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22 Apr 01 - 11:47 AM (#446613) Subject: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Peter T. Multiple questions, actually. I have begun to connect the notes of a melody to the main chords that operate in each key, as a prelude both to accompanying the songs, and maybe doing a little improvisation. It has taken this idea a long time to get through my thick head. Questions: How do you know when a song is heading off into a different key? Or, more subtly, presuming that the pattern of the notes is what is creating the different key as it evolves, how many notes do you need before you shift into the chords of the new key (supposing the notes are in a key not too far away from your starter key) as an accompaniest? Obviously you can leap in and state a new key right off, but is there normally a transition that alerts the ear that we are moving off into new terrain? Next, what is the relationship between the standard patterns of chords (III-VI-II-V-I) in jazz, etc., and the movement of notes in a song? Do songs with those chords attached naturally have a melody that falls into that pattern? The books all talk as if this pattern is part of a powerful chordal system, but am I right in presuming that the real structure is in (or being evoked by) the melody? yours, Peter T. |
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22 Apr 01 - 12:11 PM (#446618) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Indy Lass Often the shift in key is just a half step up from the original key. I've often noted that arrangers will do this to add more "dimention" to the melody and it's usually the last one or two verses in the lyrics or tune. |
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22 Apr 01 - 01:35 PM (#446679) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: harpgirl In spite of being overeducated, I don't consider myself to be the sharpest too in the shed. Having said that, Peter, I think your questions are too complex for the answers I'm offering. Many popular songs do not change keys. The key stays the same unless they modulate (change keys). Then you hear a sharp drop or raising of the melody line. Yo must also count the beat pattern in a song. A waltz has three beats to a measure. A jig has six beats. Thus you might have six notes a measure in a jig. Or you would have three notes to a measure in a waltz. You might change chords after a measure. Or you might change chords after a series of beats of three such as in Susan's song "Green Pastures." Many tunes have just two parts, the A part and the B part. One is usually the verse and the other the chorus. There is a definite rhythmic mathematical pattern to most ordinary songs. And knowing the tempo helps to hear the correct tune, as well. Tempo is very slow like 60 in a blues song, to very fast like 128 in a rock song. I hope I am not talking down to you and that your questions are serious. Does this help? As for the circle of fifths, I am woefully uninformed about theory. But many are I, IV V, I. I can just hear the notes, chord changes and patterns to most ordinary songs... |
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22 Apr 01 - 01:58 PM (#446696) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Peter T. Well, let me try and ask a simpler version of one question. There are songs that seem to follow a standard pattern, and others which have "accidentals" or wander around. Some of this must be a key change, or wandering away from a key into no man's land. Do you know you are in a new/old key when the progressions sober up and go back to normal? For instance. Take a song like "Cockles and Mussels" beginning on D, but mostly in G ("Through...Dublin's...D-G). The chord structure then goes on (in my little book): G -Em - Am -D7(Thro Dublin's fair city, where girls are so pretty -- all happily in G) G - Bm - A7 - D (Twas there I first met my sweet Molly Malone...) The first two are in G, the next two are in something else or nothing, or are they accidentals in G? They look as if they are veering off into a key like D) G-Em-Am-D7 (And back to the first). My question is: if I didn't have the chord book in front of me, how would I know what chords to put to the notes in that second line? Hunt around? That is what I was doing before. This seems to happen all the time in songs that are even remotely complicated. yours, Peter T. |
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22 Apr 01 - 02:31 PM (#446711) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: harpgirl Well, I would play that like this (C) In Dublin'...(Amin)city...(Dmin)girls....(C)first...(A7)eyes...(D7)Molly....Ma(G7)lone...as she (C)wheels...her wheel bar(Amin)row....(Dmin)streets...nar(g7)row..crying(c)cockles...(Gdim or Amin)mussels (Dmin Amin G C) a live alive oh chorus (c)A live alive o (amin), a (dmin)live a live (G7) oh crying (c) and (Amin)mussels (dmin)a live a G7 live (C)o There are no key changes. All these chords are logical to the key of C. |
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22 Apr 01 - 03:01 PM (#446732) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Bernard There are basically two types of 'modulation' (key change). One, as in your 'Molly Malone' example, is a 'passing modulation' where the new key is suggested, then the original key is restored. It is still technically a modulation, as it happens at the end of a line (cadence point). The other is a 'true modulation', where the tune literally changes key. It's not usual for a tune as short as a song verse to completely change key, but it's common for the 'B' music to be in a different key from the 'A' (and possibly the 'C' if there is one). A good example of this is the 'Skye Boat Song' - the chorus ('A' music) is in G, and the verse ('B' music) is in E minor. This song is a little unusual, because the chorus is more usually the 'B' with the verse being the 'A'... In this example, G is the major key, and E minor is the 'relative minor'. They share the same key signature, but it is still a modulation as G and E minor are not the same key. This is also a good example of two ways to modulate. From the Chorus to the verse it is a sudden change, but from the verse back to the chorus, the IV and V chords are used to 'suggest' the key change before it happens. I'm sorry if this gets a bit too technical... If you need more clarification, tell me which bits you don't follow, or ask more questions! Examples are always the best way! |
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22 Apr 01 - 03:27 PM (#446741) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Les B Peter - I'm not a music scholar, and can barely read notes, but here are a couple of ideas. It sounds like you're mixing up CHORDS with the KEY. A song in the key of C, for instance, would generally have the chords of C, F, G (or G7) and sometimes the relative minor to C, which is Am. There are books which lay out which common chords go in each key. A fairly good way to find the KEY of a piece of music is to go the last note of the song. A song or tune normally (but not always) ends on the tonic or "home" note; ie - C, for the key of C. Or, if you've really astute, you can look at the beginning of the staff line and see how many sharps or flats (# or b) are indicated. This can also tell you the key. All I remember is that C has no sharps or flats. There are books that can clue you in to this system. But, what you're asking is something I have often wondered too. How do you know where the melody notes indicate a chord change ? Most of us in folk music learned the "three chord trick" - once you know the key, your ear tells you which of the other two chords needs to be played. How, I don't know. You just hear it. Some songs, and some old time fiddle tunes can be done with just one or two chords. Moving up in complexity, from the simple three chord songs, I suspect a music scholar will tell you that each note in any melody could have a variety of note clusters (a chord) that would sound more or less pleasing to the ear, and would harmonize and offer a "color" or "mood" - like all the minor chords and sevenths in Cockles & Mussels. That takes a little more ear training. Then you're approaching jazz. What might be interesting for you to do is find a piece of music with simple chords and melody written out. Go through and determine which notes of the scale - a,b,c,d,e,f,g - the chord symbol is over. That might give you some insight and pattern ideas as to why the chord changes there. I'll quit now - probably really muddied the waters. |
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22 Apr 01 - 04:10 PM (#446770) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Peter T. Thanks all, this is all food for playing. It turns out that I am doing what you suggest, Les -- I am playing melodies with standard chords attached so I can see how the progressions mesh with the melodies. What I was asking was how the cluster of possible chords that sound O.K. around a particular note are somehow turned into a standard progression, and sometimes wander into a new key. The old I,IV, V is pretty obvious, but the rest aren't. I also have a lousy ear (I cannot hear the changes in most folk songs -- this causes Rick Fielding terrible grief in our lessons). yours, Peter T. P.S. harpgirl, why should D7 and A7 be logical to C? The logicals are Dmin and Amin. |
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22 Apr 01 - 04:15 PM (#446777) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: harpgirl well, I mean they fit, is all Peter. |
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22 Apr 01 - 04:54 PM (#446811) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Gary T Peter, I don't think a key change is what you're dealing with. All of the chords in your example are legitimately used in the key of G. As to how to know which chords to use, yes, hunt around--but hunt with a map. I'm no expert on this, but I have read that the melody is rooted in the chord structure. This may take the form of our subconsciously being attracted to melody lines which fit in with certain chord patterns--we may think of the melody first, but the chords are there, just waiting to be let out. Chords commonly seen in popular music, in a rough overall descending order of frequency, would be I, V, IV, V7, VIm, IIm, IIIm, I7, II7, III7, VI7, IV7, IVm, VIIb, IIIb, VIb...there's more, but the point is, the I, IV, & V7 chords are found more often than the VIm, IIIm, & IIm chords, which are found more often than the VIIb, IIIb, & VIb chords. It helps to have these possibilities and probabilities in mind when looking for the next chord. One thing that can really guide you is the circle of fifths. Click here for a nice web page diagram with helpful notes. This is probably the "powerful chordal structure" you read about. Note how the IV & V are on either side of the I. If you jump from I to III and come back to I one step at a time, there's the jazz sequence you mentioned. In the other direction from I, you'll find the less common VIIb, IIIb, & VIb. The chord directly across from I is virtually never used. It is very rare to have a song that spans more than six adjacent points on the cirlce. For example, if it has a III, it's a pretty sure bet it won't have a VIIb. Sometimes it works through its range on the circle a step or two at a time, sometimes it jumps around haphazardly. As far as actually changing keys, there's no single way. Take "Lemon Tree" a la Peter, Paul, and Mary. It goes from D to G to C. Other songs are often done with each verse a half step up the preceding one; or only the last verse going up, by a whole step. Some change key in the chorus, going to the IV or V key, and come back to the original key for each verse. Sometimes a key change is signaled by a 7th chord, but not always. Well, that's probably more than I actually know about it (BG). I hope that addressed what you were looking for. |
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22 Apr 01 - 05:01 PM (#446817) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Gary T One point I left out. If you're looking at a "II" chord, for example, don't just stop at the tonic chord. Try a II7, IIm, IIm7, etc. I don't think it helps to look at what's "logical" to a key but rather what's permissible. For example, in the key of C, D or D7 is just as apt as Dm, and perhaps more common in some genres. |
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22 Apr 01 - 05:09 PM (#446824) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Peter T. Thanks, Gary. I wonder if the chord implies the melody or vice versa. Probably it has something to do with the overall key cluster or something. My question may be just too metaphysical -- which wouldn't be the first time. I wonder when I am hearing a standard jazz piece if the melody is working through the progression somehow as it goes (e.g. through the circle of fifths is one, but only one) yours, Peter T. |
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22 Apr 01 - 05:22 PM (#446834) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: WyoWoman Enjoying this discussion a great deal. NOthing brilliant to add, but I bookmarked that site, GaryT, and will undoubtedly use it, although, ironically, probably after I get my keyboard unpacked and can sit and noodle through all those chords on a keyboard. The guitar still doesn't make much sense to me, although I plunk meanginfully from time to time. At any rate, I've wondered about ideas in this general neighborhood as well and I'm having fun consideriing what all y'all are saying. ww |
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22 Apr 01 - 05:27 PM (#446841) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Justa Picker Peter, you might want to have a look at some of these links as well. Music Theory Online Music Theory For Song Writers Music Arranging Online Chord Wizard - Music Theory |
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22 Apr 01 - 05:38 PM (#446845) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: M.Ted Peter, There is no key change in the melody,Peter--(at least if the melody is the same as the one we all learned as children)--the key change is in the chordal accompaniment, which is an arrangment trick that was quite common in the popular music of the late 19th century--it doesn't actually need to be there but it can be there because the melody note (which is an A) occurs in both the key of G, in the Dominant harmony (D7 or Am chords--either of which your ear will tell you should be there) and in the A7 chord which is the dominant of the key of D, and would be an acceptable chord to play relative to that note if you actually were playing in the key of D (which is the chord where the melody ends up at the end of the phrase). There was a certain effect that they really liked, which was to provide a chromatic flavor(movement by half steps that are out of the original key) in either the melodic or harmonic lines (as a guitar player, you are in the habit of thinking in terms of the melody and the chords, but each time you change chords each note moves to another note, creating a number of subordinate melodies, which, if you were so inclined, you could pull out and assign to other instruments or to singers). You could actually trade that Bm for an E7 and emphasize the chromatic effect--and you are right, it is something that is much used in Jazz, which will, on occasion, use a chord that the melody note plays a very tangential part in-- Most folk melodies don't have actual key changes (though they do modulate, often to relative minor or dominant, for instance), so the ear chord progressions correspond to diatonic changes, though it is relatively easy to use some simple rules of substitution to calculate expanded chord progressions--there are a whole class of poplular melodies that incorporate key changes, though, which is to say that there are accidentals and chromatic elements in the melody rather than in the harmony alone--mostly from the ragtime era and after, but not necessarily ragtime tunes. These changes often are fairly predicatable, because they follow the circle of fourths/fifths, it is best to memorize a number of the songs, chord progression and all, before you try to figure out what is happening in terms of harmony-- I just noticed that Bernard and I used the same word, modulate, to mean two different things, Bernard means a key change, and I mean a change of the tone center within the same diatonic scale--I think we differ on whether the change to a relative minor is really a key change or not, but this is a semantic difference-- After all this, I am not sure if I helped or just made things more confusing--anyway, I think that it will be easier if you just tell us what you are trying to do, musically, and see if we can explain how you can do it--maybe that way, we can keep the theory from getting in the way--
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22 Apr 01 - 06:10 PM (#446864) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: M.Ted A caveat, and that is that some of those sites don't explain things very well, and some don't explain what you really need to know(often times, when you are learning about theory and such things, the question that you ask leads to an answer that doesn't really help you--) |
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22 Apr 01 - 06:31 PM (#446883) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Bernard Just thought I'd mention I'm a qualified music teacher - went to college, etc., and the terminology I use came therefrom!! So I'm not expressing an opinion here! A cadence point 'suggests' a key change/modulation, and that has to happen in the melody - the chords naturally follow. Chords can be used to alter what is suggested by the melody, but the end of each phrase is a cadence point, and the melody has modulated/changed key if the chord which best fits is not the tonic. 'Key change' and 'modulation' are, by definition, one and the same. Key tonality is defined by the scale appropriate to that key; G major is a completely different scale from E minor (harmonic or melodic), and therefore a different key. They are related by key signature, but E minor has D# in both of its scales, G major does not. Don't get me wrong - I'm not having a dig at anyone!! Being a bit pedantic, maybe!!
;o) |
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22 Apr 01 - 09:45 PM (#446991) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: M.Ted You are having a dig at me Bernard. But I will overlook it, because you seem to have been absent on the day that they discussed the E natural minor scale, which doesn't have a D# in it. As it is, I happened to look modulation about a minute ago in the Harper-Collins dictionary of music, and found the points that you made, laid out as you did with some additions--true to a point, but they really don't address Peter's problem (and if it wasn't for Peter, we would have very few discussions of this sort) Anyway, I went to music school too. I even studied composition. Unfortunately, the theory doesn't account for what is played very well--especially when it comes to f9lk music.
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22 Apr 01 - 10:23 PM (#447008) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Mary in Kentucky Peter, I think I understand one of your questions because I have the same question. You said... I wonder if the chord implies the melody or vice versa. I've noticed that I think differently about a song if I hear just the chords on a guitar or dulcimer, or if I hear it in an ensemble with a soprano-type melody line. In other words, I can listen to someone play the chords to a song, and I can sing another melody. Sometimes this is just harmony, but other times it is a descant or a melody in itself. I wonder what distinguishes a melody from just harmony. It seems that the melody moves more and can somehow stand alone...whatever. "They" say that some composers (Mozart) could just write stand-alone melodies. I think maybe he was so steeped in his tradition that he "heard" the underlying chord progressions. Jazz progressions are for the most part foreign to me so I could not improvise easily. Gary and Justa Picker, thanks for the links. I'm always looking for open sharing of knowledge and information...and a bit suspicious of anyone who obfuscates info. Mary PS Peter, I'm still trying to formulate those half-baked ideas I mentioned in a PM. I wonder if anyone has analyzed various chord progressions or types of progressions. Remember the cycle of fifths and the pendulum swings to either side of the tonic with ever decreasing swings. Then the John Denver linear chord progression...I'm sure there are other ways to verbalize this. |
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22 Apr 01 - 10:23 PM (#447010) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: M.Ted I meant folk music--f9lk music is outside the scope of the Mudcat forum-- |
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22 Apr 01 - 10:30 PM (#447015) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Sorcha And I thought I knew theory.......LOL!!
Some things I have pulled out of this: As a fiddler, I usually only use I,IV and VII to chop with...lazy, I guess.
Remember, too, that keys are related (Circle of 5ths) Wish we could tie this in with the "What is a Key" thread......I think I'm glad I'm not a guitar player....all those strings, all those chords.('nother grin) |
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22 Apr 01 - 11:32 PM (#447046) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: GUEST,Bruce O. Peter's qustion is really a good one. The notions of chords now has sort of become the tail that wags the dog. It was between about 1575 and 1600 that professioal composers gave up on all but major and minor modes, because the other were too hard to write harmonies for. It seems to me that this is practical proof that melodies came first (for about a millenium) before harmonies were considered a nice frill. Traditonal singers singing to instrumental in the British- American milieu, seems to have started in the south and west of the USA in the 1920s. That as yet to be noted in the Bitish Isles. Traditional singing to instrumental accompaniment is older in some other countries.
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22 Apr 01 - 11:38 PM (#447049) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Marion Peter, here is another thread you might want to look through; I asked what the connection was between a section of melody and its accompanying chord. working out chords - through theory? Marion |
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22 Apr 01 - 11:43 PM (#447050) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: toadfrog Without being learned about theory, I suggest that folk songs (or European and American ones, anyway) don't modulate. They stay in one key, so the question is, when to change chords. Joe Offer had a very good answer to that one on a recent thread, maybe someone remembers which. "Chord progressions" are useful in understanding jazz. Blues has 3 or 4 simple chord progressions; jazz has more complicated. But in other Western music, the organizing principle is tonality, and the chords (if any) derive from the tune, not vice versa. |
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22 Apr 01 - 11:53 PM (#447057) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: WyoWoman Mary -- what do you mean about "stand-alone melodies"? For me, the melody is the easy part. It's all that other stuff that comes up underneath, over and around it that make me twitch ... (And hello, by the way. Nice to visit again after such a long absence ... ) ww |
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23 Apr 01 - 12:09 AM (#447068) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Mary in Kentucky WW, ya caught me in one of my "half-baked" ideas. Some people can just sing (compose) a melody out of the blue. I have to have a chord structure to pull any kind of creativity out of me. I suspect that even prior to Bruce's 1575/1600 dates, people somehow gravitated to certain sequences of notes which just happened to also be harmonized by certain chord progressions. (or did that really come later, Bruce?) Maybe Bruce can also explain some of the physics that correlates to what we historically discovered (evolved) that just sounded good. When will we hear your sweet voice again on PalTalk? |
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23 Apr 01 - 12:14 AM (#447071) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: M.Ted I think Bruce makes an important, and often overlooked point,(if I'd have thought of it, it would have been easier to write my first response) the melodies to folk songs were predominantly sung unaccompanied--the guitar accompaniment(and the four part vocal harmonies, at least as we know them) are a fairly recent, and generally "commercial" addition--Until the time of the field recording, most of the folk music that was collected tended to have been "evened out" following the rules of common pratice classical music by the people who transcribed it, sometimes just because they had no good way of notating what they heard, sometimes because they believed what they heard was "wrong", and sometimes because they just didn't hear what was being sung-- For chordal acompaniments, the commercial arrangers simply create an accompaniment that conforms to the sound of whatever is popular--Leaving us with things like Glenn Miller's swing version of Little Brown Jug and Nirvana's grunge version of In the Pines--Either one of them could have done the same to Sweet Molly Malone, leaving us with chords that probably wouldn't reflect much of the melody-- |
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23 Apr 01 - 12:17 PM (#447361) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Peter T. Thank you to all for the high quality of the discussion. I am particularly taken with MTed's reference to pulling out subordinate melodies from the possible chords, which really helps explain counterpoint and some of voice leading. I assume that one way of tricking the brain is by linking up chords that gradually imply another key while they are still supporting the notes in the original key. I can't imagine doing it, but I can see the potential. I found, in a book of Jazz Theory by Stanton (can't remember his first name, but it is easily the best and clearest book I have ever read), a really simple idea that I had never heard, and which will be obvious to all you music scholars, which is that one reason why a chord like C. a chord like Am, and a chord like Em (the I, VI, III chords in the key of C) can be often substituted for each other is that they share a couple of notes with each other!!!!! like C-E-G for C, E-G-B for Em, A-C-E for Am; just as the II and the IV can substitute on occasion. I know that sounds really infantile, but it was news to me!! yours, Peter T. |
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23 Apr 01 - 01:46 PM (#447430) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: M.Ted They are part of the Tonic harmony, and, actually, you can add the C, they become C-E-G-B (cmaj7), or C-E-G-A (C6). and if you alternate them in a place where there would be a continuous C, you can create a moving line-- |
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23 Apr 01 - 02:42 PM (#447487) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Peter T. Kenneth Stanton, Jazz Theory, 1982 (New York: Taplinger). Never reprinted, a Godsend. Arne Berle's books good too. Not too complicated. yours, Peter T. |
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23 Apr 01 - 07:23 PM (#447687) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Bernard I've never heard the 'descending melodic minor' referred to as the 'natural minor'... I'm assuming that's what you mean, M! It's certainly not so named in the Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music theory syllabus!! Unless, of course, we are crossing into dangerous territory... modes... perish the thought! I've been missing on this discussion - busy at work, then my daughter's birthday. Still, not to worry! The 'chord progressions' idea mentioned above is fundamental to improvisation, which is the essence of Blues and Jazz; rather than take a melody and find some chords, the reverse happens - a fairly rigid chord structure provides the basis for extemporisation of a melody. Often, the melody follows the chord structure very loosely!! It's ironic that Blues was originally a predominantly unaccompanied singing style... these days unaccompanied blues is a comparative rarity! Still, that's another story... |
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23 Apr 01 - 09:21 PM (#447754) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: M.Ted Well, Bernard, maybe the Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music don't get out as often as the used to-- Curious if you actually are serious in your assertion--or you are justing putting one over on us--though your comments on Jazz and Blues leave me less than hopeful that it is the latter-- |
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23 Apr 01 - 11:41 PM (#447842) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: M.Ted maybe the Associated Board of the Royal Schools of Music don't get out as often as they used to-- |
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24 Apr 01 - 03:52 PM (#448361) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Bernard It's quite possible - they are very old, y'know... |
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24 Apr 01 - 05:57 PM (#448453) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Peter T. And have been known to play around with minors.... |
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24 Apr 01 - 06:01 PM (#448458) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Sorcha I thought that was "mirrors", Peter, (grin) |
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24 Apr 01 - 06:16 PM (#448473) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Mary in Kentucky A friend of mine has salt-and-pepper hair like me (but more salt!) When he went for his pilot's physical and listed his hair as "auburn," the examining physician said, "I don't know what kind of magic mirror you have, but this is last year you get by with that one." |
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25 Apr 01 - 04:28 PM (#449284) Subject: RE: Music Theory/Arrangement Question? From: Bernard Must be nice to have hair! At my age it's quite prolific in the ears and nostrils, but on top of my head?! |