16 Mar 01 - 08:25 AM (#418949) Subject: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: Greg F. Only in New Hampshire: the spirit of William Loeb is alive and well........
"Spanish Civil War Plaque
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16 Mar 01 - 09:17 AM (#418992) Subject: RE: BS: Abraham Lincoln Brigade II From: Amos Guess they have to have something to complain about. The opposition are quite certain that the communist takeover plot is still going on, in search of world domination, and that the "C" word meant the same thing then as it does now. 'Course as far as the Spanish Civil war goes, that means they're on the side of facism, but I guess the F word is more palatable than the C word. It's kinda a Bush vs Gore thing. The fact that the Lincoln Brigade went to war to defend an elected government against a facist one doesn't seem meaningful -- everything shrinks to insignificance the minute the Big C is mentioned. It's almost as though they got off the Time Train in 1955. A |
16 Mar 01 - 09:23 AM (#418996) Subject: RE: BS: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: Greg F. Bless you, JoeClone! [et.al.] :-) |
16 Mar 01 - 09:58 AM (#419020) Subject: RE: BS: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: Kim C I heard about this on NPR the other morning. As far as I know all Americans have the right to support the political party of their choice, whether it be Democrat, Republican, Libertarian or Communist. The reporter talked to an old Brigade member who said, sure, probably some of them were Communists, but our main objective there was to fight fascism. I can understand why some might find such a remembrance questionable; however, like I already said, anybody can be a Communist that wants to. (personally I don't think there are that many who want to anyhow) |
16 Mar 01 - 10:56 AM (#419055) Subject: RE: BS: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: CamiSu Politics in New Hampshire can be just plain strange. Saw a kid in the soccer league stand at attention during the picture taking, blocking several other kids. When he ran to Mom afterwards, I noticed she was wearing a GWBush jacket... My dad, a Republican all his life, found the right wing of NH politics appalling. Nearly made him a Democrat. He lived in NH the last 7 years of his life, and spent LOTS of time there all the time before that. Very regressive taxes as well. The northern part of the state is, if anything, even more conservative. Me? I'm glad I moved to Vermont, after 2 years in NH. We may have our troubles (I see a lot of Take Back Vermont signs around here, but at least we let both sides exist!) CamiSu |
16 Mar 01 - 03:00 PM (#419287) Subject: RE: BS: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: Irish sergeant If I remeber correctly, there were two brigades of U.S. citizens that fought in the Spanish Civil War against Franco. There was the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, mentioned above and the George Washington Brigade. Both numbered considerably more than twelve people. One of the first tactics Sen. Joseph "Tail-gunner Joe" McCarthy used to smear the good name of the men who fought in the brigades was to lable them "Prematurely Anti-Fascist" A lovely little bit of Orwellian word speak used to imply someone was a Communist. The men and women who made up the brigades deseve a monument not only to their bravery and love of freedom but for their forsight in seeing the threat that Germany, Italy and Japans military dictatorships posed in the 1930s As stated above most of these men were not communists or communist sympathisers. They were appalled at the thought of yet another fascist dictatorship on the European mainland. The true tragedy of the Spanish Civil War is that so very many Spaniards had to die so the powers in Europe, notably Germany, Italy and the Soviet Union, could test their weapons systems. And that we would learn this again, as Americans in Souteast Asia. Kindest Reguards, Neil (A stood down cold warrior) |
16 Mar 01 - 03:14 PM (#419296) Subject: RE: BS: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: Greg F. Clarification, Neil: didn't come across in the condensed spiel, but they were referring to the 12 men from New Hampshire that served in the Abe Lincoln Brigade. Them German Weapons worked a treat at Guernica- killed my grandfather's brother & most of the rest of the rest of his family. "Prematurely Anti-Fascist"- Jesus, ya just gotta love them rabid Cold Warriers, dontcha? Best, Greg |
16 Mar 01 - 03:59 PM (#419353) Subject: RE: BS: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: Irish sergeant Hell, it's that whole word speak thing the government (Insert nation, state or locality of choice)is so good at. I hope the Granite State will see its way clear to honor the men like your great uncle for the sacrifices they made for all of our freedom. Kindest reguards, Neil |
16 Mar 01 - 09:15 PM (#419616) Subject: RE: BS: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: northfolk/al cholger Si Kahn did an admirable song, Bleeding Hearts...about a Chrysler worker who went to Spain to fight fascism. One of the big prices that we pay in this world, to this date is that politicians and businesspeople were so busy selling arms and material to Hitler, Mussolini and Franco, that they couldn't allow early anti-fascist intervention in europe...WWII and the holocaust might have never happened. Just heard an author on NPR two days ago, who wrote about IBM's long business flirtation with Hitler. They sold the Punchcard system that Hitler used to coordinate the final solution...ironic how close that is to IBM's "solution". |
17 Mar 01 - 12:17 AM (#419722) Subject: RE: BS: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: Art Thieme Si Kahn did that song you mentioned on my old NPR radio show (The Flea Market--Chicago--early 1980s). He did it because ten minutes earlier I had introduced him to Ed Balchowsky, a veteran of the Lincoln Brigade. Ed was a concert pianist who had lost an arm in a battle near the Ebro River. After surgery, for pain he had been given morphine to which he became addicted. He stayed that way for the next 40 years. Ed would still sing the stirring songs of that war and play the piano with his one hand. (See, also, Utah Phillips fine song about Ed "One Arm On The Ebro".)
There were many more than the mentioned 12 members of the Lincolns. As I recall it, there were 3,200 people who felt strongly enough about stopping Franco and fascism that they went over and fought in that war. Only HALF came back alive. Hitler practiced for World War 2 in Spain supporting Gen. Franco with his Luftwaffe and bombs. It's felt by many (as was said) that he could've been stopped if the USA had gone after him then as in Kuwait recently. There were also volks in Germany fighting in the Spanish Civil War against Franco and their own Hitler. These volunteers made up the International Brigades. Yes, these were leftists and Socialists and Communists and Democrats and just anti-fascists. I'll always be proud to've been a friend of Ed Balchowsky's. Many of todays youth choose to use their limited supply of testosterone shooting their wad into the black hole and sponge-like stock market and gambling industry rather than dedicate their lives to humanity and allied causes.-----Because that choice has been made by them --- to indulge their personal greed rather than nurture their altruistic potentials----we are stuck with the the mentality that prevails in so many parts of today's world. I admired Ed Balchowsky's life-long commitment and I definitely prefer his ism to Donald Trump's. Art Thieme |
17 Mar 01 - 06:53 AM (#419834) Subject: RE: BS: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: paddymac Well said, Art. |
17 Mar 01 - 07:58 AM (#419843) Subject: RE: BS: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: MARINER I have always admired the men of The International Brigade,men who fought for principal, without thought of reward.Surely an alien concept in todays world. As well as the Abe Lincoln Brigade there was an Anglo American Brigade. Does anyone know anything about them??. A family friend was a member(he was Irish)and for a time was commandant.He died at the battle for the fortied town of Quinto. Remember Delores Ibarruri's (La Passionara)words ." You gave your youth or maturity, your science and experience, your blood and your lives for the Spanish people and asked nothing at all". She said " When the years pass by and the wounds of war are healed, and pride in a free country is felt equally by all Spaniards, speak to your children. Tell them of these men of the International Brigade". We should all tell our children and grandchildren of the heroic men of the International Brigade. Mariner |
17 Mar 01 - 12:08 PM (#419947) Subject: RE: BS: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: Amos Some wonderful photos from the actual events can be found here, at the site of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade archives. (http://www.alba-valb.org/albaaura.htm ) A |
17 Mar 01 - 12:33 PM (#419960) Subject: RE: BS: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: Amos The following excerpt is from the May 1, 1938 newsletter called "Volunteer for Liberty", published by the Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade.. It gives a sense of who these people were and what those who survived believed in about the war against Franco. The back issues of this news letter make fascinating reading and can be found here. (...) Spain is a lesson no less for America than for all free and all threatened May Day this year finds 3,200 Americans still carrying on In Spain, It is fitting that we, the Veterans of the Abraham Lincoln Brigade, We have seen with our own eyes the naked horror of fascism. America David McKelvy White |
17 Mar 01 - 12:54 PM (#419971) Subject: RE: BS: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: MARINER Since my last posting I've been rooting through some papers and found that the family friend I mentioned last time, (whose name was Peter Daly)died in Sept. 1937. At the time,I think, he was in charge of an Anglo American Brigade. Was this before the Abe Lincoln Brigade was established ? or was there an Anglo American outfit as well as the other two American brigades?. Has anyone heard Christy Moore's rendition of "Viva la Quinte Brigada". Another different song , in Spanish, with the same title was recorded by the Ian Campbell group sometime in the late 60s , early 70s. |
17 Mar 01 - 08:56 PM (#420183) Subject: RE: BS: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: Art Thieme Utah Phillips once told me about a group called something like The Mac-Pap Brigade. They were probably from Canada---actually the McKenzie-Papaneau Brigade. Can anyone tell us more about them?? Art |
17 Mar 01 - 09:44 PM (#420208) Subject: RE: BS: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: GUEST,colwyn dane Hi folks,
I don't think anybody using the Mudcat facilities, participated in the Spanish Civil War of 1936-39, (they also had
"Franco needed help from the opposite side of the battlefront. And he obtained this aid.
I hope this helps somebody somewhere. |
18 Mar 01 - 08:49 AM (#420366) Subject: RE: BS: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: cetmst To get back to the music theme of this thread: Smithsonian Folkways has two volumes of Spanish Civil War songs including "Six Songs for Democracy" recorded in German in Barcelona in 1936 by German anti-Nazis. I have the original Keynote 78 from 1940, if it has not crumbled to dust in the attic, on which can be heard bombs in the background. My LP is from 1961 but these are available on CD's from Smithsonian. There are very informative liner notes. I have Christy Moore's 'Viva la Quince Brigade'concerning Irish members of the International Brigade recorded from a radio program but have been unable to find the source. Does anyone know where it is recorded ? The Spanish Civil War took place during my formative years and I recall the original admiration for those who fought on the Republican side and the later anti-Communist hysteria that questioned the admirable motives of these men. As a former resident of New Hampshire during the William Loeb years I am not surprised that people in the state are still fussing about the whole affair. |
18 Mar 01 - 01:18 PM (#420467) Subject: RE: BS: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: artbrooks There is an interview in this month's (April) Military History magazine with an American veteran of the Spanish Civil War(Robert Steck). According to him, the unit was actually the Lincoln Battalion of the 15th International Brigade (the "Quince Brigada" memorialized in the song), which also had a Washington Battalion. There was also an English Battalion, but it is unclear in the article what Brigade they belonged to. The French volunteers were in the 12th International Brigade |
18 Mar 01 - 01:58 PM (#420489) Subject: RE: BS: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: Art Thieme just to clarify---The "art" in the previous post is NOT me-- Art Thieme |
18 Mar 01 - 02:06 PM (#420495) Subject: RE: BS: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: artbrooks Very true |
19 Mar 01 - 07:29 PM (#421206) Subject: Lyr Add: JARAMA From: The Walrus I seem to recall reading that the Abraham Lincoln Bde and the British Bn served together at Jarama (one re-enforcing/relieving the other), so, to keep a musical connection a British Bn song (there apparently is an AL Bde version, but I don't have it) JARAMA (TUNE: Red River Valley) There's a valley in Spain called Jarama, That's a place that we all know so well For 'twas there that we wasted our manhood. And most of our old age as well. From this valley they say we we're leaving, But don't hasten to bid us adieu, For e'en though we make our departure, We'll be back in an hour or two Oh we're proud of our British Battalion, And the marathon record it's made. Please do us this one little favour And take this last word to Brigade. "You will never be happy with strangers; They would not understand you as we, So remember the Jarama Valley And the old men who wait patiently." Walrus |
19 Mar 01 - 11:37 PM (#421290) Subject: Lyr Add: THE JARAMA VALLEY From: Art Thieme THE JARAMA VALLEY This song was recorded by Woody Guthrie with the Almanac Singers. Later it was done by Terry Gilkyson -- also with the Almanac Singers.
There's a valley in Spain called Jarama,
We are men of the Lincoln Batalion,
From this valley they say we are leaving,
We are proud of the Lincoln Battalion,
Now we are far from that valley of sorrow,
There's a valley in Spain called Jarama, Art Thieme |
20 Mar 01 - 03:07 PM (#421799) Subject: RE: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: GUEST,Irish Sergeant I believe you're right about the Battalions. There were two American battalions The Abraham Lincoln and George Washinton Battalions. I Don't remember what the British Battalion was called off the top of my Head. I thought it was called the Saint George Battalion but I may be confusing it with a Waffen SS unit formed from British P.O.W.s in the secomnd world war. That atrocities happened on both sides in indisputable. I submit, however that they were more prevelent on the Fascist side. How much of that is propaganda, we'll never know. The lesson in tha Spanish Civil War is that it could happen again and we all must work to see that it doesn't. That will be the truest memorial we could give the men of the International brigades. Kindest reguards, Neil |
16 Jan 11 - 01:36 PM (#3075773) Subject: RE: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: GUEST,Mr. Jim One form of Socialism fighting against another. One could say that it was a good thing that our reactionary, ready to fight and die for their cause, commies left the USA and went into Spain's slaughter. Hitler's National Socialists were just as evil as Stalin's Socialists. America's big mistake was not destroying Stalin's evil empire after we destroyed Hitler's. The Soviet genocides of peoples living in the Caucasus and exterminations of large social groups are not very much different from similar policies by Nazis. Both Communist and Nazi systems deemed a part of humanity unworthy of existence. The difference is that the Communist model is based on the class system, the Nazi model on race and territory. The genocide of a class may well be tantamount to the genocide of a race - the deliberate starvation of a child of a Ukrainian kulak as a result of the famine caused by Stalin's regime is equal to the starvation of a Jewish child in the Warsaw ghetto as a result of the famine caused by the Nazi regime. |
17 Jan 11 - 04:28 AM (#3076202) Subject: RE: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: Jim Carroll "America's big mistake was not destroying Stalin's evil empire after we destroyed Hitler's. " And the world's big mistake was not destroying America's 'Evil Empire', which ended up invading and bombing fifty-odd 3rd world countries in undeclared wars, culminating in the chemical bombing of Viet-Nam, and running concentration camps for illegally arrested terrorist 'suspects' who are detained without trial and routinely tortured. Who will protect us from the 'protectors'? Jim Carroll |
17 Jan 11 - 07:36 PM (#3076775) Subject: RE: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: Mark Ross Our big mistake was our involvement in WWI, which provided the conditions that let Hitler come to power. If not for the Treaty of Versailles, there wouldn't have been any Hitler, probably no Korea, no Vietnam War, and most certainly, there wouldn't be this mess in the Middle East to contend with. Mark Ross |
17 Jan 11 - 07:41 PM (#3076779) Subject: RE: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: Joe_F For a vivid view of that very messy war, read _Homage to Catalonia_ by George Orwell, who was there. He has the honor of having been wounded by Fascists & then having to run for his life from Communists. |
18 Jan 11 - 04:52 AM (#3076956) Subject: RE: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: Jim Carroll "He has the honor of having been wounded by Fascists" My father was wounded by fascists and spent a year as a prisoner-of-war in Spain - I don't thing he considered it much of an 'honour'. "....very messy war" The war would have been far less messy had the powers-that-be recognised fascism as the threat that it was, rather than treating those who went to fight in Spain as criminals. My dad returned home in 1939 to find he had been 'awarded' a security record as a "premature anti-fascist" and had been blacklisted from his work, forcing him to become one of 'MacAlpine's Men'. My mother, sister and I hardly ever saw him until 1953 when he finally returned home. On top of this, he was excommunicated from his church for supporting the wrong side; no great problem as far as he was concerned - but it certainly helped 'pin the tail on the donkey' in the Who's Who Book of Fascict Supporters'. Jim Carroll |
11 May 20 - 09:46 AM (#4051814) Subject: RE: Abraham Lincoln Brigade From: GUEST I met John Murra, the Assistant Commissar of the Lincolns in 1969, in Ithaca, NY, where he was a professor at Cornell. Having grown up with the LP "Songs of the Lincoln Brigade", and knowing all the songs pretty much by heart, I asked him about those songs. His comment (to my disappointment) was that the Lincolns never sang them. "So, what did they sing?" I asked him. "They are unrepeatable," he said. :-) Art, the Mac-Paps were the Canadian equivalent of the Lincolns. (Or the Lincolns were the American equivalent of the Mac-Paps.) The Jarama Valley song was written by Woodie Guthrie. The "Songs of the Lincoln Brigade" album had "Ernst Busch and Chorus" on one side, singing songs from the Thaeleman Battalion, the German unit of the Int'l Brigades, mostly made up of German Communists. The original recording -- as someone noted above -- made during a bombardment in Madrid. The other side was the Almanack Singers: Pete Seeger, Woodie Guthrie, Bess Hawes Lomax, and Butch Lomax. It was supposedly songs sung by the Lincolns but I suspect at least some of them were written for propaganda purposes by the Almanacks. (And I don't mean that cynically or disrespectfully.) If any of the songs were sung by the Lincolns they were certainly cleaned up for public consumption before recording. (eg: "Where we get sweet damn-all three times a day" was most certainly "fuck-all" a borrow from the Brits.) |