Traditional Music Question

12 Apr 01 - 12:23 PM (#439059)
Subject: Traditional Music Question
From: Naemanson

I have thought about this for a long time. Traditional music has recorded historical and personal events down through the ages. But can we consider these to be an accurate picture? Consider songs about lovers killing their sweethearts. Did it happen so often or do we have a few instances told and retold? Consider all the songs about female sailors. Were there many of them or was it a fantasy repeated by sailors down through the centuries? What about songs of battles and heroes? Are we seeing the event as viewed through contemporary eyes (i.e., to the battle)?

I'd like to hear specific examples cited and your opinion of where they came from and who might have told the story in song. Was there really a Golden Vanity where the cabin boy was drowned by the captain? What might have been the true story there? How about the Handsome Cabin Boy? Who was Stormalong? Did Johnny Copes really run away? Who recorded that incident?

You get the idea...

---

12 Apr 01 - 01:03 PM (#439087)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: Les from Hull

Many of these songs first appear as broadsides. They were written in the equivalent of Tin Pan Alley, by professional songwriters. They may have been based on original events, either culled from newspapers or from hearsay and gossip. So we can't really rely on them too much as primary sources.

So it really depends on how good was the original broadside writer and how reliable were the sources. Newspapers and broadside sellers were more interested in sensation than in accuracy - especially if they were 'recording' the dying confession of someone who was on the scaffold - in American terms a 'goodnight'.

In my opinion, modern writers are more likely to get it right because they have better sources. Perhaps we should all set too and rewrite all those traditional songs? But if we did they would be a lot less exciting.

Les

---

12 Apr 01 - 01:18 PM (#439106)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: Maryrrf

They may not actually capture the facts as they occurred, and very likely most of them don't present an accurate picture at all of what really happened. Most of the stories, battles, events, are related not objectively but from a very biased, personal and emotional point of view. Then they would then have been embellished extensively by people who subsequently picked up the song. Names, places, all kinds of things change. "Mattie Groves" becomes "Little Musgrave". "Fyvie" gets changed to "Fennario" and the captain's name changes from Ned to Sweet William. The "Road to Dundee" gets changed to the "Road to Sweet Carnloch Bay". What comes down to us are not the facts, but the essence, of the collective human condition through the ages. I think of a traditional song as almost like an abstract or impressionist painting. Suddenly you get a glimpse, an impression, of something that happened and the impact it had on someone long ago. And very often, it strikes an answering chord in your own psyche. At least that's how I view it. By the way, I don't know if the events related in "The Golden Vanity" really happened but that's one of my favorite ballads. (And that's another example of how innacurate the songs are - I've heard the enemy called both "the Spanish enemy" and "The Turkish Reverie". Who knows which one it was originally. Also I've heard that the captain was actually Sir Francis Drake (or it might have been Walter Raleigh).

---

12 Apr 01 - 01:58 PM (#439134)
Subject: Lyr Add: BENJAMINS' LAMENTATION and BOLD BENJAMIN
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C

I always imagined that when something exciting happened, the songsters, be they broadside songwriters or illiterate troubadours, would scratch their heads (or whatever they scratched for inspiration) and then start creating a set of verses based on some older ballad that came to mind. The closer the "incident" to the older ballad, the easier the job was, as true then as it is today. The ballad that came down to us from that "incident" may well be a combination of the previous ballad and the "folk-processing" through the ages.

Consider the broadside version of "The Benjamin Lamentations" (circa 1684) with the later "Bold Benjamin;" (1907) there may not have even been a historic incident but the story made the song interesting enough for people to re-work for over 250 years:

Oxford Book of Sea Songs, pp. 44-46

THE BENJAMINS' LAMENTATION for their sad loss at Sea, by Storms and Tempests

Captain Chilver's gone to sea
Hey, boys, O, boys,
With all his company, hey,
Captain Chilver's gone to sea
With all his company
In the brave Benjamin, O.

Thirty guns this ship did bear
Hey, boys, O, boys,
They were bound for Venice fair, hey,
Thirty guns this ship did bear
And a hundred men so clear
In the brave Benjamin, O.

But by ill storms at sea
Hey, boys, O, boys,
Which bred our misery, hey,
But by ill storms at sea
Were drove o' of th' way
In the brave Benjamin, O.

We had more wind than we could bear,
Hey, boys, O, boys,
Our ship it would not steer, hey,
We had more wind than we could bear,
Our masts and sails did tear
In the poor Benjamin, O.

The first harm that we had
Hey, boys, O, boys,
I makes my heart so sad, hey,
The first harm that we had
We lost our fore-mast-head
O the poor Benjamin, O.

The seas aloud did roar
Hey, boys, O, boys,
We being far from shore, hey,
The seas no favour shows
Unto friends nor foes
O the poor Benjamin, O.

The next harm that we spied,
Hey, boys, O, boys,
Then we to heaven cried, hey,
Down fell our main-mast head
Which struck our senses dead
In the poor Benjamin, O.

Then we with seas were crossed,
Hey, boys, O, boys,
And on the ocean tossed, hey,
Then we with seas were tossed,
Many a brave man was lost
In the brave Benjamin, O.

The next harm that we had,
Hey, boys, O, boys,
We had cause to be sad, hey,
The next harm that we had
We lost four men from the yard
In the poor Benjamin, O.

Disabled as I name,
Hey, boys, O, boys,
We were drove on the main, hey,
So the next harm we had
We lost our rudder's head
In the poor Benjamin, O.

Then we all fell to prayer,
Hey, boys, O, boys,
The Lord our lives would spare, hey,
Then we fell all to prayer
And at last he did hear
Us in the Benjamin, O.

Although we sailed in fear,
Hey, boys, O, boys,
The Lord our ship did steer, hey
Our prayers so fervent were
That we had passage clear
Into brave Plymouth Sound, O.

When we came in Plymouth Sound,
Hey, boys, O, boys,
Our hearts did then resound, hey,
When we came in Plymouth Sound
Our grief with joy was crowned
In the poor Benjamin, O.

When we came all on shore,
Hey, boys, O, boys,
Every man at his door, hey,
When we came all on shore
Our grief we did deplore
In the brave Benjamin, O.

You gallant young men all,
Hey, boys, O, boys,
'Tis unto you I call, hey,
Likewise brave seamen all
Lament the loss and fall
Of the poor Benjamin, O

Come my noble hearts of gold,
Ay boys, O boys
That on Neptune's waves [have rolled], ay
Come my noble hearts of gold
Your ancient courage bold
Like the brave Benjamin, oh.

Then there's the 1907 version which I learned from the singing of Sarah Gray and Friends of Fiddler's Green back in 1968 which I'm still working on:

From the singing of Owen McBride, Sarah Gray & The Friends of Fiddlers Green Circa 1968, East Lansing, MI
BOLD BENJAMIN

Now, Admiral Cole has gone to sea,
Oh, me boys, ohh!
Now, Admiral Cole has gone to sea-o!
Brave Admiral Cole has gone to sea
With all our good ship's company,
On board the Bold Ben-ja-min, ohh!

We set sail for France and Spain,
Oh, me boys, ohh!
We set sail for France and Spain-o!
We set sail for France and Spain,
Our gold and silver to regain,
On board the Bold Benjamin, oh!

We set sail five hundred men,
Oh, me boys, ohh!
We set sail five hundred men-o!
We set sail five hundred men,
And we've come back but fifty-one,
They was lost on Bold Benjamin, oh!

And as we drew near Blackwall,
Oh, me boys, ohh!
And as we drew near Blackwall-o!
And as we drew near Blackwall,
Admiral Cole, loud did call:
"Here comes the Bold Benjamin, oh!"

Hear the mothers weeping for their sons,
Oh,me boys, ohh!
Hear the mothers weeping for their sons-o!
Hear the mothers weeping for their sons,
And the widows for their husbands,
They was lost on Bold Benjamin, oh!

The more modern ballad has been pared down and re-structured but they're still clearly related. Too bad we're missing some of the intermediary steps. (If anyone has any clues to them, please share).

Well, that's my mouthful for now!

---

12 Apr 01 - 01:59 PM (#439135)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.

'Fyvie, O' didn't get changed to 'Fennario'. They are independent reworkings of the Irish "Pretty Peggy of Derby O". There's an extensive history of these songs in the Scarce Songs 1 file on my website. It seems pretty certain now that the American version of the song was reworked by Rosina Emmit(Emmet), a famous American artist, (later married Sherwood) revised the broadside version for her song in 'Pretty Peggy and other Ballads', pp 4-15, Dodd, Mead & Company, New York, 1880, which is where the American traditional versions come from.

"Sir Walter Ralegh's Sailing in the Lowlands (Golden Vanity) was written about 100 years after the events it supposedly recounts (see the broadside ballad index on my website for the early copies)

Little Musgrave- Neither 'Groves' or 'Musgrave' are the original name in the broadside ballad entered in the Stationers' Register in 1630, it's 'Mousgroue' (see ZC81 in my broadside ballad index for the early broadside copies. That in the Pepys collection may be the original edition).

---

12 Apr 01 - 02:13 PM (#439147)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: Joy Bennett

Bruce O --what is your website address? or you could post a link here!! I'd live to visit!

Joy

---

12 Apr 01 - 02:31 PM (#439157)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: nutty

Remember troubadours, ballad writers, broadside sellers,etc were doing it as a way of making a living

They had to be good at what they were doing - make things interesting - make people listen/buy.

Again , it was oral tradition that changed the events and I'm not sure how accurate the reporting of the events would be

Sadly, things haven't changed much - just read the newspapers

---

12 Apr 01 - 02:51 PM (#439173)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.

"Bold Benjamin" is ZN464 in the broadside ballad index. [And can be found (a later printing) on the Bodley Ballads website.]
See also "Captain Hume is gone to sea", ZN465.
www.erols.com/olsonw

---

12 Apr 01 - 03:05 PM (#439183)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: Naemanson

Joy, there are other things to LIVE for than Bruce's website. Or maybe there isn't. Maybe that site is that good! ;)

Guess I'd better check it out.

---

12 Apr 01 - 03:10 PM (#439189)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: Malcolm Douglas

The "1907 version" posted by Roll&Go is presumably the one noted by H.E.D. Hammond from Mr. Taunton of Corscombe in Dorset in 1907.  (not "Mr. Taunton Corscombe", as the entry in the DT has it -see  Bold Benjamin).  The song and its antecedents were discussed in this thread, and Mr. Taunton's text quoted again:

The Bold Benjamin  Sara Grey and friends seem to have changed the words in some places.

Malcolm

---

12 Apr 01 - 03:14 PM (#439191)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: Kim C

It's my understanding that Sir John Cope did abandon his troops at Prestonpans. Once upon a time I could have been more specific but the details escape me just now. He did what we Civil War folk like to call "pulling a Gideon Pillow." (Pillow abandonded his troops to the Yankees at Fort Donelson in Tennessee. Bedford Forrest, however, said he had not gone there to surrender, and sneaked his troops out under cover of darkness.)

There have been several instances throughout recorded history of women masquerading as men for whatever reason, so I think some of those songs are rooted in fact, even if the songs themselves are not completely factual. Where there's smoke there's usually fire, or at least a few ashes.

---

12 Apr 01 - 03:25 PM (#439200)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.

Johnny Cope- My note on handwritten copy of the song, c 1749-50, in NLS MS 6299.

p 175. Cope sent a letter from Dunbar/ Johnny Cope/ 12 verses [Better readings than usual reprinted copy]

---

12 Apr 01 - 03:29 PM (#439204)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: Kim C

Maybe I am not entirely correct. Apparently he didn't "abandon" his troops, rather he "escaped" with a few hundred of them, leaving about 1500 to their deaths. (You decide what that means.) Anyway it appears to be pretty much true that Cope did carry the first news of his own defeat.

---

12 Apr 01 - 04:45 PM (#439283)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C

Malcolm, are the lyrics in the DT the same as the 1907 version; I've never seen that one in print. If the words are different, do you have a reference to the 1907 lyrics? I don't doubt that my own version has strayed from what I have on tape from Sarah Gray el al.

---

12 Apr 01 - 05:14 PM (#439298)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: Malcolm Douglas

Yes, the DT text is the 1907 one.  It was printed in the Penguin Book of English Folk Songs, and before that in the Journal of the Folk Song Society (Vol. III No. 11, 1907).  There's a midi of the tune as given in the Penguin Book at the Mudcat Midi Pages.

Malcolm

---

12 Apr 01 - 05:30 PM (#439307)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C

Thanks, Malcolm, I thirst for that Penguin Book of English Folk Songs.

---

12 Apr 01 - 07:27 PM (#439380)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: nutty

I'll put a copy in the Mudcat Auction. I'm sure I have two copies but I'll have to find them first. Watch this space

---

12 Apr 01 - 07:43 PM (#439388)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: Naemanson

But my primary question is how much do you think these songs, the personal ones, reflect our ancestors' lives. There are many songs about heartbreak and murder. Were these the only subjects that they were interested in?

Is it like TV and movies today? Only violence and sex were of interest? Is this a picture of humans that our interests have remained the same but our methods of expressing those interests have changed?

I acknowledge that a song of two lovers living in the "happily ever after" stage of their lives would not carry much interest. The question is, can we tell from the music how closely those people were touched by the subject of the songs. Did the songs make sense to them because they'd each heard stories about this or that lover killing his/her sweetheart? Did they know of instances like the False Knight who drowned ladies for their jewels? Or were these just stories to tittilate and scare the listener?

---

12 Apr 01 - 10:10 PM (#439461)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: sophocleese

Humour is far more ephemeral than tragedy. Jealous lovers, false lovers are easier to write/sing about in ways that everybody understands but writing a humourous song that takes the piss out of Nike and uses the phrase "Just do it!" is going to have limited interest beyond this year. I wouldn't use folk music for an accurate picture of what people thought or lived like anymore than I would take what comes out of Hollywood as an accurate reflection of the lives of most people at the moment. Despite what movies like to pretend people still spend an awful lot of their lives not thinking about movies. Like TV, older folk songs probably appeal to the lowest common denominator because in order for most of these songs to survive they had to appeal to the broadest audience, if they didn't interest enough people they weren't sung and they didn't get passed on.

---

12 Apr 01 - 10:14 PM (#439466)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: Malcolm Douglas

There were plenty of "happily ever after" songs, just as there were songs about sex and violence; the latter, however, tend to carry a deeper resonance and were certainly of more interest to, first, antiquarians and, later, song collectors and folklorists, though not always to the traditional singers!  The preoccupations of our ancestors were not so very different from our own, though.  "Long Lankin" was, or became, a bogey man used to frighten children, and ballads like The Outlandish Knight and George Collins turn up in song and story all over Europe (see, for example,  The Outlandish Knight [notes],  and  George Collins [notes].)

Anybody interested in all this should read Child's English and Scottish Popular Ballads; even more than a century on, there is no more comprehensive study of the narrative ballads.

Malcolm

---

12 Apr 01 - 11:05 PM (#439491)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: Luke

John Henry was a real man and he wooped the steam drill. There are folks alive today who claim to be decendants of eye witnesses to the actual event.

Not so sure about if he actually died of a broken heart though. There is quite a large John Henry site which I'm sure I cannot tell you how to find other than a search.

Luke

---

12 Apr 01 - 11:33 PM (#439502)
Subject: Lyr Add: BOGIE'S BONNY BELLE
From: toadfrog

This is a song that really should be on DT.
BOGIE'S BONNY BELLE
Traditional

'Twas on a day in Huntley Toon, 'twas there I did agree
Wi' a Bogie sided fairmer a twelvemonth for to fee.
Old Bogie was a greedy man and that I knew full well,
But he also had a daughter. Her name was Isabelle.

Old Bogie had a daughter and her name was Isabelle
The lily of the valley and the primrose of the dell.
And when she went a-walking she choosed me for her guide,
Doon by the burn o' Kiarnie to watch the fishes glide.

When three long months were past and gone, the lassie lost her bloom.
The red fell from her bonny cheeks, and her eyes began to swoon.
And when nine months were past and gone, she brought forth to me a son,
And I was quickly sent for, to see what could be done.

I said that I would marry her, but oh no, that could nae be,
Sayin' you're nae match for my bonny Belle, and she's nae match for me.

So, noo she's married wi' a tinker chap, and he bides in Huntley Toon.
He mends pots and pans and paraffin lamps, and he scours the country round.

Maybe she's got a better match, Old Bogie can nae tell,
Fare ye weel, ye lads of Huntleyside and Bogie's bonny Belle.

The song is sung by Belle Stewart, the McPeakes and Ewan MacColl. I've forgotten how MacColl's version goes. The above is the mishmash of Stewart and McPeake versions that stuck in my memory. JWM

---

12 Apr 01 - 11:36 PM (#439504)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: dick greenhaus

Toadfrog- Just try a DigiTrad search for Bogie's. It's there.

---

12 Apr 01 - 11:56 PM (#439508)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.

"Laird of the Dainty Doon By" is but one of several English and Scottish ballads descended from "The Western Knight" in Scarce Songs 2 on my website. {It's followed by "Bonnie May".} Many of these are there noted.

---

12 Apr 01 - 11:59 PM (#439512)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: Joy Bennett

Malcolm - would that I could get my own copy of the works -- I have searched in vain --- not a one to be had.

---

13 Apr 01 - 12:24 AM (#439528)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.

Joy, you have to keep looking. Sandy Paton posted notices of Child's collection for sale here not very long ago.

---

13 Apr 01 - 01:26 AM (#439562)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.

What a mess! You can find the Ballad-L Archives with Google, and look under Feb. 1999. 2 Sam Bass tune sections and the Wondrous Love tune one. But the latter is all screwed up. Many of the Wondrous Love posts are missing (including mine), and some posts there are from a different subject.

---

13 Apr 01 - 02:14 AM (#439579)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.

Ed Cray's 1611 prototype for "Captain Kidd" Click

---

13 Apr 01 - 08:47 AM (#439667)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: Malcolm Douglas

Many public libraries have sets of Child; the main one here in Sheffield, for example, and the University library too, of course.  Inter-library loans, if you're in the UK, would work; other countries have similar arrangements.  I managed to scan the first two volumes and put image files on CD from library copies, but finally got myself a set of the Dover reprints at a good price from a secondhand bookshop in Australia.  Shipping to the UK cost almost as much as the books, but it was still a bargain compared to the usual prices they go for.  A Dover set can be as much as $750 -£520 or so- or more, but they do turn up at affordable prices from time to time if you check the listings regularly.  http://www.bookfinder.com/  is probably the most useful search facility, as it checks a number of online catalogues including Advanced Book Exchange, Bibliofind and so on.

Malcolm

---

13 Apr 01 - 09:24 AM (#439691)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: GUEST,Landlady's Daughter

Toadfrog, I've also been fascinated by the "Lamkin" ballad, clear evidence of the danger of angering your contractor by not paying your bills on time. Sorry, but the lord of the manor had only himself to blame for being unwilling to sell off the south forty.

---

13 Apr 01 - 09:52 AM (#439701)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: Joy Bennett

thanks Malcolm -- those sites are very dangerous for me - I am a book nut. And I'm running out of space!

---

13 Apr 01 - 10:17 AM (#439710)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.

Sorry, my last two post above shoul have been in the "My loves in Germany" thread.

---

13 Apr 01 - 11:38 AM (#439773)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: Malcolm Douglas

I know just what you mean, Joy.  I'm off out tomorrow to buy some more shelving...

---

13 Apr 01 - 11:45 AM (#439779)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: Naemanson

SHELVING! Malcolm! You have room left for shelving? :)

---

13 Apr 01 - 11:50 AM (#439782)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: Malcolm Douglas

Only just.  It's going on top of some more that doesn't quite reach the ceiling yet...

---

13 Apr 01 - 12:12 PM (#439809)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: GUEST,Jim Krause

A couple of years back, I heard a report on NPR by a folklorist whose name I have since, alas, forgotten. His subject was the well known murder ballad Pretty Polly. It seems that in 1726 in the fishing village of Gossport on the southern coast of England a rather sensational murder did occur. (Our English Mudcatters can correct my geography and spelling. I did look up the town once, and don't have an atlas nearby at the moment.) Anyway, out of this crime of domestic abuse, the girl was in the family way, came our ballad. The exact details of the historic crime escape me, but rather than getting off free, as in some versions of the ballad, Willie, as he's called was hanged for the murder. The broadside ballad writers went to work, and we have another murdered girl ballad.

Well, that's the story aa I remember hearing it.
Jim

---

13 Apr 01 - 02:03 PM (#439907)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: GUEST,Bruce O.

Please Jim Krause, try to remember the name of the folklorist. That history is very interesting to me and I'd very much like to verify it. Broadside copies of "The Gosport Tragedy" are listed at ZN1429 in the broadside ballad index on my website and an ABC of its tune is B367 in the broadside ballad tunes there [I long ago took J. W. Ebworth's atribution of the song to Laurence Price to be nonsense. Price's most recent ballads were of 1658, and he was at least 50 years old then.]

---

14 Apr 01 - 02:03 PM (#440545)
Subject: RE: Traditional Music Question
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C

This was just getting interesting! Refresh!

---