|
27 Jun 01 - 05:45 PM (#493393) Subject: Question for Old West history buffs From: katlaughing In doing research for footnotes etc. on the family history book I am working on, I've been trying to find the actual name of the wagon trail from Kansas to Leadville, Colorado, which followed the Arkansas River. My great-granddad went by wagon train to Leadville that way and I'd like to include the name of the trail as well as maybe a simple map. I have spent a couple of hours finding all kinds of info on the railroads, wonderful oral histories by someone's Aunt Carol and others, as well as a bunch of other history, but none which actually name the trail. Anyone know the name? Or, a good site with specific info on just the wagon trail? Thanks a bunch! kat
You know you all get a mention in the book, right?!**BG** |
|
27 Jun 01 - 05:59 PM (#493402) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: Sorcha kat, could it have been a branch of the Overland Trail? |
|
27 Jun 01 - 06:03 PM (#493407) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: Jim Krause Kat, The Santa Fe Trail ran from Westport (now part of modern Kansas City, MO) southeast to Council Grove KS, then angled along toward the Arkansas River where it crossed near modern day Great Bend, KS. One then could follow the Santa Fe toward modern La Junta, CO where there was a trading post called Bent's Fort. Modern US Highway 56 nearly parallels the Santa Fe Trail. Does that help? Jim |
|
27 Jun 01 - 06:05 PM (#493412) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: Bev and Jerry You might try www.frontiertrailscenter.com Sorry I don't know how to put in the blue clickie things and Jerry's too busy to help right now. Bev |
|
27 Jun 01 - 06:14 PM (#493419) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: Dave (the ancient mariner) I only know of the Oregon Trail kat but it could be part of the general Gold Rush Trail. The Unsinkable Molly Brown of Titanic fame had some connection to Leadville. Here's a link that might help. Yours, Aye. Dave Click Here |
|
27 Jun 01 - 06:17 PM (#493423) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: GUEST,Karen Here's more on the Santa Fe Trail. |
|
27 Jun 01 - 06:30 PM (#493436) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: Bev and Jerry Jerry just reminded me of the Oregon-California Trails Association. Check them out at www.octa-trails.org Bev |
|
27 Jun 01 - 06:41 PM (#493444) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: katlaughing Thanks, everyone! I just finally got agold of dad and he said he didn't think it ever had a name, everyone just said they "came up the Arkansas" so he guesses "the Arkansas Trail" would be about right, though no one ever called it that. Sorcha, I don't think the Overland went up in the mtns enough in CO to make Leadville; the Oregon Trail didn't go through CO and was an east-west trail, but thanks anyway, Dave. Bev & Jerry, and Karen, I will check out the other links. Jim, Dad says they may have followed the Santa Fe a short while until it went south. I guess I could just make Rog take a vacation, got to Leadville and follow the darn river down to Kansas!**BG** It would be fun to get some pix! Thanks, very much. I will have to give a BIG kudo to my crack research team! kat |
|
27 Jun 01 - 09:05 PM (#493545) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: Mark Clark Could it have been the Colorado Trail. I found a site with a reference to the Colorado Trail but I think it refers to a modern recreational trail. Still, Carl Sandburg wrote a song celebrating the Colorado Trail. The South Platte Trail may also be a candidate. I did find an article on Leadville's Last Whorehouse that looked cool. Nothing else looks promising. - Mark |
|
27 Jun 01 - 11:19 PM (#493626) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: Rex Jim Krause pretty well covered it Kat. But if you want to be more concise, I have heard it refered to as Bent's Fork of the Santa Fe Trail. Rex |
|
27 Jun 01 - 11:45 PM (#493644) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: Lin in Kansas John In Remote Kansas (JIRK) on LIK's cookie One would think that having been raised on the banks of the Arkansas River in Kansas this would be easy The modern maps show that following the Arkansas River would probably have been the simplest way to get to Leadville, but the history books I have at hand don't give a name for that trail. As mentioned above, the Santa Fe Trail followed the Arkansas from about Great Bend, Kansas to Dodge City. One of my old Jr Hi (now "middle school" I guess) history books implies that the early Santa Fe Trail may have continued along the river for a little further west. The later "commercial" trail (after 1860?) went more directly south from Dodge City. The later route is the one seen on most maps. The Oregon Trail went roughly through the area, but was further north. The Oregon Trail followed the Missouri and Smoky Hill Rivers. The Oregon Trail was popular with gold rush travelers in 1849, but Colorado gold wasn't discovered (near Pikes Peak - Colorado Springs) until 1859. The "Pike's Peak or Bust" flag was popular then. The big strike at Central City was very soon after (later 1859), and much of the mountain area between Colorado Springs and Denver seems to have been settled soon after. The Overland Trail that is so much remembered in song and other tradition never officially extended west of the Mississippi - although there were so many songs about it that travelers on almost any trail might have applied the name. You might also run into references to The Mormon Trail, which came from "back east" and essentially joined with and became part of the Oregon Trail near Independence Missouri. You haven't indicated when your great-grand daddy reached Leadville, but immigration into this area and points further west continued for a rather long time. The Homestead Act (1862) allowed people to actually own the ranch, and much of central Kansas and parts west were still being homesteaded in the early 1890s. From Dodge City KS to Pueblo CO, US Highway 50 would be very close to any route that followed the Arkansas River. John |
|
28 Jun 01 - 01:10 AM (#493684) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: Jim Dixon Here's a link to The Colorful History of Leadville Colorado. I didn't see the name of the trail there, but it does have some links you could follow up. Trails are most often named after the place they go to, so if I had to guess, I'd say "Leadville Trail" is as likely as any. That's assuming the town existed before the trail was well-established. |
|
28 Jun 01 - 01:18 AM (#493686) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: Night Owl Anyone have or played the computor game "Oregon Trail"? I remember it listed other trails, but can't remember which ones. |
|
28 Jun 01 - 02:09 AM (#493697) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: SeanM Spent a summer up with my grandparents, campground hosting an hour or so outside of Leadville. Nice little town... If I remember correctly, Joseph May started the original May Company there... Not that this has anything to do with the thread. Just thought I'd show off pointless trivia. Sorry. M |
|
28 Jun 01 - 11:37 AM (#493997) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: GUEST,Karen I bought the "Oregon Trail" PC game for my son. He didn't like it as much as I hoped he would. If I get a chance I'll take a look at it when I get home tonight. |
|
28 Jun 01 - 12:00 PM (#494015) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: Kim C I should know that - shame on me. I have been to Leadville, many years back. A very charming place. |
|
28 Jun 01 - 03:51 PM (#494189) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: katlaughing It's okay, phoaks, really. I think my dad is right, they just "went up the Arkansas." I think they may have cirsscrossed some of the others, but for the purpose of my book, I am just going to leave it at that and include a simple map, I think. NOT, that I don't appreciate all of your postings and links. I will look into them! Leadville has been in our family off and on over the years, with both sets of great-grandparents settling there. We used to camp on Shrine Pass in the summertime and I remember visiting my great-aunt and uncle in a darling little Victorian house in the early 1960's and being led into the kitchen as the parlour was not opened for family, only guests, plus it was cold, even in the summer, and the kitchen woodstove was lit, while the parlour's was not. That same great-aunt embroidered pillowcases for me when I was married the first time in 1969 and she muct've been in her mid-80's at least. My mom, dad, brother, and sister lived at Camp Hale thereduring WWII, while Dad built the ski lift at Copper Mtn, for the troops to practice on before they shipped out to the Alps. Now, of course it is a huge ski resort. The last time I was there we went to the Tabor Opera House. There was an old lady there, almost lost in its cavernous darkness. She was the tour guide and had written a book about, which she autographed. She also told me about my great-aunt, whom she had known. I know my kids and I were all impressed with the fact that they had live circuses on the stage, including wild tigers with nothing between the audience and them but a few feet of stage. She was a precious treasure trove. I wish I'd had a tape recorder that day and more time. Have any of you heard the opera, "The Ballad of Baby Doe" about Baby Doe Tabor whom Horace dumped Augusta for, and whom died a penniless old lady at the Matchless Mine which she'd promised never to sell? It is a beautiful opera, in English, with some really wonderful songs. I have a recording made in the 1950's with Beverly Sills singing as Baby Doe. I'll give Bill Sables a holler and see if he'll come in and tell us about his ancestor who was in Leadville. I'll also see about linking some of the really old pix I have of it, from my grandmother's albums. I've a couple fo darling ones of her and her sisters, in the height of Victorian fashion only one of them is atop a picket fence, in her dress and hat with a young gentleman holding her hand while she smiles for the camera. Nothing stodgy! LOL Thanks, very much, kat |
|
28 Jun 01 - 07:35 PM (#494352) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: bill\sables I do have coppies of the original newspapers from Leadville from the time but I can't lay my hands on them at the moment. It seems my great uncle,Richard Sables, traveled from California to Leadville in the 1890's to work in the mines there. One night he was in a saloon there (probably drunk) and he got into an argument with three or four other fellows and somehow it ended up with him shooting the fiddler. He was arrested and went to trial after spending one night in jail. It seemed he was set free because he pleaded self defence and returnrd home to Cumbria UK where he later died. While Allan C and myself were traveling across Colorado last year we visited Leadville and I asked a few people whether they had heard of my uncle and the case. I was told that in the 1890's it was a fronteer town and that killings were an everyday ocourance amongst the miners so what was one among so many. I was also shown a painting from that time of Second Srteet where there were about 60 saloons. Kat , when I find the newspaper reports I will scan them and send you a copy. Cheers Bill |
|
28 Jun 01 - 07:50 PM (#494362) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: katlaughing Thanks, Bill! That sounds about like my dad has described it, from his grandparents' descriptions. |
|
28 Jun 01 - 08:36 PM (#494378) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Latch on to www.santafetrail@stjohnks.net. Larry and Carolyn Mix, at this site, will answer any questions about the trails. You can get a map of the MOUNTAIN BRANCH of the Santa Fe Trail, which went into Colorado and along the Arkansas River before turning SW to Trinidad, CO. It is the one that went by Bent's Fort and Ft. Lyon. The site for the map is www.nmhu.edu.research/sftrail/mapsft1. |
|
28 Jun 01 - 08:41 PM (#494379) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) The MOUNTAIN BRANCH of the SANTA FE TRAIL is the one you want. Travelers going west from Bent's Fort area left the trail at Bent's Fort and followed the Arkansas River. |
|
28 Jun 01 - 08:58 PM (#494391) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: katlaughing I don't think so, Dicho, but I'll check. Leadville is north up the Arkansas, as the river runs north to south, in the Colorado portion, at least. I will contact them, though, thanks. |
|
28 Jun 01 - 09:46 PM (#494417) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) The Arkansas is essentially east-west across CO to near Pueblo, then it courses NW-SE as you get farther upstream. I think we are both partly right. Being more akin to the SE part of CO (La Veta-Walsenburg area) I think of the Arkansas as that river which runs E-W from the Kansas border to the La Junta area. |
|
28 Jun 01 - 11:33 PM (#494472) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: katlaughing Sorry, I think you are right. I've always thought of it running "down" south from Leadville, so just goes to show how much perspective can make us think one thing.:-) I thought I posted this link earlier, but I guess not. It is a fairly simple map showing the flow of the river. Yesterday, if you clicked on a specific area, it went to a close-up; for some reason it is not working tonight. Thanks, Dicho, kat |
|
29 Jun 01 - 07:24 AM (#494628) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: MikeofNorthumbria Leadville is also famous for a much recycled quotation which is still relevant to most working musicians.
"From Salt Lake City one travels over the great plains of Colorado and up the Rocky Mountains, on the top of which is Leadville, the richest city in the world. It has also got the reputation of being the roughest, and every man carries a revolver. I was told that if I went there they would be sure to shoot me or my traveling manager. I wrote and told them that nothing that they could do to my traveling manager would intimidate me. They are miners—men working in metals, so I lectured to them on the Ethics of Art. I read them passages from the autobiography of Benvenuto Cellini and they seemed much delighted. I was reproved by my hearers for not having brought him with me. I explained that he had been dead for some little time which elicited the enquiry "Who shot him?" They afterwards took me to a dancing saloon where I saw the only rational method of art criticism I have ever come across. Over the piano was printed a notice:
PLEASE DO NOT SHOOT THE PIANIST. HE IS DOING HIS BEST.
The mortality among pianists in that place is marvelous. "
Oscar Wilde: Impressions of America (1883) Wassail!
|
|
30 Jun 01 - 04:39 AM (#495297) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: Sourdough When I was living in Washington, DC, I was friendly with Nancy Reagan's social secretary. One day as we drove through DC on my motorcycle, somehting made her think of her father who had been active in politics and business. She told me that he had been invited to the wedding of Baby Doe and Hoss Tabor which took place in Washington. Because of the notoriety of Baby Doe and how Horace had treated Augusta, his first wife. It turned out that no other women showed up at the wedding. Tabor was a major force in the country because of his wealth and senators and i think even the President showed up for his wedding but not a single one of their wives did. Tabor was wiped out when the government changed its monetary policy. I don't remember the details but it had to do with the gold and silver standards. The price of silver plummeted. The change of fortune was too much for Hoss who died not long after. Baby Doe turned out to be a faithful wife and when Hoss died, his last words to her were that silver would come back and that she should keep his famous silver mine, the Matchless. She never sold the mine. She lived out the rest of her life in a shack there. She had so little money that people in Leadville used to help her out, even having groceries delivered. A woman I met in Leadville told me she remembered a a girl seeing Baby Doe as an old woman coming into town and that it was her relative, I think a cousin, who as a young delivery boy found Baby Doe dead in the cabin one winter morning. Hearing her tell the story made shivers run up my spine. Sourdough |
|
30 Jun 01 - 05:49 AM (#495307) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: Sourdough For the record, Horace Tabor was known as HAW Tabor, not Hoss. That's what I get for writing off the top of my head. A repentant Sourdough |
|
30 Jun 01 - 10:35 AM (#495376) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: GUEST,rambam99 you sure it's not the old Smoky Hill Trail? My High School in Colorado was named that, and it was supposed to go from Kansas to Leadville |
|
30 Jun 01 - 10:58 PM (#495688) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: GUEST,Lyle Kat: Before we can give you a definitive answer to that, we need to know the year you are talking about. There were a BUNCH of trails, as others have pointed out, but they were not all around at the same time. For example, the Smoky Hill Trail that rambam99 mentioned was mainly developed during the Colorado gold rush; before that, people mainly (but not always) went to Colorado after leaving the Santa Fe trail at Old Bents Fort. Give me a date, and I'll see if I can give you more info. BTW, the Smoky Hill Trail was not an easy one to find or follow, as the Blues Brothers from Missouri found out. Could be called "cannibalism on the trail!" Lyle |
|
01 Jul 01 - 12:33 AM (#495727) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: katlaughing Thanks, Lyle, I thought I had, but now see that I didn't. He left Indian Territory in the Spring of 1880 and arrived in Leadville in May of that year, according to his published obit. Thanks, everyone! kat |
|
01 Jul 01 - 07:28 PM (#496141) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: GUEST,Lyle Kat: Rather than try to send a bunch of stuff that may not be appropriate, there is a web site that may be of more help. http://www.cc.ukans.edu/heritage/werner/werner.html Scroll down to the "Trails" section, and you'll get tons of info. If you can't find it there, let me know and I'll hunt some more or look through some of my stuff. Lyle |
|
02 Jul 01 - 12:56 PM (#496666) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: Sandy Paton W. J. Ghent's The Road to Oregon (1929) has a map on page 9 showing the many trails and their branches. From Bent's Fort on up the Arkansas toward Leadville, it shows the trail to be a continuation of "The Cherokee Trail." This trail started out at Fort Smith, Arkansas, dropped down into Oklahoma (to which the Cherokee were exiled at the time of the "Trail of Tears"), joined the Santa Fe at what looks to be near Dodge City, Kansas, maybe (no towns on the map), stuck with the Santa Fe as far as Bent's Fort, then swung off to the northwest, following the river to the mountains. On the other hand, I think the Cherokee Trail turned north at Pueblo (or thereabouts) and followed the eastern edge of the mountains to the point where it joined the Oregon Trail in southern Wyoming. At that point, it turned abruptly west and stuck with the Oregon Trail toward Fort Bridger. In that case, I'm afraid it didn't penetrate the mountains deeply enough to reach Leadville. So, only the stretch from Bent's Fort to Pueblo could be considered part of the Cherokee Trail. Sandy |
|
02 Jul 01 - 11:58 PM (#497188) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: Sandy Paton Okay, Water Trails West didsn't help at all. If you couldn't float a streamboat on it, the writers weren't interested, and above Pueblo the Arkansas ain't navigable. However, R. L. Duffus, in The Santa Fe Trail (1930), has this to offer, for whatever it's worth: "Gold was found in Colorado ten years after it had been discovered in California. There were two routes into Colorado after 1841, one leaving the Oregon Trail at Julesburg, the other following the Mountain Division of the Santa Fe Trail on to Pueblo and beyond. Later, there was a third, the so-called Smoky Hill route, going up the Smoky Hill fork of the Kansas... The discovery of gold in 1858 and the gold rush of 1859 sent many hundreds over the Arkansas route." (italics mine) Heading due west from the Smoky Hill would land you close to Colorado Springs, considerably north of the Arkansas River route to Leadville. Not much help, I'm afraid. Sandy |
|
03 Jul 01 - 01:58 AM (#497251) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: katlaughing Thanks, so much, everyone. This HAS been very interesting. To preserve the integrity of my dad's memory of his granddad's words, I am going to just stick with "going up the Arkansas" as it seems pretty obvious there were several parts of trails which might have been part of that particular journey. I will make some notes in the footnotes, though, from everything you all have posted and as I mentioned before, YA'LL will be credited in my THANK YEWS!**BG** luvya and thanks a bunch, kat |
|
04 Jul 01 - 12:54 AM (#498021) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: Harold W I believ this is the route they took to Leadville. It can be found at the following. http://www.coloradohistory.com/ch-stories/sept/Sept.html I hope this will help. |
|
14 Aug 01 - 04:59 PM (#528043) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: JohnInKansas KAT Just appeared in the Wichita Eagle, Monday, August 13, 2001: "WSU PUTS HUNDREDS OF MAPS ONLINE Wichita State University Libraries' Department of Special Collections is pleased to present over 325 digitized Kansas maps, dating from 1556 to 1900, for interactive viewing. I don't find anything to contradict the earlier conclusion that there was no special name for the trail you were trying to identify, but you might be interested in seeing some of the information that was available to travelers at the time your ancestors made their trip. The maps do cover quite a bit of territory that is far outside what we now know as Kansas. Instructions on the site indicate that working with these maps would be easier with JAVA engaged, although I didn't try it that way. A couple that seemed, on quick-look, to show the area of interest are at: Map of an exploring expedition to the Rocky Mountains in the 1842 and to Oregon & north California in the years 1843-44, Published 1845 Described as "First published map to show the entire area west of the Mississippi as seen by a single party. Includes topographic features. Indicates locations of forts.Indicates Native American inhabitation. Has scale at top of map which shows height of mountains including Rockies, Cascades and Sierra Nevadas. Call Number: 1845-0003" A new map of Texas, Oregon and California with the regions adjoining, compiled from the most recent authorities, 1846 Described as: "Includes topographic features. Indicates the locations of forts. Shows the trails and routes identified as the Great Spanish Trail from P. Angelos (Pueblo de los Angelos, now Los Angeles) to Santa Fe, Lewis and Clarkes (sic) route and Frémont's route. Indicates Native American inhabitation. Designates Oregon Trail as Oregon route on map and Emigrant Route from Missouri to Oregon in table of distances. Identifies Santa Fe Trail as Caravan route to Santa Fe. Call Number: 1846-0002." I don't see a mention of it on the site, but the newspaper article indicates that: "Full color copies of the digital maps can be ordered from the Department of Special Collections by mail, fax, or e-mail. It takes three to six weeks to complete an order. For more information, contact Mike Kelly at Wichita State University Libraries, Department of Special Collections, 1845 N. Fairmount Ave, Wichita, KS 67260-0068; by fax at (316) 978-3048; or by e-mail at michael.kelly@wichita.edu." John |
|
14 Aug 01 - 05:20 PM (#528065) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: katlaughing WOW, John!! Thanks for the links and also for doing so much research already for me! I really appreciate it and will take a look at all of it later, today! Thanks a bunch! kat |
|
14 Aug 01 - 08:42 PM (#528213) Subject: RE: BS: Question for Old West history buffs From: katlaughing John, I forgot. The other side of my family come to Colorado, in a covered wagon, from Kansas in the late 1800s, so these maps will be a lot of fun to look at to see where they were and all. My ggrandfather was a delegate to the consitution committee for Kansas and also served in the Civil War, Union side. Thanks, again!! |
