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13 Feb 97 - 04:06 PM (#2194) Subject: Scarborough fair From: jpavet@wanadoo.fr Can anyone help me find the origin of the lyrics and of the song (both versions :S& G and EMacColl ? Thank you |
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13 Feb 97 - 11:01 PM (#2203) Subject: Lyr Add: SCARBOROUGH FAIR From: Anne Cormack SCARBOROUGH FAIR
CHORUS: Are you going to Scarborough Fair?
1. Tell her to make me a cambric shirt,
2. Tell her to wash it in yonder dry well,
3. Tell her to dry it on yonder thorn,
4. Tell her to find me an acre of land,
5. Tell her to plough it with a lamb's horn,
6. Tell her to reap it with a sickle of leather,
7. Tell her to tie it all up in a sack, All of these verses except the last one are the version collected from William Moat of Whitby and published in Lucy Broadwood's "English County Songs". I can't remember where I picked up the last verse! Anne |
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14 Feb 97 - 07:52 AM (#2213) Subject: RE: Scarborough fair From: Susan-Marie I remember yet another verse:
Thresh the wheat with an old shoe sole |
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14 Feb 97 - 07:21 PM (#2231) Subject: RE: Scarborough fair From: Susan of DT There are five versions of Child #2 in the DT, two of which have the title Scarborough Fair. I looked under "Scarbo*" and after finding one of the Scarborough Fairs, noted that it was Child #2, so I then searched for "#2" Messages from multiple threads combined. Messages below are from a new thread. |
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16 Nov 98 - 02:44 PM (#45635) Subject: Scarborough Faire From: kirsten (C4cookie@csd.uwm.edu) I am looking for an E-minor harmony to this song for a performance in early December. I am not an especially musical person, can't write one myself, but if anyone could help it would be appreciated. Thanks! |
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17 Nov 98 - 02:20 AM (#45754) Subject: RE: Scarborough Faire From: Benjamin Bodhra/nai/ Try working on the third of the scale. E minor is actually the same as the G scale but starts at E instead of G. This means you can start a harmony on the G note at the same time as you start your melody on E. From there you just play around a bit, or at least thats what we always find. I know that's not very helpful, but sometimes having the starting note of a harmony makes the rest seem natural. BB |
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17 Nov 98 - 05:59 PM (#45836) Subject: RE: Scarborough Faire From: alison Hi, 5ths and 6ths above the note usually work well too, then you just add a few notes in between to connect them a bit better.... so there aren't so many jumps. don't use too many 5ths in a row though... can make it sound very Chinese. slainte alison |
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17 Nov 98 - 06:25 PM (#45839) Subject: RE: Scarborough Fair From: Bruce O. "Scarborough Fair" with tune in E minor, and (editors) accompaniment, is in Broadwood and Fuller Maitland's 'English County Songs', p. 12, 1892 and reprints. Messages from multiple threads combined. Messages below are from a new thread. |
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19 Mar 01 - 02:29 AM (#420722) Subject: Scarborough Fair From: GUEST,Louis Lee Dear Sirs, I know that SCARBOROUGH FAIR is a very old English folksong dates back to late medieval times.However, the earliest recordings now can be found are the versions of Simon & Garfunkel and Martin Carthy.Do you know whether any earlier versions of this classic available (incl. 78's) in grammophone history?If so Could you give me some ideas how can I buy them? I'll be glad to receive your feedback. Yours faithfully, Louis Lee llee@active.com.hk |
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19 Mar 01 - 07:15 AM (#420761) Subject: RE: Help: Scarborough Fair From: cetmst Child Ballad # 2, 'The Elfin Knight', also known as 'The Cambric Shirt'. Some recordings: Ewan MacColl and A.L.Lloyd, English and Scottish Popular Ballads, v.4, Riverside RLP 12-627 Milt Okun and Ellen Stekert, Traditional American Love Songs, Riverside RLP 12-634 Jean Ritchie and Oscar Brand, Riddle Me This. Riverside RLP 12-646 Ewan MacColl and Peggy Seeger, Matching Songs of the British Isles and America, Riverside RLP 12-637 Henry Belafonte, Belafonte By Request, RCA Victor LSP 4307 Grace Creswell, Tragic Ballads, Rebel 411 Cathy Barton and Dave Para, Ballad of the Boonslick King's Singers, Folk songs of the British Isles, EMI Classic CDC 7 54902 2 8 Try Smithsonian Folkways/Dyer-Bennet Records Catalogue Did I read that Riverside Records were being reissued ? |
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19 Mar 01 - 07:31 PM (#421209) Subject: RE: Help: Scarborough Fair From: GUEST,Bruce O. Search for ZC2| in the broadside index on my website and you find ref. to the earliest know version (c 1660). 1st "Scarborough Fair" version is in Kidson's Traditional Tunes, 1891. See also "Acre of Land" thread, down a little from this for otherr versions.
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19 Mar 01 - 10:55 PM (#421277) Subject: RE: Help: Scarborough Fair From: GUEST,Bruce O. See 'Acre of land' thread for earliest Scarborough Fair version |
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20 Mar 01 - 07:13 AM (#421393) Subject: RE: Help: Scarborough Fair From: Homeless Scarborough Fair in the Acre of Land thread. |
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20 Mar 01 - 11:15 PM (#422134) Subject: RE: Help: Scarborough Fair From: richlmo Just read a joke in Reader's Digest about a mother and her daughter listening to Simon and Garfunkel in the car. After a moment her daughter said, " Well, did she? " The mother replied, " Did she what? " ' Did Parsley save Rosemary in time? " I really love the song. |
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21 Mar 01 - 06:33 AM (#422225) Subject: RE: Help: Scarborough Fair From: Ringer Robin & Barry Dransfield also do a good job with this song on Rout of the Blues. I've always thought the S&G version is a bit twee. |
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21 Mar 01 - 08:31 AM (#422276) Subject: RE: Help: Scarborough Fair From: Les from Hull The Dransfields was my favourite version too. I remember they wanted it adopted as Yorkshire's anthem, to save up from Ilkley Moor Baht At. Very commendable. Les |
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08 Jul 09 - 09:41 AM (#2674694) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: Mr Happy What does it mean 'a sickle of leather'? |
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08 Jul 09 - 09:45 AM (#2674700) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: Jack Campin What the dictionary says. A leather sickle wouldn't work that good. |
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08 Jul 09 - 09:48 AM (#2674702) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: Mr Happy .......or is it a mishearing or corruption of some other word? |
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08 Jul 09 - 09:49 AM (#2674703) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: jacqui.c Which is the whole point of the song. |
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08 Jul 09 - 09:54 AM (#2674706) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: Mr Happy Which is the whole point of the song. ?? |
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08 Jul 09 - 09:56 AM (#2674709) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: jacqui.c Putting forward impossible tasks for a former lover before agreeing to take them back. Listen closely to all the WORDS and it will all be clear. |
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08 Jul 09 - 10:02 AM (#2674719) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: curmudgeon All of the tasks set forth by both lovers are impossible without the aid of magic, thus the possibility that the herbal incantation my have been, at one time, a form of "protection" for the singer - Tom |
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08 Jul 09 - 10:11 AM (#2674728) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: theleveller I did once wonder if it was originally 'are you going to Scarborough, fair' as there is no fair in Scarborough these days. However, I found out that there was a big, well known annual market in Scarborough.... "Scarborough was granted a market charter in 1253 by King Henry III. The markets started on the 15th August and the event ran for 45 days. This meant merchants from all over Europe (and even further afield) travelled to trade in the town. This is probably the fair that the song is about, as the event was so large entertainers attended, giving the perfect opportunity for songs to be written." |
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08 Jul 09 - 10:50 AM (#2674746) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: Susan of DT There are now 11 versions of Child #2 in the Digital Tradition. There are only 3 attached to the top of the thread. I'll see whether I can find Joe Offer's instructions on how to edit that...
Hmmm, that did not work, do here is a list: |
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08 Jul 09 - 12:04 PM (#2674807) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: Brian Peters Most of the collected versions of Child 2 don't mention Scarborough at all, having an alternative or unspecified location. The only ones with verses about 'Scarborough Fair' seem to be those collected in Yorkshire - i.e. near Scarborough. As for "the whole point of the song", this becomes more and more obscure as you get away from the 'Elfin Knight' variants (which are those most closely resembling the oldest available source version), until by the time it evolves into 'Acre of Land' it's lost any sense of a dialogue and has become a nonsense song. |
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08 Jul 09 - 04:51 PM (#2675081) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: The Sandman really? |
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08 Jul 09 - 04:59 PM (#2675094) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: WalkaboutsVerse I think it's best sung as a duet, where first the man then the lady plays very hard to get. |
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08 Jul 09 - 06:58 PM (#2675220) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: Tootler "Whittingham Fair" in the Northumbrian Minstrelsy is to all intents and purposes identical to the first version of SF in the DT. It even retains the "Parsley Sage..." refrain. |
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09 Jul 09 - 03:54 AM (#2675440) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: Tradsinger The origins of the Carthy/Simon & G version appear to be Ewan MaColl's book 'The Singing Island' in which the song is attributed to the singing of Mark Anderson, a retired lead miner from Yorkshire. Pitchpole Jack's version can be found here, Tradsinger |
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09 Jul 09 - 04:26 AM (#2675455) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: stallion Just stumbled across this thread, being a Scarborian an all, just to take up what leveller said about being no fair in Scarborough, there was, and in sofar as I am aware there still is, a fair in Scarborough. As keeper of the Scarborough Punch and Judy tradition I know, as the tradition was passed on to me through the family by the late Sid Owenson, that his grandfather arrived as a child in Scarborough in 1898 in a Bow Top caravan to make some money entertaining at the fair, they then had a marrionette theatre and travelled the fairs earning a living. His great gradfather decided to stay and started the Punch & Judy show on the beach that year. Sid said his grandfather remembered the bow top caravan although he was very young at the time. So the fair was there in 1898 and I would like to bet that it wasn't a victorian invention, who knows, thus it passed through four generations of father/son till it came to me, a brother in law. The tradition, for what it is worth, are the secrets, which alas now can be downloaded from the internet, and a gladston bag with the original Mr Punch from 1898. I have to say the puppet is very crude and would not pass muster in todays sophisticated audience and it is a tad smelly! Peter |
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09 Jul 09 - 04:42 AM (#2675468) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: theleveller Interesting stuff, Stallion. Thanks for that. I didn't know that the fair was still in existence. Do you know whereabouts in Scarborough the fair was held? I'd also heard that it was also a hiring fair; do you know if that was the case? |
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09 Jul 09 - 01:28 PM (#2675825) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: stallion We had land ajoining Weaponess Valley coach park and for years, well since as far as I can go back it was there, I remember the flea circus, magic acts, and a plethora of "freak" side shows, like the bearded lady and the lamb with three heads and such stuff. By my early teens it had become a fair with just rides and shooting galleries of one sort or another. It then moved to the William Street car park, probably late 60's early seventies, I remember taking one girlfriend in particular there in either '69 or '70 (you wags calm down, we're talking years here!) And according to my sister it is still there! |
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09 Jul 09 - 01:36 PM (#2675831) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: stallion As to a hiring fair, well it is not inconceivable, in the 18th century our family were farm labourers in Scalby north of Scarborough and in the 19th century were in Staxton east of Scarborough, before rail travel all the roads led to Scarborough and it also had a racecourse, my best guess is that it was probably a place for the hinterland to gather and do business so why not a hiring fair. This of course is conjecture not scholarship! |
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10 Jul 09 - 01:37 PM (#2676741) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: Mick Woods What's Dylan's "Girl Fron The North Country". Is it just a rip off or did he ever acknowledge Scarborough fair as the inspiration? |
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10 Jul 09 - 03:12 PM (#2676852) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: stallion I think there is a thread somewhere that suggests that Dylan did acknowledge MC Whereas Paul Simon didn't, As far as I know MC doesn't comment on it. |
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11 Jul 09 - 03:22 AM (#2677243) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: Darowyn When I lived in Scarborough there were sometimes nostalgia articles in the paper about the hiring fair, which was still, thirty years ago, within living memory for some elderly townsfolk. It was described as taking place on St Nicholas Cliff, where the Grand Hotel and the St Nicholas Hotel, with its Charles Laughton links, stand. The funfair on the coach park marks the end of the holiday season, or it did when I was Community Tutor there. Cheers Dave |
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11 Jul 09 - 03:40 AM (#2677254) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: s&r Found this without too much trouble Stallion: 2000:] Martin [Carthy] appeared onstage with Paul Simon at the Hammersmith Apollo during the last week of October. The "Scarborough Fair Saga" was finally put to bed as the two of them performed it together. Here's a word or two from Martin about the experience. "It was a great moment and the whole thing is about as satisfying as it could be. And all because of a phone call from Paul a week or so beforehand with, among other things, an invitation to his London gig, an invitation which turned out to be an invitation to sing. So I accepted. The feeling has been growing more and more in me that, at the very very least, it was time to let go. Putting it quite bluntly: even if I had cause to be aggrieved - which I was becoming less and less sure was ever really the case - I cannot be a victim all my life. In fact, in an interview ten years ago or so, Paul thanked publicly all the musicians and others he had known in England in the sixties, and this gave a shove to that train of thought in me. In interviews more recently I have found myself, when faced with the inevitable question, less and less willing to go through this "trudge through the grudge". What I had felt was, I think, more to do with injured pride than actually being cheated by the man. It has become apparent over the years that any such cheating was done by others in the course of or in the aftermath of lawsuits. For a fair time now the music he makes has been telling me one important thing and finally I have taken notice. That this is a good man. Gracious too. His musicians love him and feel valued. They respond by being just about the best band they could possibly be. Simply hearing them play that night was to be given a masterclass. I was quite nervy at the thought of going out there and singing but Paul himself made it very easy. What else is there to say? Except that I left the Hammersmith Apollo a very happy man, with a weight off my mind and a real feeling of release. And all it took was to sing and talk with him at the end of the London leg of his tour. This is someone who values the life he has led - all of it - and detests the idea of bad blood. I'm thankful to him for having the imagination and the grace to pick up the phone and set up what has made an end of this nonsense. It's over." Stu |
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16 Jul 09 - 03:35 PM (#2681683) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: GUEST,Mick Woods This gives some insight into what a fine man Martin Carthy is. |
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17 Jul 09 - 05:57 AM (#2682057) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: stallion Also that being unforgiving is a burden and that letting go of bitterness and anger leads to a more settled inner self. And I agree, MC is a top notch person as well as a great performer |
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17 Jul 09 - 06:03 AM (#2682060) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: stallion ooops, I forgot to add, Scarborough council did have an arts and craft fair on St Nicholas cliff for at least a couple of years, as for the hiring fair, mmmmmmm, less likely, though I guess I am looking through 20century goggles! |
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06 Oct 12 - 06:46 PM (#3415621) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: GUEST Dos any body know any more about Sid owenson family tree reasons many thanks lee owenson Roberts son of John owenson Roberts Grandson of Owen owenson Roberts |
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18 Sep 13 - 02:07 AM (#3559482) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: GUEST,Curious My question is, are the words public domain or are they still under someone's copyright? Just the words, particularly the "Parsley, Sage, Rosemary and Thyme" version. Not the song, just the words. |
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18 Sep 13 - 08:43 PM (#3559703) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: Bill D I can't imagine anyone trying to claim any sort of copyright on a phrase several hundred years old. If they were part of another song with 'new' lyrics written AROUND the old....maybe |
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19 Sep 13 - 07:31 PM (#3559915) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: Airymouse Just to muddy(cat) the waters, there's a recorded version by the New York State fiddler, Larry Older, [I don't care what the scholars in Oxford believe, a "fiddler" is someone who plays the violin and calls it a "fiddle"], which is much different from the syrupy tune you here in elevators. It begins: Where are you going, I'm going to the fair Flim limb a lea casa lo ma lea If you see my love tell him I'll be there To ma tassa a low, fa lass a low Flim limb a lea casa low ma lea. It's track A5 on "Adirondack Songs, Ballads and Fiddle Tunes." |
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20 Sep 13 - 12:55 AM (#3559951) Subject: RE: Origins: Scarborough Fair From: MGM·Lion Doesn't 'muddy the waters' particularly, that there should be yet another version of Child #2, The Elfin Knight, aka The Cambric Shirt, aka (cont p 94), to add to all the dozens in Child & Bronson & Roud & (cont p 95)... ~M~ |