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08 Apr 01 - 09:45 AM (#435715) Subject: HELP boots of spanish leather From: GUEST,duart I've been revisiting my old Dylan song book for one of my students and am sure that he "borrowed" the tune for "Boots of Spanish Leather" from an old english original and then Donovan used it for his "Ballad of Geraldine" but I can't for the life of me remember the original. Can any Mudcatter help? |
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08 Apr 01 - 06:36 PM (#435982) Subject: RE: HELP boots of spanish leather From: MMario Would it possibly be "Raggle Taggle Gypsy" or a variant thereof?
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09 Apr 01 - 11:17 AM (#436389) Subject: RE: HELP boots of spanish leather From: Pinetop Slim Variants including Black Jack Davey, Gypsy Davey. |
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09 Apr 01 - 03:05 PM (#436574) Subject: RE: HELP boots of spanish leather From: Morticia If you go to this site click here you can download a midi file of the tune or search for a similar match |
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09 Apr 01 - 03:20 PM (#436591) Subject: RE: HELP boots of spanish leather From: GUEST,Bruce O. It wouldn't take much to change the 'shoes of fine green leather' of "I know where I'm gong" to 'Boots of Spanish leather'. Spanish leather was widely appreciated; see "Love's Victory Obtained" in the Scarce Songs 1 file on my website for a mention of 'shoes of Spanish leather', c 1670. |
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23 May 07 - 10:03 AM (#2059006) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: JeremyC Refreshing this, because I've been trying to memorize the words, and a minor meaning-related item is troubling me. I've heard that spanish leather is supposed to represent betrayal--is this correct? And the western wind in the last verse seems deliberate, too. Does anyone know what associations come with the western wind? |
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23 May 07 - 11:05 AM (#2059054) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: The Borchester Echo The OP asked about tune similarities. Boots and Dylan's earlier Girl From The North Country are pretty much the same tune really, and there's a huge borrowing, both musically and lyrically, from Martin Carthy's reconstruction and arrangement of Scarborough Fair. |
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23 May 07 - 11:35 AM (#2059075) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: jonm Robert Burns' 'Western Wind' concerns longing for a distant lover. That may be the link. |
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23 May 07 - 11:35 AM (#2059077) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: Backwoodsman Re the west wind, might it be that a wind blowing from the west would make it difficult for a sailing vessel to travel from Spain to North America? |
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23 May 07 - 07:01 PM (#2059385) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: McGrath of Harlow It's a variation on Scarborough Fair, words and music. (Variation rather than variant - like a musical variation it starts from the original and does something different with it.) |
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23 May 07 - 07:03 PM (#2059387) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: McGrath of Harlow I mean Girl from the North Country is a variaton of Scarborough Fair. Boots is a further variation on that. |
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24 May 07 - 05:10 AM (#2059635) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: GUEST,George Martin Carthy didn't 'reconstruct' Scarborough Fair. If you listen and/or read McColl's printed version, before Carthy sang it, there's no difference. |
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24 May 07 - 05:20 AM (#2059639) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: The Borchester Echo When I said Dr MCMBE 'reconstructed' Scarborough Fair I was referring to the text, though of course he and Ewan MacColl may have been, independently, reinventing the wheel. Do you have a link to the MacColl printed version to which you refer? As far as the tune is concerned (which is what was requested), Dylan used a variant of the Scarborough Fair tune forBoots as he had already done for Girl From The North Country, as I posted much higher up. |
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24 May 07 - 06:12 AM (#2059661) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: GUEST,George The Singing Island, compiled by Peggy Seeger and Ewan MacColl. |
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24 May 07 - 11:50 AM (#2059914) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: JeremyC I'm not aware of Martin Carthy having "reconstructed" the words to Scarborough Fair--it's a common song, and it's been well-known for a long time. There are certainly instances of his having done this ("Famous Flowers of Serving Man" for one), but I don't think it happened here. FWIW, I took "Girl From the North Country" as Dylan's rewrite of Scarborough Fair, and "Boots of Spanish Leather" seems like a rewrite/response to "10,000 Miles" to me. The melodies have the same overall contour, but I think it's a stretch to say that "Boots" has a variant of the Scarborough Fair melody. I'm a fan, not a scholar, though, so my impressions carry little weight. |
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24 May 07 - 12:05 PM (#2059929) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: The Borchester Echo Well, Dr MCMBE said he did (from various bits of extant texts) in the very early 60s when I certainly didn't know enough to contradict him. 'Twas why he was more than a bit miffed when a New York/Queens chap lifted and copyrighted it (though this is all now water under troubled bridges). He wasn't as cross at Mr Zimmerman for having lifted bits of text and tune for Girl From The North Country as Bob told Martin at the time in a slightly shamefaced way that he'd done it. Had to, really. So Bob recycled the melody for Boots. Obviously, really. |
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24 May 07 - 12:16 PM (#2059934) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: cobra You will find that Donovan was copied by Dylan in this and all his other songs. Donovan also wrote all of Elgar's Enigma Variations and the whole of Robert Burns oeuvre was stolen by the bard from Donovan's digs in Dumfries. Burns then passed it off as his own work. Cheatin' barsteward. At least that's what wee Leitch says. :) He also taught Braveheart all he knew about about swordsmanship and singlehandedly won the University boat race without a cox. Quite a guy. |
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24 May 07 - 12:22 PM (#2059937) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: Vixen Western Winds, in the British Isles, pick up a lot of moisture from the Gulf Stream. Then they blow up to slightly higher altitudes over the warmer landmass, get cooled off, and can't hold their water, so to speak, and rain ensues. They drop small raindrops (hence "small rain") because the clouds aren't towering thunderheads. Raindrops can only get as large as the cohesion strength of water, but big ones come from high altitudes, and small ones from lower altitudes. Rain is associated with tears, sorrow, and depression (think low atmospheric pressure), and since losing a lover is usually associated with sadness, rain is an appropriate objective correlative. What I REALLY want to know is what's so special about Spanish leather??? Is it cowhide? Is it tanned in some unusual fashion? Is it exceptionally durable? Soft? Or is it cheap? Perhaps it's not a positive thing, but a negative one--it's *not* durable, hence "boots of Spanish leather" would typify a love that didn't last...???? Can somebody tell us what made/makes Spanish leather so worthy of repeated mention in the folk tradition? V |
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24 May 07 - 12:32 PM (#2059955) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: cobra Vixen, I would hazard a guess that it may be as much to do with the intricate decorative work which was often associated with Spanish leather. It is possible that it was more "Sunday best" than the workaday stuff commonly used by cowboys etc? Just a thought. |
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24 May 07 - 04:04 PM (#2060133) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: GUEST,George All this crap that Simon and Garfunkle stole a song from Martin Carthy whereas Carthy got it from MacColl shows the ignorance that people like Countess richards expresses. Carthy copied from MacColl, S and M copied from Carthy and Dylan copied from everybody! |
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24 May 07 - 04:17 PM (#2060143) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: The Borchester Echo Art GarfunkEl never wrote a song in his life. Paul Simon extensively 'borrowed' a Martin Carthy arrangement. Ewan MAcColl 'borrowed'/expropriated all kinds of trad material. Who is S&M? Countess Richard (not plural) is a character from Child #68. Who the hell is Guest George? (Good grief, not THAT George? G the Tyke?) Now THAT would explain his absence of awareness of what went on c 1965 . . . |
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24 May 07 - 04:23 PM (#2060144) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: JeremyC CountessRichard: Maybe he assembled a set of verses he thought worked best together, but I can't imagine a need to "reconstruct" the verses, since they'd already been collected many times by the 60s. Usually he'll mention it in the liner notes if he's made alterations to a song, but he didn't do that in his notes on "Martin Carthy." For me, that's enough evidence to make it seem unlikely that any work was needed on the lyrics, but I've been wrong before and will be again. I really think "Boots of Spanish Leather" differs sufficiently to be considered a new melody. The guitar part he uses is still very similar to Carthy's, and "Girl" is almost identical to "Boots" in that respect, but I think the most important distinguishing characteristics of the "Scarborough Fair" tune are missing from both of the other songs. It seems to me that most of the similarities you might perceive come from it having almost the same chord progression and a similar overall contour. You could make a similar argument that Paul Simon's "Kathy's Song" is a variation on Martin Carthy's "Lord Franklin," really--the chord progression is close and so is the melody. But they're different songs, and again, it seems like a stretch to call "Kathy's Song" a variation on "Lord Franklin." I read somewhere that he was actually pleased by Dylan's rewrite of the song, because he made a new song out of the material (like he did with "Lord Franklin"), rather than ripping it off completely like Paul Simon did. At least Carthy and Simon made up over it. |
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24 May 07 - 05:10 PM (#2060191) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: GUEST,George I meant S and G but maybe I was right the first time. |
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24 May 07 - 05:24 PM (#2060204) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: The Borchester Echo I've just looked at the tab for Kathy's Song and have to say that it doesn't resemble Lord Franklin anything like as much as Bob Dylan's Dream does. |
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25 May 07 - 04:03 AM (#2060465) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: GUEST,Fossil in NZ At the time the song "Boots" was written, Dylan was working at lighting speed, and it is unlikely that he was consciously considering the meanings of any of the words or concepts his songs contained. He had been reading both prose and poetry very widely and listening to lots of different sorts of music. The influences, tunes etc that surface in the songs from this time reflect the mish-mash of creativity that marks the true wordsmith. Using words like "structured", "constructed", "deliberately borrowed" in this context is meaningless. In the folk scene of the sixties, everyone was using, borrowing, reshaping other people's work and drawing deeply on the old folk traditions. I have been singing this song for 40-plus years now and personally doubt whether "Spanish Leather" has any real meaning, outside of the fact that it gives a different, puzzling and charismatic quality to the ending of a song which seems to have been inspired by (though there are no direct references to), his break-up with girlfriend Suzie Rotolo. You can analyse Dylan and his works to death, but the joker-man will always elude you.... |
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25 May 07 - 11:44 AM (#2060738) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: Scorpio Getting a bit off the point here. 'Boots' is based on an English folk song (both the tune and the question/answer format), but I can't remember which. Not Lord Randall which is Bob Dylan's Dream, but Lord something else? |
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25 May 07 - 12:05 PM (#2060751) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: The Borchester Echo The 'Question & Answer' theme come under the umbrella of Riddles Wisely Expounded Child #1 and The Elfin Knight Child #2, of which variants are Cambric Shirt and Scarborough/Whittingham (and no doubt other) Fairs. The tune of Bob Dylans's Dream is that of Lord Franklin, not Randal Child #12. Whale fishing, maybe (though they were supposed to be seeking the North West passage), but not poisonous eels. |
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25 May 07 - 12:13 PM (#2060755) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: Dave Sutherland That is the general opinion Fossil, and she was leaving him to travel to Italy (and possibly Spain.) Sorry I'm at work at present therefore unable to check the various references. |
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25 May 07 - 12:42 PM (#2060788) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: JeremyC There are some distinct similarities between "Kathy's Song" and "Lord Franklin" (Carthy's version). The melody is a variant of "Franklin," and it also has nearly the same chord progression. But the point I was making is that "Kathy's Song" resembles "Lord Franklin" about as closely as "Boots of Spanish Leather" resembles "Scarborough Fair." Which is to say, not an awful lot. Scorpio: I think you may have your lords confused. "A Hard Rain's A-Gonna Fall" very loosely (EXTREMELY loosely) uses "Lord Randall" as a structural base, and "Bob Dylan's Dream" comes directly and unequivocally from "Lord Franklin," in what I think was a brilliant rewrite on Dylan's part--he preserves the tone of the song, but americanizes it in virtually every way and changes the theme to a more universal feeling of loss. "Boots" makes the most sense to me as a response to "10,000 Miles"; still, Fossil's right about the ultimate validity of interpretations. I'm pretty sure Spanish leather has a distinct association with betrayal, just because of other references to it that I've seen, like "Gypsy Davy/Seven Yellow Gypsies/Etc." but in my opinion, a song is whatever you get from it. |
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25 May 07 - 01:12 PM (#2060812) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: GUEST,Keith Talking of Paul Simon and his influence by Martin Carthy and others http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio2/events/60sseason/documentaries/simon.shtml |
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25 May 07 - 01:37 PM (#2060831) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: GUEST,puzzled chris "Art GarfunkEl never wrote a song in his life" Who said he had? Anyway this is just wrong. He has, several. Is the rest of your information this good? |
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25 May 07 - 03:02 PM (#2060892) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: The Borchester Echo Somebody called "Guest George' said: All this crap that Simon and Garfunkle (sic) stole a song from Martin Carthy Mr Garfunkel may well have written 'several songs'. My remarks were confined to the performing partnership with Paul Simon. He played no part in the writing of any of those songs. And this thread is about TUNES, actually. The OP (if still about) must be v pissed off that peeps go on AND ON talking about something else entirely. |
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25 May 07 - 05:52 PM (#2061003) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: McGrath of Harlow And this thread is about TUNES The confusing thing is that sometimes people (more especially some Americans) tend to say "tune" to mean "song"; and sometimes "song" to mean "tune". It's just and example of the way language varies an changes with place and time. ........................................ I've just had a look at The Concise Paul Simon Complete and it's got a note "All words and music Paul Simon except 'Hey Schoolgirl' and '7 O'Clock News/Silent Night' by Paul Simon and Art Garfunkel..." ........................................ I've always thought it a bit unfair Paul Simon gets slagged off for his rewrite of Scarborough Fair. With the way it incorporates "Canticle", intertwining it with the traditional words and tune, it becomes a very different song, and a pretty good one. |
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26 May 07 - 11:04 AM (#2061317) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: JeremyC Oh, I like both versions of the song, and I'm sure Paul Simon didn't intend to steal credit from Martin Carthy. I do think it's interesting how much overlap there is in style between Dylan, Simon, Carthy, and a few others. Dylan and Simon clearly picked up a lot while they were in England. For instance (in an attempt to be remotely on topic), the fingerpicking figure in "April Come She Will," "Kathy's Song", "Boots of Spanish Leather," and "Girl From the North Country" looks like it was probably borrowed from part of Carthy's "Scarborough Fair" (while it's a common change, it seems to me that the specifics of it come from Carthy). |
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26 May 07 - 11:31 AM (#2061335) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: The Borchester Echo Hey, McGrath! That was when they were Tom & Gerry. PS has always insisted that Artie never wrote a word so it either means that Art wrote only the tune or that Paul has forgotten about the odd one. Scarborough Fair/Canticle is indeed a very clever piece of counterpoint, as Martin Carthy (sorry I can't type that without exploding with laughter as somebody on another thread referred to him as 'Martian') always testifies. He was indeed miffed when Mr Simon swiped his arrangement without acknowledgment though but all that, as stated earlier, is now BRIDGE _______ WATER |
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26 May 07 - 12:43 PM (#2061362) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: GUEST He stole it from Home Service after they performed it in Don Quixote at the National in 1982! |
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26 May 07 - 01:01 PM (#2061368) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: ard mhacha In the song The Flower of Magherally the lady in the song is described thus, "her bonnet in blue ribbons fell her shoes were Spanish leather o, sung by a wide variety of Irish singers |
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26 May 07 - 01:10 PM (#2061372) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: ard mhacha Correction, Her yellow hair in ringlets hung Her shoes were Spanish lather o, Her bonnet with blue ribbons strung, Her scarlet cloak and feathers o. This song The Flower of Magherally is discussed in the forum. |
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26 May 07 - 01:42 PM (#2061386) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: GUEST,Keith That was when they were Tom & Gerry. PS has always insisted that Artie never wrote a word so it either means that Art wrote only the tune or that Paul has forgotten about the odd one. Well of course Silent Night - 7 O'Clock News (on the S&G album Wednesday Morning, 3 AM) is actually the traditional carol with someone reading out the news as a sort of counterpoint. Richard Nixon is still refered to as "former Vice President, which dates it a bit. I guess it really should be Trad arr Simon & Garfunkel, although in the Complete Columbia Recordings box it (erroneously) claims it as just Paul Simon! Benedictus, Peggy-O and Go Tell it On the Mountain have Trad arr Simon & Garfunkel credits though. |
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26 May 07 - 03:46 PM (#2061442) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: McGrath of Harlow I was just passing on the attribution given in the book, not making any judgement about its accuracy. .............................. Calling Silent Night "trad" would of course be wrong - the original German words were written by Father Joseph Mohr, and the melody is credited to his organist Franz X. Gruber. |
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27 May 07 - 06:01 AM (#2061738) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: GUEST,Keith Calling Silent Night "trad" would of course be wrong - the original German words were written by Father Joseph Mohr, and the melody is credited to his organist Franz X. Gruber. Sorry, I should have been clearer that I was using the Seth Lakeman definition of "trad" there... |
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29 May 07 - 08:56 AM (#2063066) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: Snuffy Cordoba in Spain was famed for its fine, soft leather, which was in great demand as footwear for the nobility. High-class shoemakers were known as cordwainers (or cordovans) Some versions of Child 200 use the footwear to highlight the difference in class between "high heeled shoon, made of Spanish leather-o" and "lowland brogues" or "low-heeled shoes" or even bare feet. |
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17 Jul 09 - 11:03 AM (#2682212) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: breezy Please help with the meanings, sod the tune for now, thats been discussed at length, why not ask Bob Its the 'meaning' So is it about a bust up? 'He' leaves in verse 1 wants her to remain 'unspoiled' in V 2 after V 6 has she 'strayed' or was that a 'she' leaving in V 1? She leaves in verse 7 or is that 'he' In verse 6 is 'she' - assuming its 'He' in verse 1, - showing signs of being right pissed off with his 'askings'? and in verse 8 [last verse] has 'he' already returned home and 'she' gone where 'he' went? Did their paths cross while travelling but they did not meet. Does anyone give a shit? |
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28 May 11 - 12:13 PM (#3161765) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: GUEST,bob The song they're based on is called the leaving of liverpool |
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28 May 11 - 12:39 PM (#3161777) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: MGM·Lion Nobody above [or did I miss it?] has given the correct source for MacColl's version of Scarboro Fair, later sung by Carthy & stolen by SimGarf ~~ ~~sung by Mark Anderson, retired lead miner of Midedleton-in-Teesdale, Yorkshire, 1947 ~~ sung by Ewan MacColl on Argo's The Long Harvest, vol 2, 1967: side 1, Section 2, The Elfin Knight {Child 2}. ~Michael~ |
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28 May 11 - 02:09 PM (#3161819) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: pavane That's interesting.I found several versions in Kidson (1896), but all major key tunes, if I remember right. I always wondered where Carthy's version came from. |
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28 May 11 - 07:36 PM (#3161935) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: Joe_F Here's how I hear it: So long as she is in love with him, and believes that he loves her & will return, she is faithful to him, and when he offers gifts she says that there is no substitute for his coming back. But once it is clear that that is over, mundane wishes, such as for nice clothing, come flooding back in. -- --- Joe Fineman joe_f@verizon.net ||: Marriage is the most estimable of the sexual perversions. :|| |
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31 Oct 11 - 02:11 PM (#3247784) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: Joe_F I see that (in accord with the usual expectations) I have ignored Dylan's pronouns & reversed the sexes of the pair. That should be "So long as he is in love with her", etc. |
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31 Oct 11 - 06:10 PM (#3247940) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: dick greenhaus "boots of Spanish leather is a phrase that keeps popping up in taaditional songs, like "wee pen knife" . Hard to attribute any deep meaning to it, except that it implies high-quality footware. |
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31 Oct 11 - 06:16 PM (#3247945) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: pavane In reply to an earlier post: long ago, the best leather DID apparently come from Spain, specifically Cordova, from which we get the old name of Cordwainer for shoemaker/leather worker. |
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01 Nov 11 - 05:53 AM (#3248198) Subject: RE: Origins: Boots of Spanish Leather (Bob Dylan) From: Fossil Really weird. Stuff you wrote in 2007 suddenly re-surfaces to bite you on the leg! But I stick by what I wrote then. This thread is a total waste of time, "Spanish Leather" means what it means. Dylan didn't steal it from anywhere, he recycled it from whatever was running around in his head at the time, Which comes down to, it means what you, the listener, want it to mean. That's it and all there is. Goodnight for another five years, academic wankers. |