BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY

11 May 01 - 08:11 AM (#460334)
Subject: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: GUEST

Bush tax-give-away vote Yea: 53, Nay: 47

Hall of Shame

Baucus (D-MT), Yea
Breaux (D-LA), Yea
Cleland (D-GA), Yea
Miller (D-GA), Yea
Nelson (D-NE), Yea

----

Hall of Fame

Chafee (R-RI), Nay
Jeffords (R-VT), Nay

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11 May 01 - 12:46 PM (#460530)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: GUEST,Guest

You ignorant pansy. The Bush tax cut is so small as to really hack me off but it is a damn sight better than I am going to get from the Democrats. You must be the most uninformed moron on the planet to oppose even this miniscule return of the excess taxes your government has wrested from its' citizens. Go Away!

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11 May 01 - 03:27 PM (#460605)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: Little Hawk

Oh, come on now...

"the most uninformed moron on the planet"? I don't think so. Do you realize how stringent the requirements are to qualify for such a title, and how stiff the competition is in the USA, let alone in the entire world??? The likelihood of such an august presence actually posting on one of these Bushwhacked threads is practically nil.

I think you should take a course in statistics before making such wild and unfounded statements.

- LH

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11 May 01 - 08:08 PM (#460760)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: kendall

Here we go again!

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11 May 01 - 08:10 PM (#460762)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: MAV

Hall of Fame

Chafee (R-RI), Nay
Jeffords (R-VT), Nay

These two panty-hose wearing, toilet seat licking, liberal RINOs have a lot of damn gall referring to themselves as Republicans.

The projections are:

Over next Ten Years

Estimated Revenue.....$28 Trillion
Estimated Excess...... 5 Trillion
So-called Tax cut..... 1.35 Trillion

BIG BLEEPING DEAL!!!

There seems to be some misunderstanding about the proposed tax cuts, like who gets the most ect. Perhaps this might illustrate the point...........

Every night, ten men met at a restaurant for dinner. At the end of the meal, the bill would arrive. They owed $100 for the food that they shared.

Every night they lined up in the same order at the cash register. The first four men paid nothing at all. The fifth, grumbling about the unfairness of the situation, paid $1. The sixth man, feeling very generous, paid $3.

The next three men paid $7, $12 and $18, respectively.

The last man was required to pay the remaining balance, $59. He realized that he was forced to pay for not only his own meal but the unpaid balance left by the first five men.

The ten men were quite settled into their routine when the restaurant threw them into chaos by announcing that it was cutting its prices. Now dinner for the ten men would only cost $80.

This clearly would not affect the first four men. They still ate for free. The fifth and sixth men both claimed their piece of the $20 right away. The fifth decided to forgo his $1 contribution. The sixth pitched in $2. The seventh man deducted $2 from his usual payment and paid $5. The eighth man paid $9. The ninth man paid $12, leaving the last man with a bill of $52.

Outside of the restaurant, the men began to compare their savings, and angry outbursts began to erupt.

The sixth man yelled, "I only got $1 out of the $20, and he got 7, "pointing at the last man.

The fifth man joined in. "Yeah! I only got $1 too. It is unfair that he got seven times more than me."

The seventh man cried, "Why should he get $7 back when I only got $2?"

The nine men formed an outraged mob, surrounding the 10th man. The first four men followed the lead of the others: "We didn't get any of the $20. Where is our share?"

The nine angry men carried the tenth man up to the top of a hill and lynched him.

The next night, the nine remaining men met at the restaurant for dinner. But when the bill came, there was no one to pay.

mav out

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11 May 01 - 09:03 PM (#460785)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: RichM

MAV, don't you ever play music? Or at least post about it?

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11 May 01 - 09:39 PM (#460806)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: Uncle Jaque

Actually, Rich, he does... and he's pretty good at it as a matter of fact. Since this is a plainly marked "BS" thread, we're not limited to a strictly "music" topic, are we?
If you take the time to examine other threads in which MAV was a participant, you will discover that some others who assumed him to a musical imposter got quite a surprise when the conversation got around to the subject - particularly as it relates to swing, blues, and classic Jazz. He has performed professional gigs in all sorts of places, recorded with his band, and has opened for some people you might know.
If you want to spout off on Socialist ideaology or run down American traditions and values that have contributed to this country's relative liberty and prosperity for the past 200 years, or advocate a "utopian" way of life that has led to only squalor, tyranny and genocide every place it has been tried, then don't be surprised if you hear from us about it on that topical venue. Should you, on the other hand, ever want to discuss musical issues within the area of our particular interests and expertise (it shouldn't take you long to run a trace on us and find out what those are) on a legitimate music - topic thread, we'll be there for you.

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11 May 01 - 11:19 PM (#460851)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: GUEST

If you take the time to examine other threads in which MAV was a participant, Jaque-off, you will discover that he's an obnoxious,simple-minded,loud-mouthed racist piece of shite and whether or not he can perform swing, blues, and classic Jazz on a nose-flute jammed up his arse or not changes that not one whit.

That way of life that has led to only squalor, tyranny and genocide every place it has been tried is called Capitalism, no? As in "I'm All Right, Jaque?

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11 May 01 - 11:21 PM (#460854)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: Little Hawk

Both socialism and capitalism have led to "squalor, tyranny, and genocide" in quite a variety of places (like throughout the 3rd world, the so-called "Free World", and in many of the former Communist states). Squalor is found in most inner cities in the developed world also, including the USA. Both socialism and capitalism (or combinations of the two) have also led to better conditions in quite a number of places.

Idealogues, however, have just gotta have it all their way, regardless which side of the fence they are standing on, it seems...

The United States is relatively prosperous because of many, many factors...some of them geographical, some of them historical, many of them having to do with neither socialism nor capitalism in any exclusive sense.

There are some countries in Europe which are also quite prosperous, while managing to be far more socialist than the USA. The Scandinavian countries, for example.

Again, this is due to a great variety of historical, cultural, and geographical factors.

Life is not meant to be simply an endless harangue between socialists and capitalists.

At least, not for me it isn't. I consider it an empty debate at this point.

The vital thing isn't whether you have socialism or capitalism, but how you go about implementing them, and with what safeguards and legal structures in place to protect and secure basic human rights.

- LH

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11 May 01 - 11:30 PM (#460859)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: Little Hawk

GUEST - Why, oh why, do you Brits insist on using the word "shite" in place of its usual 4 letter equivalent? Is it a euphemism, or is it supposed to be cool or something? Why do you do it? Tell me.

- LH

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11 May 01 - 11:46 PM (#460863)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: SeanM

Wait... I think I've figured it out...

MAV and the GUESTS are actually the same person, on a quest to make political threads so pointlessly disgusting that everyone will quit the 'cat, leaving whoever that sad individual is alone so that they may then start posting rants about "why aren't there more musical (or ANY) posts on the Mudcat?".

It's working for me. I'm referring to those as "jackass posts" and not going farther than the name. Having had my fill, I don't see any reason to give the posts any more respect than that.

I'm out.

M

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12 May 01 - 12:22 AM (#460873)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: Little Hawk

MAV - Those 10 men you mentioned...they don't eat in the same restaurant.

The first 4 can't afford to eat in most restaurants. Two of them live on the street and eat out of garbage cans. The other 2 can occasionally afford something at Burger King or Taco Bell. The 5th man eats at MacDonalds and at the local greasy spoon. The 6th and 7th eat at Swiss Chalet. The 8th and 9th eat at the hotel and Howard Johnson's.

The 10th guy eats at the Waldorf Astoria, and sometimes in Monaco or Paris. Being a CEO of a multinational corporation, he can easily move his money around the world to tax-free havens that the other 9 guys don't even know about, let alone have any access to. His corporation used to employ American workers, but in recent years it laid most of them off and moved their jobs to Mexico and the Phillipines, where the workers are treated like slaves and paid almost nothing. In the meantime, the actual products which the other 9 guys buy from his corporation have doubled in price. His stock has tripled in value, not surprisingly.

He's in no danger whatsoever of being lynched, because the other 9 guys have never met him, and don't even know his name.

You see how the analogy starts to break down...

- LH

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12 May 01 - 09:08 AM (#460962)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: GUEST,Brit

HAWK- Why, oh why, do you Colonial gits insist on mis-spelling colour and practise and a host of other common English words?

Is it simple ignorance, or is it supposed to be cool or something? Why do you do it? Tell me.

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12 May 01 - 09:15 AM (#460966)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: kendall

Where is the "F" in lieutenant? Little Hawk, I couldn't have said it better myself.

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12 May 01 - 12:04 PM (#461011)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: Little Hawk

GUEST, Brit - It's those bloody stupid gits in the USA who mispell "colour", not me! I'm Canadian, eh? Furthermore, there is nothing simple about ignorance. Ignorance is in fact a highly complex and generally misunderstood subject. It's enlightenment that is simple. So simple that it entirely evades most people. I suggest reading some Taoist literature for further insights into this matter. Try "The Tao of Pooh" for a start. It's a great book.

- LH

Kendall - The British pronunciation of "lieutenant" is rather odd, but if you grow up hearing it that way, you take it for granted, and it sounds classy. That's the best defense I can offer at this point.

Remember also that upper class Brits don't say "water", they say "Woh-tah". Try and explain that one.

- LH

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12 May 01 - 02:44 PM (#461066)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: kendall

Two dissimilar cultures separated by a common language.

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12 May 01 - 10:07 PM (#461223)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: MarkS

If I present a $ 20.00 bill for a $ 10.00 purchase, I expect to get back $ 10.00 in change. I don't tell the shop where I am buying, "OK, you have a surplus, but go ahead and keep it." Why does this make sense for everything under the sun with the exception of government revenue?

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13 May 01 - 02:24 AM (#461271)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: GUEST,A Regular

:-(

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13 May 01 - 08:11 AM (#461336)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: kendall

We have seen a number of poor examples here. Look, the fact is, as long as we have a 4 trillion dollar debt, there is NO SURPLUS!! Mark, if you owed that shop keeper another ten from a previous debt, would you still expect change? Man, I get so sick of all this right wing chirping about "OUR money" Sure it's our money..it's also our military, our Social security, our education our medicare, etc. how are we going to maintain those programs if they are not funded? And, the biggest farce of all is the fact that this "surplus" is not real in the first place! It is PROJECTED! It is based on 3 percent growth, and there is NO growth! For chrissake am I the only one who can count? That smirking doofus ran on a false promise, and, too many of us still have not opened our eyes! Get real!

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13 May 01 - 09:22 PM (#461668)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: Little Hawk

Precisely. We have a socialized health care system in Canada, and as you suggest, Kendall, it is OUR health care system, not something some cruel and greedy socialist government has forced upon us in its desire to dominate and rob us. All polls up to the present have indicated that a huge majority of the Canadian electorate wants to maintain that national health care system. Unfortunately, the FTAA will probably eventually succeed in destroying it, despite the wishes of the Canadian electorate....in order to make bigger profits for private enterprise in the form of the pharmaceutical companies, the private health insurance companies, and the medical professional community...a group of people who are already far richer than most of the public could ever hope to be. "For the love of a lousy buck I watched them die" (Dylan).

To have a nationally funded health care system is an act of common humanity. To not do so is an act of madness, greed, and utter irresponsibility.

- LH

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13 May 01 - 10:13 PM (#461686)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: kendall

BRAVO LH

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14 May 01 - 10:52 AM (#461962)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: Jim the Bart

I think Bush (unintentionally) revealed his true feelings over the weekend. He said something to the effect that the best way to combat the high price of energy is his tax cut, because it gives people the money to pay more for energy, i.e. oil.

Even on the surface this is brazen. Bush is saying, in essence, that it's better that this money is going into the bank accounts of private business than to pay for public services. But let's look a little closer at this.

People who's earnings come from their labor, rather than from their investments, are going to have higher energy costs; it costs more to heat a shop or store, or drive a car to work, than it does to clip a coupon, compound your interest or trade a stock. But the smallest tax cuts will be gained by those who's income comes from their labor, because as has been pointed out they pay less taxes to begin with. So what's the result of all this? The tax cut for the wealthy few stays in their pockets, while the tax cut for those lower down the ladder also is funneled to the wealthy, specifically those who own the energy companies.

Meanwhile, the administration's energy plan has become clear: Give private interests more and more access to restricted areas, so that they can "create (private) wealth" out of the mineral resources on PUBLIC LANDS. Cut the funding to alternative sources. Further, keep alive the misperception that "wild ideas" and "half-cocked" plans like solar power and wind power will not work. Discount the effectiveness of conservation and recycling. Place the blame for high prices on regulatory acts which provide cleaner air and water. Refuse to admit that business has any responsibility within the community other than for the generation of profits. Enter into agreements and treaties with other countries that favor business interests exclusively and undercut the effectiveness of unions, or any other sort of organized community action.

A key element in all this is to declare the energy situation "a crisis". A crisis calls for extreme measures. History can't call you "greedy", "self-serving", "short-sighted", "venal", or place any blame on you for the long-term repercussions of bad policy put forward in a time of crisis. This is their "golden parachute" for when the shit hits the fan.

There are two problems with this,IMHO. The first is that WE THE PEOPLE aren't really that stupid. We may be lazy enough to shrug through a lot of this, but eventually this horse shit that they are peddling will bring them down again. The other is that these guys (if they are indeed sincere) believe in GOD. And and all-knowing God will see through all of this. And their God does not care at all about their profit margin. He said to take care of the least of these. And when they stand before Him/Her, they will be naked in the eyes of their lord. And they will have a lot to answer for.

Dick Cheney. George Bush, Sr & Jr. Christie Whitman. And all the rest of that bunch in office and in whose interest they work.

I don't have to damn them.

Bart

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14 May 01 - 12:45 PM (#462028)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: mousethief

We were saddled with all of these crazy spellings by Webster. They are now firmly ensconced (or is that ensconsed?) in our language and aren't going away, for got or for ill.

Don't you Brits have anything else to harp on? Maybe you all should get hobbies or something, instead of this hobbyhorse you continually ride.

Alex

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14 May 01 - 01:46 PM (#462073)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: Ringer

I'm puzzled as to why reducing the tax-take is called a give-away. If a mugger takes my wallet and overlooks the change in my pocket has he "given away" that change? Surely the tax give-away is the Medicare and Welfare and Armed Forces and Garbage Collection...

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14 May 01 - 02:11 PM (#462099)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: kendall

I repeat..THERE IS NO SURPLUS!!! It is NOT real!! That 4 trillion dollar national debt is quite real though.

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14 May 01 - 02:15 PM (#462104)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: mousethief

Likening taxation to being mugged is ridiculous. Calling the provision of necessary public services a "give-away" is hardly less so.

Alex

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14 May 01 - 03:13 PM (#462152)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: DougR

Sigh.

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14 May 01 - 11:23 PM (#462509)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: MAV

Hey Mouse,

Long time, no see.

The sun finally came out. We had 90 degrees(F)and a few snowbanks left in the front yard.

Very strange.

*******************************************************

Kendall,

I repeat..THERE IS NO SURPLUS!!! It is NOT real!! That 4 trillion dollar national debt is quite real though

Well, since it WAS $5.5 Trillion, I think you should calm down and stop repeating.

Paying down the debt is to be included in the budget.

********************************************************

Guest;

If you take the time to examine other threads in which MAV was a participant, Jaque-off, you will discover that he's an obnoxious,simple-minded,loud-mouthed racist piece of shite

I'm no racist (you left out sexist, homophobe and moron) and you have pretty much just proven yourself to be that which you accuse me of.

I'm an American conservative and I know what I believe in. If I have offended you.........good.

You would do well to be nice to Uncle Jaque, he's the kind of guy that would give you the shirt off his back.

That way of life that has led to only squalor, tyranny and genocide every place it has been tried is called Capitalism, no?

NO!.....It's called AUTHORITARIANISM!!!

Soviet Union..murdered 20 million of their own..1929-53
Hitler..murdererd 13 million Jews, Gypsies, Gays..1939-45
China..murdered 20 million of their own...1948-52

If you want squalor...go to North Korea, China or the former industrial sites of the former USSR.

You have a Queen right? That makes you a subject. What the hell is that all about? Please explain and use all the paper you need.

On second thought, don't bother. Why don't you go get a job instead and start paying back some of the debt you owe the US taxpayers?

By the way, Blair is a twinkie (Is he still wet-nursing the baby?)

Good grief!

******************************************************

RichM,

MAV, don't you ever play music?

Yes.

Or at least post about it?

Why? I don't have a need to talk about it.

********************************************************* Folks,

The point of the stupid story is that most people in the US pay little or no INCOME taxes. (They pay plenty of other taxes however).

Consequently those who pay the bulk of the taxes sould, by default, receive more of the relief.

Many non-taxpayers already are subsidized through the "Earned Income Tax Credit" This is blatant redistribution of the wealth (aka social engineering).

The "rich" aren't really taxed that much at all. They all have their accumulated millions in big untaxed trust funds and get a small income suitable to pay their living expenses.(See Kennedys)

The successful high income earners are who the tax thieves are hitting the hardest. They are being "punished" for creating jobs, being productive and creating wealth.

The same tax rate as levied on lower earners would still glean more revenue from the higher incomes and be fairer.

BUT NOOOOO!

They have to hit the upper income people with a higher rate as well.

As a libertarian, I say it's immoral to tax income....

PERIOD!

Have an interesting day,

mav out

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15 May 01 - 08:47 AM (#462666)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: kendall

And how would Libertarians support a government under which the people have the freedoms we enjoy? There aint no free lunch. The matter of all those "non producers" old people, poor people, mental cases etc. Why dont we just let them die? Are there no jails? Are there no work houses? Dont I pay taxes to support those institutions? ( Ebinezer Scrooge) Do the Eskimos still leave their old and sick on the ice to freeze or be eaten by polar bears? Do the nomads in Africa still leave their "non producers" behind to feed the Hyenas and Jackals? We could save billions by adopting that policy. What do you think MAV?

An old man with Parkinsons lived with his son and the sons family. One day the old man happened by the work shop and heard his son working inside. He entered the shop, and asked the son what he was doing. The son said, "I'm building a trough for you so you will stop spilling your food." The old man said, "Son, you carry my genes, better build one for yourself."

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15 May 01 - 11:52 AM (#462791)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: mousethief

MAV, I love it when you get snow and hot sun. Never happens here of course but when I was in Chicago we had a few days like that.

Then again I remember some days when it got up to zero (F) and we ran around in our shirtsleeves because it was so WARM compared to 15, 20 below.

As for the prez, we must remember that these budget projections are about as firm as tapioca pudding (fresh), and they're crying right now in Texas because Dubya's tax cuts there have come back around to bite them in the butt; they can no longer pay for all the services that everybody there says they want, because the tax cuts went deeper than the projected economic good times they were based on.

Alex

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15 May 01 - 12:03 PM (#462801)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: Little Hawk

MAV - you are quite correct that the "rich" aren't taxed much at all, because they have ways of concealing their real income. Too true.

You are also correct that it is authoritarianism that leads to tyranny and genocide. Authoritarianism can be found in either capitalist or socialist societies...or mixtures of the 2....and flourishes under either, given the right conditions.

As for squalor...well, we've got that in any number of places...like Africa, Eastern Europe, Western Europe (in some areas), South America, Central America, Asia, Los Angeles, Washington D.C., many other big North American cities, and certain depressed rural areas in both the USA and Canada...wherever there are many poor people and many unemployed or underemployed people...and no real mechanism to do anything about the situation, except stick on a few wretched bandaids, and up the police presence, and build more jails to incarcerate those who have snapped under the pressure and turned to crime, drugs, or both.

Most of our current societies have made only half-hearted efforts to deal with the deteriorating social situation so far, which is not all that surprising, because they are run by the very rich, who, as you say, don't pay much taxes...and don't really have much motivation to change the status quo. After all, they are doing fine.

The politicians that we are given a choice to vote for are generally handpicked by those same very rich people, often from among their own ranks. It's a self-sustaining system, a closed circle, that has effectively rendered the general public virtually powerless in the political arena. Your American public is aware of this on a gut level, and that is partly why your voter turnout is so low. People know in their hearts that their vote won't change anything anyway, in more than a very superficial sense. It's the same deal in Canada.

It's very sad. Do I have a simple solution? Nope. I wish I did.

- LH

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15 May 01 - 12:47 PM (#462852)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: kendall

PULL UP THE LADDER, I'M ABOARD.

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15 May 01 - 02:05 PM (#462940)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: Pseudolus

The problem with that post about the ten people eating at the restaurant is this......If the guy paying all the money isn't smart enough to get to the front of the line, then he deserves to pay a lot more!!!! *BG*

Sorry, couldn't resist!!
Frank

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15 May 01 - 06:33 PM (#463150)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: MAV

Hey Little Hawk,

you are quite correct that the "rich" aren't taxed much at all, because they have ways of concealing their real income

Actually, the "rich" may not have a real large "income" because they have arranged it that way. The "rich" already have a lot of money and most likely are living off the interest.

The "overachievers", big income earners, are a different story.(That's who I was referring to)

But back to the rich:

If you have a zillion dollars in the bank or Wall Street (that great grandpa already paid taxes on) and you can have an automatic monthly deposit into your checking account of say $4000. You could probably manage to rough it and get by on that amount. The rest would just stay in the account and be added to the principle to gain compound interest (and grow and grow and grow).

If you have a massive portfolio of low dividend stocks, you are mainly taxed only when you sell them. (so just sell a little at a time, at way less than the portfolio's growth)

Take it a step further and put that zillion in TAX FREE municipal bonds, you can take out as much as is prudent and never be taxed on it.

Bonds don't yield much interest so you do need tons of money in the account, but you can buy 30 year bonds which stay at the same stable interest rate for a long time.

May you find yourself in that position someday my friend.(see; dollar cost averaging)

WWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW

The politicians that we are given a choice to vote for are generally handpicked by those same very rich people, often from among their own ranks.

Not exactly. Anyone (within citizenship and age guidelines) can run for most offices. If they can raise enough money (your point I assume) they can usually make it to the primaries (sometimes one candidate will talk another out of running).

Fund raising IS the first cut. Many times the same candidates are asking the same contributors for money and it just dries up. You know, the early bird gets the worm.

Once they have the funding they have to win the popularity contest of the primaries.(the second cut) It's sort of like drag racing or maybe the world series.

It's a self-sustaining system, a closed circle, that has effectively rendered the general public virtually powerless in the political arena

Since most individuals don't contribute to political campaigns, the funding chores do fall to a certain type of demographic, but the money only buys exposure not votes. I'd rather they payed for it than I!

Your American public is aware of this on a gut level, and that is partly why your voter turnout is so low

Well, they've certainly been encouraged to believe it, but this last election kind of poured water on that belief.

People know in their hearts that their vote won't change anything anyway, in more than a very superficial sense.

I believe that to be a flawed but popular premise. In case you haven't noticed, all hell's breaking loose with our lefties. You can bet the Justice Department and the Judiciary Branch will change....."Big Time"

If more people were paying attention to what's going on (instead of sports and entertainment)and would bother to seperate the facts from the crap delivered (or worse, not delivered) by the media before they vote, all representative republics would work much better......but then, of course, that would be hard.

It's the same deal in Canada

I know, I know, but they probably learned those bad habits from us.

One thing to consider however, just how valuable is the uninformed vote?

See you soon,

mav out

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16 May 01 - 12:37 AM (#463415)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: Little Hawk

Oops. Screwed up the bold command somehow...(it was just supposed to be on the word "SOUND".

- LH

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16 May 01 - 07:22 PM (#464239)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: MarkS

Hi Kendall - I agree completely that excess revenue should be used to retire debt, but lets go back to my previous example. If the shopkeeper would use the ten dollars I expect in change to reduce the amount I owe him from previous credit, then fine. But I don't want the shopkeeper using the ten dollars to subsidize some yet to be determined activity, which he will subsidize only because he has taken ten dollars more from me than the amount of whatever it is I am buying!
Anyway, perhaps this is a more valid example. If the shopkeeper is government and I am the taxpayer "buying" goods and services with my dollars, then the government "debt" is really owed to ME, because it is money I have lent the shopkeeper in the past. The shopkeeper should give me the merchandise I want without charge, using up the surplus (if there really is one) until such time as the surplus is exhausted. Then the shopkeeper can start charging (taxing) me again for the goods and services I require of him!

We may have some fun with this over the next few months!
Regards
Mark

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16 May 01 - 10:39 PM (#464354)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: kendall

There is no such thing as a good example.

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17 May 01 - 10:31 AM (#464625)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: Jim the Bart

Let's simplify this whole tax question:
We pay taxes for the maintenance of our government(s) and the execution of their policies and programs. These policies and programs are decided upon by our elected representatives.

When the amount collected is less than the amount budgeted, money is borrowed from the private sector and debt service becomes another budgeted amount.

It makes little sense to reduce the amount collected until the amount owed has been paid off. When the debt is gone - 100% gone - we can then begin to think about lowering all taxes.

Tax relief for those who are not able to meet basic expenses - food, shelter, clothing and the cost of doing business - makes sense. But why should we provide "relief" to those whose wealth is currently increasing daily? To provide incentive for them to invest in steel mills in the far east, buy more BMW's, or move more of our jobs to Mexico?

Tax relief across the board, based on some weird vision of "fairness" is ludicrous. If the system was fair, you would not have the vast disparity between the ultra-rich and the dirt poor.

It is not fair that people get increasingly richer simply because their ancestors were in a position to stake a claim to resources that were once cheap and available (land, oil, coal, etc.), in perpetuity. And our president want to open up more public land to the energy mafia, to ease the latest "crisis". Bah.

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17 May 01 - 11:27 AM (#464679)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: mousethief

The "debt" is not something owed to the taxpayers in general. It is owed to holders of bonds (including EE savings bonds) and treasury bills -- people who have essentially loaned the US gov't money with the expectation of getting a return on their cash.

This system, by the way, was invented in part by James Madison, with the end of preventing a coup. People who are owed money by the government, he reasoned, wouldn't want to overthrow that same government. Which is why it's comforting that so many t-bills are owned by overseas investors -- makes them less likely to declare war on us.

Alex

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17 May 01 - 02:03 PM (#464861)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: kendall

Just think of the prosperity we would have with no national debt.

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17 May 01 - 09:28 PM (#465157)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: Little Hawk

Seems to me I wrote in a song about 20 years ago:

"All the sheep are out buying on credit
What they can't ever hope to afford
While the wolves grease the wheels on the treadmill
And their wives look attractively bored
And their money, it's nothing but paper
And their idols are made out of clay
Cos if everyone paid all their debts off
This whole country'd collapse in a day."

One such wolf runs Ontario, Canada. His name is Mike Harris. Another such wolf controls much of the Canadian media. His name is Conrad Black. I believe he is seeking knighthood in England where he now lives.

Get this: The present social system is based on debt. Everyone is encouraged to create more debt through the irresponsible use of credit. Privately owned banks create vast amounts of fictional money (FAR more than does the government), simply by making loans (digital money that doesn't really exist) to large corporations, thus creating even more debt. All this debt carries interest, which further spirals the national financial situation out of control. The increased supply of imaginary money thus created fuels inflation, which impoverishes the elderly and those on fixed incomes. The system is based on debt...gigantic amounts of ever-increasing debt. To focus on goverment debt alone is akin to imagining that the whole iceberg is above water, and if we melt that part, then the iceberg will be gone!

Since most of the citizens of the developed world are themselves accustomed to irresponsibly being in debt on a regular basis, why would they castigate their own government for doing the same thing?

I am living in a suburb of Imperial Rome, complete with gladiatorial ("sports") arenas and other forms of mindless entertainment, mostly built with borrowed digital fictional money.

At this point almost nothing, however unreal, would surprise me...except an act of compassion and responsibility from those in the highest halls of worldly power...an equal sharing of the bounty of the Earth.

But...I have seen numerous such acts on the part of relatively poor people who have just a little to share with their brothers and sisters, whether in Cuba...or Canada. Wisdom is often found in very humble surroundings.

- LH

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17 May 01 - 10:32 PM (#465195)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: DougR

If I wanted to be unkind, Kendall my friend, I would ask who got us there? Seems that there were far more Democratic legislatures during the past forty years, than Republican, but I don't want to talk politics. :>) I'm a lover, not a politician.

DougR

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18 May 01 - 12:23 AM (#465231)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: Little Hawk

Well, that's what the world needs, Doug! More lovers.

Maybe that's what got Bill Clinton confused in the oval office... :-)

- LH

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18 May 01 - 08:47 AM (#465401)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: kendall

Ronald Raygun spent more money in 8 years than all other presidents combined. Even after promising to balance the budget. He gets an airport named after him, other liars get tarred and feathered.

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18 May 01 - 08:56 PM (#465978)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: MarkS

But Kendall, I have long been used as a good example of a bad example!

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18 May 01 - 10:58 PM (#466031)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: Little Hawk

Candidates promise to balance the budget because it sounds good and gets them votes. To imagine that they would say it for any other reason is probably a bit naive. However, I will consider the possibility that a candidate who is a bit naive himself might make such a promise and actually believe it for a little while...till political reality sets in, and his handlers tell him it can't be done. Maybe Reagan actually believed he was going to do it. Who knows? If Bill the Cat believed it, why not Reagan?

- LH

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19 May 01 - 06:31 AM (#466135)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: CHAZZZM

I am a newcomer to this debate. Yes, I write "colour", not color", and I hope that I have "honour" too ! But for me, the thing about land that the character that you have been discussing is the leader of is this ... by electing Bush, the US has joined that sad group of countries that has a mass-murderer as its leader. How many was it at the last count ? Over 150 ?

When The US Government announces the immediate abolition of the death penalty, the disbandment of the NRA, and the removal of the right to bear arms, then I will feel able to consider that country's aspirations to be the leading civilised country of the western world !

Best Wishes, CHAZZZM

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19 May 01 - 10:05 AM (#466205)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: kendall

DREAM ON!

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19 May 01 - 11:22 AM (#466240)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: MAV

I REGRET that the italics whacked out at the end.

mav out

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19 May 01 - 02:03 PM (#466291)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: Little Hawk

Yeah, it sure is hard on the eyes...

I've seldom run into a person who likes political debate as much as you do, MAV, and who really gets wrapped up in all the little details, and feels that strongly about it. I kind of wonder why that is?

Of course, every human being is a walking mystery. I know I am.

The interesting thing is, if you had been born in a different country...or a different family...or a different social class...or a different time period...you might just as well be...

a) an ardent socialist

b) a labour union organizer

c) a liberal

d) a communist guerilla in the jungle

e) a Democrat

f) or exactly what you now are (an American conservative)

g) or any other possibility under the sun

Consider that, and have compassion. I consider these sort of things, because I am well aware how arbitrary and subjective most people's opinions are...including my own.

My guess is that through the process of reincarnation, MAV, you will eventually get to try out all these roles and play them with gusto, and at the end of the day you will discover that while each of them had a grain of truth, mixed up with a bowl of good intentions, sifted through a screen of common misconception and prejudice, plus more than a dash of fear...they were all a few bricks short of achieving peace and brotherhood on Earth, which can only be achieved by Love, put into action.

How about that for a recipe?

- LH

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19 May 01 - 09:28 PM (#466543)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: Uncle Jaque

"I've seldom run into a person who likes political debate as much as you do, MAV, and who really gets wrapped up in all the little details, and feels that strongly about it. I kind of wonder why that is?" - LH

Here's a clue, fellow traveller: He loves his Country, takes his responsibility as an American Citizen seriously, gives a darn (and then some) about what kind of society future generations of Americans will enjoy... or have to endure, and is seriously hooked on FREEDOM!!!
I'm not at all ashamed to share these sentiments with MAV, and admire his greater motivation and hard work in articulating the rationale supporting the ideaology we embrace and espouse far more articulately than I.

We get pretty frustrated being "voices in the wilderness" sometimes, striving against the riptide of "political correctness" and popular opinion. We are not trying to win any popularity contests here; just trying, as best we know how, to keep that which American Patriots struggled, suffered, sweat and all too often bled to establish and preserve to pass on from their generations to ours, in hopes that the treasure would be appreciated, preserved, enhanced and passed along again - hopefully without the strife and bloodshed attending preceeding transmissions.
Liberty, dearly bought and tenuously held, demands it's price. I think it was John Quincy ADAMS who stated that "The tree of Liberty must occasionally be watered with the blood of Patriots and tyrants; it is it's natural manure (fertilizer)". Many who have never had to live without it seem all too willing to sell her for "security", "getting along", or some other pap. Although that gruesome "manuring" of the Liberty Tree may be inevitable, there are a few of us who would like to put that off as long as possible. So we risk ridicule, contempt, and yes dear hearts, persecution in order to sound the alarm as best we can before complacent Citizens let Liberty slip from their flacid grasp... and her ransom, I assure you, will be most horribly dear.

As to the proposed ultimate solution to all of this being "Love put into action": Now I think that you are really on to something there, my friend! Have you ever heard of the Book of St. John? St. Paul's Epistle to the Corinthians (2 of em - one of my favorites is II Cor. Ch. 13) and some others you might find with them in a collection of about 66 fairly short "Books".

The ancient Greeks had several words for "Love"; without getting into laborious detail here, the one I think we're looking for here is "Agap'e", which interestingly seems to have been used almost interchangably in various contexts with "photos" or "Light", or "logos" (root of "logic") - "word" or "truth". Notice a pattern here? I did, and figured it deserved some looking into; I sincerely hope that you will too. The pattern blossoms from there, and millions seem to have percieved it as something beautiful.
If we're not careful here, we could turn the next page, and much to our surprise... find that we're both on it. Wouldn't that be somethin'!?

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19 May 01 - 09:45 PM (#466549)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: kendall

I , for one, do not want to return to the old days when the robber barons worked men to death for piddling wages in unsafe mines etc. and, if you were hurt, TS, you were replaced by another human Mule. I dont know how old you are MAV (unless you are who I think you are) but, I will bet that upon reaching retirement age, you will be at the head of the line to claim your social security! (give away program)

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19 May 01 - 10:16 PM (#466564)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: Uncle Jaque

Ahh Kendall... those "robber barons" were no more morally justified in what they did in exploiting the vunerable laborers than are those "organized Labor/Crime" bosses MAV alludes to who shake down the Membership for tribute with which to enrich themseles and buy power with, while terrorizing dissidents or those who try to work "too hard" and make "Brothers and Sisters look bad" for mediocre (or worse) effort or competence. And we both know that people who cross the Union have a tendancy to get hurt sometimes.
We have both been around long enough to know by now that evil.. or virtue, for that matter - is seldom to be found all in one place or evenly distributed. They have the most annoying habit of turning up in the damndest places, where least expected, in defiance of our best - laid stereotypes, prophecies, or expectations. We are not apt to discover an Angel in a whorehouse, but there are Devils aplenty in Church on the average Sunday... but even that distribution pattern is subject to wide and bewildering variation.

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19 May 01 - 10:18 PM (#466569)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: Little Hawk

Hi, Jacque -

Well, yes, we all dearly love freedom, and we all struggle for it from the moment we are born. I know I have.

Every society places many roadblocks in the way of the individual's quest for freedom. American society is no exception to that. The USA is not the ultimate experiment in human freedom, although its schoolchildren are all taught that it is. When my father was educated in England, he was taught the very same thing about their system. Every society imagines itself to be very enlightened. It's the most common conceit humanity falls prey to, and it leads to jingoism, war, and intolerance of others.

Parents also frequently interfere with their children's attempts to live as free beings, sometimes with good results, and sometimes not. It is legitimate to protect the child against danger, but it is not legitimate to replace the child's natural way of thinking with your own.

I have read all the books of the New Testament and the Old Testament at least a few times. There are indeed some very inspiring passages about love in various of those books. Jesus' life does not suggest the building of a competitive system, amounting to survival of the fittest, and the devil take the hindmost.

The kind of love I was referring to was of the type that God shows toward the whole creation: He/She provides for all without prejudice, doesn't play favourites, doesn't hold back, loves without conditions. Observe that when rain falls it falls on rich and poor, "good" and "evil", and makes no distinctions. Likewise the sun shines on everyone. No prejudice.

That's the kind of love I was speaking of. It means no more war, no more violence, no more separation into "us" and "them", food for the hungry, shelter for the homeless, work for those who are in need of work, and protection of Nature (a holy garden that we were intended to be stewards of, not rapists of).

To institute such a system would require more than just the United States, its constitution, and its present way of life...directed mainly toward the amassing of money and property.

It would require a unification of the whole human race on this planet toward a common end. I believe that will happen one day, but probably not for some time yet. When it does, the US constitution will be a somewhat archaic historical document (like all other present constitutions), albeit one with a number of fine and noble concepts (like most other present constitutions).

We all risk persecution when we speak our truth.

The tree of Liberty IS watered with the blood of patriots, tyrants...and the poor...especially the poor.

I'm as fed up with political correctness as you are.

The term: "fellow traveler". Did you mean that in the old sense as one who aids and abetts communists (whether consciously or unconsciously)?

Or did you mean that you and I are travelling the same road together? I will take it as the latter, because I do believe that all humanity is of one spirit, and that the issues which divide us against one another are forms of mental illusion, like waves on the surface of the ocean.

Everything in the world leads us to division. Everything in Spirit leads us to unity. That's why Jesus said that he was in this world, but not of this world.

We all travel the same road. How can sons & daughters of God do otherwise?

We have our political notions, but at the end of the day there is something much larger than that.

That's the best way I can explain it tonight, and it will strike those who do not believe in anything spiritual (or who believe in a vengeful God) as utter claptrap, but so what? Should I hide in fear of their form of political correctness, and not dare open my mouth? What the hell, I'm going to die anyway one of these days, so I might as well say what I think while I still can...which is just what MAV is doing, obviously.

One last thought: My way is NOT the ONLY way, and I know it. I essentially have trouble with people who think their way IS the ONLY way, and that is a common mental disease in the political arena anywhere, not just in the USA.

- LH

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19 May 01 - 10:28 PM (#466578)
Subject: RE: BS: BUSHWACKED- BUDGET GIVE-AWAY
From: Little Hawk

Oh, and you're dead right about corrupt union bosses. It's just that there was a time when unions were desperately needed in order to reform the common man's working conditions. Now that they've been around for a good while, they have themselves succumbed to a good deal of internal corruption, for the benefit of the union bosses.

The same thing happens with political parties and governments.

- LH

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