What the 'F'! The sequel.

22 Jun 01 - 12:02 AM (#489442)
Subject: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: Rick Fielding

My computer doesn't like long threads. This is carried over from this

One thing Marion that may be a bit "outside the norm" is getting your neck shaved a bit.

Lemme first say that (as many here know) I'm practically a fanatic about "having EVERYTHING work in your favour" as far as equipment goes. That goes for experimenting with string brands and guages until you come up with the one perfect for you, to making certain that your instrument suits you body, your hands, your style of music, your ear and everything else that contributes to playing being a fun and comfortable experience.

Sometimes that means spending a few more bucks than you wanted to, but to me music is simply my MAIN priority in life. It's the ONE thing that I have complete confidence in (doesn't mean I don't make mistakes..'cause I make lots!) and the one thing that I have unshakeable faith in. It simply has never let me down and never will. I guess for that reason, I want everyone to have the fun that I do out of it......Don't recommend you try to make your living at it though, unless your commitment is total.

So, blah, blah blah, to the part where I said "neck shaving"! It's a simple process. A good luthier or ACOUSTIC repair person can do it. I've been using Bruce Dowd in Toronto for twenty five years for all important instrument work. Just takes a little mass off the neck and won't hurt the stability. Had it done on my 1949 Martin (a sacriledge to some) and I love the job he did. Whether it's an antique or not (and whether the antique value drops by a couple of hundred) doesn't trouble me at all. It's my WORK tool, and I wanted the neck perfect for MY hands. Worth thinking about.

If you can already play the Gmaj7, without stress then you've got a good span.....and yeah, if you're real adventurous you COULD fret the sixth string with your thumb, I guess. Damn, if you lived in Toronto, at least I could try to help with that "F".

Cheers

Rick

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22 Jun 01 - 07:40 AM (#489605)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: GUEST

....Gmaj7 brings up an interesting question...which way do you like to play it (at the first position, or any position for that matter)?

For a more 'open' sound, I play it: M-1-2 (middle finger 1st string 2nd fret); I-5-2 (index 5th string 2nd fret); R-6-3 (ring 6th string 3rd fret)....

Barred: I-all-3;M-(3and4)-4; R-5-5. (this requires the player to bend the middle finger back at the first joint to make the little 'mini-barr' over the 3rd and 4th strings)

Never tried it but Gmaj7 at the 7th fret (2nd position) would seem pretty formidable...a little better at the 10th fret (3rd position)...

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22 Jun 01 - 11:01 AM (#489719)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: Rick Fielding

Here's a neat Gmaj7 to go with yours, guest

(I'm gonna try a new system 'for me' that others use a fair bit) it reads from the 6th string to the 1st.

3, X, 4, 4, 3, 2. (try to damp out the "X" (5th) string with either your thumb, or ring finger.

Rick

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22 Jun 01 - 12:44 PM (#489794)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: GUEST

Interesting.... Trying to determine fingering, though. What do you note the '3' on the sixth string with...your thumb?

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22 Jun 01 - 01:51 PM (#489833)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: Little Hawk

While we're at it...what's the best fingering for a B sharp demented chord with an extended ninth? Any alternate voicings?

- LH

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22 Jun 01 - 02:53 PM (#489881)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: Marion

John, thinking about your suggestion of dampening the A string in a thumbed F... that doesn't seem too different in principle from what I'm doing already (involuntarily dampening the high E). In both cases it's a moveable, five string, root position F with a real bass note - the only difference is which string you make your compromise on. Do you suppose it matters which one?

Rick, I get the feeling your vow to not rest until we're all playing 6 string Fs wasn't just a figure of speech.

Me going to Toronto? It's been known to happen. Probably will happen sometime this summer or fall.

Willie-o showed me a warmup exercise that involves some sideways stretching, so that probably accounts me having a respectable span now. It's the reach across the neck, not down it, that's the tricky bit.

OK, here's a Mudcat vow of my own. For the next month, twice a day, every day, when I am already warmed up from practicing other stuff, I'll work on the stretching exercise you describe and try to play the F. If I haven't made any progress in a month, I'll have the neck shaved. Or move to Toronto.

Cheers, Marion

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22 Jun 01 - 03:11 PM (#489888)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: Noreen

Rick, it's not polite to suggest to a lady that her neck needs shaving. Shows how much Marion thinks of you that she's even considering it...

Well, we all have to do what little we can to fill in for 'Spaw)

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22 Jun 01 - 04:59 PM (#489949)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: Jim Krause

LH writes "While we're at it...what's the best fingering for a B sharp demented chord with an extended ninth? Any alternate voicings?"

That's one of those questions I've lost a lot of sleep over, LH. And I've always wondered, howintheheck do you play one of those C# majorsevered dimentedfourths with a B in the bass?
Jim

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22 Jun 01 - 05:42 PM (#489981)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: 53

i don't seem to understand all the trouble that you guys are having with the f chord . this chord is just as simple as the rest of the chords that people play everyday. go back and listen to the beatles and other artists that used the acoustic guitar as part of their music; they didn't seem to have any problem with it.

maybe you guys are using the wrong type of guitar or either you don't understand guitar practice. also the use of a capo makes a lot of difference in playing rhythm guitar. i have been playing guitar for 36 years now and i can barre the f and can wrap the f with no problem. i have a gibson j-40, a takemine ltd 90, which i had set up for stage use that i used for 10 years professionally and now i have a taylor big baby, all of them play like a dream. martins just don't get it except for playing g c and d, which is fine since bluegrass sounds great caped. they are usually set up with medium to heavy strings to give the brash and hard-driving sound of bluegrass music, not folk music. it isn't a good guitar for learning to play, but for the advanced pro. martins are usually made for playing bluegrass and they have the action of a BASEBALL BAT. i am not trying to be funny, but be serious,if you're serious about your music you will learn to master any chord that holds you back from playing what you want to play - even if it means playing a different brand of guitar.

like i said back in april, get a guitar that is right for the way you plan to use it.

my wife has only been playing 3 months. i got her a taylor big baby to learn on. she has already made great progress on her f chord and now she is starting to work on her barre chords, most players learn the barre system after their first year of playing.

if you have trouble playing the acoustic guitar, may i suggest that you purchase a good electric guitar such as a fender strat or a gibson electric. remember bob dylan started out playing on an electric guitar before he switched over to an acoustic do you see any simalarity there? the action on most good electrics is very good. and maybe that will help you with your chord problems. thanks.

please respond with some good info. thanks, bob.

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22 Jun 01 - 05:51 PM (#489986)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: Justa Picker

Ah.....but it's easy to forget the novices; those with small hands; those with less dexterity in their hands than what we might be blessed with; those who may not pick things up as quickly as some others.

For a beginner, the F chord is the most difficult, and that's not even including the wrap around thumb, or playing it in a barre position. Bar chords can be extremely taxing as well. The tendons and muscles need time to "condition" in order to nail these types of chords comfortably and on the fly.

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22 Jun 01 - 05:58 PM (#489992)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: Jim Krause

OK I'll be serious, 53. I play a Mossman Tennesee Flattop made in 1976. I am the original owner, and a better guitar for fingerpicking I have not found. I also have a funky old round neck Dobro made in about 1935 that I inherited from my maternal grandfather. That thing is unplayable above the fifth fret, so I use it from time to time for bottleneck.

Whenever I can, I use the Thumb-over-the-neck technique to fret the sixth string when I need that moveable F chord shape. That way, I have my little finger free to fret the second or first string when the melody lies on those strings. I'm told that Merle Travis used this technique, and that he learned it from Ike Everly.

Looks like it's time to shut down. So I'm going home.
Jim

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22 Jun 01 - 08:33 PM (#490112)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: Rick Fielding

MMMMMmmmmmmmmm, Mossman! (picture Homer seeing a doughnut)

Jim, can I trade you my house for your Mossman? (Mine suffered 'neck twist' and I sold it). Finest acoustic guitar (other than that) that I ever owned.

Guest: yup, thumb, it's the only one left.

Noreen, you're right. A gentleman should NEVER ask a lady to shave her neck. Send your guitar to a spa and let then do it! 'Course I once had this girlfriend who played Grand piano. Seemed the piano legs were a bit on the stubby side, so I suggested she sh..............sorry!

Marion: You're right. I shall not rest til the world is full of six string Fs.

Rick

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22 Jun 01 - 08:50 PM (#490116)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: 53

Marion,

How long have you been playing guitar? Are you expecting too much too soon? In other words are you a novice, like me? I'm the one who has been playing only 3 months. Bob tends to brag on me - but I really still struggle with that f chord also. I understand that some - maybe most - Mudcatters have been playing for a lot of years. Well, maybe I am wrong. I am new here this year and am just trying to read all I can on guitar threads.

Glenda (The '53')

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22 Jun 01 - 11:24 PM (#490153)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: Marion

Well Noreen, thanks for looking out for my interests. But neck shaving doesn't sound so bad - I'm just hoping it doesn't come to having to dislocate all my finger joints.

Hello Glenda 53, and welcome. Have you been through this thread dynasty yet? Help for Pickers It's in three parts so far, full of tips and encouragement, and links to other threads.

Cheers, Marion

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22 Jun 01 - 11:52 PM (#490161)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: GUEST,Frogmore

Rick, You reminded me of the night my friend Jim and I were doing a duo in Flagler Beach, Florida. We took a break and a fancy sort of fellow asked if he could hold Jim's custom-made Berger guitar. (Mine is too.) He remarked, "what a shame - you've got a scratch on it!" Jim doesn't have much space for this kind of attitude and retorted, "Damnit, it's a hammer! I work with it!" Well put, I thought. "Value"? What is that? We made a few $ and the fancy fellow spent $20 to drink beer and be taught a lesson. Consider Willie Nelson's guitar.....

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23 Jun 01 - 12:14 AM (#490173)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: Rick Fielding

I'm with you frogmore. Guitars and cars are the tools of my trade, and I don't want to get too paranoid about either. I love the look of the new Collings guitars, and Grit Laskin has been a friend for years.....but those beautiful finishes would probably mean I'd be scared to let someone handle it...and I don't want that. My old Martin can take whatever happens to it. 'Course after I've croaked, Heather might not get as much for it if I hadn't had the neck shaved....but C'est La Vie.

Rick

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23 Jun 01 - 01:16 PM (#490399)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: M.Ted

It'll be collectable because it belonged to Rick Fielding--and the shaved neck will be proof that you really played it, rather than just bought it and stuck it in a closet--

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23 Jun 01 - 07:29 PM (#490598)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: mooman

I'm your man for any kind of demented chord!

Rick, I went to have my neck shaved as well after reading your recommendation above but the hairdresser said she wouldn't do it because of a nasty pimple in the way.

mooman

(Actually I have the opposite problem to Rick. Because I have large hands I have a custom extra-wide and fairly deep neck on my Lakewood!)

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25 Jun 01 - 11:47 AM (#491443)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: GUEST

Rick,

Tried your fingering for the Gmaj7...sounds too much like a Bm to me, even with the 6th string G...that G bass note is just not enough to carry the chord....

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25 Jun 01 - 12:02 PM (#491457)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: M.Ted

GUEST--A Gmaj7 chord *is* just a Bminor chord with an added G--

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25 Jun 01 - 12:13 PM (#491468)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: GUEST

Yeah, but to this ear G-B-D-G-B-F# or G-D-F#-B-D-G (read from 6th string to 1st) sounds more like Gmaj7 than G-X-F#-B-D-F#.

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25 Jun 01 - 12:19 PM (#491474)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: Rick Fielding

Thanks Ted. Yeah, a major seventh chord is pretty subtle...and even moreso depending where the root note is. A simple A maj7 (002120) because of it's voicing is quite distinctive. Likewise a Cmaj7 (332000) but the voicings for a lower position G maj.7, are quite different and simply won't sound the same.

'Cause I play solo so often I try to get the fullest chord possible at all times, and there are certain keys that just have what you're lookin' for, and others that don't. If you're working with a bass player (who knows what they're doin') it's a whole different pallette.

Rick

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26 Jun 01 - 10:26 AM (#492158)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: M.Ted

Guest, For me, the defining sound in a GMAJ7 chord is that major seventh interval G-F#(which is also a minor second), and in the version that you don't like, there are two F#'s, and octave apart--so that sound is really strong--

Your favorite version of the chord has a real strong secondary sound--the Twelveth or fifth--B-F#, which is the strongest sound in a B minor chord--

The point being that these inversions really do sound signivicantly different--even though we think of them as being comparable, they really have a different sound-- I personally like the Gmaj7 that is 3-X-4-4-3-X best--and in accompaniments, will gravitate toward dropping the D--using 3-X-4-3-X-X, if I can get away with it--it gives a really jazzy sound, walking the line between cool and out there--

It comes down to a taste thing--with my liking dissonance in the bottom--an unresolved sound, and you're liking a resolved sound in the bottom with a bent sort of sound at the top--Either one works, but each one has different possibilities--

It is really important to think about the sound of each chord alone, rather than simply as a just a passing element in a chord progression, because when we play, people hear the overall sound, not the just the notes--

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26 Jun 01 - 11:22 AM (#492214)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: Mark Clark

The first GMaj7 chord I usually think of is the 3-X-4-4-3-X fingering that M.Ted prefers. Another choice I really like is 7-X-5-7-7-X. This one is really pretty in descending passages like you might find in "Summertime."

These are really jazz chords and as such you should always strive to move from one chord to the next moving as few notes as possible while keeping the general direction—descending vs. ascending—consistent.

      - Mark

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26 Jun 01 - 02:11 PM (#492353)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: M.Ted

Mark Clark,

That B on top Gmaj7 chord is also a good fingering to use for Bm6--not to seem contradictory or anything, but it sounds really nice to play an arpeggio on that chord at the end of a single note run--a Locrian scale in G, for instance, and just let it hang there--

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30 Jun 01 - 12:59 AM (#495251)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: Marion

You know what I did this evening?

Played a thumbed F with six strings sounding.

Now what's this about a C fingered Eb chord?

Marion

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30 Jun 01 - 06:29 PM (#495572)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: 53

Marion,

Here is the C fingered Eb chord - Barre the first finger on the third fret, then the other three fingers play as in a three fingered C chord.

Bob

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02 Jul 01 - 11:22 PM (#497176)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: Marion

Three things:

1. Thanks 53. That barre on the third fret would only have to be across the top three strings, right?

2. I can see the practical advantages that the thumbed F has over a barre F, but not vice versa. Once I get this thumbed F to the point where I can play it reliably in context and not just in isolation with a lot of adjustments, why would I have to master the barre F too?

3. For the benefit of others who may be trying to learn the thumbed F, I'll explain what I was doing wrong, and how I learned to play it properly.

That two string barre on the first fret - because it's a barre, I automatically used the flat of my index finger (i.e., directly opposite to my nail) to press the strings. Then for my other fingers to reach their places, I was bending the first finger joint backwards - but I still couldn't reach with my other fingers, and that backwards joint flexibility doesn't seem to respond to exercise; conscientious practice wasn't getting me anywhere.

The breakthrough came when I tried using my index finger in a very different way - both first and second joints bent sharply in, and pressing the strings with the very tip of my finger - actually the B string is pressed with my nail. It's a delicate job to hold two strings firmly with just a fingertip, but it's doable, and unlike the flat-of-my-finger approach, it does give me the angle to use my ring and little finger.

I hope that was comprehensible and useful to somebody. I guess the moral here is: trying harder and practicing more will only help if you're doing it right.

Marion

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03 Jul 01 - 12:12 AM (#497193)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: M.Ted

There are a lot of reasons that you would use different fingerings, even when the same strings are down. The full barre F is a lot easier to run up and down the neck,and is smoother when you run from F-F13-Fmaj7-F6 and the "thumbover" position can give you blisters and callouses in fairly quickly on the soft inside of the thumb-joint--A lot of players, especially those with formal training, don't even regard the thumbover as valid way of fingering a chord--

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03 Jul 01 - 12:21 AM (#497196)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: Murray MacLeod

MTed, I thought I hadn't seen you around for a while !

Merle Travis certainly wouldn't be numbered among that particular group of players who eschew the thumbed F chord, would he?

Murray

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03 Jul 01 - 12:22 AM (#497197)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: John Hardly

"I can see the practical advantages that the thumbed F has over a barre F, but not vice versa. Once I get this thumbed F to the point where I can play it reliably in context and not just in isolation with a lot of adjustments, why would I have to master the barre F too?"

...because 332233 to 131233 is one of the coolest two chord progressions that the guitar is capable of (Of which the guitar is capable, *preposition properly placed*)

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03 Jul 01 - 12:30 AM (#497199)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: Murray MacLeod

John, I would appreciate it if you could give me a f'rinstance of a song on which you would use that particular progression.

Murray

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03 Jul 01 - 06:26 AM (#497319)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: John Hardly

"Baby, Baby All The Time" {Bobby Troup)

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03 Jul 01 - 07:26 AM (#497349)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: 53

RE the Eb: As I said before:"... the C fingered Eb chord - Barre the first finger on the third fret, then the other three fingers play as in a three fingered C chord."

You asked: "That barre on the third fret would only have to be across the top three strings, right?"

Wrong! For a full orchestrated Eb you would need to use the complete barre in the 3rd fret. The next three fingers go: finger 2 on second string, 4th fret, finger 3 fourth string, 5th fret, finger 4 on 5th string, 6ht fret.

BUT if you want a different way to play the Eb just slide the D chord up one fret and play only the top three strings. You can add the little finger on the 4th string , 5th fret. That might be good for finger pickers.

But if you want other ways let me know and I will give you others.

Bob

Bob

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03 Jul 01 - 10:52 AM (#497499)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: M.Ted

53, that Eb has the 3rd on the bottom, which, for a lot of purposes, is an odd kind of sound--In my trusty book, "The Mel Bay Chord System for Rhythm and Orchestral Guitar", he uses 6-X-5--3-4-X, This isn't a barre chord at all-- he puts the pinky on the the Low E string, 6th fret, and has the index on the G string, fourth fret--but it is a real powerful, chord--The inversion is often called the Sixth Chord, because the interval at the bottom is a major 6th--Bb-G-Bb-Eb, Fundamental is at the top. If you play the two chords next to each other, you will be surprised at how much more punch the 6th has, even though there are fewer notes played--

Murray,

I was the first kid on my block to have the Bear Family Merle Travis Boxed set--and I would never say anything against the boy--I say use your thumb when you need it--I was just responding to Marion's comment that she didn't see why anyone would ever use the full barre F--

Back in the psychedelic 60's, when there was powerful distain for country music in some quarters, I used to hang out at a music store with an old fellow who was quite an accomplished Travis picker--one day he was playing something for me when a classical player(who I also knew) stepped in and said, "You should never use the thumb, it's improper technique"--my friend handed him the Chet Atkins Country Gentleman he was playing, and said, "Fine--Show me another way to play it, then"--

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03 Jul 01 - 01:09 PM (#497617)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: Rick Fielding

Hi Ted

When we (Mum, dad, and moi) moved back to Toronto, when I was 18 (from Montreal) my mother suggested I take some REAL lessons from a "serious" guitarist. He was a veteran studio pop player and a very nice man.

I went to see him and he didn't even ask what I'd learned or accomplished in my three years of playing before plopping the sheet music to "Red River valley" in front of me. He asked me to start reading the melody line (I couldn't read at that time) and I gave it a shot...slowly. After an hour he still didn't know what I COULD play already, and I was pretty frustrated. Simply put, he was going throuh the motions without a hint of personal interest.

When the "lesson" ended, I summoned up the courage (I wasn't the outgoing blabbermouth I am now, in those days) to simply play something for him. I played Merle's "Blue Smoke", and "Cannonball Rag" and Chet's "Windy and Warm". (put 'em into a two minute medley)

When I had finished, he frowned and said "You have to stop using your thumb"(I think he meant BOTH right and left hand). I replied, "how do I keep the beat going, then?" He said "THAT'S WHAT THE BASS PLAYER AND DRUMMER ARE SUPPOSED TO DO"! He apparently didn't feel that "solo" guitar (other than classical) was even a valid form of music.

Almost thirty years later I bumped into him at a concert I was doing, and we started jamming. He's still definitely from the "old school" but he played "Bye Bye Blues" in "Merle" style. Gawd I was tempted to tell him to "get rid of those thumb chords!"... but I didn't. Takes a while I guess, but folk music had caught up to him!

Rick

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03 Jul 01 - 01:22 PM (#497626)
Subject: RE: What the 'F'! The sequel.
From: M.Ted

I never quite know what to think about people like that--do they get points for changing, or are the just going whatever way the wind blows?

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