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18 Jun 01 - 01:20 PM (#486072) Subject: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: GUEST,leeneia In a couple of weeks, we are going to a do program of Welsh folk music for the St David's Welsh Society, and we want to teach the members how to sing Huna Blentyn in Welsh. For various reasons, including the fact that many members are elderly and get flustered by change, we want to print the real words and below them a phonetic version using English spelling. Like this: Heena blentin, un vee (or would it be vuh?) min-wes.
Here are the Welsh words:
Huna blentyn yn fy mynwes I have a friend who has studied Welsh and we are aware of how consonants are pronounced. (f = v, ch as in loch) It's some of the vowels she is unsure of. As in "ydyw," for example. I would appreciate it if a person who knows English and Welsh would supply the phonetic spelling. I think the easiest way would be to copy this message (Ctrl + C) and save it somewhere else so you can see it and type on the same document. Then copy it again and post it. The original is from the Internet. There was a caret, which I cannot type, over the a in the 6th line. Merci |
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18 Jun 01 - 02:17 PM (#486167) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: GUEST,Willa No expert on this, but I did have some help from a Welsh speaker; I haven't dared to sing it yet. There are some Welsh language sites which will give you some help. An added problem is that there are apparently regional variations in the pronunciation of the u sound. I was told that Welsh is essentially a phonetic language, so much is said as written. Single f is v, ch is usually soft as in loch,y is sometimes short i and sometimes short u. This is the nearest I can get to it, but I think a Welsh speaker will be along soon to help us both out, this being Mudcat. It's a beautiful lullaby, and I'd really like to sing it. huna blentin,in vu munwes chlid a hin nes ud you hon bry kee ow mam sin din am danat carry ad mam sin dan vu mron nee ka dim am ha ruth (short u) gintun (hard g) nee na un din ar thi (as in thin) gam hun an dowel (like towel)an will blen tin hun an vwin ar vron du vam I do have another verse. remember that Welsh is a beautiful lyrical language, so the above attempt at translation is far too harsh; the sounds blend and flow much better than i can show. |
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18 Jun 01 - 08:12 PM (#486518) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: BanjoRay This is my attempt. I spoke only Welsh until I was about 5 years old, though I don't speak too much of it these days - I live in England. Huna blentyn yn fy mynwes Clyd a chynnes ydyw hon Breichiau mam sy'n dyn am danat Cariad mam sy dan fy mron Ni cha dim amharu'th gyntun Ni wna undyn a thi gam Huna'n dawel, anwyl blentyn Hun'an fwyn ar fron dy fam. Notes: TH is always pronounced like THICK not THIS. I hope this helps |
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18 Jun 01 - 09:03 PM (#486544) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: Helen The name of the song is Suo Gan, isn't it? Somewhere in my piles of music is a folder with these "phonetic" spellings for lots of Welsh songs, from when I was in a Welsh choir, here in Oz. What BanjoRay put in is fairly similar to what we sang, I think. Helen |
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18 Jun 01 - 09:23 PM (#486558) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: Snuffy There is an English phonetic transcription of Suo Gan on this thread SUO GAN Lyris needed please, plus several English translations. There are also other threads discussing the song where it is called Sou Gan or Sho Gan. Just type Suo Gan in the Digitrad and Forum Search box on the main threads page and you'll get them all |
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18 Jun 01 - 10:47 PM (#486624) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: GUEST,leeneia Thanks, everyone for your help. We are making progress here. Many people call the song Suo Gan, but the term is merely a rough equivalent to "lullaby," so that isnt' much help. So we just call it Huna Blentyn. |
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19 Jun 01 - 04:13 AM (#486755) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: Lyndi-loo I believe that this is the song that was used as background music in the film "The Empire of the sun" A beautiful song. Being a Welshwoman, the words look as they sound to me, but reading Banjo Ray's transliteration I can see why they might be difficult to a non Welsh speaker. F is always pronounced v FF is F C is always hard Ch as in Loch dd sounds like th in Then |
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19 Jun 01 - 11:26 AM (#486999) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: GUEST,sian away from work Banjo Ray is pretty spot-on, but I'd make a couple of points... Huna blentyn yn fy mynwes Hinna blentin unn ver munnwess I've never seen "yn fy mynwes". It's usually "ar", pronounced 'are' And "ver" should be "vuh" Also 'huna' is closer to 'heen-ah'. Clyd a chynnes ydyw hon Cleed ah chunness uddew honn Breichiau mam sy'n dyn am danat breyechiai mamm seen deen am dannat Perhaps more like Breye-chee-eye, and 'dyn' would be 'din' (short 'i' sound) Cariad mam sy dan fy mron carriad mam see dan ver mrron Again, not 'ver' but 'vuh' Ni cha dim amharu'th gyntun knee chaa dim ammharreeth gun-tin Ni wna undyn a thi gam Knee oona inndin ah thee gamm 'undyn' = 'een-deen' Huna'n dawel, anwyl blentyn Hinnan da-well ann-ooil blenntin 'huna'n' = heenahn Hun'an fwyn ar fron dy fam. Hinnan vooeen arr vronn duh vamm 'huna'n' as above. Makes you break into a sweat trying to think this out, doesn't it!? I think the Welsh National Gymanfa Ganu Assoc. in N. America is going to republish the (very) old phonetic hymnal - I don't know if they're thinking of doing anything similar for their folk book... sian
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19 Jun 01 - 11:31 AM (#487003) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: Lyndi-loo Depends if You're South Walian, North walian or West Walian. hee hee |
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19 Jun 01 - 11:46 AM (#487015) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: GUEST,leeneia Thanks, Sian. You addressed some of the questions I posted in a second message. Our thoughts crossed in the mail. Two sources have "ar" in the first line, so I think I'll go with that. Let's close this thread and add any new thoughts to the thread called Huna Blentyn step 2. |
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19 Jun 01 - 11:56 AM (#487023) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: MMario would actually be helpful for people later on if discussion continued in THIS thread (at least until it gets to about 100 posts) |
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19 Jun 01 - 03:21 PM (#487192) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: BanjoRay Lyndi-Loo, are you not totally unknown to me? Cheers |
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20 Jun 01 - 04:36 AM (#487632) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: Lyndi-loo No Banjo Ray I am not totally unknown |
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20 Jun 01 - 06:34 AM (#487670) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: sian, west wales L-l, you're right about north/west/south but how do you explain how to say the North Walian "u" by internet phonetics? Awkward crew, those Gogs. sian |
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20 Jun 01 - 07:07 AM (#487688) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: Jon Freeman Sain, Gogs rule - just you wait... Caernarfon is the true capital of Wales... one day you will realise and learn to speak proper! ;-) Seriously, I wish I could help with the pronunciations but I am a Saes. I did do some Welsh in my first period in N Wales (67-72 - age 7-12) but I can't really remember it - all I have these days is a confused mix of French and "pigeon Welsh" and there was never really much Welsh spoken in Llandudno. I'm not even sure what Welsh we were taught but I've a feeling they could not even get a cup of tea, a headache or smoking right - what sort of word is smocio? Jon (an ysmugier);_) |
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02 Oct 08 - 03:19 PM (#2455817) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: GUEST,Carwen I come from near Rhosneigr any questions are welcome |
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22 Feb 09 - 04:30 PM (#2573218) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation (revisited) From: sully3561 I sang this song as a boy treble many years ago. Now, my young son has been tasked with it and has asked for my help with pronunciation of the last two verses. Gulp! It's been nearly forty years, but this is what I've dredged from my poor old memory. Any help greatly appreciated! Huna'n dawel, heno, huna, Heen-ah'n da-well, hei-noh, hee-nah, Huna'n fwyn, y tlws ei lun; Heen-ah'n voo-een, ah tloos ei leen; Pam yr wyt yn awr yn gwenu, Pahm arr oo-weet ahn, awur yoo-uhn gwe-nee, Gwenu'n dirion yn dy hun? Gwe-nee'n dirr-yohn, uhn duh heen? Ai angylion fry sy'n gwenu, Aye ahn-gahl-yohn, vrree seen gwe-nee, Arnat ti yn gwenu'n llon, Arr-nat tee uhn gwe-nee'n chlon, Tithau'n gwenu'n ôl dan huno, Tee-tha'een gwe-nee'n ohl dahn hee-noh, Huno'n dawel ar fy mron? Heen-oh'n da-well arr vuh mrron? Paid ag ofni, dim ond deilen Pah-aye-d ahg ahv-nee, deem ohnd dei-len Gura, gura ar y ddôr; Gee-rrah, gee-rrah arr ah thorr; Paid ag ofni, ton fach unig Pah-aye-d ahg ahv-nee, tohn vahch ee-neegh Sua, sua ar lan y môr; See'hrah, see'hrah-arr lahn ah mohrr. Huna blentyn, nid oes yma Heen-ah blen-teen, need oei ah-mah Ddim i roddi iti fraw; Theem ee rrohthee, eetee vrraw; Gwena'n dawel ar fy mynwes Gwe-nah'n da-well, arr vuh muhn-wess Ar yr engyl gwynion draw. Arr yoo-urr ein-hyeil gwuhn-yohn drraw. Where: Aye = English long 'I', ei approximates English long 'A', oh = somewhere between English short and long 'O', hr approximates German 'hr' (as in fuhrer). Gosh, how can such a bloody jaw cracker sound so smooth and sweet when sung? Cheers, Tim from Texas |
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23 Feb 09 - 12:08 PM (#2573853) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: Trevor We (Rapsquillion) do this from time to time and we have it written phonetically to help us Sassenachs sing it. If you p-mail me your e-mail address I'll attach it for you. (One of our number once introduced it in a set of songs we do in 'foreign languages'. We were in Montgomery, Powys, at the time!). |
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23 Feb 09 - 01:30 PM (#2573940) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: sully3561 Trevor - LOL! p-mail on the way... Thanks! |
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23 Feb 09 - 02:07 PM (#2573977) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: sian, west wales Not bad, sully. I've made a few tweeks. Very "Empire of the Sun"! Huna'n dawel, heno, huna, Heen-ah'n da-well, HE-NOH, hee-nah, Huna'n fwyn, y tlws ei lun; Heen-ah'n voo-een, UH tloos ei leen; Pam yr wyt yn awr yn gwenu, Pahm UR oo-weet UN, awur un gwe-nee, Gwenu'n dirion yn dy hun? Gwe-nee'n DEER-yohn, uhn duh heen? Ai angylion fry sy'n gwenu, Aye ANG-UH-LEE-YON, vrree seen gwe-nee, Arnat ti yn gwenu'n llon, Arr-nat tee uhn gwe-nee'n LLON, (shape mouth for "L" and exhale) Tithau'n gwenu'n ôl dan huno, TI-THAYE'n gwe-nee'n ohl DAN hee-noh, Huno'n dawel ar fy mron? Heen-oh'n da-well arr vuh mrron? Paid ag ofni, dim ond deilen Pah-aye-d ag Ov-nee, dIm ohnd dei-len Gura, gura ar y ddôr; Gee-rrah, gee-rrah arr UH thorr; Paid ag ofni, ton fach unig Pah-aye-d ahg Ov-nee, tohn vahch ee-neegh Sua, sua ar lan y môr; See'AH, see'AH-arr lahn UH mohrr. Huna blentyn, nid oes yma Heen-ah blen-TIN, need oeiS UH-mah Ddim i roddi iti fraw; THIM ee rrohthee, eetee vrraw; Gwena'n dawel ar fy mynwes Gwe-nah'n da-well, arr vuh muhn-wess Ar yr engyl gwynion draw. Arr UR ein-GIL gwuhn-yohn drraw. If you want to PM me with a phone number I'll go over it with you. Falch eich bod chi wedi pasio'r can ymlaen i dy fab! sian |
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23 Feb 09 - 07:29 PM (#2574216) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: sully3561 Sian, Thanks so much! That softens it up a bit. My old Jesuit choir master was German, which accounts for my memories of a harsh "chllon" (llon) and "see'hrah" (sua), I suppose. Imagine a poor German's frustration while trying to teach a bunch of American kids with deep southern accents to sing in Latin, let alone Welsh! :) My son, Sean, is also challenged, given his west Texas twang edged by Spanish. This will help him, I'm sure. I had to Google "Empire of the Sun." I must have missed it, but I think we'll give it a go this weekend. Best, Tim PS - No language skills here; but, if you said something to the effect that I should be proud to be passing along the legacy to my son, you're quite right. I am! Thanks again. |
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24 Feb 09 - 09:19 AM (#2574632) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: sian, west wales You're welcome, Tim. The offer still stands. If you send a phone number, I can ring you (Skype-out is a wonderful thing for cheap international calls. Or, if you're on Skype, you can get me on tracdir) Any reason why you aren't using the first verse? sian |
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25 Feb 09 - 11:15 AM (#2575596) Subject: RE: Help: Huna blentyn: pronunciation From: sully3561 Sian, PM on the way... At first, we thought another boy was going to sing the first verse. That has apparently changed, and my boy will now sing all three. :) I think we covered the pronunciation of that one fairly well from the early comments in this thread. Talk soon... Tim
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