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03 Mar 01 - 10:32 PM (#410548) Subject: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: katlaughing I know this is a little early, by Mudcat time, but it is weighing heavily on my heart and I need to do this now. Worse things have happened, but I am saddened almost beyond belief at the destruction of the great carved Buddhas in Afghanistan, as well as all other images of the Buddha, by the extremist Taliban. I held out hope that appeals from the UN et alia would allow for the rescue of many, but alas, it seems not...it is a very sad day for the Honour of Cultural Heritage. Here is the latest: KABUL, Afghanistan –– Aiming to eliminate idolatry from Afghanistan, troops from the Taliban religious militia used explosives and rockets Saturday to destroy two soaring statues of Buddha, and militia officials said they had already eliminated two-thirds of the country's statues. What had not already been turned to rubble was slated to come down on Sunday and Monday, despite pleas from cultural, political and religious officials worldwide to save the priceless treasures. "The head and legs of the Buddha statues in Bamiyan were destroyed yesterday," said Taliban Information Minister Quadratullah Jamal, referring to the site about 78 miles northwest of the Afghan capital of Kabul. "Our soldiers are working hard to demolish their remaining parts. They will come down soon. We are using everything at our disposal to destroy them." Taliban's supreme commander, Mullah Mohammed Omar, on Monday ordered every statue in the country destroyed to conform with a strict brand of Islamic law banning graven images of people or animals. Most of the country's ancient Buddhist relics, fragments of Afghanistan's pre-Islamic past, were destroyed, Jamal said. Most of an estimated 6,000 statues in the Kabul Museum were as well, although the Taliban refused to allow anyone inside the war-battered building. "Words fail me to describe adequately my feelings of consternation and powerlessness as I see the reports of the irreversible damage that is being done to Afghanistan's exceptional cultural heritage," said Koichiro Matsuura, director-general of the U.N. Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization. The two Buddhas, 175 feet and 120 feet tall, are hewn from the side of a mountain in Bamiyan. The taller statue is thought to be thought to be the world's tallest standing Buddha. The pair were carved in the 3rd and 5th centuries, and both had been damaged by artillery fire during Afghanistan's long civil war. The Taliban militia, which rules 95 percent of Afghanistan, including Kabul, adheres to a strict brand of Islamic law. Their interpretation has been questioned by Islamic scholars in other Muslim countries and Islamic institutions. The mullah's order generated international outrage. The Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York offered to take the statues and preserve them. An UNESCO envoy met Abdul Salam Zaeef, the Taliban's ambassador in neighboring Pakistan, to register the world's outrage. Pierre La France of the U.N. Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization said Saturday that the destruction of the statues will only worsen the Taliban's already troubled relations with the world community. But Zaeef said, "It's a decree by ulema (clerics) and the government can't stop its implementation." The Taliban have been unmoved by international appeals. Some Islamic countries have called the order to destroy the historical relics embarrassing to Islam. "Our ulema (clerics) have given an edict. It cannot be taken back. There is no place for statues in an Islamic country," Jamal said.
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04 Mar 01 - 08:34 AM (#410652) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Peter T. This is a terrible thing. These are some of the earliest expressions of Buddhist compassion left to us, and are an irreparable loss to the art of the world. Buddhists take this quite personally, not because of any worship of the statues (Buddhists don't go around worshipping objects), but because so many temples and shrines have been destroyed in the last century, as part of a general attack on Buddhism in that part of the world, and it is connected to the killing of so many people so uselessly. yours, Peter T. |
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04 Mar 01 - 08:38 AM (#410653) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Fiolar An attempt to destroy a country's history is the greatest vandalism that any society can carry out. It's bad enough when a conquering enemy tries it but when it is carried out in the name of religion by the orders of bigoted hatefilled individuals who belong to the country's own people it is so much more sad. I suppose the next thing is to restart the calendar as the present one numbered from the birth of Christ must also be wrong. Yes, I know Islam dates the calendar from the birth of Mohammed but in dealing with the rest of the world, the Taliban must be aware of the Gregorian model. To pinch a phrase from Spiro Agnew the vandals could be regarded as "the hysterical hypochondriacs of history." |
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04 Mar 01 - 09:16 AM (#410659) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: BanjoRay It is dreadful to see ancient irreplaceable things being destroyed - but the media seem to be giving this far more coverage than they ever did about the Taliban's continuing demolition of the human rights of Afghan women. What do you think? Cheers (not many) |
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04 Mar 01 - 10:27 AM (#410669) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Greg F. A cautionary tale- some lessons here for the sort of thing that can be expected to take place if the "Christian"[sic] religous right fanatics get more political control in the US. And yes, it is curious that the Taliban 'crimes against statues' get more media coverage and evince more apparent nutrage that their far more pervasive 'crimes against persons'. Best, Greg |
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04 Mar 01 - 10:55 AM (#410674) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: katlaughing BanjoRay, i have written much on the terrible lives of women living in Afghanistan and I am glad you brought that up. Their main organisation for speaking out, RAWA, works tirelessly and at great personal risk to spread the word. It is indeed sad and ironic that the media focuses more on pieces of art. PeterT, you've, as usual, said what I was trying to, about the impact this has on Buddhism. My heart has been so sad because of that more than them being object of art. The only thing I could think of to compare to this is what has happened in Tibet, and of course, that really was/is much worse with so many lives lost and exiled. It's a bit difficult for me, at the moment, to try to emulate the Compassionate Budhha and understand how this has happened. Thank you all for your comments. |
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04 Mar 01 - 11:26 AM (#410682) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Penny S. Ray, thank you for mentioning that. I've been going round saying the same. However, it does occur to me that being less loud about the women may be sensible. If the Taliban listen about the statues, good. If they hear the criticism and get angry, we have lost beautiful artifacts, but the history is preserved outside. If they get angry about criticism of their treatment of women, more lives are lost. Penny |
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04 Mar 01 - 11:45 AM (#410690) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Sarah2 It's the same frightening mindset as was displayed during the Moslem burning of the library at Alexandria: The general who ordered the destruction of the greatest collection of antiquity's knowledge was reported as saying, in effect, "If it's not in the Koran, it is heresy and should be destroyed..." People who cannot cope with diversity of thought and belief give me the cold shivers. Sarah |
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04 Mar 01 - 12:01 PM (#410694) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: catspaw49 When I saw this on the news I was completely without words and my only thoughts were ones of rage. Will we see more of the same as we march to complete chaos? Why should this action surprise me? Do we really believe we are above this type of action in our own cultures? Spaw |
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04 Mar 01 - 12:07 PM (#410696) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Big Mick I am sickened, and frightened, and outraged by this. Fundamentalism, whether it be Christian, Islamic........whatever, is an intolerant expression and lacks respect for others. The problem with these people is the same one Catholics have faced for centuries from intolerant fundamentalist Protestants, it is the same one that Protestants faced during the Inquisition from fundamentalist Catholics. Idolatry is the worship of idols. The Buddhist doesn't worship these statues any more than the Catholic worships the statuary in our churches. We simply use them as focal points in our worship of God. It is The Eternal One that we worship. And these fanatics have deprived the world of great art, great expressions of the Buddhist people. Does the Taliban really think that they have lessened the ability of the Buddhist to worship? If anything they have strengthened the resolve to practice their faith (Is that the right word, Peter?) in the way that is right for them. When will these and others like them learn that it isn't as important where or how you pray, meditate, etc.. It is that you do it. Mick |
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04 Mar 01 - 12:57 PM (#410712) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Peter T. Thanks to all. As I said, Buddhists are not primarily concerned about statues. It has been said many times in our tradition that we would burn every statue if it would enlighten a single person. On the other hand, many Buddhists weave scarves to keep the statues warm on cold days, and talk to them as if they were family members. They are just expressions of love. That is what causes us sadness -- that they were built in reverence, and are being destroyed in mindlessness. Mindlessness that is reflected in the treatment of women, and the vicious version of Islam these idiots propound. It is also a reminder, as I said, of recent terrible histories that no one knows about. The Buddha will survive rocket attacks. yours, Peter |
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04 Mar 01 - 01:56 PM (#410736) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: KT This destruction carried out in the name of religion??? Or in the name of control? Can't they see that we ALL lose by this?
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04 Mar 01 - 02:11 PM (#410743) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: SINSULL My first reaction (after despair) was why didn't they hold these statues hostage, collect millions NOT to destroy them and use the money to support their own cause. Then I realized: if I had an opportunity to wipe out Hitler memoribilia or to sell it to reimburse Holocaust survivors,I would destroy it. Am I making sense? |
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04 Mar 01 - 02:37 PM (#410768) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Don Firth I am a church-going agnostic. That may sound like some sort of contradiction, but it isn't. (It's a Lutheran church, but it doesn't exactly follow the picture of Lutherans painted by Garrison Keillor, hilariously accurate though he can sometimes be. I guess you could say that this church is pretty liberal: our pastor is a young woman, our associate pastor is a large black man who wears an ear ring, and a couple members of the church council are gay.) Fundamentalists of every stripe seem to use the Bible, or the Koran, or whatever set of scriptures their faith is based on, not as a guide for their lives, but as a license to force their beliefs on the rest of the world. But what makes me want to gag is that frequently the scriptural "justification" for the atrocity du jour they wish to commit is either a misinterpretation, generally by taking a passage out of context, or not even there at all! Looking all through history -- the Inquisition, the persecution of the Moors and Jews in Spain and elsewhere, the obliteration of the Inca and Aztec cultures . . . a seemingly endless list that continues into this supposedly enlightened era -- Ireland, the Israelis and the Palestinians, much of what's going on in the Balkans, what certain Fundamentalist "Christian" sects want to do to this country -- just follow the news . . . one realizes that most of the horrors in the world have been committed -- and are still being committed -- by those who claim they were (are) acting in the name of God. I may be mistaken, but I've always thought that, at the core of every religion is some variation on the admonition "love one another." There is more than sufficient reason for the weeping of Jesus. Don Firth
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04 Mar 01 - 03:19 PM (#410788) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: wdyat12 There is absolutely no excuse for any culture to engage in the wanton destruction of archaeological and religious treasures of another culture, just as there is no excuse for slavery and ethnic cleansing. The human animal seems bound by patterns steeped in ignorance, arrogance, and intolerance. "When will we ever learn?" wdyat12 |
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04 Mar 01 - 04:04 PM (#410808) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Stewart Hi Don. I too was a Lutheran church-going agnostic. When I was told I was not going to receive salvation because I was not willing to convert my Jewish friends, and I found I could not question the dogma of the church, I became a Unitarian. A non-religious Jewish friend of mine laughed when I told him I had become a Unitarian, and said, "that is just a half-way house to kick the religion habit." I am now an ex-Unitarian. I have great respect for the religious views of others, but I do not want to be told what I should or should not belive. I believe religious intolerance is the root of most of the world's troubles. This is not religion, however, but a desire to gain personal power and control over other people. Cheers, S. in Seattle
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04 Mar 01 - 05:01 PM (#410826) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: GUEST,Fortunato Peter is of course correct, and non-attachment is where we must abide. I offer a prayer for the enlightenment of all sentient creatures, yes, even those who follow the Taliban, and at the same time weep for humanity's loss. Yet, even the destruction of the Buddhas offers an opportunity to practice love and forgiveness.
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04 Mar 01 - 05:53 PM (#410842) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: rube1 Those of you that take this destruction of statues by the Islamic Taliban group as a springboard to rant and wring your hands about the dangers of Christian fundamentalism are so off base I can't keep silent. Sure, there have been outrages in the past like the destruction and pillage of the South American cultures, but now, in 2001, there are no threats of that sort emanating from any Christian religions. This is not to say that Islamic fundamentalism is the only fundamentalist religion mired in ignorance today, but it is the only one that is smashing statues of inestimable historical value. For such a slim volume, which for centuries has advocated peace and harmony among nations, the Koran has been interpreted almost exclusively in my lifetime by men of colossal ignorance. I'm not a fundamental anything, but in this thread, specious sideswipes at Christianity are intellectually unsound attempts to create linkage with moronic behavior in Afghanistan. |
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04 Mar 01 - 06:02 PM (#410847) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Greg F. You're right, Rube- there are plenty of instances of domestic moronic behavior by Christian [sic] fundamentalists right here in the U.S. No need to look for foreign examples.Thanks for reminding us. Best, Greg |
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04 Mar 01 - 06:08 PM (#410851) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: katlaughing Fortunato, thanks for the gentle reminder and reiteration of what Peter mentioned. It is easier for me to practice love and compassion when I've got such loving and compassionate friends as you Mudcatters with which to discuss things. Namaste, kat |
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04 Mar 01 - 06:28 PM (#410859) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: McGrath of Harlow Well for anyone living in England, there is no shortaqge of reminders of a time when just this kind of thing was done here. When you visit any pre-Reformation church, the evidence of state sponsored vandalism back in the sixteenth and seventeenth century is still there, in the shape of broken statues and rose windows that aren't there. Though of course much of the evidence was destroyed where the "Reformers" were more throroughgoing, and left nothing behind.
There are varieties of fundamentalist Christianity which are as capable of this kind of blindness as any other religion or ideology. And tolerance towards people of other religions and their places of worship etc has in fact been characteristic of many Islamic cultures, including that in Iraq.
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04 Mar 01 - 06:41 PM (#410865) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Don Firth I think the church I go to (Central Lutheran on Seattle's Capitol Hill) is unique, and if it weren't the way it is, I probably wouldn't go to church at all. Most of the other churches in the synod alternate between admiring and being horrified by Central. Our former pastor, now retired, spent several sessions in jail for getting involved in protests (demonstrations outside the Bangor Trident nuclear submarine base, sit-ins with homeless in perfectly good buildings that were due for demolition, things like that). He walked the walk. Our present pastor, a woman in her early thirties, has also done a few sessions in the slammer for similar activities (she drew a bit of fire once for holding up a Bible and saying "This is NOT the Scout Manual. It contains questions, not answers!"). As far as I know, it was the first church in this area, certainly the first Lutheran church, to include the phrase "regardless of . . . sexual orientation" in its Affirmation of Welcome. There is the usual liturgy and general background of belief (which frequently gets called into question), but I don't think anyone has ever told me what I had to believe. I think we (including the pastors) are all groping around, trying to learn what it all means. In the meantime, feed the hungry, find homes for the homeless, visit the sick and imprisoned, respect those whose beliefs differ from ours (after all, they may be right) . . . a really neat bunch of people who do some real good in the real world, but aren't afraid to haul off and be zany at times. Even though Central is in the Evangelical Lutheran Church in American, they don't "evangelize" -- except by example. I'm not trying to sell the church I go to -- this is just background for the following statement: Considering the political activites and self-righteous pronouncements of some very loud people in this country who call themselves "Christians," it sometimes embarrasses me to call myself a Christian. People forget -- people who regard themselves as religious forget -- that religion is about spirituality. It is not about secular power. And anyone, for whatever reason, who destroys books, art, and artifacts is committing a crime against humanity. No matter what reasons they can come up with for what they do, I don't think that God or Allah or whatever anyone wants to call Him/Her likes that very much. Don Firth |
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04 Mar 01 - 06:48 PM (#410875) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Greg F. Good on you, John! Well said. Best, Greg |
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04 Mar 01 - 06:51 PM (#410876) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Greg F. RATS! No idea what key I hit to produce all that, but apologies to all. Sorry! I got 'em, Greg. I think the reason that sort of thing happens is "just because." --JoeClone |
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04 Mar 01 - 06:55 PM (#410879) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: paddymac The kind of fanatical fundamentalism considered here seems to me to reflect the problem Joseph Campbell termed the "concretization of myth", or myths, particularly in the religious realm, considered as absolute fact. The grave danger of that phenomenon is that it creates blind followers in lieu of sentient beings willing and able to think for themselves. But then, that's most likely the purpose behind the concretization in the first place. |
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04 Mar 01 - 07:54 PM (#410902) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: wysiwyg Don't you see that when you use your upset with one group to point fingers at that group, or as an example to describe your upset with any other group, you are part of the hate and not part of the healing? Don't you see that to link hurtful behaviors with religion at all is to make the same error in thinking that is behind the wrong behavior? Don't you see how having the "face of God" pasted onto any conflict's banner makes enough people nuts that no one can act effectively to stop the wrongdoing? Don't you see that the "face of God" is simply being co-opted by people who long for power, and will use any tool or weapon at their disposal to gain it? And don't you see how buying into the paradigm-- even enough to criticize it-- divides up people who would otherwise join together to end wrongdoing? Don't you see that each time we rattle the sabers against anyone, we make it harder for us all to join together on the next, and next, and next thing that must be faced together? How many Mudcat divisions do we already have, within the broken relationships that weave under and through this thread, that seem more important on a daily basis than finding what can be agreed and acted upon? If people who love music cannot find a way to get along, how can you expect the world to do any better than we ourselves do? ~S~ |
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04 Mar 01 - 08:19 PM (#410912) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: McGrath of Harlow WYSIWYG is right there - this isn't about religion, it's about fanaticiam and about power.
It isn't just followers of religions thta can get knotted up in this kid of insanity. It's been done often enough in the name of atheism/secularism, any -ism you like. Definitely including capitalism (if there's money to be made by destroying things of beauty, see them fighting to be first in line with the wrecking crane). |
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04 Mar 01 - 08:24 PM (#410915) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: McGrath of Harlow Or the oil drilling rig of course. |
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04 Mar 01 - 08:28 PM (#410917) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: GUEST,Cedric "Don't you see that when you use your upset with one group to point fingers at that group, or as an example to describe your upset with any other group, you are part of the hate and not part of the healing?" Which do you prefer WYSinskcoweifoEOFI? "YOU'RE HITTING ME AND yOU CALL YOURSELF cHRISTIAN AND i HATE YOU and all Christians." or "You're hitting me and calling yourself Christian, I don't like you hitting me." "Don't you see that to link hurtful behaviors with religion at all is to make the same error in thinking that is behind the wrong behavior?" You cannot fix the misappropriation of religious teaching without clearly naming it "misappropriation". The distinction needs to be made. Uncomfortable things need to be faced, even the discomfort of having your religion discounted and badmouthed by many because of the example of others. As has been stated atrocities have been and are committed in the name of religion. Don't you see that hectoring people to stop mentioning religion at the same time as the acts that are committed in its name is to muzzle all effective discussion? |
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04 Mar 01 - 09:24 PM (#410934) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Sorcha OK, so maybe here in the US we can destroy all religious artifacts because we have Religious Freedom " garunteed" in the Constitution? And, we also have the Seperation of Church and State............should we destroy all "icons" of faith?
No more crosses in front of churches, no more Mogen Doveds on wine bottles, ABSOLUTELY NO MORE Nativity scenes in December.........and we must smash and destroy any prior evidence in the Western World.......such as the Chalice of Armagh, all the "High Crosses", all the Spirit Gates to Chinese restaurants.........
I can't imagine a culture without Icons........be they Bhuddas, Crosses, Golden Arches, or whatever. We are not talking Religion here, but History and Culture........I, for one, cannot imagine a world without the Great Bhudda,Jesus, Mohammed, Isis, etc. Taliban wants to be the only identity in their world, and "Mother" Nature is just not going to allow that. Sorry, but she isn't. "She" is already kicking up a fuss about HIV/AIDS and other stuff.......including foot and mouth disease. |
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04 Mar 01 - 10:09 PM (#410949) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: wdyat12 Let's condone the destruction of all civilization as long as we are feeling so self-righteous. It ain't the child we hate, it's the child's behavior. So, how should we react? wdyat12 |
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04 Mar 01 - 10:17 PM (#410952) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Bill D our human history includes many temples, images, icons, churches, monuments...and books and songs--and history also includes countless attempts to destroy the symbols of one group for the (supposed) glory of another. We rightfully decry the Taliban's assult on those statues, just as we abhor the desecration of Mosques or of synagogues....major artifacts of the past help us to understand what we are today!....but we still judge symbols. For instance, in the US, the Confederate flag is severely limited in what it can be used to promote, and has just about been bannned from most state flags and schools. We DO differentiate between banning symbols that are used to promote hate and division (swastikas) and those that are simply another's revered past....but I know many southerners in the US would claim that the Confederate flag is only a 'part of their history'. I wonder if the Taliban has any notion of the difference? Or if they care?
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04 Mar 01 - 10:26 PM (#410957) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: wdyat12 Good points Bill. wdyat12 |
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04 Mar 01 - 11:35 PM (#410978) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Little Hawk Well, it is always disturbing to see people giving over their own powers of thought and decision to some bunch of words written down in a religious book, a political manifesto, or a constitution...as if that will solve all their problems. On top of that, they frequently haven't even read the document with much attention (if at all), but simply let their "leaders" tell them what it purportedly says. So, don't follow leaders. Figure it out for yourself. No matter what the Taliban destroy in the physical realm, they cannot destroy what inspired it, and they will be gone one day, but what inspired it will remain. This world, in the terms of Buddhism, is a world of illusion anyway. The Taliban are taking the illusion way too seriously, I believe. They're not alone in that. Like the rest of you, I am very unhappy to hear of this destruction of religious objects, so don't get me wrong. I'm just looking at it from another angle, as Buddha might have. Spirit has a lot of time at its disposal, and a great deal of compassion. Things like this have happened before, and no doubt will again. They are the crazy moments in the grand flow of evolution on this planet, and they are the exception, fortunately, not the rule. Blessed are the peacemakers. - LH |
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05 Mar 01 - 12:12 AM (#410994) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Sorcha Little Hawk, that is very true, and Bhudda, being the Bhudda, wouldn't care an iota if the statues were being desroyed, as long as people remembered the Path.
Bill D, I was born and raised in "Bloody Kansas", and have always had some sympathy for the South, primarily because of the States Rights issues......not because of Slavery. Just Bloody Independent I am...... In 1967, my sophmore year in High School, I wrote an essay on Why the South Should Have Won The Civil War.......Teach was forced to give me an A (94%) on the paper, but I still failed the course.......my only F in High School, all because he was a bigot. And the Confederacy's supply lines......ah well. |
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05 Mar 01 - 12:26 AM (#411003) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Tom D. Impermanence is one of the "three marks" of all compounded existence, according to the oldest complete recension of the Buddha's teachings (i.e., the Pali Canon). That impermanence would extend to both the statues and their desecrators. Be well, Tom D. |
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05 Mar 01 - 12:32 AM (#411008) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: katlaughing Thank you, Tom D. So it's the ol' bless and release them on their way...all of them, including the Taliban. kat |
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05 Mar 01 - 12:39 AM (#411010) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: katlaughing We are always going to have debates on here and differences of opinion. Different voices will express themselves in what may be distasteful or offensive ways. Some people will agree and others disagree. If we cannot freely express our views/feelings about the past and the perpetrators of atrocities, no matter who they were, we are effectively stifling any learning process which may come about. Each of us learns at our own pace. To castigate anyone for not comforming to one person's idea of the way it should be, serves no purpose but to discourage more communication. kat
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05 Mar 01 - 12:43 AM (#411013) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Lepus Rex The destruction of the statues is the fault of "the West." By isolating the Taleban, who at this point (unfortunately) really are the proper, rightful rulers of Afghanistan, "the West" has blown any chance it has to negotiate with them. "Oh, please, don't destroy these wonderful statues, you fucking backward terrorist camel jockies!" Yeah, that'll work. They've been threatening to destroy these items for years, but until now, haven't. Take the actual destruction as a sign that the sanctions, insults, bombings, and threats aren't working, but only re-inforcing the radical quasi-Islamic beliefs of the Taleban and their supporters. And one other thing about Afghanistan... So fucking what if some women have to wear funny hats and can't go to work? What a waste of time to worry about inconveniences like that when the Hazara and other minorities are being slaughtered like sheep. So, sorry, Afghan women. Life just sucks. Get used to it, and be glad you're not rotting in a mass grave. And to rube1, yes, there are "threats of that sort emanating from...Christian religions." All around the world, Christian missionaries are taking part in the destruction of indigenous cultures, as well as non-Christian religions. Jews, pagans, Hindus, Buddhists, and pretty much all other non-Christian groups are targets for missionary faith-bribes and propaganda. Cultures thousands of years older than the Christian faiths are constantly being weakened and perverted by Christian missionaries. I think that qualifies as a "threat." Kick a missionary's ass today. :) Ah, and, like, no offense, everyone... ---Lepus Rex |
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05 Mar 01 - 12:46 AM (#411015) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Tom D. If I am not mistaken, in addition to teaching about the impermanence of things, there was also some stuff in there about the law of karma. To be sure, there were differences of opinion about how the deeds done in one life come to fruition in the next one, especially in light of the other bedrock teaching that there is no enduring self entity, such as Atman of the Upanishads. However, the view that one reaps what one sows is pretty basic to the faith. Hence, it not for any of us to either bless or release the Taliban or anyone else. It is, reportedly, going to be taken care of in the larger scheme of things. Be well, Tom D. |
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05 Mar 01 - 01:06 AM (#411018) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: katlaughing Too true, Tom, as I do believe in karma. However, for me to feel healthy about it in my heart, I must bless and release them to their highest good, which, of course, will, imo, include karmic retribution or not. When I say "bless them" I don't mean that I, pesonally, have any power to bless them. I just mean that I am asking that they be blessed etc. Lepus Rex? That doesn't sound like you, re' the women in Afghanistan. I hope you are just being sarcastic. What is done to all women there goes far beyond wearing funny hats and not working. In case you don't know or remember some of the discussions we've had on it, please click here for an accounting in their own words. Thank you, kat |
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05 Mar 01 - 05:09 AM (#411046) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Dave the Gnome I also wholeheartedly disagree with the destruction of these historic items. It makes it all the worse when you realise that Bhuddism, as far as I know, is the only major religion in the world never to have a war fought or persecution generated in its name. Couple of other points I would like to make. To whoever said it is 2001 - It aint necessarily so! That is the Christian timeline. In terms of Islam we are still in the 14th century (Islam year 0 was Christian year 622AD I think). The Christian (Catholic) inquisitions started in the 13th century and were only officialy ended in the 19th! The Spanish inquisition that we all talk of started in 1478. The Taliban, and all Muslims, are not up to there yet so things could get worse yet if they mirror Christian history. Another very interesting item came up when I was searching for this information - In his final sermon Muhammad summarised the heart of Islam:
Belief in One God without images or symbols; I find all the points excelent, relevant today and useable in many walks of life. 1 and 3 are particularly relevant to this discussion though and wonder how the two are reconciled in Afganistan. Perhaps their Mullahs got bored after point 1...? Again, perhaps all these teachings should be displayed prominently in Churches, Synaqogues and Temples of all faiths but points 3 and 5 should be carved in letters 10 feet tall on the walls of all Mosques in Kabul! Good will to people of all faiths and, as Dave Allen used to say, may your God go with you. Dave the Gnome
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05 Mar 01 - 06:45 AM (#411053) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Wolfgang A barbarian act it is. Sad to say it is by far not the frist such act in history and I fear not the last as well. The word for it comes from Christian history: iconoclasm. When the Christian missionaries came to what now is Germany, they were proud to cut down the holy oaks of the Saxons and to destroy their places of worship.
And let's not forget Book of Numbers, Chapter 33, verses 50-53: Wolfgang |
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05 Mar 01 - 08:34 AM (#411066) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Peter T. For the historical record, Buddhists have been involved in a variety of national wars, including the Sinhalese (Ceylon, Sri Lanka)nationalist cause -- due to some misunderstood early texts. They are currently involved in the civil war in Sri Lanka, where some of them have not exactly covered themselves in glory. The role of Buddhists in the Japanese conflicts of the 2oth century is still understudied. But generally their hands are pretty clean: more victims than persecutors. The Taliban are following alas in the footsteps of the Islamic purges of Buddhism in India in the Middle Ages when hundreds of thousands of Buddhists were killed, the universities destroyed, and the teachers had to flee into Tibet. The current situation brings back bad memories of that history too. yours, Peter T. |
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05 Mar 01 - 08:49 AM (#411072) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: GUEST,Matt_R In an Indian Art History class, I've seen countless images of the Bhudda in a war chariot, surrounded by heavy cavalry, and with a servant holding a parasol over his head. Well, actually, I didn't SEE the Bhudda, since at that particular time period, he was not shown in an earthly form, so he is invisible. So was he going to war, or just on a crusade to bring enlightenment? Either way, if he tried it today, looks like he'd get dissed. |
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05 Mar 01 - 09:05 AM (#411077) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Peter T. I confess that I have never seen images like that -- they are usually of the warchariots of Vishnu or Krishna (one problem is that when the Hindus took over Buddhist images they began to treat the Buddha as an avatar of Vishnu) -- but if they do exist from the earliest period I would assume that they are likely to be the Buddha attacking underworld demons. I wouldn't mind a reference if you can find one -- I always like disconcerting my Buddhist colleagues who are always going on about how pure and gentle we have always been. Hah. yours, Peter T. |
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05 Mar 01 - 09:05 AM (#411078) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Margaret V I just read the sad news about the stampede which left 35 people dead during the Islamic "stoning of Satan" ritual. Can anyone help me understand the role of the pillars in this ritual? Aren't they being used emblematically, and therefore a sort of icon? I realize the pillar is not a depiction per se of Satan, rather it is an abstraction, but doesn't the human mind in most cases move very quickly from abstraction to imposed image? How would these pillars fit into the scheme of injunctions against images? Thanks. Margaret |
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05 Mar 01 - 09:23 AM (#411085) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Lepus Rex Before I start, I just want to say this: I HATE THE "CLEAR ENTRIES" BUTTON. IT MUST BE DESTROYED. Ok... I'm not typing all that over again. Here's my Reader's Digest Condensed Entry. (DIE, "CLEAR ENTRIES" BUTTON, DIE.) Kat, I was being both sarcastic and serious. I agree with you that the lives of women in Taleban-controlled Afghanistan are difficult and unfair, but they are mere inconveniences in comparison with the conditions experienced by non-Pashtun Afghans of both sexes. Yeah, they can't go out without a male relative, and they can't wear nice shoes or practice prostitution. But I can't see why that is the issue that you, and most Americans, focus on, when hundreds of thousands have been killed or displaced for the sin of not being Sunni Pashtun hillbillies. They aren't uncovering mass graves filled with the bodies of Pashtun women, are they? And actually, the Taleban have improved things considerably for women since they took power, a fact that even the RAWA admits. It could be, and was, much, much worse than it is now. The only way to change things in Afghanistan is to remove the sanctions (current Islamic scapegoat Osama bin Laden isn't worth it) and help rebuild the country. Or we can continue with the sanctions, and let the people suffer. But that's not good for women. ;) ---Lepus Rex, flipping off the "Clear Entries" button as he exits. |
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05 Mar 01 - 09:57 AM (#411093) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: katlaughing Lepus Rex, please include a link to more info, or add more info on non-Pashtun Afghans. I am interested in learning more. I still think the situation for any woman in Afghanistan, and their male supporters is much, much worse than you are making it out to be. Consider, please: 1- Complete ban on women's work outside the home, which also applies to female teachers, engineers and most professionals. Only a few female doctors and nurses are allowed to work in some hospitals in Kabul. 2- Complete ban on women's activity outside the home unless accompanied by a mahram (close male relative such as a father, brother or husband). 3- Ban on women dealing with male shopkeepers. 4- Ban on women being treated by male doctors. 5- Ban on women studying at schools, universities or any other educational institution. (Taliban have converted girls' schools into religious seminaries.) 6- Requirement that women wear a long veil (Burqa), which covers them from head to toe. 7- Whipping, beating and verbal abuse of women not clothed in accordance with Taliban rules, or of women unaccompanied by a mahram. 8- Whipping of women in public for having non-covered ankles. 9- Public stoning of women accused of having sex outside marriage. (A number of lovers are stoned to death under this rule). 10- Ban on the use of cosmetics. (Many women with painted nails have had fingers cut off). 11- Ban on women talking or shaking hands with non-mahram males. 12- Ban on women laughing loudly. (No stranger should hear a woman's voice). 13- Ban on women wearing high heel shoes, which would produce sound while walking. (A man must not hear a woman's footsteps.) 14- Ban on women riding in a taxi without a mahram. 15- Ban on women's presence in radio, television or public gatherings of any kind. 16- Ban on women playing sports or entering a sport center or club. 17- Ban on women riding bicycles or motorcycles, even with their mahrams. 18- Ban on women's wearing brightly colored clothes. In Taliban terms, these are "sexually attracting colors." 19- Ban on women gathering for festive occasions such as the Eids, or for any recreational purpose. 20- Ban on women washing clothes next to rivers or in a public place. 21- Modification of all place names including the word "women." For example, "women's garden" has been renamed "spring garden". 22- Ban on women appearing on the balconies of their apartments or houses. 23- Compulsory painting of all windows, so women can not be seen from outside their homes. 24- Ban on male tailors taking women's measurements or sewing women's clothes. 25- Ban on female public baths. 26- Ban on males and females traveling on the same bus. Public buses have now been designated "males only" (or "females only"). 27- Ban on flared (wide) pant-legs, even under a burqa. 28- Ban on the photographing or filming of women. 29- Ban on women's pictures printed in newspapers and books, or hung on the walls of houses and shops. Apart from the above restrictions on women, the Taliban has: - Banned listening to music, not only for women but men as well. - Banned the watching of movies, television and videos, for everyone. - Banned celebrating the traditional new year (Nowroz) on March 21. The Taliban has proclaimed the holiday un-Islamic. - Disavowed Labor Day (May 1st), because it is deemed a "communist" holiday. - Ordered that all people with non-Islamic names change them to Islamic ones. - Forced haircuts upon Afghan youth. - Ordered all People to choose Islamic names for them if their names are not Islamic . - Ordered that men wear Islamic clothes and a cap. - Ordered that men not shave or trim their beards, which should grow long enough to protrude from a fist clasped at the point of the chin. - Ordered that all people attend prayers in mosques five times daily. - Banned the keeping of pigeons and playing with the birds, describing it as un-Islamic. The violators will be imprisoned and the birds shall be killed. The kite flying has also been stopped. - Ordered all onlookers, while encouraging the sportsmen, to chant Allah-o-Akbar (God is great) and refrain from clapping. - Ban on certain games including kite flying which is "un-Islamic" according to Taliban.
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05 Mar 01 - 10:04 AM (#411097) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: GUEST,Matt_R Peter, I'm not sure from what book our teacher got the slides... |
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05 Mar 01 - 11:20 AM (#411132) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Little Hawk Matt - I suspect that the images had more to do with "spiritual warfare" (meaning the war that occurs inside a person's own breast when trying to reach a decision or make a change in some way). I may be wrong, but I suspect those pictures were allegorical. My impression is that all the great religious teachings are meant to be acted out more within a human being than on the outer field of battle, so to speak, but people are literal-minded, so they usually focus it outward instead. Lepus - You are probably correct that actions taken to isolate that country have had only tragic results. That is usually the case with such actions. - LH |
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05 Mar 01 - 11:42 AM (#411154) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Lepus Rex Kat, I'd still call most of those things inconveniences. And all of the ones that can result in violence are completely avoidable. Completely unfair, but avoidable. If she doesn't break those laws, she won't get in trouble. If she doesn't like it, get a gun and join the opposition. The whining of the West can't change a thing for her. Some links... First, a disclaimer: Some of these sites may be full of shit. Use your own judgement. ;) Hazara.net Info about the persecution of the Hazara people. Links to other Hazara sites. . Hazaragi Magazine. Another Hazara site. With music. :) Hazara Online, yet another Hazara site. Amnesty International's Afghanistan documents (should work) UNHCR's Afghanistan page. Short article on the Taleban's pro-Pashtun policies... That's all for now... Also, some news about the statues from UNESCO : "ALL DOORS ARE NOT CLOSED" ACCORDING TO UNESCO SPECIAL ENVOY TO AFGHANISTAN Paris, March 5 (No.2001-33) - Pierre Lafrance, UNESCO's special envoy to Afghanistan, has left Kandahar, the main residence of Taliban leader Mullah Mohammad Omar, for Islamabad (Pakistan), but will return to Afghanistan after the Id al-Adha holiday. After talks with, among others, the Taliban Minister for Foreign Affairs, Mullah Wakil Ahmad Muttawakil, Mr Lafrance indicated that there was still hope that the Buddha statues at Bamiyan might be saved. "All doors are not closed. Contacts are continuing and new consultations are taking place among theologians in Afghanistan," Mr Lafrance declared, confirming, however, that the Taliban have destroyed small statues in the museums of the towns of Ghazni, Jalalabad and Herat. UNESCO's special envoy will be returning to Kandahar on Wednesday or Thursday and will pursue his efforts from Islamabad until then. UNESCO Director-General Koichiro Matsuura, meanwhile, is continuing his efforts to mobilize all communities, particularly the political and religious communities, which might be able to influence the Taliban. Already on Friday, the Group of Arab UNESCO Member States issued a communiqu‚ calling for "an international mobilization with concrete actions, to end this unprecedented undertaking which affects invaluable universal heritage treasures." Other voices have been raised against the Taliban's decision to destroy pre-Islamic statues. Two important Islamic religious authorities have, moreover, already expressed points of view contrary to that of the Afghan Taliban. The religious leader of Doha (Qatar), Sheikh Yusuf Kardawi declared: "The statues made by the ancients before Islam are part of a historic heritage. When the Muslims entered Afghanistan, in the first century of the Hegira [the Moslem era], the statues were already there and they did not destroy them. I advise our brethren of the Taliban movement to reconsider their decision in view of its danger and negative impact." Sabri Abdel-Raouf, the Head of the Department of Islamic Studies at the University of Al-Azhar (Cairo, Egypt) said: "Statues made to be worshiped can be destroyed as being opposed to Islam, but statues which are not worshiped are not forbidden." UNESCO has announced the creation of a special bank account for the cultural heritage of Afghanistan (No. 406 AFG 30). It will be used for emergency funding of any measure that may allow for the safeguarding of Afghanistan's pre-Islamic heritage and, in the long term, for the preservation of the country's heritage, both pre-Islamic and Islamic. UNESCO has also launched an international petition for the Afghan heritage. ---Lepus Rex (please, please don't hit that "Clear Entries" button by mistake...) |
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05 Mar 01 - 12:00 PM (#411186) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: katlaughing LR, thanks very much for the links. I will take a look at them. The last I'd read they had already destroyed the statues, but that was based solely on Taliban reports, no eyewitnessing, so I am delighted to hear that they may still be intact. (I wonder if LaFrance is a relative of my SO...same last name.:-) Sorry, LR, I guess we will have to agree to disagree. I do not consider the sanctions against women as just inconveniences. It is not inconvenient to be unable to have any kind of medical treatment based on examination of your own body rather than that of your male relative who doesn't even have the same parts. It is not a minor inconvenience to be excluded from any outlets for education. With the next generation of Afghan women they will have totally wiped out entire generations of knowledge, industry, etc. It is not an inconveniece for a whole gender to be oppressed. I also do not think it would be that easy for many of them to "get a gun and join the opposition." Please do not trivialise what these women go through. Granted sanctions may not be helping, but as long as the women ask for our voices and our assistance, as individuals, I cannot be silent. kat...hey, you are doing good on those Clear Entries the past few! |
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05 Mar 01 - 12:07 PM (#411193) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Lepus Rex Kat, I wasn't trying to trivialise their situation, but to draw attention to what I believe to be a more urgent matter. I dunno... Maybe I just started off a little negative because of the thread title: "Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha." Had it been named "Thought for the day Mar 3-Rubble gained," things might have been much different. ;) ---Lepus Rex
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05 Mar 01 - 12:09 PM (#411196) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: mousethief Boy, and we thought these guys were creeps and idiots BEFORE. Just another indication of what can happen when religion and government are not separated, and religious fundamentalists gain power. Ever read "The Handmaid's Tale"? Let us pray SOMETHING can be done to preserve the many cultural artefacts that exist in Afghanistan and which are under danger of destruction by these extremists -- the giant Buddhas and other "public" art, as well as the things in museums, churches, or whatever. Lord, what fools these mortals be! |
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05 Mar 01 - 12:16 PM (#411200) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Lepus Rex Well, I was thinking... The Kabul Museum was looted repeatedly in the 90s. Some of the finest pieces were shipped off for sale. Maybe that was a good thing, considering the current situation. ---Lepus Rex |
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05 Mar 01 - 12:20 PM (#411202) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Fiolar McGrath mentioned about the destruction of statues and other religious items in the 16th and 17th centuries. In Suffolk for example there was the home grown bigot William Dowsing who in Suffolk alone "purged" over 150 churches of stained glass, brasses paintings and other items. The book by Roy Strong - "Lost Treasures of Britain" is a poignant description of what was destroyed for ever. No doubt some time in the future some more tolerant scholar than at present exists will be writing a similar work dealing with Afghanistan. The destruction doesn't really serve any purpose other than a mindless reaction like some spoiled kid who decides to take his ball away so that other kids can't have it. |
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05 Mar 01 - 12:31 PM (#411213) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: mousethief Remember when we were all hot under the collar because the Soviet Union had no right being in Afghanistan? If only they had kept it.
ducking for cover, |
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05 Mar 01 - 12:41 PM (#411224) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: wysiwyg I've always looked forward to threads labeled "Thought for the Day" as an opportunity to rest my mind on something lovely, something sweet, something higher than the usual run of human un-thought that is available nearly everywhere else. Threads like that have often strengthened me in my effort to use all the love and skill I can, to do something that "needs done," as we say here in these parts. ~S~ |
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05 Mar 01 - 01:06 PM (#411241) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Don Firth To a point, I agree with Lepus Rex regarding the policy of sanctions. If it is indeed effective, the effects all seem to be negative. It cuts off any meaningful communication and it tends to cement an adversarial relationship. There are better ways to go about this, and it starts with keeping lines of communication open. However:-- I guess there are degrees of "inconvenience." I think I've got it now . . . What is happening to women in Afghanistan could be classed as a minor inconvenience. What happened to Jews under the Nazi regime was a major inconvenience. Glad we got that cleared up. . . . Don Firth |
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05 Mar 01 - 02:53 PM (#411348) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: katlaughing Wow, not sure if I am reading you right or not, Don. I am amazed if you truly mean that regarding the women in Afghanistan. Imagine if men were treated that way...I doubt they would consider it a minor inconvenience. There are men who are being oppressed almost as much as the women in Afghanistan. Many, many Afghans have lost their lives, disappeared, etc. It may not be on the same scale as the nazis, but it is the same ilk who are carrying it out. BTW, if they are so minor, does that mean we should be silent as the US and other countries were when they didn't believe the reports of Jews being massacred? Lepus Rex, thanks, again, for your further elucidation. next time I will try to be more *creative* in my thread naming.:-) kat |
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05 Mar 01 - 03:33 PM (#411383) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Don Firth Kat, what I said was pure sarcasm. To regard any kind of repression as an "inconvenience," I think, fails to grasp the reality of the situation. What happened to Jews and others under the Third Reich was an atrocity of the most egregious kind. The condition of women in Afganistan and (I'll risk the wrath of Allah, or at least His followers here) in other Muslim dominated regimes is also an atrocity. It is not quite of the magnitude of the Holocaust, in that women are not being murdered wholesale, but it is an abomination nonetheless. I found the serious use of the word "inconvenience," in reference to the situation of Muslim women, particulary in Afganistan, rather disturbing. I was giving Lepus Rex a dope-slap. Sorry, LR, but that's my position. Don Firth |
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05 Mar 01 - 04:42 PM (#411447) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: katlaughing Thanks, Don, for clearing that up. I didn't think it sounded like you, from what I've seen of your postings in other threads, esp. the Walt Robertson thread, but I wasn't sure (despite kudos about you when last I spoke to Sandy Paton!) *sheepish grin* kat |
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05 Mar 01 - 04:44 PM (#411449) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: mousethief Well, *I* read it as sarcasm, Don, so you haven't totally lost your touch. |
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05 Mar 01 - 04:53 PM (#411460) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: katlaughing Tsk! **BG** |
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05 Mar 01 - 05:01 PM (#411469) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: mousethief I know it's hard to have a perfect sense of humor on something you're worked up about, Kat. Nobody is blaming you, just because you missed the side of the barn from five feet with a blunderbuss. Hehehehehehe. |
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05 Mar 01 - 07:18 PM (#411562) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: katlaughing Oh my ardency and passion have made me too fervent, eh? *BG* Gotta work on getting my balance back! |
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05 Mar 01 - 07:47 PM (#411575) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Don Firth S'okay, Kat. If you don't get worked up about some things that are going on in the world, they gotta check to make sure you're still breathing. Blessings! You're alive! Don Firth
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05 Mar 01 - 08:16 PM (#411600) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Lepus Rex Well, Don, much of what the Taleban are enforcing isn't Islamic law, it's tribal Pashtun law. Sure, the Taleban call it Islamic, just like female circumcisers in Africa call their actions Islamic. But in both cases, it's just tribal customs playing Muslim. Don't believe everything you read in USA Today, man. Ah, and what I said was: "the lives of women in Taleban-controlled Afghanistan are difficult and unfair, but they are mere inconveniences in comparison with the conditions experienced by non-Pashtun Afghans of both sexes." That's not true? These restrictions are as bad as death? And almost as bad as being gassed in a Nazi death-camp? I'd bet that some Uzbek man, now rotting with a bullet in his skull in a shallow grave outside Mazar-e-Sharif, would GLADLY trade in his fate for the chance to live the difficult, inconvenient life of an Afghan woman. It cheapens the sacrifices of the dead to compare the two. :) ---Lepus Rex |
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05 Mar 01 - 08:28 PM (#411609) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: McGrath of Harlow (I'll risk the wrath of Allah, or at least His followers here) in other Muslim dominated regimes is also an atrocity.
Allah is just the Arabic way of saying God. One God, the same God Christians and Jews worship, so presumably "His followers" means any Christians or Jews on the Mudcat, as well as Muslims.
Using it the way you did in that sentence there, Don, came across as intentionally insulting and provocative.
I trust "in other Muslim dominated regimes" includes an implied "some". At this point in history it's probably true to say that "Muslim dominated regimes" are on the whole less open than "Christian dominated regimes" - but that's a historical accident, linked to historical causes like colonialism and exploitation and cultural imperialism. (For eaxample, the Taliban are the children of what the Cold War did to Afghanistan.)
For many periods in history precisely the opposite generalisation would be true, with a better chance of finding a relatively open and free society in Muslim countries than in many Christian countries. |
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05 Mar 01 - 08:48 PM (#411626) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: mousethief Those who do not remember history are condemned to repeat it -- at least if they want credit for the class. |
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05 Mar 01 - 09:43 PM (#411658) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Don Firth I'm not going to get into an argument over this, but I get the feeling that what I have written is being misinterpreted. LR, I don't read USA Today. I have a pretty clear idea of what's going on in the world and I trivialize nothing. What set my teeth on edge was the use of the word "inconvenience" and I was reacting to that. There are various degrees of abomination, but I wouldn't characterize any of them as "inconveniences." I think that trivializes them. And McGrath, I intended to insult and provoke no one. Allah, God, Yahweh, whatever name you wish to use, I am fully aware that they all refer to the same. I was referring to this specific situation, and if someone feels insulted and provoked because of my objections to the way women are currently being treated in many parts of the world, and have been for centuries, by Muslim, Christian, or whatever, then so be it! I'll take the hit. Don Firth |
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05 Mar 01 - 09:49 PM (#411666) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: mousethief "Allah" does indeed translate "God" (just as "El" or "Elohim" from Hebrew). This doesn't mean any two religions that use the term "God" for their deity are worshipping the same one -- if their descriptions about the nature of their gods are different enough, it is insulting to both to claim they are worshipping the same one. IMHO, anyway. ALex |
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05 Mar 01 - 10:14 PM (#411688) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Matt_R Affirmative may be justified Take from one give to another The goal is to be unified Take my hand be my brother The payment silenced the masses Sanctified by oppression Unity took a back seat Sliding further in regression One One The only way is One I feel angry I feel helpless I want to change the world I feel violent I feel alone Don't try and change my mind Society blind by color Why hold down one to raise another? Discrimination now on both sides Seeds of hate blossom further The world is heading for mutiny When all we want is unity We may rise and fall but in the end We meet our fate together
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05 Mar 01 - 10:49 PM (#411722) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: katlaughing Matt, who is that by? Very moving, thanks for posting it. |
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05 Mar 01 - 10:58 PM (#411725) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Matt_R Thanks Kat, it's "One", by Creed (of "Arms Wide Open" fame). It was a number one song back in '99. |
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06 Mar 01 - 12:40 AM (#411790) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: katlaughing I remember Arms Wide Open, beautiful song. I will have to listen for One, also. Thanks, again. |
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06 Mar 01 - 04:00 AM (#411833) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: JenEllen First thought, rage. What unmittigated gall to destroy someone's work of beauty? Second thought, my own lil'buddhahood is glad the firepower was directed at stone for once and not at a person. ~JenElle |
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06 Mar 01 - 04:09 AM (#411835) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: GUEST,kathmandoobiedoo This is truly sad. I had not heard of it over here in kathmandu, but I have copied this entire thread section and will read at my leasure. I don't get on line much, but if there are mudcat buddhists or otherwise folky types who are interested in nepal then you can write me at info@nepalmandala.com namaste Willow |
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06 Mar 01 - 06:09 AM (#411859) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: McGrath of Harlow If their descriptions about the nature of their gods are different enough, it is insulting to both to claim they are worshipping the same one. So far as I'm aware neither Mohammed nor his followers have ever for a moment suggested that Allah is "not the same" deity as worshipped by Jews or Christians. To suggest anything like that would in fact be inconsistent with the reiterated profession that "there is only one God".
Essentially these are variations on the same religion, especially Judaism and Islam. All three have holy books and all kinds of other things in common. Including at times some things that aren't too nice. |
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06 Mar 01 - 06:19 AM (#411866) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Wolfgang Deuteronomy Chapter 7, 5: But thus shall ye deal with them; ye shall destroy their altars, and break down their images, and cut down their groves, and burn their graven images with fire. Same sad story all over again. Wolfgang
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06 Mar 01 - 06:39 AM (#411871) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler Distressing though cultural vandalism may be, it is, and has always been, widespread: in UK under Henry VIII and again under Oliver Cromwell "graven images" were destroyed in churches. Classical statues and Oceanic images were mutilated and destroyed in the name of morality and Christianity, statues of unpopular politicians are usually destroyed in revolutions. I like to think a mature society is one that can continue to display the artifacts of its past, whether those conform to current prejudices or not. RtS |
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07 Mar 01 - 07:16 AM (#412645) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Skeptic Guest Roger, I like to think a mature society is one that can continue to display the artifacts of its past, whether those conform to current prejudices or not. Maybe one day there'll actually be one, ya think? Regards John |
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07 Mar 01 - 07:46 AM (#412654) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: katlaughing To katmandoobiedoo, thanks very much for your posting. That website looks very interesting. Namaste, kat |
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07 Mar 01 - 01:34 PM (#412887) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: McGrath of Harlow There's a quote from Chesterton that's apt, as there so often is, from The Ballad of the White Horse. Alfred is reproaching the Danish King for neglecting to look after the White Horse, cut in the chalk hillside long long before their time:
Therefore your end is on you,
Unfortunately it has not been consistently true that "Christian men Guard even heathen things". And fortunately "only" is less than just to many other people. But the principle is right. True religion involves respect to other people and to their works. |
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07 Mar 01 - 02:10 PM (#412915) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Don Firth The Aztecs were a pretty bloody culture when it came to things like human sacrifice, but archeologists have determined that they had a very high level of scientific development in such things as astronomy, calendars, herbal medicines, and . . . what else? We'll never know! They left plenty of books or scrolls, but none of them survived. The clergy, who followed in Cortez's footsteps, burned them all. They were the works of heathens! So they obliterated an entire culture. Same with Pizarro and the Incas. One wonders what the world lost. . . . Don Firth |
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07 Mar 01 - 02:33 PM (#412918) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Metchosin Maybe some small glimmer of hope, the CBC radio reported last night that a group of 23 or so Islamic religous scholars had got together and have approached the Taleban and as a result the shelling had stopped and was on hold and that only 25% of the statues have been destroyed so far. What will happen now remains to be seen. |
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15 Sep 01 - 01:36 AM (#550620) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: harpgirl ...religious freedom is one of our differences... |
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15 Sep 01 - 11:54 PM (#551252) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Paul from Hull Interesting thread |
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16 Sep 01 - 12:56 PM (#551630) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: Art Thieme My favorite definition of POWER has always been------the degree to which you can inconvenience others. All of these rules are affronts against everyone on the planet. All one need do is to apply the pleasure principle or even the goden rule to recognize the truths of the situations. Art Thieme |
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22 Mar 07 - 12:34 PM (#2004140) Subject: RE: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha From: katlaughing I don't know how I missed this three years ago, but last night we watched a docu on PBS about the Lost Treasures of Afghanistan by the National Geographic. Yes, we lost the Buddhas, BUT the news of what may be there is very exciting, plus what they've already found. I also was so moved by the artist/doctor who painted over works of art with watercolours to hide the fact that living things were in the pictures, which the Taliban deemed a sin and would destroy. He and the fellows who helped him, very ingeniously, saved over 90 paintings. Anyway, a bright spot in a sad history. kat |