are the method, or more simply: Chemtrails are the medium. Directed energy is the method. Spray and Zap. This system appears to be in Russia, Canada, the United States, and all of Europe. Exotic weapons can be mobile, stationary, land-based, aerial, or satellite. It is an offensive and defensive system against EM attacks and missiles. It uses ionospheric particle shells as defense mechanisms [like a bug-zapper shell]* against missiles and EM attacks. That means they spray and then pump up the spray with electromagnetics. When these shells are created using the oscillating, electromagnetic, gyrotron stations, it "excludes" and displaces the background magnetic field. These shells can be layered one above another in a canopy fashion for extra protection from missiles. The chemtrail sprays have various elements in them like carbon which can used to absorb microwaves. Some of these sprays have metal flakes in them that make aerial craft invisible to radar. Spoofer sprays. Sprays like these can be used to create colorful, magnetized plasmas to cloak fighter jets. There are satellite weapons involved. Activists are using meters and are getting readings of microwaves, x-rays, and some other kind of emission that they are not sure of, maybe a low-intensity laser. |
|
26 Mar 10 - 04:05 AM (#2872223) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Keith A of Hertford That's put me off moonshine! |
|
26 Mar 10 - 12:12 PM (#2872534) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Sawzaw What is the advantage of drinking 'Shine? Is it a few bucks cheaper because the taxes have not been paid? Just some Macho excuse for breaking the law. There are several choices of Moonshine available legally at the Liquor store. |
|
26 Mar 10 - 08:12 PM (#2872916) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: The Fooles Troupe "When these shells are created using the oscillating, electromagnetic, gyrotron stations, it "excludes" and displaces the background magnetic field. These shells can be layered one above another in a canopy fashion for extra protection from missiles." Which of course also prevents the launching from Earth of rockets carrying Scientific Payloads. This proves that not only did Man not walk on the Moon, but that all that nonsense about 'Science experiments' up in Space is all just part of a plot to keep 'Scientists' busy. Non Cognito, ergo Idiotium .... :-) |
|
26 Mar 10 - 09:03 PM (#2872940) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Bobert What's the advantage of drinking moonshine??? It berter than anything you can buy at the ABC store... Other than that, probably nuthin'... The 6 parts per billion of lead ain't jack... There more lead in, ahhhhh, mom's apple pie... But I ain't gonna give up that pie either... But shine??? Darned good stuff... Darned good... Think I'll go get me a slug right now... BTW, the fake moonshine in the ABC stores suck... That stuff ain't no more shine than koolaid is shine... B~ |
|
26 Mar 10 - 09:14 PM (#2872950) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: beardedbruce side note: http://www.ttb.gov/public_info/whisky_rebellion.shtml The Whiskey Rebellion by Michael Hoover, Regulations & Rulings Division The Distilled Spirits Tax of 1791 As part of the compromises that led to the adoption of the United States Constitution in 1789, the new Federal government agreed to assume the Revolutionary War debts of the 13 States. In early 1791, to help pay off the resulting national debt, Congress used its new constitutional authority to "lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises" and passed the first nationwide internal revenue tax—an excise tax on distilled spirits.[1] Congress took this action at the urging of the first Secretary of the Treasury, Alexander Hamilton. Unlike tariffs paid on goods imported into the United States, the excise tax on distilled spirits was a direct tax on Americans who produced whiskey and other alcohol spirits. The 1791 excise law set a varying six to 18-cent per gallon tax rate, with smaller distillers often paying more than twice per gallon what larger producers paid. All payments had to be made in cash to the Federal revenue officer appointed for the distiller's county. Large, commercial distillers in the eastern United States generally accepted the new excise tax since they could pass its cost onto their cash-paying customers. However, most smaller producers west of the Appalachian and Allegheny Mountains, then the Nation's frontier, opposed the "whiskey tax." Frustration on the Frontier While eastern farmers could readily transport their grain to market, westerners faced the hard task of moving their crops great distances to the east over the mountains along poor dirt roads. Given this difficulty, many frontier farmers distilled their surplus grain into more easily transportable whiskey. In doing so, their grain became taxable distilled spirits under the 1791 excise law, and western farmers opposed what was, in effect, a tax on their main crop. Usually cash-poor, frontier residents also used whiskey to pay for the goods and services they needed. Naturally, many westerners quickly came to resent the new excise tax on their "currency." Other aspects of the excise law also caused concern. The law required all stills to be registered, and those cited for failure to pay the tax had to appear in distant Federal, rather than local, courts. In Pennsylvania, for example, the only Federal courthouse was in Philadelphia, some 300 miles away from the small frontier settlement of Pittsburgh. In addition, many were upset by what they saw as the National government's inattention to continuing Indian attacks along the frontier and, with Spain's control of New Orleans, westerners were frustrated with the failure of the Government to open the Mississippi River to free American trade. From the beginning, the Federal government had little success in collecting the whiskey tax along the frontier. While many small western distillers simply refused to pay the tax, others took a more violent stand against it. Federal revenue officers and local residents who assisted them bore the brunt of the protester's ire. Tax rebels tarred and feathered several whiskey tax collectors and threatened or beat many who offered them office space or housing. As a result, many western counties never had a resident Federal tax official. President George Washington took notice of the resistance to the whiskey tax and issued a proclamation on September 15, 1792, condemning interference with the "operation of the laws of the United States for raising revenue upon spirits distilled within the same." [2] The Whiskey Rebellion Begins Despite the President's plea and Congressional modification of the excise law, [3] violent opposition to the whiskey tax continued to grow over the next two years. This was especially true in the four counties of southwestern Pennsylvania —Allegheny, Fayette, Washington, and Westmoreland—the location of up to one-fourth of the Nation's stills. In the summer of 1794, U.S. Marshal David Lennon arrived in the area to serve writs ordering those who had refused to pay the whiskey tax to appear in Federal court in Philadelphia. In Washington County, Federal revenue officer John Neville acted as Lennox 's guide. On July 15th, the two men served a writ on William Miller, but, after leaving the paper with the angry frontiersman, they were met by an armed group of his neighbors. A shot was heard as Lennox and Neville rode off, but neither man was injured. Matters came to a head on July 16th when a group of angry farmers, including members of the extended Miller family, marched on Neville's house in the belief that Marshal Lennox was there. Confronted by these armed men, Neville shot and killed Oliver Miller. A shootout ensued, and Neville's slaves joined the fight by firing on the mob from their quarters. The protesters fled, but returned to Neville's house on July 17th with a force of 500 local militiamen. The tax collector, however, had slipped away earlier with the aid of a small squad of Federal soldiers from Fort Pitt who had come to guard his property. A shootout with the soldiers left rebel leader James McFarlane dead, but the greatly outnumbered Federals later surrendered. The rebels then burnt the Neville's house and barn to the ground. Several days later, David Bradford, deputy county attorney for Washington County, took command of the rebels in the county. Anti-whiskey tax violence quickly spread to other counties along the frontier. Rebels burnt the home of Benjamin Wells, the Federal collector for Fayette County, and armed men stole the mail from a post rider leaving Pittsburgh.After finding letters from their opponents, the rebels returned to the town and beat the letter's authors. Anti-tax meetings were held throughout the region in late July. Despite appeals from anti-tax leaders such as newspaper publisher Hugh Henry Brackenridge and businessman and State legislator Albert Gallatin for a peaceful resolution of the crisis, calls went out for the local militia to gather at Braddock's Field near Pittsburgh. President Washington Responds After several thousand armed rebels gathered at Braddock's Field during the last week in July 1794, President Washington met on August 2nd with his Cabinet and the governor of Pennsylvania, Thomas Mifflin, to consider the situation. The President issued a proclamation on August 7th calling on the rebels" to disperse and retire peaceably to their respective abodes."[4] The proclamation also invoked the Militia Act of 1792, which, after Federal court approval, allowed the President to use State militiamen to put down internal rebellions and "cause the laws to be duly executed."[5] The same day, Secretary of War Henry Knox sent a letter to the governors of Maryland, New Jersey, Pennsylvania, and Virginia requesting a total of 12,950 militiamen to put down the rebellion. In a last bid to avoid a confrontation, President Washington sent Attorney General William Bradford, Senator James Ross of Pennsylvania, and Pennsylvania Supreme Court justice Jasper Yeates to meet with rebel leaders. In late August and early September, the three Federal commissioners held talks with a 15-member committee appointed by a rebel assembly representing the four frontier counties of Pennsylvania and Ohio County in Virginia.The rebel committee included Hugh Henry Brackenridge, David Bradford, Albert Gallatin, and other prominent community leaders. Unable to find a peaceful solution to the spreading rebellion, the Federal commissioners returned to Philadelphia on September 24, 1794, where they reported that it was "absolutely necessary that the civil authority should be aided by a military force in order to secure a due execution of the laws."[6] In the mean time, almost 13,000 militiamen had gathered at Carlisle, Penn-sylvania, and prepared to march west to end the rebellion. On September 19, 1794, George Washington became the only sitting U.S. President to personally lead troops in the field when he led the militia on a nearly month-long march west over the Allegheny Mountains to the town of Bedford. On September 25th, the President issued a proclamation declaring that he would not allow "a small portion of the United States [to] dictate to the whole union," and called on all persons "not to abet, aid, or comfort the Insurgents." [7] After leading the troops to Bedford, Washington returned to Philadelphia in late October and placed General Henry "Lighthorse" Lee, a Revolutionary War hero and governor of Virginia, in command. Washington left a letter with Lee with instructions to combat those "who may be found in arms in opposition to the National will and authority" and "to aid and support the civil Magistrate in bringing offenders to justice." [8] Secretary of the Treasury Alexander Hamilton also remained with General Lee and the troops. The End of the Whiskey Rebellion In late October 1794, the Federalized militia entered the western counties of Pennsylvania and sought out the whiskey rebels. By mid-November, the militia had arrested 150 rebels, including 20 prominent leaders of the insurrection. Under the President's authority, General Lee issued a general pardon on November 29th for all those who taken part "in the wicked and unhappy tumults and disturbances lately existing" with the exception of 33 men named in the document. [9] While most of the militia returned home, a regiment occupied the area until the following spring, and organized opposition to the tax evaporated. Of the whiskey rebels who were arrested, many were released due to a lack of evidence. Only a few men were tried and just two were convicted of treason. In July 1795, President Washington pardoned the two convicted men and those still in custody or under indictment. Several rebels sought for arrest fled the area, but most were later pardoned as well. President John Adams pardoned David Bradford, who escaped to Spanish-controlled New Orleans, in March 1799. While violent opposition to the whiskey tax ended, political opposition to the tax continued. Opponents of internal taxes rallied around the candidacy of Thomas Jefferson and helped him defeat President John Adams in the election of 1800. By 1802, Congress repealed the distilled spirits excise tax and all other internal Federal taxes. Until the War of 1812, the Federal government would rely solely on import tariffs for revenue, which quickly grew with the Nation's expanding foreign trade. The Whiskey Rebellion's Legacy Most whiskey rebels returned to their previous lives and occupations, and some rose to prominence in their communities and the Nation. Hugh Henry Brackenridge, already a leading author and founder of the Pittsburgh Gazette, wrote a book on the uprising and would become a Pennsylvania Supreme Court justice.[10] William Findley, who urged peaceful protest of the whiskey tax, also wrote a book on the rebellion, and was elected repeatedly to Congress.[11] Albert Gallatin, a leading Pennsylvania businessman, land developer, and State legislator long opposed internal Federal taxes. Given the opposition, his Fayette county neighbors elected him to the rebel assembly during the Whiskey Rebellion. While in the assembly, however, Gallatin spoke out against an open, violent break with the National government, and he also served on the 15-member committee that met with President Washington's three commissioners in an attempt to end to the crisis peacefully. Gallatin 's name appeared on a list of rebel leaders, but he was never arrested for his role in the Whiskey Rebellion. Elected to Congress after the rebellion, Gallatin worked for a more exact accounting of the Federal government's finances, leading President Thomas Jefferson to appoint him Secretary of the Treasury, a post he also held under President James Madison. In 1802, Gallatin oversaw the ending of all direct, internal Federal taxes, including the distilled spirits tax. During the War of 1812, however, the rising costs of fighting Great Britain forced Gallatin to seek and win Congressional approval of new Federal excise taxes on carriages, sugar refining, and distilled spirits in 1813. In 1814, Gallatin left the Department of the Treasury and helped negotiate the Treaty of Ghent, which ended the War of 1812. He later served as ambassador to France and to Great Britain.After retiring from Government service, he was president of the National City Bank of New York, and he helped found New York University.Gallatin later wrote that his participation in the Whiskey Rebellion was his "only political sin."[12] In the end, the Whiskey Rebellion served as one of the first tests of the new Constitution and the Federal government's authority. It was also the greatest domestic crisis of President Washington's administration. The successful suppression of the Whiskey Rebellion helped to confirm the supremacy of Federal law in the early United States and the right of Congress to levy and collect taxes on a nation-wide basis. |
|
26 Mar 10 - 09:53 PM (#2872967) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Sawzaw I beg to differ Bobert. I have tried both and the legal stuff is better with no hangover. You just get some egotistical macho kick out of breaking the law. Just a basic bad boy attitude that it is more fun if it's illegal. Yeah man I am above the law. Other people have to follow the law but not me, I am special cause I am so smart. Plus you can weasel out of paying you fair share to support those hungry kids. That #2 guy that you voted for said paying taxes is patriotic. That means you are unpatriotic according to him as well as a lawbreaker. The #1 guy you voted for said smokin' dope and snorting coke is immoral so that makes you immoral according to him. I admire him for admitting it, saying it was wrong and advising others not to use drugs. I like his honesty in that regard. I think he is right. Everybody is right sometimes and wrong sometimes. You have to decide what is right and wrong. Anybody that claims they are always right or claiming someone else is wrong all the time or even most of the time is an arrogant asshole in my opinion. Of course they are as entitled to their opinions as I am. |
|
26 Mar 10 - 10:07 PM (#2872971) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Bobert My names John Lee Pettimore Same as my daddy and his daddy before Ya' never saw grand daddy round here Only came a'town 'round twice a year He'd buy hundred pounds yeast and some copper line everyone knew he made moonshine Well, the Revenue man wanted grand daddy bad headed up the holler with everything he had It was before my time But I been told He never came back from Copperhead Road Thanks, bb, for the Whiskey Rebellion link... Some good readin'... Not as good as good shine but good... BTW, they got somethin' they sell in the local ABC store called "Virginia Lightnin'"... I bought a bottle o' it thinkin' that it was gonna be good... It weren't... I poured it out... Like I said, good shine can't be beat by nuthin' in no package store... Any ol' hillbilly could tell ya' that... Heck, I'd love it if the ABC guys would just get up with some good ol' hillbilly moonhiners and put out some legalized moonshine... It's getting harder and harder to find good shine... The youngin' hillbillies just wanta grow and sell pot... What the Hell is this world comin' to, anyway, I asks???? B~ |
|
26 Mar 10 - 11:08 PM (#2872992) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Sawzaw Is this true?: How Stanley Kubrick Faked Apollo Moon Landings (continued) by JAY WEIDNER How Stanley Kubrick Faked Apollo Moon Landings One thing that I am sure is that some part of Stanley Kubrick wanted everyone to know what he had done. And that is why he left behind clues that would explain who did it and how. 8). LAST NOTES Those of you who are familiar with my essay, written in 1999, on 2001: A Space Odyssey called Alchemical Kubrick (see http://www.jayweidner.com/kubrick.htm) already know that I believe that 2001 A Space Odyssey is the greatest esoteric film of all time. For the first time anywhere, in that essay, I show how Kubrick designed the black monolith to be exactly the same size as the screen on which 2001 was projected. The monolith and the screen are the same thing. The monolith is the screen and the screen is the monolith. It is truly one of the greatest discoveries in cinema history. When one realizes that Kubrick also used the Front Screen Projection system - not only for the ape scenes in 2001 - but also the fake the moon landings - we can see a double, or even possibly a triple meaning, inside the idea that the screen is the monolith and the monolith is the screen. If the monolith is that device that enlightens humanity then the Front Screen Projection system, and it's unmistakable fingerprints, is the device that enlightens humanity as to how the Apollo landings were faked. But also we can see that Kubrick used the faking of the Apollo moon missions as an opportunity to make one great film. Because he had negotiated a deal where no one would be given oversight on the film, Kubrick was allowed to make whatever movie he desired. Knowing that no one would object to his anti-Hollywood methods, he created the first abstract feature film, the first intellectual movie and the greatest esoteric work of art in the 20 th century. The President of MGM, at the time in 1968, publicly stated, that he never even saw a rough cut of 2001: A Space Odyssey during the entire four years of production. Does that sound like the manner in which a head of a major studio would act? 2001: A Space Odyssey was one of the most expensive films ever made at that time. Does it even seem remotely possible that no one at MGM even cared to see the continuous progress of the film? No way. I am sure that 2001: A Space Odyssey is the only film in MGM history where the executives who funded the movie never scrutinized the film. Why weren't they more interested in this very expensive endeavor? Because MGM did not fund 2001, the US Government did. Outside of the Front Screen Projection evidence, which I believe nails the fraud of the Apollo landings; there is other circumstantial evidence that forces the conclusion even more in the direction of Kubrick directing the entire Apollo missions. For instance: In the original release of 2001 there were many credits thanking NASA and many of the aerospace companies that worked with NASA on the moon landings. These credits have since been removed from all subsequent releases of 2001. But for those of us old enough to remember, in the original credits, Kubrick thanks a vast array of military and space corporations for their help in the production. As these are the same corporations that supposedly helped NASA get the astronauts to the moon - one has to wonder - what kind of help did they gave Stanley? And for what price? In the film 'Wag the Dog' Dustin Hoffman plays a movie producer hired by the CIA to 'fake an event'. His name in the movie is Stanley. In that movie 'Stanley' mysteriously dies after telling everyone that he wants to take credit for the 'event' that he helped fake. Stanley Kubrick died soon after showing Eyes Wide Shut to the executives at Warner Brothers. It is rumored that they were very upset concerning that film. They wanted Kubrick to re-edit the film but he refused. I personally was in France when Stanley died and I saw, on French television, outtakes from the forthcoming Eyes Wide Shut. I saw outtakes from several scenes that were never in the finished film. Warner Brothers has even come out and admitted that they re-edited the film. To this day they refuse to release a DVD of Stanley Kubrick's cut. Not only is this a direct violation of the agreement that Kubrick had with Warner Brothers but also it means that we will probably never see the un-edited version of this film. One has to wonder what was cut out? And finally: Eyes Wide Shut was released on July 16 th 1999. Stanley Kubrick insisted in his contract that this be the date of the release. July 16 th 1999 is exactly 30 years to the day that Apollo 11 was launched. |
|
27 Mar 10 - 12:37 AM (#2873022) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Sawzaw Everlear Bobert. 195 proof. All you need is about an ounce mixed in something else like OJ. It has an ear of corn on the label. It comes in two different proofs. I heard somebody singing a song about Everclear. I wondered what it was so I looked it up and I bought some. Damn it was good and no hangover. Yeah, I tried others and took them back for a refund. By the way Virginia took in about $185 million from the Alcoholic Beverage Control Board in 2001. BUDGET STRUCTURE Virginia's budget crisis is twice as serious as it might appear from just reading headlines. Most of the shortfall affects only half the budget, because the rest comes from payments for specific services. Our $26 billion FY09 annual approved budget is split between 2 funds. The General Fund is $16 billion and used to pay for basic state government operations. One-third of it goes to pay for K-12 education, followed by state expenditures for medicaid; police, courts, and prisons; higher education; mental health and other human services; and car tax relief (7%). Money to fund these programs comes from sources everyone pays (i.e., individual income taxes, the sales tax, business taxes, lottery and ABC store profits, liquor and cigarette taxes, and court fees). These revenues have been driven down by the sluggish economy. Most of the rest of the budget $20 billion in the Nongeneral Fund comes from and goes to specific areas. Federal dollars must be used for programs such as Medicaid (41%). College tuition payments and hospital charges go to the institutions (23%). The gas tax and vehicle fees are designated for transportation. While the ABC Bureau of Law Enforcement was originally created to prevent the manufacture and distribution of illegal alcohol, its duties have expanded to include investigations concerning underage drinking, illegal drugs, money laundering, tax embezzlement, gambling, counterfeiting and alcohol-related crimes. ABC also conducts administrative hearings pertaining to application objections, franchise cases and violations to determine if charges against an establishment's license should result in dismissal, fines, suspension or revocation. The agency continues to be a leader in spearheading award-winning alcohol education initiatives for people of all ages, developing underage prevention programs and offering compliance training to licensees. As an efficient retail business, ABC currently offers approximately 3,400 alcoholic beverage products through its more than 330 conveniently located stores, Special Order Catalog and Signature Spirits Collection. Store personnel are focused on providing excellent customer service while maintaining a near-perfect record, 97% in 2008, of denying alcohol sales to underage buyers. The agency does not advertise distilled spirits or promote alcohol consumption; however, ABC has contributed more than $1.5 billion to the commonwealth during the past five years. |
|
27 Mar 10 - 08:21 AM (#2873168) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Bobert Yeah, everclear is okay in a pinch but ain't got that smoothness that you get with good shine... As fir hangovers... Geeze, yeah, I guess... Most of the folks I know don't drink shine to get drunk, tho... They take them a shot and go about their business... I like me a shot of shine if I gotta do tree work with my chainsaw... KInda takes the edge off the noise of the saw and yet keep the right amount of edge for being careful with the saw... As fir the ABC stores in Virgina??? The current Governor was elected because he had all these supposed great ideas... Yeah, Bob McDonell told the voters to elect him 'cuase he was gonna fix the road/gridlock problem with some secret plan he had concocked and he was gonna sell off the ABC stores to get revenue for the state... Well, this past week he had to scale back the promise on the roads to no-plan-at-all and junk the idea of selling off the ABC stores because he had forgotten the fact that they are a constant revenue source for the Commonwelth of Virgina... Duhhhhh, Bob... So there goes all his great ideas... Now we're stuck with the guy but... ...at least we have inmate maintained rest stops on the interstates... We got alot of inmate labor here in Page County, too... I had two inmates assigned to me last summer when I did a major landscape contract for the Town of Luray... But one Friday I had a killer band coming in to play our concert series and I told the Twon that I'd like to reward my two inmates by letting 'um hear the band but the Town siad, "no" 'cuase they didn't want to porject an image of folks in striped suits at their concert, regardless of the facdt that on any given day there are stripers all over the country and town doing work... So the Town understood that it wpould present a bad image to have stripers mingling with the population for our guest but Governor Bob thinks it's perfectly okay for folks passing thru seein' stripers there at the rst stops cutting grass and cleaning the bathrooms??? Hey, persoanlly I like the idea of inmate labor... It's a win-win situation for everyone 'cuase the stripers want out for the day... But running the state with prison labor as one's secret plan to restore fiscal responsibiluty to one's state ain't no panacia... Now back to the discussion at hand... B~ |
|
27 Mar 10 - 04:43 PM (#2873485) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Sawzaw Actually no booze really tastes good. Just some is less nasty than others.Now when you drink bootleg booze, you are depriving the state of needed taxes, not just on your part but the bootlegger's part. Yep, Prison labor is good. It used to be all the prisons were farms or did manufacturing or did some chainganging so the inmates had to support themselves to some degree. Oh Brother. Now days they sit around and watch TV while trying to avoid getting shanked with a rolled up, melted Walmart bag. Except down in Arizona where Sheriff Arpaio rules. |
|
27 Mar 10 - 05:17 PM (#2873497) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Ebbie Yep. I think that Jay Weidner is the most persuasive and credible person around. We did go to the moon but we used flying saucer technology to achieve it. I expect great things to be announced VERY soon. Never mind that this 'technology' has been known for more than 40 years and no one has broken silence. Lots more at these sites: http://www.jayweidner.com/Disclosure1.html "Stanley Kubrick cut a deal, I believe, with the US government to fake the Moon landings. I'm not saying they didn't go to the moon, they did go to the Moon. They went to the Moon, they brought back Moon rocks, they put reflectors on the Moon, they did all sorts of stuff. "Believe me, they've been on the Moon a lot of times, but they didn't go the way we were shown in the Moon landings, which were faked by Kubrick. In exchange, Kubrick cut a deal where he would be able to do the kinds of movies he wanted to do. The first of these movies was "2001: A Space Odyssey," of course. He embedded tons of alchemical and esoteric information into the symbols and the script. You can also use "2001" as a springboard to understanding a bigger story that Stanley is telling, which is unveiled very secretly through the rest of his films. Kubrick's bigger story is that this world is ruled by a group of people who are very advanced. Apparently, they have a secret space program, which they're hiding from us. They do not really time-travel, but they have a curious relationship to linear time. They appear to be able to move in and out of it. "This is all according to the films of Kubrick, not my opinion. These people are into deep and dark sexual practices. I'll try to be as nice about it as I can. The films, especially the films that follow "2001," are a long expose of a dark, sex-magic cult that rules the world. "It's all done very subliminally. It's a treasure trove that, like a zip file that keeps pouring out when you open it. At this point, I don't even know how to piece it all together because the amount of information coming out is so astonishing. Lance: Well, it's hidden right there in front of us. I would say his movie "Eyes Wide Shut" is probably the closest to actually coming out and exposing the sexual side of life as a fictional movie, except that he's most likely playing it down quite a bit." http://jayweidner.com/AlchemicalKubrickIIa.html "1) MOTIVATIONS FOR FAKING But why fake the moon landings at all? What would be the motivation? Authors Joseph Farrell and Henry Stevens both have shown us undeniable proof that Nazi scientists had developed advanced flying saucer technology as early as 1943. These authors also show that the US Government brought these same Nazi scientists into this country in order to build these highly advanced flying machines. Furthermore, they believe that the idea that aliens from outer space are invading the Earth is a clever cover story concocted by NASA to hide this technology. "Many sources inside the military industrial complex have related to me that after John Kennedy was shown the flying saucer technology early in his Presidency, he realized that the advances in technology promised by the flying saucers could solve many of the pressing problems of the world. He saw that releasing this exotic technology would point the way towards cheap and environmentally friendly energy among other things. "Soon after seeing the flying saucer technology, JFK made his famous speech asking NASA to land a man on the moon before the decade was out. Many insiders believed that this was a ploy by JFK to get NASA, and the secret government, to release their saucer technologies. Since it was obvious to everyone that standard rocket technology could not get man to the moon and back, JFK may have thought that NASA would be forced to release the knowledge of the technology behind the flying saucers in order to fulfill his vision and get to the moon by the end of the 1960's. JFK's ploy was therefore intended to free this advanced technology from the insidious hands of the shadow government. http://jayweidner.com/AlchemicalKubrickIIa.html |
|
27 Mar 10 - 05:38 PM (#2873507) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: CarolC |
|
27 Mar 10 - 05:40 PM (#2873509) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: CarolC Are people people posting all of this bullshit in an effort to try to hide or bury the legitimate information that has been posted in this thread on the subject of depleted uranium? Or what? |
|
27 Mar 10 - 05:41 PM (#2873510) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: CarolC Oops. |
|
27 Mar 10 - 07:02 PM (#2873554) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Ebbie All the information that I know about depleted uranium has long since been posted. |
|
27 Mar 10 - 08:12 PM (#2873591) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Bobert There is another thread on DU, Carol... I posted alot of stuff on it including the information on the Deleward VA doctor who had compiled alot of statistical data on Gulf I vets who had come in contact with DU.... I have since filed the hard copies of those reports and God only knows where... But it's all in the other thread which I think is from around 2004... I mean, there is alot out there that is being covered up... The VA fired this particular doctor 'cause he was getting to close to the truth... Since then, the government (mostly under Bush and now Obama) have kept this story under wraps... B~ |
|
27 Mar 10 - 08:23 PM (#2873594) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: pdq Up until 1976, lead was common in: gasoline various types of paint electronic equipment solder used on copper water pipes in most houses Those are all I can think of right now, but the chance that anyone has excessive levels of lead in their body from a occasional sip of "moonshine" is, er, "highly speculative". |
|
27 Mar 10 - 11:03 PM (#2873681) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: The Fooles Troupe "Stanley Kubrick cut a deal, I believe, with the US government to fake the Moon landings." Fooled again.... this was a brilliant 'fake documentary' - with the cooperation of many, including his wife, and many high ranking US people, who were 'ambushed' - but who then cooperated for the laughs - when they thought they were originally being asked to do serious serious documentaries on US politics of the time. :-) |
|
28 Mar 10 - 12:18 PM (#2873936) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Sawzaw Food for thought: Prince Philip 'told MI6 to murder Diana and lover The judge told the jury of six women and five men that many had come to believe something "sinister" may lie behind the crash in the Pont de l'Alma tunnel in which Diana, 36, and 42-year-old Dodi were killed with their driver, Henri Paul. He added that Mr al-Fayed also believes MI6 had been commissioned to write a special report on his family to be presented to the Royal Family. The judge said: "It is his belief that a decision was taken at that time to kill Diana and Dodi. He places Prince Philip at the heart of the conspiracy, you will have to listen carefully to the witnesses you hear to see whether there is any evidence to support this assertion." Mr al-Fayed believes that Diana was carrying Dodi's child and that they would have announced their engagement on September 1 that year, the day after the crash, but the Royal Family "could not accept that an Egyptian Muslim could eventually be stepfather to the future King of England". He is convinced that Henri Paul was in the pay of MI6 and French secret services, and the crash was caused by a combination of a collision with a mystery white Fiat Uno and a blinding flash from a stun gun deliberately fired. Two official inquiries concluded that Paul had been drinking and lost control of the car whilst driving too fast. But the inquest heard that Diana had written a note to her ex-butler, Paul Burrell, saying Prince Charles wanted her dead so he could marry their nanny, Tiggy Legge-Bourke. Diana also claimed Ms Legge-Bourke had undergone an abortion. The jury was told of a note written by one of Diana's lawyers, Lord Mishcon, following a meeting at Kensington Palace in October 1995. In the note, Lord Mishcon said: "Her Royal Highness said that she had been informed by reliable sources whom she did not wish to reveal ... that (a) The Queen would be abdicating in April and the Prince of Wales would then assume the throne and (b) efforts would be made if not to get rid of her (be it by some accident in her car such as prepared brake failure or whatever) between now and then." Lord Justice Scott Baker also said Mr al-Fayed had claimed Diana had told him she believed her life was in danger. He said: "Mohamed al-Fayed says during the summer holiday she often told him she would be murdered by the Royal Family. "She would go up in a helicopter and never come down alive." He went on: "It is clear that there are many members of the public who are concerned that something sinister may have caused the collision in which Diana and two others died. "One of the purposes of the inquest is to investigate the incident thoroughly so that the public suspicion is either dispelled or substantiated." He said there would be a "vigorous and searching" investigation of the evidence to find the truth. Lord Justice Scott Baker told the jury: "Most, if not all, of you will remember where you were when you heard about the subsequent death of the Princess of Wales. "None of you would for a moment have thought that over 10 years later you might be in a jury investigating the events related to that tragic August night." The inquest is set to continue for up to six months. |
|
28 Mar 10 - 12:40 PM (#2873957) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: artbrooks 2 1/2-year-old article, available on various conspiracy theorist web sites. |
|
28 Mar 10 - 12:55 PM (#2873968) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: CarolC Yes, I think some people are trying to bury the legitimate information in a pile of BS. |
|
28 Mar 10 - 12:57 PM (#2873970) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Sawzaw Yes but it still has not been disproved. The coverups continue. |
|
28 Mar 10 - 01:34 PM (#2873992) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Ebbie "Yes but it still has not been disproved." Isn't it more to the point that it has not been proved? |
|
28 Mar 10 - 03:24 PM (#2874054) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: gnu Heheheheee... I only read a few posts. My question is, what was The Princess doing with depleted uranium? |
|
28 Mar 10 - 03:45 PM (#2874072) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: artbrooks "An inquest headed by Lord Justice Scott Baker into the deaths of Diana and Dodi began at the Royal Courts of Justice, London on 2 October 2007 and was a continuation of the original inquest that began in 2004.[5] A jury reported its conclusion on 7 April 2008 that Diana had been unlawfully killed by the grossly negligent driving of chauffeur Henri Paul and the paparazzi photographers.[" |
|
28 Mar 10 - 04:01 PM (#2874085) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: pdq It's hard to tell what the Princess Di story has to do with this thread unless depleted uranium now being used in tinfoil hats. |
|
28 Mar 10 - 05:17 PM (#2874149) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Sawzaw Hey, There could be a connection between DU and the Royal hit job on Dianna. We haven't heard about it so it must be a coverup by the MSM. We damned well know that Kerry and Gore really won the elections don't we? |
|
28 Mar 10 - 07:22 PM (#2874253) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: CarolC Yeah, just as I thought. Sawzaw is trying to make it look like those who post legitimate information about DU are somehow similar to the people he wants us to view as wackos by posting reams of that kind of bullshit. So, Sawzaw, do you consider the US military to be tin foil hat nutjobs? Because the training video I posted in which they use radiation detection equipment when they decontaminate equipment that has been contaminated by DU is made and used by the US military. Should we lock them all up? |
|
28 Mar 10 - 07:38 PM (#2874264) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: ichMael "...Eleven years later, DU shell holes in the vehicles along the "Highway of Death" were 1,000 times more radioactive than background radiation...." Highway of Death Good map at the bottom of that page shows DU usage worldwide. |
|
28 Mar 10 - 09:12 PM (#2874295) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: pdq Uranium Medical Research CentreFrom Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia This article is an orphan, as few or no other articles link to it. Please introduce links to this page from related articles; suggestions are available. (November 2006) This article needs references that appear in reliable third-party publications. Primary sources or sources affiliated with the subject are generally not sufficient for a Wikipedia article. Please add more appropriate citations from reliable sources. (January 2009) The Uranium Medical Research Centre (UMRC) is an independent non-profit organization founded in 1997 to provide objective and expert scientific and medical research into the effects of uranium, transuranium elements, and radionuclides produced by the process of radioactive decay and fission. UMRC is also a registered charity in the United States and Canada. The founder of UMRC, Asaf Durakovic, claimed on CNN [1] that: "Inhalation of uranium dust is harmful.... Even in the amount of one atom", casting doubt on the scientific credentials of this organisation. UMRC states at its website that its vision for the world, "is a full awareness of the risks of using nuclear products and by-products AND to contain the still reversible alterations of the earth's biosphere since the advent of nuclear events and the resulting contamination". They go on to state further that: "There needs to be an appreciation of the enormous effects and damage of uranium on the environment and human health. Governments, scientific communities, and the general public need to understand the many forms of contamination and specific effects. Continued abuses of uranium and radioisotopes will only lead to the steady degradation and eventual end of meaningful life on earth." {This group semms to consist of two "scientists" and among their associated effort is a series of lectures done with Al-Jazeera, Without Borders International Program, London, England} {No matter how many times the "1000X radioactivity in shell holes" claim is presented, it always come back to this same questionable source.} |
|
28 Mar 10 - 09:17 PM (#2874297) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: CarolC So are you saying that the US military is in league with Al Jazeera, pdq? Is that what you're saying? Your tactic is transparent to everyone (except, apparently, to you). |
|
28 Mar 10 - 09:21 PM (#2874300) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Bobert Yeah, the same people want to make jokes about the effects of DU... They would have been the one's crackin' the jokes on the Titanic, as well... Some folks just don't get it and never will because their handlers don't want5 them to get it and they are loyal little corpoarte lap-dog that make jokes... Haha... Real funny and the earth is flat as a fritter, ya'll... B~ |
|
28 Mar 10 - 09:52 PM (#2874324) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: artbrooks Is the US military mentioned in pdq's post? Can't see it. BTW, while I take no position on the health aspect of DU, I will note that the physician mentioned in pdq's post is the one previously mentioned by Bobert - who once worked for the VA. |
|
28 Mar 10 - 09:59 PM (#2874330) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Bobert He was fired, a-b, from a Deleware VA hospital because he was zeroin' in on enough statistical dtaa to prove that DU had serious health implications on the vets... The VA said it was because they were cutting back but shortly after hired 2 doctors to take his place... I'll find my research on this someday.... BTW, I don't think that pdq had linked this guy but I might have missed it but I really don't recall seein' the stuff that I came up with several years ago... But it's archived here in Mudcat... b~ |
|
28 Mar 10 - 10:04 PM (#2874331) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: artbrooks It's all on the web, Bobert - he worked in Nuclear Medicine at VA Wilmington, DE (I think)...google "Asaf Durakovic", the name pdq's post mentioned. |
|
29 Mar 10 - 12:44 AM (#2874385) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: CarolC Yes, you're right, artbrooks. I confused pdq with Sawsaw. What pdq is doing is somewhat less obvious (but still highly questionable). They're both ignoring the legitimate evidence and trying to prove that there is no credible evidence by posting material that is either not credible or that they attack with ad hominem arguments (like pdq is doing with al Jazeera). We don't need any of the stuff they post to know that there is credible evidence that DU causes elevated radiation levels that can cause a lot of problems for people. There is plenty of credible evidence for this. |
|
29 Mar 10 - 01:03 AM (#2874388) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: artbrooks Well, the evidence is very mixed - but I'm not about to argue that it's harmless. |
|
29 Mar 10 - 01:36 AM (#2874402) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: pdq I posted the source of ichMael's contention that DU-produced holes in tanks on the "Highway of Death" in Iraq were 1000X more radioactive than the background radiation. As a former chem major (for a while) I will tell you that it is absolutely absurd for a "scientist" like Durakovic to claim that DU, with approximately "background radiation level" when it was stored and fired as a projectile, become 1000X more radioactive upon hitting the side of Russian-made tank. There is no scientific basis for such a claim. |
|
29 Mar 10 - 01:44 AM (#2874406) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: CarolC But there is basis for the claim that the US military regards it as a threat of excess radiation exposure. They treat it as such in the way they decontaminate their equipment. |
|
29 Mar 10 - 07:12 AM (#2874542) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Bobert The conslusive evidence, to date, has been short circuted, Carol... Not to sound like a Tea Party conspracy nut but the government knows more about DU then they want you and me to know... Heck, they wouldn't have fired the VA doctor if they thought the stuff was good fir ya'... Someone down the road will get the carpet lifted high enough to see what the government knows but if yer looking for the hard science now, I don't think it is there yet... Kinda one of the Agent Orange things... B~ |
|
29 Mar 10 - 10:16 AM (#2874653) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: artbrooks CarolC, that video is pretty old. The uniforms are outdated, as is some of the terminology. It was probably produced shortly after Gulf War I, when the widespread use of DU munitions was new, and they may have been (as the saying goes) erring on the side of caution. Whether or not that still represents current methodologies for equipment decontamination is impossible to judge. |
|
29 Mar 10 - 02:42 PM (#2874883) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Sawzaw Look Dammit. No one in The MSM or the government has said there is no connection between DU and the Royal hit job on Dianna so they must be hiding something. |
|
29 Mar 10 - 03:02 PM (#2874903) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: CarolC Son-sequitur and straw man, Sawzaw. You may think you can discredit an argument using those tactics, but you really can't. The reason you have to resort to the use of such illogical tactics is because it's the best you've got. If you had any real arguments, would use those instead of trying to distract people with verbal sleight of hand. By the way, is your screen name supposed to be in reference to those reciprocating saws called, "sawzalls"? I used to know someone who called them "sawzaws". |
|
29 Mar 10 - 03:13 PM (#2874911) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: mikesamwild Anyone know The Defeated Ukrainian ? I blame Putin |
|
29 Mar 10 - 03:21 PM (#2874919) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: CarolC artbrooks, this page from the current army training website shows that they're still using radiation detection devices in the decontamination of equipment that has been contaminated by DU... https://rdl.train.army.mil/soldierPortal/atia/adlsc/view/public/22662-1/FM/3-11.5/appe.htm Here's some of what they have to say on the subject (note, they say it's not an "immediate" hazard, but clearly, it's a health hazard that can cause a lot of problems over time, and also note that civilians who live in areas with a lot of DU contamination cannot avoid contact)... (1) DU can present a number of hazards, depending on its physical (solid versus particulate) and chemical forms. These hazards can be grouped into three categories: radiological, toxicological, and pyrophoric. (a) Radiological. · DU presents a radiological hazard from external and internal radiation dose standpoints. Externally, DU and its decay products emit beta and gamma radiations that can serve as sources of external radiation for personnel. Contact gamma dose rates from bare DU can be 15 millirems per hour (mrem/hr), while skin contact dose rate due to beta radiation from bare DU is approximately 238 mrem/hr. · Internally, insoluble DU oxide can be inhaled and deposited into the lungs, where irradiation by alpha particles is the primary concern. In general, aircraft counterbalances and DU penetrators used in munitions are typically covered to prevent corrosion (oxidation). The primary groups at risk for external exposure are munitions handlers and aircraft maintenance personnel. The primary groups at risk for internal exposure are personnel involved with DU contamination that can potentially become airborne and subsequently inhaled. (b) Toxicological. Soluble forms of DU can present a significant toxicological hazard. Like any heavy metal, DU can be ingested or inhaled into the body and, subsequently, enter the blood stream. It may be toxic to the kidneys and other organs. (c) Pyrophoric. The pyrophoric hazard presented by DU is normally associated with fine particulates of metallic DU generated during fabrication processes. Particulate oxides of DU are generated as a result of normal corrosive processes on exposed DU, fires, and penetrator impact with armor, but are not pyrophoric. (2) Military and civilian vehicles may become contaminated with DU either as a result of direct penetrator strikes, by traveling through a DU-contaminated environment, or as a result of an accident or fire. Penetrators striking an armored target essentially burn their way through the armor. As a result, DU oxide particles are formed and can be deposited in or on the vehicle or short distances downwind (typically less than 100 yards). The metal surrounding the DU penetration hole is generally the area of highest contamination. The amount of DU contamination resulting from a crash of an aircraft having DU counterbalances is dependent on its physical integrity. (3) Environmental media (and water) can be a receptor of contamination from other sources (i.e., weathering of intact DU components, DU released from penetrator strikes or fire). The level of this contamination is minor in comparison to that encountered on vehicle surfaces, exposed counterbalance surfaces, etc. The one exception is hard-target range operations involving DU munitions that are left exposed to oxidize and further add to the soil contamination. (4) Ingestion or inhalation of DU from any form of contaminated media is the primary hazard of concern. Taking the necessary precautions to minimize these risks requires appropriate PPE (i.e., clothing and detection equipment) and procedures. Required procedures and equipment will vary depending on the type of work to be accomplished. Some common sense rules to apply when dealing with radioactive material are— (a) Evacuate or cordon off the area and avoid it when radioactive contamination is present. If you must work in a contaminated environment, wear protective equipment. Also, health monitoring or exposure control operations will be required. (b) Ensure that your protective equipment is operational and appropriate for the task to be accomplished. (c) Do not eat, drink, or smoke in a potentially contaminated area. (d) Roll down your sleeves, wear gloves, and cover any exposed skin areas. This provides protection from alpha and beta radiation in the form of particles. Pay particular attention to protecting open cuts or wounds, and wear a protective mask. Depending on temperature, protective clothing availability, DU contamination levels, and tasks to be performed, wear your overgarment or coveralls or roll down your sleeves and blouse your trousers as directed by CBRN or medical personnel. Dust off your uniform after leaving a vehicle and before removing your protective mask. Always exercise standard field hygiene, including washing your hands and face. (e) Limit external hazards by wiping or washing exposed areas as soon as possible. (f) Minimize time, maximize distance, and maximize shielding to keep any doses received as low as possible. (g) Assume a DU contamination zone at 50 meters around actively burning fires involving any armored combat vehicles or ammunition supply vehicles. b. DU contamination may include DU oxides (dust), contaminated shrapnel, munitions components, or armor components. DU primarily emits alpha particles; however, beta, gamma, and X-ray ionizing radiation are also emitted. DU contamination can be inhaled, ingested, or injected. DU contamination does not pose an immediate health risk. Damaged or destroyed enemy or friendly armor vehicles may be DU-contaminated. Unless an individual has a valid reason to enter such vehicles, he should stay away from them. Consequently, contamination should be removed from personnel or vehicle surfaces when directed by the unit commander based on METT-TC considerations... ... d. General decontamination procedures are as follows: · Use a radiac* meter to determine if DU contamination is present. (A radiac meter is a radiation detection device.) |
|
29 Mar 10 - 03:29 PM (#2874926) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: artbrooks Thank you |
|
29 Mar 10 - 04:15 PM (#2874979) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Sawzaw Let me know when there are convictions. |
|
29 Mar 10 - 07:02 PM (#2875123) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: CarolC Don't expect any convictions. We're the world's only super power. We do whatever we want, even if it violates international laws to which we are signatories. |
|
29 Mar 10 - 08:02 PM (#2875168) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Bobert The invasion of Iraq is Exhibit A... |
|
30 Mar 10 - 12:29 PM (#2875698) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Sawzaw The US and NATO military used DU penetrator rounds in the 1991 Gulf War, the Bosnia war, bombing of Serbia, and the 2003 invasion of Iraq. It is thought that between 17 and 20 countries have weapons incorporating depleted uranium in their arsenals. They include the U.S., the UK, France, Russia, China, Turkey, Israel, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Egypt, Kuwait, Pakistan, Thailand, Iraq and Taiwan. |
|
30 Mar 10 - 05:39 PM (#2875972) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Bobert ...many made in the USA... |
|
30 Mar 10 - 08:27 PM (#2876093) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: CarolC The United States has used more of them on the battle field (and in civilian areas) than any other country. |
|
30 Mar 10 - 08:33 PM (#2876100) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: The Fooles Troupe "We're the world's only super power." Look out! here comes China - meep meep ZOOOM! |
|
30 Mar 10 - 08:58 PM (#2876117) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Sawzaw A remarkably clean, concise and to the point post Bobert. Good job. A guide to DU manufacturers. Three U.S. companies produce large calibre DU tank rounds: Alliant Techsystems (120mm), Day & Zimmermann (120mm) and the former Primex Technologies, now General Dynamics Ordnance and Tactical Systems (105mm and 120mm). Other companies located in China, France, India, Serbia, the former Soviet Union, and Pakistan also produce large calibre tank rounds. Alliant Techsystems, the largest ammunition manufacturers in the US also produce small calibre rounds (25mm, 30mm) for guns on U.S. aircraft and fighting vehicles. The UK-based firm BAE Systems produced 120mm shells for the UK armed forces. Nexter (formerly known as GIAT Industries or Groupement des Industries de l'Armée de Terre, Army's Industries Group) is a French Government-owned corporation weapon manufacturer. In 1995, 60,000 penetrators for the 120 mm munition APFSDS-T OFL 120 F2, used by the Leclerc tank were made by Giat Industries of Salbris. The 105 mm munition APFSDS-T OFL 105 E2, used by the F1 canon of the AMX-30 tank of Giat Industries also contains DU. Pakistan Ordnance Factories is the biggest defence industrial complex in Pakistan meeting almost one hundred percent of the ordnance needs of its armed forces, mainly the army. In 2001 Pakistan's NCD developed a 125mm armour-piercing fin-stabilized discarding sabot (APFSDS) projectile with a depleted uranium (DU) long-rod penetrator. It was made for use with Chinese-made T-80UD tanks. The Pakistani defence industry works closely with China, sharing research and development - this is largely done as a strategic counter-balance to Russia's close links with India's arms industry. Depleted uranium is also used in numerous commercial applications requiring a very dense material. These include: ballast and counterweights; balancing control devices on aircraft; balancing and vibration damping on aircraft; machinery ballast and counterweights; gyrorotors and other electromechanical counterweights; shielding for medicine and industry; shipping container shielding for radiopharmaceuticals; chemical catalyst; pigments; and, x-ray tubes, missiles and racing sailboat keels and as a material used in hospitals for shielding x-rays or gamma radiation from equipment used for radiation therapy. The Homer Laughlin Company of West Virginia used uranium and depleted uranium glase on Fiesta dinnerware. 1936-1943 Fiesta red was produced using natural uranium. 1959-1969 Fiesta red Fiesta Ware was produced using depleted uranium. 1969 - 1973 Fiesta red Fiesta Ironstone was produced using depleted uranium. Users of Household Items Source Term * Ceramic dinnerware: the glaze of orange-colored ceramic dinnerware may contain up to 20% of uranium by weight [Sheets1995]. * Ceramic tiles: * Uranium glass: contains approx. 1% of uranium * Enamel jewelry: concentrations of depleted uranium of 10% were found in yellow enamel powder currently produced in France (see details). Exposure of Users of Household Items * External radiation Gamma and beta radiation exposure measured at 1 cm from the surface of natural uranium-glazed ceramic dinnerware samples ranged between 3.1 and 9.2 mR/h (19 - 56 µSv/h) [Sheets1995]. According to assumptions made by U.S. NRC, normal use of such items could result in an effective dose equivalent of about 0.07 mSv/yr (7 mrem/yr) from external exposures [NUREG-1717]. The dose rate at the surface of enamel jewelry pieces containing depleted uranium was measured at 6.7 µSv/h. Assuming that 1% of the skin would be irradiated, this would cause a skin dose of 0.587 mSv/a for continuous exposure. With ICRP60's tissue weighting factor for skin of 0.01, this results in a committed effective dose of 5.87 µSv/a. (The tissue weighting factor is quite low, since ICRP uses US data for adults showing that skin cancer can be treated and only 0.2% of the cases are lethal.) * Ingestion 20% of 15 uranium-glazed ceramic dinnerware samples tested contained easily removable surface compounds of natural uranium . Vinegar leached up to 30 µg/l of uranium from uranium glass. From a uranium-glazed plate, vinegar leached 31,800 µg/l of uranium, and nitric acid even leached 304,000 µg/l of uranium. Based on these leaching factors and certain consumption rates assumed by the U.S. NRC, an individual could ingest approximately 0.21 g of uranium during 1 year. Thus, given an ingestion dose factor of 1.9 mSv/g adopted by NRC, this would correspond to an annual effective dose equivalent of about 0.4 mSv (40 mrem) from ingestion of uranium leached from glazed ceramic tableware. The annual limit on intake based on chemical toxicity would be exceeded around 10-fold. |
|
31 Mar 10 - 12:18 AM (#2876195) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: CarolC You take the manufacturers' word over the word of the military people who say it poses a serious health hazard? I guess you're the wacko with the tin foil hat then. The manufacturers have an incentive mislead people about the risks. The military only has the incentive to keep its people as safe as possible. Given these two, it is perfectly safe to say that the military is more believable in this particular context (especially since this information was for internal use). |
|
31 Mar 10 - 05:48 AM (#2876311) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Teribus So where are the instances of these DU related birth defects in the areas adjacent to live firing areas in the countries that manufacture these munitions? The South of Iraq - What major battles were fought in that area during the 1991 Gulf War commonly known as "Desert Storm", I do not believe that there were any. As someone else stated DU munitions are used against armour. In the southern parts of Iraq the birth defects noted and attributed to US use of DU munitions. Where is all the scientific work that has been done to discount and eliminate as the cause of these defects the contamination caused by Chemical and Biological weapons used during the Iran/Iraq War and in the suppression of the Shia rebellion in 1991? Where is the scientific work that has been done to discount and eliminate as the cause of these defects the contamination caused by Saddam Hussein's deliberate poisoning of water sources and marsh areas? Where is all the scientific work that has been done to discount and eliminate as the cause of these defects the ground contamination caused by the petrochemical industry in the area? Fallujah, do those who rush to blame the situation solely on the activiites of US Marines also deny that Chemical and Biological weapons were manufactured and stored in the city and surrounding area. 100 Up |
|
31 Mar 10 - 05:19 PM (#2876833) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Ebbie T, you are seriously jumping the gun. So far as I know, it has only been reported recently. Investigation and analysis will follow. Besides, to my mind, the issue is the birth defects- whether they stem from Saddam or from the US and its allies is not really terribly important. At the moment. If they discover that it is caused by something the US is doing now and in the recent past, that then will be another issue. |
|
31 Mar 10 - 11:09 PM (#2877060) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Donuel The pictures of the Iraqi dead and deformed babies have been around for 5 years. The other place the US used large quantities of DU was Bosnia so we might expect similar deformities there despite the fact it is not as dusty as Iraq. Note Rocky Flats is associated with the refining and storage of PU not DU. Heavy metals are generally poison. Lead isn't that radioactive either but it sure does damage or even kill people. DU is a really heavy metal. |
|
01 Apr 10 - 01:07 AM (#2877106) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Sawzaw "You take the manufacturers' word over the word of the military people who say it poses a serious health hazard?" I'm not taking anybody's word. Where is the holocaust from people eating food out of DU glazed ceramic products for 50 years? |
|
01 Apr 10 - 08:58 AM (#2877317) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: CarolC Now you're just making yourself look bad, Sawzaw. You haven't even bothered to read what the Army has to say on the subject, I see. Ceramic glazes don't pose a health hazard because the DU has to be in fine particulate form in order to be a hazard. Ceramic glaze does not fit that criteria. |
|
01 Apr 10 - 09:25 AM (#2877336) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: Sawzaw Yes I read it and it did not compel me to join in another conspiracy lynch mob. Now here is some reading for you: "Vinegar leached up to 30 µg/l of uranium from uranium glass. From a uranium-glazed plate, vinegar leached 31,800 µg/l of uranium, and nitric acid even leached 304,000 µg/l of uranium. Based on these leaching factors and certain consumption rates assumed by the U.S. NRC, an individual could ingest approximately 0.21 g of uranium during 1 year. Thus, given an ingestion dose factor of 1.9 mSv/g adopted by NRC, this would correspond to an annual effective dose equivalent of about 0.4 mSv (40 mrem) from ingestion of uranium leached from glazed ceramic tableware. The annual limit on intake based on chemical toxicity would be exceeded around 10-fold." |
|
01 Apr 10 - 09:52 AM (#2877353) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: MMario and certain consumption rates assumed by the U.S. NRC I wonder what assumptions these were? I also wonder how long it took vinager to leach the uranium - And how motile it would be in a discontinous liquid.... because unless people will be licking their plates I doubt they will ingest much acid that has sat on the glaze long enough to leach uranium. |
|
01 Apr 10 - 10:00 AM (#2877360) Subject: RE: Depleted Uranium From: CarolC Well, I guess if someone wants to characterize the Army as "a conspiracy lynch mob", that's their choice. |