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25 Jun 01 - 07:38 PM (#491797) Subject: Music Nurds Assemble! Implying.... From: Peter T. How much of a chord do you need to imply the rest of the chord? I know that power chords (1-5) sort of do the trick -- I am a guitar player -- but are there rules for other circumstances, when the music is more complex, i.e. you only need to change one note in a progression once the ear is prepared, etc.? Are there any reasonable rules, or is it all ear? Sometimes it seems that you need the whole beast, and sometimes not. yours, Peter T. |
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26 Jun 01 - 03:00 AM (#491997) Subject: RE: Music Nurds Assemble! Implying.... From: hesperis Well, some jazz pianists use only a few notes of a chord to imply that chord. But unless you've studied the theory, you probably wouldn't know that the notes ACDEFAB all at once, are supposed to be Am13 or whatever... (I don't know it, I've just seen some weird stuff. LOL!) |
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26 Jun 01 - 03:10 AM (#492000) Subject: RE: Music Nurds Assemble! Implying.... From: pavane Well, you really need a book on theory, but... A minimum of three notes are needed to define an actual chord. Two notes define an interval, and a chord is made up of two or more intervals. The types of interval involved determine the type of chord. For example, a major chord contains a major third (e.g. C to E) and then a minor third (E to G) (working upwards from the bass). A minor chord contains a minor third and a major third. That means C to Eb followed by Eb to G. Two notes forming a fifth (C to G) cam imply a chord, but not whether it is major or minor. Does that help? Probably not! |
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26 Jun 01 - 05:00 AM (#492017) Subject: RE: Music Nurds Assemble! Implying.... From: Don Firth Exactly right, pavane. All sorts of notes can be piled on, of course, but three (a triad) is the minimum necessary for it to be an official, ordained chord. One can imply a chord, either major or minor, by playing the root and 3rd (e.g., C and E, leaving the G out), but C and G without the E is just an interval -- an open 5th. We had a knock-down-drag-out over this awhile back. Here: *TWANG!!* Don Firth |
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26 Jun 01 - 05:46 AM (#492028) Subject: RE: Music Nurds Assemble! Implying.... From: pavane As author of a program which adds chords to tunes, I had to learn a little about it! I will have a shufti at the thread. |
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26 Jun 01 - 07:48 AM (#492065) Subject: RE: Music Nurds Assemble! Implying.... From: RichM Well, in trad Irish music that I play...the chords are weakly attached to the music, so I can "imply" a lot! In changes from D to Bm for instance, I'll often play the low B note only, if the Bm is held for only one beat. In bluegrass though, woe to the one who doesn't make the right chord change at the right time! No implied chords please, or you get lots of frowns from your band mates. Rich McCarthy |
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26 Jun 01 - 08:17 AM (#492082) Subject: RE: Music Nurds Assemble! Implying.... From: John P When playing music that is mostly diatonic, like most folk music, the ear expects to only hear the notes that fall within one major scale. This means that the available chords are limited. In a C major scale, you can have C, Dm, Em, F, G, Am, and Bdim. When the melody goes to, say, an A at the beginning of a measure, the chords that might fit in that location are Dm (D, F, A,) or F (F, A, C) or Am (A, C, E). Thus, if you play a D note by itself while the melody is playing that A, the ear will hear a Dm chord. If you play an E, the ear will hear an Am chord. If you play a C, the ear will hear either an F chord or an Am chord, depending on what else is going on around it. If you want it to be more specified than that you will have to play two notes. Since you are more likely to be playing two or more notes anyway, the chord will usually become obvious when heard along with the melody note. Or not -- you could play a C and an A along with the A in the melody, and the ear could still hear either an F chord or an Am chord and you would have to play all three notes to be completely obvious. Or not -- the rest of the notes in the measure may well define your chord for you, even if you only play one or two notes. For instance, with the A in the melody on the first beat of the measure, you play an A and an F. This could be either a Dm chord or an F chord. But let's say the third beat of the measure has a C in the melody. Now, between the A and the F you are playing, and the the A and the C in the melody, you have a clearly defined F chord. Or not -- maybe when the third beat comes you change to playing an A and an E. Suddenly you have an Am chord on the third beat, just by changing one note by half a step. You can, of course, start adding sevenths to chords and make it a good deal more complicated. It goes on and on . . . John Peekstok |
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26 Jun 01 - 08:32 AM (#492087) Subject: RE: Music Nurds Assemble! Implying.... From: Peter T. Thanks guys, esp. John P -- that is exactly the kind of thing I was looking for to get my head around it. yours, Peter T. |
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26 Jun 01 - 10:48 AM (#492177) Subject: RE: Music Nurds Assemble! Implying.... From: Mark Clark Yeah, I really like John's answer as well. It seems to me that we have two things under discussion here: one is canon law of music theory and the other is application of sounds to make pleasing art. A detailed knowledge of theory can be very helpful when arranging music or even when improvising a solo but, in most of the music we all play, it is the artist who must select from a pallate of suitable sounds to create a properly balanced and self consistant background for a song. Whether a full chord is chosen or a simple interval or even a single note depends on what the artist finds most effective, not on some formula defined by theory. - Mark |
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26 Jun 01 - 02:45 PM (#492373) Subject: RE: Music Nurds Assemble! Implying.... From: Justa Picker Interesting. When I studied theory (many moons ago) I was taught that 2 notes comprised a chord, with the root (lower) note determining the chord name. Everything else is gravy. |
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26 Jun 01 - 04:13 PM (#492412) Subject: RE: Music Nurds Assemble! Implying.... From: Don Firth Good explanation, John. Fun to play around with real sparse arrangements and see what you hear when the whole chord is not there. I think it was Pete Seeger who once said, "It isn't how many notes you play -- it's that the notes you do play are important!" Don Firth |
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26 Jun 01 - 04:56 PM (#492439) Subject: RE: Music Nurds Assemble! Implying.... From: Amos Just listen to Fred Hellerman backing up Dylan on his "Corrine Corrine" to hear how two note intervals can appear to flesh out not only chords but a whole sequence of expected transitions -- in this case the 1,4,5 of an expected blues song with 7ths and minor intervals entwined throughout. All done in a series of two-note pairs. A |
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26 Jun 01 - 05:54 PM (#492488) Subject: RE: Music Nurds Assemble! Implying.... From: pavane The lower note only determines the chord in root position. Not true for First and second inversions. |
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26 Jun 01 - 05:57 PM (#492492) Subject: RE: Music Nurds Assemble! Implying.... From: Justa Picker True, Pavane. Nevertheless, 2 notes do form a chord. |
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26 Jun 01 - 06:59 PM (#492539) Subject: RE: Music Nurds Assemble! Implying.... From: Don Firth I swear, this verges on some of the medieval discussions of theology.
"Two!" Don Firth |
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26 Jun 01 - 08:26 PM (#492616) Subject: RE: Music Nurds Assemble! Implying.... From: Amos At least we aren't decapitating each other on the issue. A |
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26 Jun 01 - 10:29 PM (#492690) Subject: RE: Music Nurds Assemble! Implying.... From: Rick Fielding Amos, was that fred hellerman? For years I thought it was Bruce Langhorne. Fred's a favourite of mine. Rick |
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27 Jun 01 - 02:53 AM (#492794) Subject: RE: Music Nurds Assemble! Implying.... From: pavane Lets look at it another way. The SAME notes can be parts of different chords, depending on context (e.g. the key of the rest of the tune). C and E can be part of C, Am, and various other less likely chords. With only 2 notes, there is more ambiguity, and there are more possible chords which they could be part of. So although they may be a chord, it is not always possible to tell IN ISOLATION which chord it is! |
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27 Jun 01 - 01:18 PM (#493137) Subject: RE: Music Nurds Assemble! Implying.... From: Mark Clark Yeah, so? |
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27 Jun 01 - 06:23 PM (#493430) Subject: RE: Music Nurds Assemble! Implying.... From: Peter T. To add a bit more to this mix, we are also dealing here with voicings. Presumably the bottom bass note and the top melody note are usually the most important anchors for what is going on for the ear. So you could be hanging chords off the bass line like clothes on a clothesline, and the voicings would enable you to both do that, and imply more of a chord than you need. One mote in a bass chord could imply the chord because the progression is anticipated by the mind. yours, Peter T. |
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27 Jun 01 - 06:25 PM (#493432) Subject: RE: Music Nurds Assemble! Implying.... From: Peter T. Sorry, I couldn't see because of this beam in my eye. NOTE. yours, Peter T. |