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03 Mar 01 - 02:03 PM (#410314) Subject: foot and mouth From: Megan L Once again this horrible disease is sweeping through the UK, comming of the boat today we had to drive over disinfectant soaked carpets and several local events have been cancelled. Has this affected any catters? remember I said foot and mouth not foot in mouth the cases of the latter are far to common. |
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03 Mar 01 - 02:12 PM (#410321) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: SINSULL i POSTED YESTERDAY THAT dOLLY THE CLONED SHEEP HAS BEEN DIAGNOSED AND PUT IN ISOLATION. iRONIC - tHE MOST TECHNICALLY ADVANCED ANIMAL ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH FALLS VICTIM TO AN ANCIENT MALADY.
Mother Nature is thumbing her nose at us. |
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03 Mar 01 - 02:15 PM (#410323) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: nutty There is another posting in the forum to say that Crediton Folk Festival in Devon has been cancelled but as yet I have not heard of any others - although the desease is still spreading - so only time will tell I am not affected as I live at the seaside but have been talking to all kinds of people who have come to exercise their dogs on the sands, as all the country walkways are closed |
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03 Mar 01 - 02:16 PM (#410324) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Greyeyes Many sports events have been cancelled/postponed, including a major rugby international, which, if it is not rescheduled, (which it is intended to be at present) will cost the Welsh Rugby Union millions. But that's really trivia compared to the numerous livelihoods at stake. |
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03 Mar 01 - 03:08 PM (#410349) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Dave (the ancient mariner) The farm I worked on in the 60's was protected from a Foot and Mouth outbreak, by spraying antiseptic on a patch of straw and hay laid on every approach. With each track and road covered this way, no vehicle could come on or off the farm without cleaning the tires. We processed and delivered fresh milk every day, and had to be very carefull. The vet who looked after the herd, told us that the disease was probably carried by birds, such as starlings and pigeons. Terrible thing to happen, I saw beautiful horses and cattle destroyed by the thousands. Pray for a quick end or cure to this disease. Yours, Aye. Dave |
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03 Mar 01 - 03:11 PM (#410354) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Hawker Hi, I live roughly 20 miles from Willie Cleave's farm in Devon and roughly the same in the other direction from the slaughter house at South Petherwin in Cornwall. The effect is devastating, this is a very rural area and most peoples livelihoods have been affected in some way. The local supermarket was really quiet today, though I saw no signs of the food shortages they were talking about. My husband is a plumber, so you would think that it wouldn't affect him, but most of his work is on local farms, and nobody wants him to visit incase he brings it onto their farm, consequently we are suffering. I was supposed to be making my 1st CD on Friday last - and was really looking forward to it... sadly I felt duty bound to cancel, as I was recording with another lady singer from Somerset, whose husband is a cattle farmer. Yes we have been affected, yes it is awful, yes, it shouldn't have happened! If you can at all, may I implore you not to walk your dogs in public, nor to travel great distances, if people could adhere to this for 2 weeks (the incubation period) we hopefully would be able to contain it! - Having said that, and even though there is a ban on the movement of cattle, I saw a local farmer walk his sheep along the road to another field on Tuesday - how can we hope to contain it with idiots like that? Sadly yours, Lucy |
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03 Mar 01 - 03:25 PM (#410362) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Sorcha Crufts Dog Show has been "postponed", which probably means cancelled. I hadn't planned to go, of course, but I was going to watch on TV. |
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03 Mar 01 - 03:41 PM (#410374) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Amergin Ok, forgive my ignorance....but what is foot and mouth? I have heard of the famous foot in mouth disease....and I know what that is, but not this.... |
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03 Mar 01 - 04:01 PM (#410385) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Metchosin Ah my old alma mater...anyways this might clarify it somewhat Amergin. |
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03 Mar 01 - 04:06 PM (#410390) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Metchosin now maybe someone can clarify for me why, if horses are not affected by the disease, they would have been destroyed, as well as cloven hoofed animals. |
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03 Mar 01 - 04:14 PM (#410395) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Sorcha I thought it was a form of anthrax.......I'd guess they are destroying anything that might move this disease to a new area......but I don't know, of course. The treated straw above sounds a very good idea.....wonder why more places aren't using it? |
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03 Mar 01 - 04:18 PM (#410399) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Metchosin that would seem reasonable Sorcha, but why not destroy dogs, cats, pigeons and humans then? Horses can be contained and quarantined for a period of time. |
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03 Mar 01 - 04:23 PM (#410404) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Metchosin Sorcha, anthrax is spread by bacteria while hoof and mouth is viral disease. |
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03 Mar 01 - 04:24 PM (#410407) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Amergin Thanks Met...jesus. |
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03 Mar 01 - 04:32 PM (#410416) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Hawker Here in Cornwall, most farms and small holdings have got straw 'mats' across their gateways. As for killing everything that moves, well I guess it is just not workable really.... where do we stop, kill the people to? I am really maddened by the fact that animals do survive this virus, it is not a killer, though it is unpleasant - so why not let them just get better? they would then be immune. Also the cattle can be vaccinated against it, but it is not permitted - as to vaccinate british livestock is like admitting that the virus is active in the UK - and that would lead us in the UK to lose certain trade privledges in Europe......Is it me or did the UK government recently have a drive on us all vaccinating our kids against measles ..... so if there was an epidemic of measles are they going to kill our kids? I think not, its maybe not a good example, but it sure as hell seems pretty unfair to me that all this livestock is being slaughtered....... Off my soap box now, Still sad, Lucy |
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03 Mar 01 - 04:34 PM (#410418) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Jon Freeman Metchosin, I haven't read it all but there may be something here that offers an explaination. Jon |
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03 Mar 01 - 04:37 PM (#410422) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: katlaughing I agree, Lucy, it doesn't seem right, esp. in view of the ban on vaccinations. This was in our paper, today: In Ireland, Dublin's St. Patrick's Day festivities on March 17, which were expected to draw half a million people, have been called off following a plea from the government. Seems the economic effects could be far-reaching. kat |
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03 Mar 01 - 04:42 PM (#410424) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Metchosin Still can't find the implication for horses at either my or your links John. I don't think they innoculate cattle in Canada either, but I could be wrong. Seems dumb if they don't, I think I recall that there was a scare about it in the wild buffalo (bison) herds here not to many years ago. |
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03 Mar 01 - 04:52 PM (#410429) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: nutty As I understand it .... only cloven hooved animals get the disease(sheep, cows , goats) but other animals - such as horses - can carry the disease which, because it is a virus, travels at an amazing speed and can even be airborne. |
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03 Mar 01 - 04:55 PM (#410430) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Metchosin Treated straw might help a bit, but as an old ex Ag Canada employee with a bit of experience in quarantines, to be really safe in that regard, all tires, tracks and boots would have to be scrubbed and disinfected and if it can be spread by flocks of pigeons and starlings feeding on contaminated scattered grain and hay seeds in manure piles etc. it does seem to be a very daunting task indeed. You and your neighbours have my deepest sympathy Lucy. |
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03 Mar 01 - 05:14 PM (#410440) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: McGrath of Harlow here is a song about it, from the early years of the last century.
There've even been talk of wiping out hedgehogs, because they walk around and don't wipe theirr paws when they stray onto another farm. Meanwhile the wind carries the spores around anyway, but they can't do much about it.
The problem as I understand it is that while it's not in itself a desperately serious disease - animals don't die of normally - they've worked out that slaughtering is cheaper than looking after them, and not having a slaughter policy would bugger up the process of exporting and importing meat and cattle. Which may make economic sense, but it's crazy - the English export beef to France, and the French export it to England and so forth. If we all ate the food produced on the farm up the road, this whole thing wouldn't happen, and we wouldn't be wasting all that energy. |
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03 Mar 01 - 05:53 PM (#410459) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: oggie It affects cloven-footed animals but can be carried by almost anything including us on our clothes etc which is why walkers are being discouraged. Like the Flu virus it mutates so vaccinations do not stay current, needs revaccinating every 3 months or so and then it may not work on a new strain. A major worry is that it could mutate into a strain which jumps species (scrapie in sheep became BSE in ruminants which became New Variant CJD in humans). It is not just trade in Europe that is affected but trade with ALL countries. Even though it does not (as far as we know) affect humans would you knowingly eat a piece of meat from an animal which had the disease? Not sure I would. What this does show is just how inter-linked the modern food supply chain is. If you supply meat to a major retailler you are told which abbatoir to use so, as in this case, animals travel 400 miles to slaughter and so the disease can be spread. So far all the outbreaks can show a causal chain back to the first outbreak in Northumberland. All the best Steve |
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03 Mar 01 - 06:21 PM (#410467) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Jon Freeman oggie, the information in the links Mechosin and I gave indicate that humans can get this disease although it is extremely rare. Hawker, it must be awful where you are. As far as I know, Norfolk is OK but I would imagine the farmers are still very worried. I have only recently moved from North Wales where I heard that there was one reported case in Gaerwen, Anglsey but as far as I can make out, it was an isolated case in an abatoir from a farm elsewhere. Jon |
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03 Mar 01 - 06:28 PM (#410469) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Cobble Sorcha Crufts is to be rescheduled some time in May or June to be anounced at a later date. I was to have shown my Skye Terriers on Thursday and maned the Skye stand in the 'Discover Dogs" exhibition on Sunday. The Kennel Club statement said although they had not been forced to postpone by MAFF they felt they should, to prevent the virus from spreading via cars. As many dog exhibiters live in rural areas I think they have the right idea. Just hope they don't reschedule when I am on holiday! Our judge was to have been Walter Goodman who comes from Florida, he may be pleased if he gets to come to UK when the weather gets warmer!! My thoughts are with all the farmers who are affected by this awful situation. Mrs C. |
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03 Mar 01 - 06:37 PM (#410474) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Hawker Hi, Mc Grath of Harlow, I cannot agree more, locally slaughtered meat would indeed be the way to go, and the demise of the local slaughterhouse, leading to farms in Northumberland and Devon using a slaughterhouse in Essex is surely the root cause. Its the old equation Saving vs making Money again - Somehow the world has got it wrong somewhere, surely it's not me being dim again is it? I have just read on the TV text pages that a farmer in Highhampton adjoining Mr Cleave's farm, who has also had to have his livestock slaughtered, called the police and television to his farm, I am not sure what transpired but the man was described as distressed and the police have confiscated his firearm to protect him from himself.... I am distressed just living and watching what is happening here, but to see one's lifes work go up in a huge pyre of smoke would be more than a little distressing, are MAFF or NFU offering any sort of counselling to these guys, I know there is some sort of compensation, but nothing can compensate for the sight of a huge pile of burning carcasses (sorry to be so graphic, but it IS horrible!) Sadder still, Lucy |
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03 Mar 01 - 06:45 PM (#410477) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: catspaw49 And isn't it pleasant to know that all governments have quit developing strains of both anthrax and hoof and mouth for use in warfare. I mean like its reassuring to know........isn't it? Places like Plum Island are developing tests and vaccines instead of new human loving strains of hoof and mouth. Glad my government has come completely clean on this. I feel much better now I tell you! Oh yeah..........sure is good to know the truth huh? Spaw |
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03 Mar 01 - 07:07 PM (#410486) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Rollo Now they have killed the first suspicious (yet not infected stock in germany, I wonder: what about deer and wild pigs? When there was an outbreak of "schweinepest" (I don't know what this highly infectious pigs disease is called in english) a couple of years ago they started to massacre wild pig populations all over Niedersachsen area... How is wild life threated in GB? |
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03 Mar 01 - 07:34 PM (#410493) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Jock Morris As far as I understand, one of the reasons for not vaccinating is the vaccine can effect milk yields in cattle, plus vaccinated livestock cannot be exported to countries that themselves don't vaccinate. Another reason for slaughter, rather than treating the animals is that although they recover fairly quickly they can stay infectious for up to 30 months. Scott |
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03 Mar 01 - 07:35 PM (#410494) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Greyeyes schweinepest is known as classical swine fever in the UK, there was on outbreak recently which many pig farmers are only just recovering from. Another reason that this F&M epidemic is so badly timed. The reason for slaughtering and burning when most animals would recover is the virulence of the disease. If it was allowed to run its course it would sweep the length & breadth of the country in a few months, and infect practically every cloven hooved beast in the UK. Slaughtering and burning is considered the most effective, in fact the only, way to hope to control it and limit its spread. People are having to watch their life's work, sometimes the sum of 2 or 3 generations work, go up in smoke. Irreplaceable bloodlines will be lost forever. Let's hope the government finally do something to rationalise food production in the UK, the supermarket's stranglehold is broken, and consumers start to think a bit further than the cheapness of their sunday roast. |
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03 Mar 01 - 07:41 PM (#410495) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Rollo "Let's hope (...) consumers start to think a bit further than the cheapness of their sunday roast" amen to that!
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03 Mar 01 - 07:56 PM (#410500) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: nutty Not much has been said about wild animals although there could be a problem with deer which roam free in many areas of the country - this is probably another reason for limiting movement in the National Parks and countryside |
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03 Mar 01 - 08:00 PM (#410502) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Jon Freeman Some further thoughts on its spreading. Jon |
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03 Mar 01 - 08:28 PM (#410508) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Hawker Hear hear Jon, Interesting article...... One assumes they have eradicated fling pigs and have that one under control........More's the pity! Lucy |
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03 Mar 01 - 08:52 PM (#410515) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: McGrath of Harlow "plus vaccinated livestock cannot be exported to countries that themselves don't vaccinate"
Which wouldn't be such a bad idea anyway. Britain imports more meat than it exports. So why is it exporting the meat in the first place? All down to economics, but it's crazy economics.
I don't really trust technical fixes, but here's a New Scientist article about new vaccines that could mean the end of the mass slaughter policy, and maybe provide such a fix. |
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03 Mar 01 - 09:18 PM (#410529) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Metchosin McGrath it is a serious disease, it can cripple animals, causing their hooves to slough off and the mortality rate among young animals is high, particularly for those born of mothers that are infected. I have never seen any publications that would suggest that the disease is wind borne, if it was, Canada wouldn't have been able to isolate and eradicate it in 1952. But as in all trading nations there is also political baggage associated with it as well. The disease has within the last few years devastated Iraq, particularly in the absence of vaccine and has spread into southern Russia and China. Ironically, Britain was one of the nations that sent vaccine to Iraq fairly recently, as humanitarian aid.
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03 Mar 01 - 11:13 PM (#410562) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Susan of DT (from dick greenhaus) THe strain that afflicted the US back in the 20s definitely caused high mortality rates among its victims. It was stamped out by the horrific slaughter of any herd in which any instance of the disease occurred. The only other carrier I heard of was wild deer, who were similarly exterminated en masse. My father was involved in this operation, and told me about it when I was a kid. I believe it was the disease that led to the discovery of virus infection. |
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04 Mar 01 - 04:53 AM (#410616) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Liz the Squeak Terribly depressing as I went down to my old home last weekend, and drove through to Devon. All gates were closed and signs posted warning trespassers of the consequences, many were blocked by farm machinery, and I had to wave hello to my aunt over a 12 yard 'no go' area in front of her farm. I didn't dare drive over, as I had been in Devon previously. Driving back to Devon the next day, there was a great pall of smoke over a small holding. There can only be two explainations, and as there were no buildings nearby....... LTS |
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04 Mar 01 - 05:43 AM (#410621) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Llanfair All the farms here have straw/disinfectant barriers at their gates, though stock high on the hill farms will be more difficult to protect. The farmers are not allowed to move the sheep down to the farm for lambing, so there will be casualties there. When I went to get poultry food from the agricultural suppliers, car tyres and feet had to be disinfected. Though the suppliers ran out of disinfectant for sale last Tuesday. The Deri Woods are closed. Whatever the politics, thousands of animals will die and farmers will give up or go bankrupt because the "powers that be" destroyed the local farming facilities,by closing local slaughterhouses. Bron. |
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04 Mar 01 - 06:13 AM (#410627) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Jon Freeman Metchoin, the UK site I linked to does state that this disease is wind bourne. Here is the relevant part of the FAQ.
Q How is it spread? Airborne spread of the disease takes place readily. The prevailing meteorological conditions and local topography determine the distance that the disease can travel and this may be considerable. For example, circumstantial evidence strongly suggests that the outbreak on the Isle of Wight in 1981 resulted from the airborne spread of the of the virus from Brittany in northern France. The disease is also spread mechanically by the movement of animals, persons, vehicles and other things, which have been contaminated by the virus. Meat from the carcase of animals infected with FMD at the time of slaughter can transmit the virus. In the past outbreaks of the disease have been linked with the importation of infected meat and meat products.
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04 Mar 01 - 10:59 AM (#410676) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Sorcha The whole mess is just too, too tragic. Are there any plans afoot in UK for the government to compensate these people in any way? (snide aside--the Royal Family's "allowance" could make a big dent in the losses" |
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04 Mar 01 - 11:18 AM (#410680) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Penny S. Two radio items - yesterday, a caller to a phone in, who sounded informed, stated that research had failed to show any transmission via wild birds, especially starlings - also, an earlier program reported a case in an earlier outbreak, in which moist air flowing above a river, had carried virus down from an infected farm to others in the valley. Penny S. |
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04 Mar 01 - 11:51 AM (#410691) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Metchosin Thanks Jon, missed that, might be controllable by covering manure piles as required here, but not for the stuff deposited out in fields. Gawd what a daunting task. Another reason for Britain and other areas of Europe to stop using carrion for protein in their stock feed. |
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04 Mar 01 - 12:07 PM (#410697) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Metchosin or for all Western powers for that matter, to stop bombing the infrastructure of countries such as Yugoslavia and Iraq (both of which have had epidemics recently) We live in a very small world and the ramifications of our actions soon come home to roost. |
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04 Mar 01 - 12:13 PM (#410699) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: MARINER In the last U.K. outbreak Foot and Mouth was kept out of Ireland by discouraging people from travelling to the country and by disenfecting all at ports and airports. This time could proove different. Open borders and regular to and froing between both countries make it a lot more difficult that 1967. And then we have greed. The outbreak in Northern Ireland appears to have been caused by lambs brought from a market in Carlisle, some of which (270)have been smuggled over the border into the Republic.Now all these animals are tagged. For some strange reason the inspectors in the Republics plant never noticed that the 270 lambs had there ear tags removed, and slaughtered them. Greed! So far there has been no confirmed outbreak in The Republic, if we stay free it will be nothing short of a miracle.Foot and Mouth is a blow to any country's economy.In the U.K.its something like .1% of the G.N.P.whereas in The Irish Republic it's 25% We get it in Ireland we're done for , bye , bye Celtic Tiger. |
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04 Mar 01 - 12:36 PM (#410706) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Metchosin One bright spot people might be that the virus is sensitive to environmental influences, "such as pH less than 5, sunlight and dessication, however it can survive for long period of time at freezing temperatures." Hopefully you have a warm dry spring as that will offer some natural control. |
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04 Mar 01 - 12:44 PM (#410707) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: sian, west wales It hasn't reached West Wales (I'm not going to say, Yet) but things are closed up tight. We've got all the disinfectant precautions as above. All public paths are closed, as are National Parks and National Trust properties. Local Authorities have very broad powers and I was told yesterday that Pembrokeshire County Council have even banned funerals other than those attended only by immediate family. They didn't really need to do this, as no farm family, or sensitive other rural dweller, would even think of going. My aunt in North Wales was rushed to hospital with gall stones on Tues. night but I can't go visit as I would have to go through infected territory ... and it isn't worth the risk. This time of year all areas hold their local Urdd Eisteddodau (music/literature competitory festival) which feed into the main annual event in May. Most, if not all, are now cancelled, which is a real blow for Welsh speaking Welshpeople. And still we get people coming in from the urban areas with their dogs and giving park Wardens grief when they are turned away. There's a very good article today on the front page of The Independent - perhaps it will be on line somewhere. It shows that MAFF is not interested in either human or animal welfare but in keeping big agricultural businesses safe. We've also had the first reports of F&M on Dartmoor ... which they say could mean culling the wild ponies. Oh, and re: the counselling ...yes, there is a network of services available, largely through the Churches. There are also agricultural charities which are standing assurance to feed and food providers, in the event that farm families can't afford to feed themselves or their animals. They expect that the real crunch will come in a few weeks, when the realities start sinking in. This is not a happy situation. sian |
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04 Mar 01 - 12:57 PM (#410713) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Metchosin Shit! why cull them? just keep them to a more confined area. Don't suppose they will cull the Queen's horses or Prince Charles polo ponies...... |
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04 Mar 01 - 01:00 PM (#410715) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Greyeyes I think this is the article you mean Sian. Click here
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04 Mar 01 - 01:08 PM (#410722) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Metchosin Interesting article Greyeyes but there seems to be a bit of a discrepancy in that article between what the newspapers say about the virulence of the disease and what is documented elsewhere regarding mortality.....hmmm |
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04 Mar 01 - 01:24 PM (#410726) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Metchosin It would be interesting to find out what strain is currently in Britain. Here is more than you would ever want to know about it.
"Foot-and-mouth disease = hoof-and-mouth disease
Foot-and-mouth disease (FMD), also called HOOF-AND-MOUTH DISEASE, or AFTOSA, a highly contagious viral disease affecting practically all cloven-footed mammals, including cattle, sheep, goats, and swine. Wild herbivores such as bison, deer, antelope, reindeer, llama, camel, giraffe, and elephant are also susceptible. The horse is resistant to the infection. The disease is characterized by the formation of painful fluid-filled vesicles (blisters) on the tongue, lips, and other tissues of the mouth and on parts of the body where the skin is thin, as on the udder and teats, between the two toes of the feet, and around the coronary band above the hoof.
There are seven major immunologically distinct types of the foot-and-mouth virus, and these types affect different species and produce symptoms of differing severity. The virus is spread by both inhalation and ingestion, and it has an affinity for epithelium (the covering of the skin and mucous membranes of the gastrointestinal tract); it forms a primary vesicle where it gains entrance in the body. Within 24 to 48 hours it enters the bloodstream, causing fever. During this phase, lasting 24 to 36 hours, the virus isexcreted in the saliva, the milk, the urine, and the feces. A characteristic smacking of the lips then usually becomes prominent in the infected animal, ushering in the phase of the formation of vesicles on the tongue, gums, and lips of the mouth. These vesicles rupture in about 24 hours, leaving raw, inflamed, and extremely painful surfaces that heal in one to two weeks. By this time the animal refuses to eat solid food. Blisters also appear on the foot, causing lameness. Foot-and-mouth disease is endemic throughout much of Europe, Asia, Africa, and South America. The virus can survive for relatively long periods of time in the air, in food and garbage, and even in hides, hair, and wool, so measures for controlling the disease are necessarily rigorous. A diagnosis of the affected animals must be made quickly and the area quarantined, after which all infected or susceptible animals are slaughtered and their carcasses burned. Other contaminated objects are cleaned and disinfected, and the farm or other quarantined area is left uninhabited for several months. The development of effective vaccines has helped control epidemics but has not eliminated the disease. As a result of strict quarantine measures and the prompt destruction of infected animals, North America has remained largely free of the disease; the last major outbreak in the United States was in 1929. There is no effective treatment for infected animals." |
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04 Mar 01 - 01:30 PM (#410728) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Greyeyes The virulence of the disease refers to the incredible speed with which it spreads. It is not usually fatal to animals, but if not slaughtered and incinerated they A)are of little market value once they recover, and B) allow the disease to spread uncontrolled. Animals that recover can remain infectious for some time. As Sian says, there's now a reported case in the middle of Dartmoor (incidentally on a farm owned by Prince Charles), which has been completely isolated for some time. It was almost certainly airborn. Confining Dartmoor Ponies is not practical. It's a huge area, they roam wild all over it. I'm not sure what purpose a cull would serve either, they couldn't hope to kill them all, and I trust, wouldn't try. Dartmoor is one of most important livestock areas in the country, it just gets bleaker and bleaker. |
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04 Mar 01 - 01:51 PM (#410733) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Metchosin Sorry Greyeyes I should have said pathogenicity, not virulence, regarding the strain affecting in Britain, as you can note by the above article, there are "seven major immunologically distinct types of the foot-and-mouth virus". Viruses are not my specialty, my past experience has primarily been in the field of quarantine regarding plant parasites, specifically the nematodes G. rostochiensis and B. xylophilus, both of which were highly political internationally. |
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04 Mar 01 - 02:04 PM (#410739) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Greyeyes Not my speciality either Metchosin, but I suspect the Govt.ministry responsible (MAFF) would not be concerned with the strain. Their response would be the same even if it was the mildest strain. |
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04 Mar 01 - 02:16 PM (#410747) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Megan L I had to go to Glasgow for family reasons and spent the week watching in horror as they said the first two confirmed cases could be controled if precautions were taken - I remember the nightmare last time around,we weren't allowed to go and play with pals who lived on farms, one of them lost thier entire herd of cattle including my pals pet calf - as I thought it spread fast and wide. As we got on the boat to come home we had to drive over disinfected carpets, same getting of. while the effect on the animals is awful the possible effect on those working in farming could be tragic, last time the suicide rate soared. |
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04 Mar 01 - 02:16 PM (#410748) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Metchosin yup, that's the politics of dancin' |
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04 Mar 01 - 03:11 PM (#410782) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Metchosin Megan my comment regarding dancing was directed to Greyeyes' post, not yours. |
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04 Mar 01 - 03:21 PM (#410790) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Sorcha I still want to know abou compensation or subsidies, and it would be VERY interesting to know about the "Royal" animals----polo ponies, coach horses, Corgis, etc, etc. I just imagine how well it would go over if MAAF said "Oooo, yer Majesty, we're sorry, but all the Corgis are getting burnt". Coooooo-ie!! Or Camilla's horses, now wouldn't that be a kick? |
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04 Mar 01 - 03:32 PM (#410793) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Hawker Sorry Sorcha, but it doesn't matter to me whether it is a Dartmoor pony that is affected or one of Camilla's best hunters, they are all innocent animals who are subject to a nations greed, directly or indirectly. For those of us who really are suffering, Royal bashing just isn't an issue at the moment, and as for compensation, there is info on the MAFF website threaded above if you care to look, but no amount of compensation can replace, in some instances generations of hard work. Lucy |
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04 Mar 01 - 04:00 PM (#410806) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Greyeyes Sorcha, there will be compensation for slaughtered beasts, but that won't make up for the years, decades, generations of work that goes into raising a herd/flock of quality livestock. And the compensation will not extend to the other industries and businesses tied up with farming. I agree with Hawker, this is not the time or the place to bring the monarchy into question. As a lifelong republican I yearn for the day when I can call myself a citizen, rather than a subject, but I don't see how slaughtering the queen's animals will influence anything. |
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04 Mar 01 - 05:10 PM (#410829) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Megan L 'sOK Metchosin figured I must have slipped into the middle. Hawker and greyeyes are right, at the moment this isn't about rank, title, blame or ethical beliefs, for those concerned it is about surviving till tommorow. Many small hauliers, butchers and other local businesses in farming areas work on very small profit margins, this could be one straw too many. |
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04 Mar 01 - 05:40 PM (#410837) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Penny S. Interesting article - contradicted by a spokesman on the BBC, who said that milk prduction dropped to zero, and muscle building effectively ceased - not a drop in production but an end to it. Sounded like a response to all the "what on earth are we doing this for?" talk. Penny |
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04 Mar 01 - 06:00 PM (#410845) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Greyeyes There are many contradictions being bandied (sp?) around at the moment. The BBC spokesman may have been briefed by MAFF,and not bothered to look any further. As Metchosin has pointed out, there are 7 types of F&M, of varying degrees of severity. I haven't heard this discussed by the BBC yet, in fact I haven't heard it discussed by anyone except Metchosin. |
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04 Mar 01 - 06:05 PM (#410850) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: McGrath of Harlow As I understand it, foot and mouth is analogous to flu in humans - which can be fatal on an emormous scale, or can be little worse than a cold, depending on what strain it is, and what condition you are in to start with. I would imagine that, with the way animals are treated these days in the agricultural business, it would probably tend to be fatal to a high proportion, even if it is a relatively mild strain.
And since horses can't get it, talk about culling horses is irelevant, except for those that are free to roam around like Dartmoor ponies. The reason horses get mentioned in this context is that they carry earth around on their hooves, and so could move infected material around - as could cars, boots, hedgehogs etc., and apparently wind.
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04 Mar 01 - 06:18 PM (#410853) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Sorcha That is my point, friends. I don't really mean to Royal Bash, but my guess is Their Animals will escape destruction regardless of the situation,just because they are Royal and have "priviliges". I don't really care either; I am a citizen of a Republic, not a subject. We settled that issue on this side of the pond over 200 yrs ago.
No, financial compensation will not restore ancient bloodlines, but it would go a long ways in avoiding backruptcy, and possilby suicides. I would weep over my bloodlines, but if I were compensated it would go a long way towards establishing new ones........if my children were fed in the meantime.
Bloodlines can be re built, over several lifetimes. They have been before, and will be again, but can a family and a lifestyle after bankruptcy and or sucicide be re built? I think not. I guess my real question is, just exactly what is the Royal Family doing about this extreme crisis? I do know that it is an extreme crisis, both personally and internationally economic.........but,it is, after all, Her Kingdom......whether She is a figurehead or not.......She does not have total control over the Kingdom as in the Middle Ages, I know that. The fact remains that She and They have moral control over the Kingdom even though that has slipped considerably lately.
If I had no compensation, no hope for continuing my business and no hope for my family's future, I think that in many cases this would lead to murder/suicide.I hope and pray that this is not true, but I would still be interested in the Palace's postiton on this, especically after all the recent uproars in light of the Family, and maintaining Them.
I am not trying to be crass, "Royals" hold as much fascination for me as they do most Americans.....(because we just don't Get It? or because we still "want" this in some way? whatever)
HRH Charles, would at least, I think, go with the flow......"if it needs to be done, then so be it......." Charles has always been practical, if nothing else, but the rest of them? I am NOT trying to be nasty or bashing here, just asking.......I know there are LOTS of problems being a Public Person (Royal or not) that I as a Private Person do not understand. I personally think it would be HORRIBLE to have to be a Public Person....... |
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04 Mar 01 - 06:28 PM (#410858) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Dave Wynn I very nearly posted a series of corrections to this thread. It is full of postings by people who have no real information and guessed or listened to TV for their information. This and the ubiquitous "I remember the last time..." or "bloody England again" brigade. I expected more from this list. I am so sorry I was disappointed. Spot (not a cloven hoofed animal) the Dog |
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04 Mar 01 - 06:31 PM (#410860) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Jon Freeman sorcha, I have no idea what the Royal Family will do but I guess they might do a little bit of PR and leave the rest to the government. As for Americans not "getting" the Royal Family, I don't get it either and would prefer a republic but as others have indicated here. The country has far greater worries than that at the moment. Jon |
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04 Mar 01 - 06:35 PM (#410862) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Greyeyes Sorcha, 'Their' animals will only escape destruction as long as they are not implicated in the spread of the disease. If Charles' free range pigs at Highgrove contract F&M they will all be slaughtered, as will every other beast on his farm. The Queen's position in issues like this is to support the elected Government, who nominally represent her. In this case she has to toe MAFF's line, and cannot be seen to opose their policies. She will no doubt offer whatever crumbs of comfort and support she can to the people affected. While I appreciate that bloodlines can be replaced, the compensation the farmers receive will not reflect the investment that they and their families have put into the animals. The amount they get for one dairy cow will not match the years of milk yield they might have anticipated, and it is likely that their children will still go unfed. Most UK farmers, particularly the small ones, are in hock at the bank up to their eyeballs, and have no hope of borrowing any more to start building up herds and flocks again. I appreciate your concern over the privileged status of the royals, but it just isn't relevant in this debate.
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04 Mar 01 - 06:40 PM (#410864) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Greyeyes Spot, what stopped you from posting the corrections? Most of us are happy to stand corrected. |
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04 Mar 01 - 07:09 PM (#410886) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: TamthebamfraeScotland Where I live in Scotland, as most people know that for some reason, I live quite near some farms, however I've been lucky so far as the virus hasn't reach here yet. As for the Royal family and their animals, what have they got to do with the foot and mouth virus or in the case of Prince Phillip, 'FOOT IN MOUTH'. Tom |
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04 Mar 01 - 07:28 PM (#410891) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Metchosin Spot I am trying to glean some understanding re contradictions that have been bandied about, by citing relevant information from United Nations, USDA and Canadian Department of Agriculture literature that is readily available on the net and not couched in excessive technical jargon. If you have more expertise please do post. |
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04 Mar 01 - 07:38 PM (#410894) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Sorcha OK. Thank you all. I appreciate your answering my questions. And I think I now understand just why "Royal" is not an issue. It's good that it is not, but they will not suffer from the destruction of their animals in the way that family farmers will........I agree that the whole mess is just too, too tragic........what a mess for any government to have to deal with.
I still in a way, think it comes down to Mother Nature sending us back our own wages.....in a sense, like HIV/AIDS. Mother Nature WILL win, in her own way, in her own time.........the destruction of Homo Sapiens means nothing in the long run, no more than the destruction of the Dinosaurs did. "LIFE" is what matters, not a particular species......and ours could be construed to be the least of all the species, if all things were taken in consideration..
IS there another species that has done as much damage to this planet as the Homo species? I really rather dobut it.
OOops, forgot the Creep Alert message.......but, I figure, "Mother Nature" values all other species just as much as "She" does Homo Sapiens, so She is standing clear of the battle. May the "best" species win..............as long as the Planet survives...... |
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04 Mar 01 - 07:46 PM (#410895) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Greyeyes Further to what Metchosin said, the links on this thread so far have been to a MAFF site, a Canadian Food Agency site, the Independent on Sunday, and the Daily Telegraph. "...It is full of postings by people who have no real information and guessed or listened to TV for their information." Please enlighten us. |
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04 Mar 01 - 07:58 PM (#410903) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Greyeyes Sorcha, I definitely don't want to get into an HIV/AIDS debate, but the mother nature issue is not entirely thread creep. Both the press and the Govt.in the UK are starting publicly to admit that there may be something seriously wrong with the way we produce food. "Naturam expellas furca, tamen usque recurret." (Horace 65-8 B.C.) |
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04 Mar 01 - 08:08 PM (#410907) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Metchosin Greyeyes you are not alone, the day of the family farm and local processing is either long gone or seriously threatened on this continent as well, we are just fortunate that there hasn't been an outbreak here in a long while. |
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05 Mar 01 - 02:49 AM (#411042) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Liz the Squeak Of course, if the abbatoirs had been kept small and local instead of being closed and turned into huge great central meat processing plants, miles from anywhere, the spread might not have been so far, so fast. Look at the first route of infection. All the way down the M1. The next route - across on the M5. Coincidence??? LTS |
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05 Mar 01 - 05:14 AM (#411047) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: KingBrilliant Living in a town we haven't appreciated much of what is happening yet. This is a very scarey thread. My sympathies to everyone who has already been affected. Kris |
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05 Mar 01 - 06:45 AM (#411052) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Dave the Gnome Symapthies to all affected, but once again greed has taken presidence over sense and the end result is for all to behold. Who's greed? The farmers for trying to cut their costs? The supermarkets for driving the farmers prices down? The governments for not intervening sooner? No. Sorry. The ultimate blame is with us. The consumer. Our food bills have gone down from a third of our earnings to one fifth in a couple of grenerations. Why? To get more holidays, bigger cars and louder hi-fi's. Supermarkets are giving away food we don't realy need. Look in any store and see how many 'buy one get one free' offers there are. We are told we must get more for less all the time and we have now begun to believe it. The advertisers have created a wonderful world where everyone eats nothing but the finest and biggest. Only the third world starves while we gorge ourselves on king size greaseburgers, mega-happy cholestrol sandwiches and bargain buckets of fried farmed animal bits. Well, sorry, but 'cheap' food is a myth. It sure seems less expensive but what about the hidden costs. BSE., FMD. and our own increasing rate of heart disease all have to be paid for somehow. Let us insist on quality rather than quantity. Let the farmers charge the supermarkets a price which will allow proper feeding and preparation. Let the supermarkets charge a sensible economic rate. It would do us no harm to cut down a little. Or to shift our emphasis back from rampant consumerism to the basics of feeding our families properly. Would it? Dave the Gnome |
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05 Mar 01 - 06:53 AM (#411054) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: KingBrilliant You are absolutely right of course DtGnome, but how do we move from the current situation? It seems like a huge & impossible task - hopefully not... but its hard to see how to make such a huge change. Kris |
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05 Mar 01 - 07:06 AM (#411057) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Dave the Gnome I'm not sure Kris. Usual 'intellectual disease' - big on theories, short on practice!!!:-( I guess however the task might have been put in motion even as we speak. As the meat supplies dwindle, so will other food stocks. As food in general becomes in shorter supply, prices will inevitably increase. Once we get used to higher prices and the food supplies begin to replenish the prices need to be held at that level and then the surplus profits used to get our farming industry back on the right lines. Lovely theory, but as I said before, weak in practice. The prices will stay high but the extra profits will of course go into someone elses pocket and we will be back to square one. Anyone economists or polititians out there with a good workable solution? Cheers DtG |
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05 Mar 01 - 03:01 PM (#411355) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: oggie In the UK the percentage of our individual income that we spend on food has never been smaller, the percentage we spend on leisure has never been higher. One reason for this is that food prices are (in historic terms) at an all time low (I know it doesn't seem like that when we pay the grocery bill) and the big reason is that the supermarkets put the squeeze on the supply chain. The only responses that the farmers have are to employ fewer people, pay less and go all out for production. As an example 20 years ago I could earn £50 a day hand-picking sprouts, today you might be lucky and earn the same! But... we all like our leisure spending, all my instruments are but one aspect of this. Are we collectively going to pay more for food and spend less on ourselves? All the best Steve |
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05 Mar 01 - 04:21 PM (#411422) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Greyeyes To some of us spending on ourselves MEANS food. I am more of a foodie than I am folkie. For many years I have only bought meat from the quality end of the market. I can't afford to buy entirely organic, but I only buy British meat, outdoor reared pork, free range chicken & eggs. I try whenever possible to use small independent butchers or farmers markets. I eat a lot of fish. Quite simply, it is the responsible thing to do, if you have any concern at all about the sort of world you want to leave behind for your children and grandchildren. Supermarkets may appear to be giving food away, but a couple of years ago when the sheep farming industry was in crisis, farmers were receiving something like 25p per beast at market. There was no discernible reduction in the price of lamb in supermarkets. Somewhere along the line someone was making a lot of money, farmers were going out of business or shooting and dumping lambs because it was cheaper than taking them to market, and the consumers were being ripped off. The food that fills supermarket shelves over the next few weeks to make up for the shortages will mostly be foreign imports, produced with far lower standards of animal welfare than equivalent UK products, not that most consumers give a toss about that, they're too busy campaigning for the abolition of foxhunting. |
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05 Mar 01 - 06:21 PM (#411534) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Llanfair Greyeyes, I'm glad you mentioned the price of lamb. It is one of the most expensive meats you can buy, but the farmers get very little for lambs. The more "out of season", the better the price, therefore lambing can be underway just after xmas. The lamb mortality rate, even with indoor lambing, is 20% A FIFTH OF LAMBS BORN EVERY YEAR DON'T SURVIVE!!! Why? the encouragement of multiple births. Farmers make nothing from the skins, they used to be exported to Russia, but not now. Fleeces are worth less than the cost of shearing, and no-one eats mutton any more. F&M is the last straw. Welshpool was like a ghost town today, market day. The roads are deserted as there are no visitors, and many social activities have been cancelled for the duration. We're waiting for confirmation of a case at Churchstoke, 16 miles away. Bron. |
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05 Mar 01 - 07:31 PM (#411567) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: BanjoRay I was told today that apparently someone went walking in the forbidden Snowdonia hills this weekend and found him(her)self in difficulties. The person called out the mountain rescue team who fished them out of trouble. (S)he was then fined £5000 for breaking the Foot and Mouth regulations! Does anyone know if this is true, and any factual details - I'm wondering if its a case of getting fined for using a mobile! heh heh.... anyway it would damn well serve them right! Cheers |
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06 Mar 01 - 04:21 AM (#411837) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Dave the Gnome Good on yer, Greyeyes. buying from the 'quality' end of the market is certainly a start and is something I will be doing far more of from now on. I used to think it was daft buying, say, a 1Kg piece of scottish beef when I could buy 2kg of the 'supermarket special' for the same price. I now realise it was just my greed. I don't need 2Kg but it is all you can get if you want to buy cheap. I end up giving some to the cat! Can anyone show me though how to determine that the extra cost is realy going to the food producers to improve standards and not to a greedy middle-man? It would certainly help pacify the side of my brain that hunts for bargains! And I suspect it would then become a better argumant for everyone to take up. Cheers DtG |
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06 Mar 01 - 05:00 AM (#411844) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: sian, west wales BanjoRay, you heard more-or-less correctly. It was a man from Telford who went walking in Snowdonia, fell, and had to be rescued. There is a provision for fines up to 5000ukp, but I haven't heard what has actually happened. I hope they throw the book at him. It wasn't like he wasn't warned. I understand that, apart from all the news reports, Gwynedd County Council actually paid for ads in the English press telling people to stay clear. Dave, I work for Wales Rural Forum which has been preaching community, environmental and economic sustainability for years, and doing a lot of work on added value local produce. Alternatives do exist, but it seems that people sit up and take notice only when there's a crisis - BSE, F&M, etc. I must also say, however, that having a National Assembly here in Wales, weak though it may be, is a bonus. If you're really a legislative junkie, you could get the NAW consultation document: Farming for the Future, LtS, you're right about the haulage and the local abatoirs. With the exception of Anglesey, and the cases right on the Wales/England border, Wales has so far remained free of the disease. We don't exactly have very local abatoirs, but we have a fair few that are going strong so haulage isn't as big an issue. At government level, Wales has done some stirling work in terms of developing local produce into premium rate goods, and I think our farming community's practices reflect the potential in that market. The trick with abatoirs, of course, is the "adding value". The real profit lies in processing the carcasses into the above, not just killing and shipping out. Another thing: we always talk about supermarkets but the fast food market creates even more pressure on farmers. For countries free of F&M at present, it's worth noting that one hypothesis is that the disease came into the UK via food scraps from airports and international flights which were then fed as slops to pigs. If this is true, or even if it's scientifically possible, it's a lesson that needs to be acted upon. Oh, dear. Snow over there. F&M (and possibly floods before the end of the week) over here. Point me in the direction of a good news thread, someone! sian |
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06 Mar 01 - 05:23 AM (#411850) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Steve Parkes There have been some cases reported, in the Forest of Dean for exampe, of idiotic walkers actually removing warning notices and then walking in closed areas. A farmer in Bucks (I think) had a lot of equipment stolen from his quarantined farm; presumably the thieves went to or from other farms, taking the virus with them. Steve |
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06 Mar 01 - 08:59 AM (#411921) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Gervase Dave, et al, You're right - the long-term solution is down to us as consumers. We get our food both too cheaply and at too high a price. Without wanting to sound preachy or holier than thou, we should all buy ethically. For me that means not using the big chains. The only supermarket chain I'm remotely comfortable using is Waitrose (and that because, maybe naively, I feel that as part of the John Lewis partnership it is that bit more ethical). Instead I've rediscovered the joys of shopping. My local butcher has become a mate, and the delights of seasonal eating have returned. OK, he charges maybe 10 per cent more than Tesco's around the corner, but his meat is 100 per cent bettter, it's organic and you can see on the blackboard behiind the counter where it's come from in most cases from farms less than 15 miles away). As a result meat has become a treat - I only eat it a couple of times a week, but I'm happier and healthier that way. But the problem is to do with more than just meat. Pick up a pack of mange-tout in Sainsburys/Tesco/Asda/Safeway and read the label.- It says "only" 99p, yet it's been grown and picked in Kenya by farmers who are paid the lowest prices the chains can squeeze; who have to grow the bloody stuff with the aid of tonnes of chemicals to survive rather than produce crops that are economically and nutritionally useful to their own population. Then it's been flown in a jet using tonnes of polluting aviation fuel just so you can enjoy the freakish sensation of baby peas in March. It's more than freakish - it's almost obscene. As obscene as Peruvian asparagus in February or Chilean strawberries in January. So don't buy them. Make new friends by using proper independent butchers, bakers, greengrocers and fishmongers and market stallholders - because if you don't, they'll close up and leave the high street to the chains. Be a bolshie bugger and ask awkward questions - where does this come from? Can I eat this without harming myself, anyone involved in its production or our planet? Be passionate about what you eat and communicate that passion. And, if you can, grown your own food. Then you'll know what mange-tout shuld taste like and you'll cherish the months when you can eat 'em. Shoot your own - a walked-up pheasant or a fat woodie that's been stuffing its crop with your peas has had a bloody sight better life than a battery hen, and it tastes better too. And make a conscious decision to stuff the supermarkets. Cut up your loyalty cards and chuck 'em - they're just ways of hooking you the consumer into their cosy cradle-to-grave cocoon. Tell your friends, family and colleagues and explain why you're doing it. Be proud of being 'different' or 'difficult' - and, let's face it, as folkies we're used to that! Remember the boycott of South African produce? That was derided as 'woolly liberal faddishness', yet it made a difference. Ask the South African wineries and they'll tell you. So get angry - but direct your anger. If there's a phone-in on the local radio on food issues, take part. Write to your local paper. Educate your kids - don't let them graze on junk, but fill their minds and bodies with wholesome stuff. None of us needs most of the crap we consume. Make that difference. Sorry, end of rant! |
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06 Mar 01 - 09:35 AM (#411947) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: GUEST,Patrish A brilliant rant Gervase! I am inspired to attempt to try what you advocate. Patrish |
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06 Mar 01 - 09:51 AM (#411955) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: sian, west wales Amen! I'm lucky - I live across the street from our main provisions market and can do a lot of shopping on Saturday. However, it helps if the sellers help us out by doing their bit. As I'm sure happens in other rural towns, shops still open as though all women are stay-at- home housewives and can shop from 9 - 5. Well, I work those hours, and just far enough from the town centre to make lunch-time shopping impractical. So I have to freeze stuff. We also have a monthly farmers' market (presumably cancelled for the time being), which opens from 10-4 on a Friday, for gosh stake! Not open when you go to, or come from, work, and not all offices have facilities for cold storing food if you shop at lunch. So, it takes some pulling together at each end to make this work. I for one will make a(nother) Lenten promise - to give up buying meat and veg at supermarkets! sian |
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06 Mar 01 - 10:28 AM (#411982) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Steve Parkes You're overlooking the fact that there are an awful lot of people who simply can't afford to buy any but the cheapest food, however unethical. When it comes to a choice between barely feeding your kids or being politically correct (and I don't mean that in a negative sense), then there's no choice. Granted, some people chose to be parsimonious -- they are open to persuasion, but there are those who don't have the luxury of choice. I now I'm starting to sound like my dad now, but there just ain't any simple answers! Steve |
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06 Mar 01 - 12:40 PM (#412063) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: John J BBC Radio 4, PM prog @ around 5.30pm 6th March. Meat prices are increasing. Farmers prices are not. Nuff said. |
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06 Mar 01 - 12:59 PM (#412077) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Metchosin sian the last outbreak in Canada in 1952 was reputed to have come from homemade sausage brought in by a European immigrant. I would suspect that swine would be the most likely point of entry, given the fact that, at least when I was more current in my association, resturaunt scraps and outdated supermarket produce and dairy products were commonly fed to pigs here and I Imagine still are.
As an Agriculture Inspector at Vancouver International Airport, I found it was amazing the variety of products people tried to bring in, either unwittingly or smuggled in their baggage and the flack we took, no matter how carefully and patiently we explained the implications of their banned goods, was incredible. We were always understaffed and I would imagine given today's international traffic, even more so. Cold comfort I know, but the call has been put out here for government Vets from B.C. to go over and help, so at least I may feel that my tax dollar in Canada is offering some small assistance. |
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06 Mar 01 - 02:07 PM (#412117) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Megan L Thanks Steve your right it's great to have high ideals if you can aford them, unfortunately £75 a week means you feed folk on what you can get. |
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06 Mar 01 - 02:13 PM (#412120) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: McGrath of Harlow "The only supermarket chain I'm remotely comfortable using is Waitrose" - you might try the Co-op as well. |
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06 Mar 01 - 03:08 PM (#412184) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Peg well I just typed out a huge diatribe about the humane farming initiative I helped fight for a few years back...and how/why it was defeated...but I got logged off and it disappeared! Wish Mudcat had a way to safehguard our rants! anyway, the humane farming initiative (in Massachusetts) would have helped small farms by allowing them to sell certified organically-raised, cruelty-free animal products to consumers willing to pay more for such things. The bill was defeated by a very visible counter-campaign known as the "Save the Family Farm" movement. Only thing the family farms didn't know: that expensivce campaign was paid for by none other then THE FARM BUREAU: one of the organizations which represents the huge corporate agribusinesses which have been systematically putting American farmers out of business for decades. The humane farming initiative would have forced huge agribusinesses to stop all their production-boosting practices: forcing slaughter of tumor-ridden animals (instead of allowing the carcasses to be trimmed of pathological growths and sold for pet food and sometimes human food); forced decrease of use of antibiotics and hormones; larger cages for hens; better treatment of veal calves; cleaner conditions on pig farms, etc. It lost. It lost and the people who voted against it don't even know why they were against it. They thought its supporters were a bunch of vegetarian outsiders with no interest in the local farming community. Nothing could be further from the truth. Since then I have realized the insidious profit motive that lies behind farming in the US. It is all about the bottom line. Hence, more and deadlier pesticides, lower and more competitive milk prices forcing farmers to dump milk, "government-donated" dairy commodities like cheese and butter for the poor (a good thing but these surpluses only exist because of wrong-headed government subsidies to the farmers who needed them least)... It is with a heavy heart to see the situation in the UK and western Europe. As a confirmed anglophile and UK traveller, I usualy think of England as a placew of pastoral beauty, where locally-grown and raised food is available in every corner shop. Sadly, in recent years, I see more and more litter in public places, more and more hypermarkets, more and more Americanization (especially the beer and music in pubs, ick!!), more and more Burger Kings and McDonalds', more and more supermarkets with the meat all packaged prettily in plastic, as opposed to "on the hoof" like in the local butcher shop... You'd think it was turning into America. What happened??? How can we help?
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06 Mar 01 - 07:08 PM (#412366) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: GUEST,Pete M at work Hi all, just a few comments, easy stuff first: Peg, if you are doing a long post "rant" or not, try writing it using your favorite WP program and then doing a "copy and paste" into the dialog box in the thread, that way (providing you save your work as you go, you can't loose it) Here in NZ we have probably the most vulnerable economy in the developed world to F&M, and there is consequently hightened awareness of the problem now. BUT the inportant thing to remember is that F&M is endemic in about three quarters of the world, and the only way it is kept out of NZ, usually the UK, and other countries is by very stringent border control. Now this of course costs money both directly in paying the MAF officials, the disinfection programmes etc and in "inconvenience" to travellers, extra cost for importers, delays to airline schedules etc. So like the "method of farming" debate it all comes down to whaT WE collectively are prepared to pay and as has been noted above some people are not even prepared to give up their "rights" to walk in the country to prevent the spread of this disease, let alone be inconvenienced in their travel or pay more for their food. I understand very well Steve that choice in buying food is not an option for many, but it is true that "cheap at point of purchase" has been the policy of the UK, and most other Western governemnts for a long time. It is not this policy but how it has been achieved that is, if not the root cause, at least a major contributor. It has been unfashionable for a long time to consider the systemic outcomes of policy rather than the easily counted "outputs" and the "purely" economic argument for currently advocated farming methods whether intensive farming in Western Europe, the US, etc or the replacement of food with cash crops in developing nations ignores, as it is required to do by the rules, the external cost whether in health, social disruption or consumer costs. Of course there are no easy answers, but anyone even attempting to quantify the problem effectively flies in the face of received wisdom. Friedman, Reagan, Thatcher and Douglas (their disciple in NZ) may all be gone and best forgotten , but their shadow is long. Pete M PS We lived in Tavistock on the edge of Dartmoor for many years so I'm well aware of the problems in that area, and I have a small herd of goats so I also have a very personal interest in this subject. |
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07 Mar 01 - 05:06 AM (#412592) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Gervase Steve, I agree; buying all organic is more expensive. But consider the alternatives. Next time you're in the queue for the checkout, look at the baskets and trollies around you. Many will be filled with processed foods, prepackaged and branded, which cost far more than better-quality DIY food. Ready-made pizzas, ready-to-cook meals, pre-prepared veg - all of them are hugely more expensive than knocking up some dough, preparing a meal with the basic ingredients or simply topping and tailing your own veg. And that way, you'll know what your family is eating without having to deciper a string of E-numbers. For too long in the UK nutrition was not taught as it should. As a result, a whole generation of families on low incomes has been buying absolute junk and effectively wasting a large proportion of their weekly budget. And that's to say nothing of the helath implications. Remember the obesity figures last month - which were most worrying in the lowest socio-economic groups. There are wider considerations, of course - time and the tyranny of the modern work ethic being one of them. But I've had to support a family on an income below benefit level, and we ate like kings - masses of good thick bean soups made with a piece of bacon hock that cost around 50p and plenty of pasta augmented with as much fresh fruit and veg as we could afford. And, though we were poor, we didn't feel poor (but maybe that was down to the home-brew, the home-grown and the elderberry wine!). |
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07 Mar 01 - 08:31 AM (#412672) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Grab Part of the problem is actually _finding_ good-quality butchers, greengrocers, etc. We're lucky in that we've got a good butcher just round the corner from us, but we've yet to find a decent greengrocer. Lacking any other options, it's Tescos for our veg. Gervase, home-grown is great when you live somewhere with some land. But if you're in the 20th floor of a block of flats, you're a bit out of options, and growing veggies on the carpet is usually not appreciated by the neighbours! ;-) The irony is that the only way to stop this method of farming and stop the power that supermarkets have over farmers is to go back to protectionist pricing policies (ie. we can't import ultra-cheap stuff from abroad and destroy farming in our own country); allow government subisidies for farming a particular way (and the EU Common Agricultural Policy has just been a _huge_ success, hasn't it?); or dream up laws which give farmers more rights over pricing which will raise the price of food in the shops, cost consumers money, and therefore increase inflation. Hmm. Of course, if the farmers ganged together in co-operatives, as they used to, then the supermarkets would have less clout over individual farmers - as it is, they're hanging separately instead of hanging together. As far as the effects of F&M restrictions go, I fly hang-gliders, and that has basically stopped completely for the duration. Hill sites are mostly sheep-farming areas so those are out, and flat-land winch sites are on or near farms. And even if the site wasn't restricted, you can't guarantee where you'll come down on a cross-country flight. The national competition panel has said they'll refuse to accept any competition entries, and most local clubs have said they'll expell anyone caught flying from a restricted site. Grab. |
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07 Mar 01 - 05:12 PM (#412980) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Hawker Hi, Update from MAFF website as at 4 p.m. today (7th March) UK time,this was the following horror story..... 47,907 animals have been slaughtered 36,713 animals are awaiting slaughter 86 confirmed cases (including 1 in N Ireland) 151 premises are still under form A restrictions - these are served on premises where an affected or suspected animal is found or where it is suspected that Foot & Mouth exists. A local radio programme today had a veterinarian on stated that the virus could live on the soles of shoes and tyres for up to 6 months be vigilant! Lucy |
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08 Mar 01 - 01:15 AM (#413201) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: GUEST Be vigilant? Why? It's not as if it's incredibly dangerous, or anything. Get rid of BSE, instead. What's that saying? Take care of the pennies.... |
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08 Mar 01 - 04:56 PM (#413565) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Greyeyes I may have sounded a bit 'holier than thou' above. I know it can be difficult making the effort and meeting the expense of ethical shopping, but I live a hectic, busy life and don't earn a huge amount. I am, of course, single, so am only shopping for me, which makes it significantly easier and cheaper than shopping for a family. I am also fortunate in that I actually enjoy cooking. Part of the problem is we have not only become accustomed to cheap food, but have grown unaccustomed to eating the really cheap stuff. A sheep's head will feed a family of four for several days; tripe, liver, hearts, kidneys, brains, belly of pork, scrag end of lamb, a bit of boiling bacon. If you are really thrifty you can eat humanely reared British meat very cheaply. most people simply don't care enough, and would rather buy battery reared skinless chicken breasts in polystyrene trays, just as they'd rather shell out for pre-prepared frozen chips and veg rather than make the effort of buying fresh spuds and veg and preparing them themselves. If you really can't get to an independent greengrocer or butcher, at least make sure you only buy seasonal British produce from the supermarket. English Purple Sprouting Broccoli is just coming into season; it is wonderful, nothing like the ordinary broccoli most of us are used to. Look for it at your local supermarket and if it isn't there, ask to speak to the manager and find out why. On the F&M front, just as you though it couldn't get any worse.... |
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10 Mar 01 - 12:40 PM (#414706) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Gervase Grab - so right! What is wrong with people that they won't eat offal (or meat at all, unless it's pre-prepared, bloodless and wrapped in sanitised plastic)? Give me the inner organs of beasts and fowls - nutty gizzards and kidneys with a faint tang or urine - any day. But that's one of the problems surely; people don't like their food to taste of anything. I remember buying some cheese a couple of weeks back and the Saturday kid behind the counter apologised because it was "on the turn". It wasn't - it was just coming to perfection (which, being a Chaume, was pretty bloody pungent, I have to confess), but when I got him to taste a bit he could finally see that it was meant to hum, and that the stinky, gamey taste was actually what it was all about. But he still let me have it half price because "most people don't like it when it's gone this far". Maybe I should give him some of my jugged hare... Or maybe I'm just strange. I do like food that stands up and demands attentiom though. Andouilettes, stuffed hearts, tripe, tongue, brawn, haggis, oxtail, trotters, devilled kidneys...Ah, all those bits that now go into pet food and cheapo pies that we used to love for themselves. (sighs and slinks off to inspect the fridge, looking for the most pungent thing in there....) |
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10 Mar 01 - 12:55 PM (#414725) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Peg Gervase; while I confess I have often found these sorts of foods repugnant (glad I knew what sweetbreads actually were before I tried them thinking they were pastry), I think one reason people may be averse to eating them these days (why I am, at any rate) is the decline in standards for hygiene in the meat industry. So much more salmonella, e coli, etc. being found. Also, animals are pumped full of all sorts of poisons (anti-biotics, hormones, not to mention whatever pesticides they absorb from their food or heavy metals or toxic waste in their drinking water); and these organs often are the sites where such poison is filtered, so toxins would be more concentrated than in muscle meats.... I used to love *fresh* calves' liver when I was a kid (we would get it fresh when we had our butchered side of beef delivered to us twice a year) but I would not touch it now with a ten foot pole... |
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10 Mar 01 - 01:00 PM (#414730) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Gervase Ah, but then you sweet-talk your butcher and get the organic stuff...and leave the 10-foot pole for Tesco's! But why the problem with sweetbreads? They're just the thymus gland of a young-ish sheep. Sheeps' tescticles, on the other hand, are much more chewy and an acquired taste...(but I speak as one whose mother was an offal addict. I was raised on brains and bits, and a whole pig's head boiling on the hob would be a treat - especially as an inquisitive seven-year-old who loved collecting skulls...but maybe I should just keep quiet about my upbringing in case the social workers come calling!) |
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10 Mar 01 - 01:04 PM (#414733) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Gervase ...my mother did draw the line, however, when I found a large and long-dead mouse in the garden and tried to dissect it on her best wooden chopping block, using carpet tacks to hold down the skin and bits while wrapping a scarf around my face because, even to me, it was a bit high. Unreasonable harpy! |
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10 Mar 01 - 05:58 PM (#414846) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Greyeyes Gervase, that was exactly the point of my post, which I think you attributed to Grab. Free-range and organic meat is prohibitively expensive for most people, but if you shop for the cheap cuts/offal/wobbly bits, whatever you want to call them, they can often be cheaper than the over butchered, skinless, flavourless, plastic wrapped, chemical saturated garbage that most people live on. We're all busy people, taking a bit more time over your shopping rather than throwing factory farmed junk into your Tesco trolley is better for you, better for your children and better for the planet. If you think it's important you'll find the time. If you don't care, you won't. I too have fond childhood memories of my mother up to her elbows in pig's brains making brawn. Not a pretty sight, but it hasn't put me off the wobbly bits. |
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10 Mar 01 - 07:17 PM (#414881) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Jon Freeman One could always eat more vegetables. Jon |
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10 Mar 01 - 07:42 PM (#414886) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Greyeyes Are you confident the veg you buy & eat isn't coated in chemicals, Jon? The Govt. recommended several years ago that all non-organic carrots should be peeled before eating. If the Govt. admit there is dodgy stuff on unpeeled carrots, it must be pretty dodgy: it took them years to admit beef might be a bit iffy. |
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10 Mar 01 - 10:42 PM (#414946) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Jon Freeman A lot more confident now I am temporarily living with my parents Greyeyes - they have a nice little vegetable plot (not to mention their own hens). Jon |
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10 Mar 01 - 11:12 PM (#414961) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Sorcha It just keeps getting worse, doesn't it? Will all of Europe and the UK end up being vegetarians by force? Vegan/Vegetarian is, of course possible, but it takes a LOT of attention to diet, which most people are not willing to do.
I am given to understand that horse meat is human comestible in Europe......horses can move F & M on their feet, but they don't contract it, so the meat would not be contaminated. Being from the US, I just don't think I could wrap my head around horse meat unless I was awfully hungry.
Somewhere above, someone mentioned the impossiblity of gardening in a flat complex. It's not impossible, just difficult. You have to want to very badly. First,
there is Roof top container gardening. Lots of miniature veggies have been created (hybridized) just for this. Baby carrots, Petite Pois, Cherry tomatoes, etc.
Second, there is "hanging basket" gardening. All you need is a sunny window.......
Third, in the US there is a movement called Community Gardens for people without land, space or dirt. The land is owned by Person or Entity A who rents out parcels of the dirt. The owner tills, and you plant, fertilize and harvest as you wish. At the end of the season, you clean up your own plot and next spring, the Owner tills again. Water bills are divided on a ratio basis. We have two Community Gardens in my town, even though it is called The Gardening Town of Wyoming. Everybody has a garden and getting rid of produce in August gets very creative! One plot is owned by the Episcopal Church, the other by the City. Maintenance on both is done by the local junior college. |
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11 Mar 01 - 05:49 AM (#415076) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Fiolar Interesting in that all the postings no mention has been made about the inpact on the British Tourist industry. The hoteliers and others in the areas banned to tourists are facing bankruptcy. Farmers will get compensation but people living in such places as the Lake District and other beauty spots will get zilch. Already many have had canellations and have had to lay off staff. Another point made in one of today's papers is that 75 percent of organic food is bought by only seven percent of consumers. |
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11 Mar 01 - 06:43 AM (#415088) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Llanfair Sorcha and Grab, all UK towns and cities have allotments, mostly under used, which can be rented for about £30 a year. If I were forced to live in a city again, I would have one, or two!! Now that the Deri woods are closed, and we are officially in an infected area, even though the nearest case is miles away, the town is deserted today. Usually people are coming to walk in the woods, or to attend one of the 3 places of worship, but there is no-one about. I have taken this thread seriously when it comes to supermarkets, and my monthly shop was just for basics like pasta, rice, tea and coffee. Our local butcher sells beef and lamb that he raises himself and knows personally, so I will be buying from him in future, and planting veg seed is well under way in the greenhouse and propagators. The hens have started laying again, too, so there is some good news!! Bron. |
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11 Mar 01 - 07:07 AM (#415100) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Greyeyes Jon, I'm deeply envious. The one thing I really miss since moving away from my parents place (apart from the dog) is the fresh veg they grew. Llanfair, bravo. Did you know it was "Fair Trade Fortnight"? Look for the fair trade logo on products and the producers are guaranteed a reasonable price for their crop, instead of being ripped off by the supermarkets in the way described above with the African mange tout. |
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11 Mar 01 - 07:41 AM (#415111) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Greyeyes Click here for Fairtrade info
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11 Mar 01 - 02:10 PM (#415300) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: sian, west wales They announced yesterday that there is a suspected case just west of Carmarthen. This is very bad, as it is in a completely new area of Wales. As above, Tourism really is suffering ... as is everything else. My friends have a small pub / family-run hotel in Carmarthen town centre and there were all of 10 people in on Friday night. 10! On a Friday night!? If the case here is confirmed ... well, I hate to think. And if anyone wants an allotment ... you can have one in town here for 2 ukp, and that includes the 1 ukp for the key to the gate! But you can't give them away! << big sigh>> sian |
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11 Mar 01 - 02:39 PM (#415315) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Greyeyes Good article about the effect of F&M on the tourist industry here |
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11 Mar 01 - 02:47 PM (#415320) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Greyeyes Sorcha, horsemeat is consumed in most European countries, but in the UK we have as strong an aversion to it as Americans. It was widely consumed throughout the last war, but was rarely advertised for what it was; butchers thought up various euphemisms for it, and people pretended they didn't know what it was. |
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11 Mar 01 - 02:56 PM (#415324) Subject: RE: BS: foot and mouth From: Greyeyes Getting a bit long So click here for part 2
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