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03 Jul 01 - 06:02 PM (#497817) Subject: Monto From: GUEST,Bob I would just like to ask a few quick question regarding the exact meaning (assuming there is one) of a few lines of Monto: 1. The reference to the Duke of Gloucester as a dirty old imposter who lost his Mot, 2.The reference to the Dublin Fusiliers getting the childer, and the reference to the Linen hall and the cannonball 3.The reference to the Lord Mayor and Queen Victoria. Basically I am wondering if the verses have a meaning in the same way as the "Carey told on Skin-the-goat" verse does. Bob |
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03 Jul 01 - 06:44 PM (#497853) Subject: Lyr Add: TAKE ME UP TO MONTO (George Hodnett) From: Abby Sale I'm a-gonna give you (nearly) all the answers in the world. Likely more than you wanted. This is an extremely clever & funny song in its origins but the references (as you've discovered) are now so obscure that not even the Dubliners get it right any more. You also need to have the earlier text - there are several Mondegreens that have snuck into most renditions that obscure the obscure more. TAKE ME UP TO MONTO (George Hodnett) Well if you've got a wingo take me up to ringo Chorus: And take her up to Monto, Monto, Monto, You've heard of butcher Foster, the dirty old imposter Chorus: Take me up to Monto, etc. The fairy told him, `Skin the Goat,' O'Donnell put him on the boat Chorus: Be goin' up to Monto, etc. You've seen the Dublin Fusiliers, the dirty old bamboozaliers Chorus: But first go up to Monto, etc. When the Czar of Rooshia, and the King of Prooshia Chorus: So they both went up to Monto, etc. The Queen she came to call on us, she wanted to see all of us Chorus: And he took her up to Monto, Monto, Monto, Monto (short for Montgomery St., near the customs-house) was, up until 1926, I quote some research I found in Dublin: Montgomery Street, near the Custom House, was reputed to be the biggest red-light district of its kind until its closing down occurred in 1925. The song itself, with its child-like, almost nursery-rhyme style delivery, is quite amusing but if the words are examined, it can be seen to be quite a clever and sometimes very sharp view of some recent historical events. The first verse is principally praising alcohol. In the second verse "Butcher Foster - the imposter", is Chief Secretary Forster, more usually known as "Buckshot". He had introduced Coercion Acts in the late 19th Century which allowed people to be arrested and imprisoned on suspicion of being involved in criminal activity. He was not a very popular individual which can be seen in the unfavourable way he is presented in the song. The bowler connects him to the crown and to loyalism, the growler to the English "Bulldog". "Skin the Goat" was the nickname of James Fitzharris, the cabman who drove the murderers of Lord Cavendish and T.H.Burke to and from the Phoenix Park. He was sentenced to penal servitude for conspiracy because he refused to identify his passengers. Patrick O'Donnell, in another song was "a deadly foe to traitors". He had met the informer James Carey, who although he had played a leading in the murders, was freed for turning Queen's Evidence. Of the 27 members of the Invincible society who were arrested, Carey's evidence helped to send six for execution. Carey was then secretly dispatched to South Africa by sea and met O'Donnell "afloat". Then while travelling to Durban from Cape Town on the "Melrose" O'Donnell killed Carey and was sent back to London, tried and sentenced to death. The Dublin Fusiliers come in for abuse also, and are mentioned in connection with the Boer War "oe'r the sea". The new police force, An Garda Siochana, come under suspicion too because their loyalty to the new "Gaelic" state is questioned when they can't play a nationalist melody. Queen Victoria comes in for the greatest abuse of all in the song when she is described unfavourably and is also grossly insulted in a most crude manner by the Lord Mayor of the city, before bringing her up to Monto!
per "THE WAXIES DARGLE," Waxies are candlemakers The in DT version agrees with Luke Kelly's. In verse three, 'Garda Band,' not 'polismen' will be accurate but since they were police, it doesn't matter. Line 4, however, should certainly be 'Vicky' and that's clearly what Kelly sings. DT, we conclude, has misprinted. Other differences may be attributed to Process but the explanation below does certainly support (or follow???) the printed source above. Take Me Up to Monto |
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03 Jul 01 - 07:38 PM (#497882) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Abby Sale Oh! 2.The reference to the Dublin Fusiliers getting the childer, and the reference to the Linen hall and the cannonball I'm not sure on this one at all but I see it as conscripting the young men. The Linen Hall as the main barracks. The "one for every..." is certainly 'don't worry, Vicki, there'll be plenty of soldiers available in the Boer War (where she's gonna send yiz all) - in fact one for every cannon ball.' |
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03 Jul 01 - 08:03 PM (#497902) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Matthew Edwards I have a booklet published by The Mercier Press in 1978 The Story of Monto by John Finegan (about 50 years too late for any sex-tourists!).It tells the story of Dublin's red-light district, as made famous in Ulysses and in other books such as Gogarty's Tumbling in the Hay. Anyway the author quotes an interview with the writer of the ballad Take me up to Monto, George Desmond Hodnett, music critic of the Irish Times. The song was written in 1958 as "taking off one of the stock types of folk and ballad tunes...The tune has now reached the point when it has become the folk song it originally aimed at satirising." Finegan quotes what, with permission from George Hodnett, is the "authorised version". This is similar to the version given by Abby above except that her 4th verse should read; The bloody ould bamboozeleers De Wet'll kill the chiselers Wan,two,three etc It semms that Hodnett deliberately wrote the tune to sound like an early 20th /late 19th century composition, and threw in a few intentionally obscure references as well as some obsolete Dublin slang. Its no wonder some of the current versions don't make much sense! At least Hodnett has a place in the pantheon of those who have composed a "traditional" song, alongside Padraic Colum, Ewan MacColl, and Alex Glasgow. |
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05 Jul 01 - 06:33 PM (#499313) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: MartinRyan Matthew/Abby Very interesting! Never heard the "De Wet" version - though it certainly fits. GDH was, I think, the jazz critic of the Irish Times (at a time when it was neither... as Myles used to say). 1958 sounds a bit late for the composition? What was the revue/show it was produced for? Regards |
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05 Jul 01 - 08:29 PM (#499392) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Matthew Edwards According to Finegan in The story of Monto: Hodnett was composing satirical tunes for revues at the Pike Theatre in Herbert Lane in the 50s. Hodnett said he wrote it in 1958 but that it was not seriously intended for public performance. However Ronnie Drew got to know of the song, included it in a performance by the Dubliners at the Gate in 1966 - and the rest is history! I think Myles said "How could you expect the Irish to play jazz when three of the letters in the word don't even occur in their language." |
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05 Jul 01 - 08:56 PM (#499416) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Abby Sale I'm surprised too that it was written that late. Any idea who De Wet was? |
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05 Jul 01 - 09:16 PM (#499424) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Matthew Edwards I tried a google search which led me a merry chase. There seems to have been a Sir Jacobus De Wet KCMG who was High Commissioner in Pretoria at the time of the Boer War. |
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05 Jul 01 - 09:28 PM (#499434) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Matthew Edwards A better candidate might be the Boer General Christiaan De Wet, who conducted a series of guerilla actions against the British in South Africa after the official end of the Boer War. |
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06 Jul 01 - 09:19 AM (#499715) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Abby Sale Thanks for trying - I actually found him, too, but couldn't imagine what he had to do with Dublin. ---- Well, one could guess that if he killed enough English then the Irish wouldn't have to go there. But it seems far-fetched. Hmmm. "Dulin Fusiliers." Not 'Dublin.' Oi! No references. |
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06 Jul 01 - 11:57 AM (#499850) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Matthew Edwards Dulin Fusiliers should of course have read Dublin Fusiliers. I humbly apologise. Were there Irish regiments in the Boer war? As Monto was close to the Army Barracks, it seems likely the soldiers would have wished to make use of the facilities provided there before being sent overseas by Vicky (Queen Victoria) to South Africa where De Wet and his cannonballs awaited them.I'm not sure whether the Linenhall would have been the place whence troops would parade in ceremony when going abroad on duty. I'm sure GUESTBob now has more information than he bargained for! Abby, do you really, really want references ? I just cobbled together info on De Wet from a google search. I don't know much about military history, but I'm sure I could dig up some stuff on the Boer War and Irish regiments if you give me some time! Nobody has asked what the Furry Glen is; I suppose it is a reference to The Fairy Glen, but I seem to detect a rather obscene pun, but that may just be my filthy mind! |
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06 Jul 01 - 03:03 PM (#500032) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: GUEST,Bob Apologies for not getting involved earlier, I was away from my computer. Many thanks to all of those who have contributed. I am intrigued that it is a modern "forgery", it is certainly well disguised behind its wealth of obscure detail. The version that I have of Luke Kelly omits the Invincibles verse and talks of the Duke of Gloucester losing his mot. Before I saw the version put forward by Andrew (above) regarding the Dublin Fusiliers, I had imagined that it was something to do with Erskine Childers's arms importation or Robert Childers Barton who was a memeber of the Dublin Fusiliers and was arrested for making seditious speeches. I though thatit should read "They wen against the Childer one, two three". Easy to see how the meaning of a song can be distorted eh! The Arch in Stephens Green in Dublin commemorates the 212 Royal Dublin Fusiliers who died in the Boer War. I will return to the song and see if anything else jumps out at me. Bob |
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06 Jul 01 - 03:05 PM (#500033) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: GUEST,Bob Apologies again I meant Matthew not Andrew |
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06 Jul 01 - 03:54 PM (#500070) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Abby Sale Matthew Edwards, :-) dinna fash yersel'. I'm a bit hung up on it but no reason for you to be. Some of this stuff will simply not be clarifed by research or logic. We'd need the author's own statements or else someone intimately familiar with the in-jokes & micro-history of the Troubles. I just ordered your referenced booklet from Inter-Library Loan. The only "Linen Hall" I've found is the Linen Hall Library in Belfast. The Reference desk there agrees that it's unlikely the soldiers would have been marching from a Belfast library and said they'd look into it for me. Wunnerful thing, the 'Net. |
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06 Jul 01 - 05:15 PM (#500129) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: GUEST There is (was?) a linen hall in Dublin at the end of Bolton Street. I quote "In Lurgan Street, near the western end of Bolton Street, is the Linen Hall, founded when Dublin was the centre of that trade and Belfast had not yet arisen on the commercial horizon. It is now the barracks and recruiting depot of the Dublin Fusiliers, whose ultra-modern khaki jackets seem oddly incongruous amid their ancient surroundings. The arched piazzas, where the merchants made their bargains, and the wide openings in the outer walls on the first and second floors, which were evidently intended for the swinging of heavy bales in and out of storage lofts, still remain as marks of its original purpose. The Linen Hall was built in 1726." Check out www.indigo.ie/~kfinlay/ for anything to do with Dublin history. Looking further at the De Wet version there appears to have been a commemorated incident involving a 14 year old bugler with the Dublin Fusiliers who was injured heroically in the Boer war. He was later presented with a silver bugle by Queen Victoria. Unfortunately no reference to De Wet in the incident although it could explain the childer reference. The plot thickens. |
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06 Jul 01 - 06:06 PM (#500174) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Matthew Edwards Thanks to Guest above for clarifying what the Linenhall was. As Abby wisely said earlier this song has become plagued by mondegreens, so that following some of the misleading references will only lead to trouble. I am thinking especially of the childer reference, which may take an unwary reader into the depths of Finnegans Wake via the curious riddle of Erskine Childers. I believe that the Boer cause was widely espoused by Nationalist spokespeople who saw in them fellow fighters against the tyranny of British rule. Thus the loss of a few Fusiliers to De Wet's cannonballs would not have been much regretted in some quarters. Liam O'Flaherty's novel The Informer recounts the role Monto played as a safe haven in The Troubles. Abby, I'm enjoying this thread and I promise not to fash mysel'. If you have no luck with your Inter Library loan please PM me and I'll see what I can do. |
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04 Jun 02 - 02:41 PM (#722917) Subject: Monto fresh verse From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy Now to celebrate her fifty years, the Queen resuscitates careers, of everyone, save Tears for Fears, and Leonard Cohen. The songs went back to '52, When asked if they were finally through Billy Bragg yells 'One more thing to do: Pog mo thoin!' cho: And take her up to Monto, Monto, Monto Take her up to Monto, lan-ge- roo, To you! |
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04 Jun 02 - 03:53 PM (#722981) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Monto fresh verse From: katlaughing Here's a link to some explanation of what Monto refers to for those of us across the pond who might've missed the meaning.*BG* kat |
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04 Jun 02 - 08:35 PM (#723195) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Monto fresh verse From: michaelr Funny you should bring up this song - I just quoted it in the World Cup thread! Cheers, Michael |
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05 Jun 02 - 03:04 PM (#723746) Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Monto fresh verse From: Mrrzy Why not Leonard Cohen? Or is that just for the rhyme? |
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17 Feb 04 - 04:07 AM (#1117535) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: AKS This one seems to have slipped past me when new, but I'll add my wee share now that I got here (thanks to Mahone:-) I was a bit confused reading 'butcher F', when I first saw the printed lyrics of Monto some 20+ y's ago, because I was quite sure that I heard Luke sing Buckshot Foster on the two recordings of it by the Dubliners I had then. The Duke of Gloucester version I got only a bit later (and later yet fourth recording with Ronnie in lead). Luke also sings DeWet'll get the childer/children..., not chiselers. AKS |
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17 Feb 04 - 05:28 AM (#1117576) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: GUEST,Martin Ryan I failed to notice the query on "The Furry Glen" query. It's a quiet wooded area in the Phoenix Park which is where the Garda Depot (police headquarters)is located Regards |
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17 Feb 04 - 05:34 AM (#1117579) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: GUEST,Maritn Ryan Let's try that again: I failed to notice the query on "The Furry Glen". It's a quiet wooded area in Dublin's Phoenix Park - which is where the Garda Depot (police headquarters)is located. Regards |
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17 Feb 04 - 09:33 AM (#1117691) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Dead Horse All above noted. I shall now NOT be singing this one at the Orange Lodge next Tuesday ;-) Thank you. |
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17 Feb 04 - 09:43 AM (#1117697) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Dead Horse You could always try "Avondale"! After all, Parnell was a Protestant and the tune seems to have come from "The Orange Maid of Sligo" ! Regards |
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17 Feb 04 - 11:37 AM (#1117779) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: HuwG Re. the references to "de Wet" and the "Dublin Fusiliers". During the (second) Anglo-Boer war, on Sunday October 29th, 1899, Sir George White commanding the British army in Natal province, decided to mount a three-pronged attack on the Boers who were closing in on his base in Ladysmith. One of the three columns was formed from a battalion of the Dublin Fusiliers and another of the Gloucesters, under a Colonel Carleton. There was also a detachment of Mountain Artillery. Carleton's column was supposed to march at night to occupy a pass through the hills around Ladysmith, known as Nicholson's Nek. Unfortunately, they were late starting because the mules carrying the guns and spare ammunition were restive. Carleton feared that he would be caught in the open at daybreak because of the late start, and decided to occupy a hill called Tchrengula, short of his objective. As they climbed the hill, the mules stampeded and some of the troops fired in panic, thus alerting the Boers to their presence. At dawn, Carleton discovered that he held only one of Tchrengula's two peaks; and Boers under Vice-Commandant Christiaan de Wet were quick to seize the other peak. They were then able to work forward covered by their own rifle fire. By contrast, the British troops were allowed only to fire in volleys, on an officer's command. This clumsy method failed to hurt or discourage the Boers. The Boers pressed forward to surround Carleton's troops and force them into a hopeless position. By midday, British ammunition was running out, and it could be seen that the rest of White's army had been defeated and was retreating into Ladysmith. Carleton ordered a ceasefire, and surrendered. 80 or 90 men had been killed, and 800 were taken prisoner. (There were another 350 casualties among White's other columns.) De Wet went on to become Commandant-General of the Orange Free State's army. He handed out another sharp defeat to British armies, at Sannah's Post near Bloemfontein. Eventually the whole Orange Free State was occupied, but De Wet kept up a guerilla campaign against the occupying British armies. He escaped four times from huge operations intended solely to capture him and his commando. In 1914, he led a pro-German (or at any rate, anti British) rebellion, but few joined him. He was imprisoned for a year, and died in 1922. **** Irish troops seem to have had the worst luck in the British forces that fought the Boer war. An Irish brigade, including another battalion of the Dublin Fusiliers, took part in the Battle of Colenso, under an unusually rigid brigadier, Hart. On the day of battle, he first gave them half an hour of parade ground drill, then marched them in close order into a loop of the River Tugela, surrounded on three sides by Boers. There were 400 casualties. As a GUEST, further up this thread posted, "Looking further at the De Wet version there appears to have been a commemorated incident involving a 14 year old bugler with the Dublin Fusiliers who was injured heroically in the Boer war. He was later presented with a silver bugle by Queen Victoria. Unfortunately no reference to De Wet in the incident although it could explain the childer reference." The battle was Colenso, as I mentioned. The boy was Bugler John Dunne, then aged 14. A canon of Carlisle Cathredal penned the following lines, immortal perhaps because they were worse even than some of McGonagall's: "What shall we give, my little Bugelar For the bugle you lost in the Tugelar ?" "Give me another ! that I may go To the front and return them, blow for blow." (De Wet was not present at Colenso.) **** Thanks, by the way, to Martin Ryan, for clearing up the meaning of "Furry Glen". In the context of the song, I was imagining all sorts of dubious meanings for the phrase. |
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17 Feb 04 - 01:57 PM (#1117862) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Matthew Edwards Thanks, Martin for explaining what the "Furry Glen" is. I'm sure I remember visiting a Fairy Glen in Wicklow, so the Furry Glen in Phoenix Park would be a sort of Dublin joke, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to learn it was a popular resort for all sorts of the dubious activities that HuwG speculated about! |
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17 Feb 04 - 02:00 PM (#1117865) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Did we sort out what a "growler" was, for that matter? Regards |
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17 Feb 04 - 02:27 PM (#1117886) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Big Tim Parnell may have been a Prot. but his politics wouldn't have gone down too well in the Orange Lodge! |
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17 Feb 04 - 02:49 PM (#1117899) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Matthew Edwards I think a growler was a sort of hansom cab [a horse-drawn taxi]. I'm sure I recall reading about Sherlock Holmes and Dr Watson hailing "growlers" in Baker Street. However a quick Google search suggests other meanings: A dictionary of slang "G" and see also Meaning of "rush the growler" |
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17 Feb 04 - 03:19 PM (#1117917) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: GUEST,Martin Ryan Matthew, No, I'm sure the cab was what Hodnett had in mind. Regards |
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17 Feb 04 - 06:59 PM (#1118057) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Micca Re : growler I agree with Martin Ryan, and I am sure I have seen this in Sherlock Holmes stories however the is an alternative modern slang use here, scroll down to word growler |
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19 Feb 04 - 01:15 AM (#1118901) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Cluin Is that like "going the growl" aka "growlin' at the badger"? |
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19 Feb 04 - 10:37 AM (#1119161) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Abby Sale Good additional work there guys. I agree, especially re Furry Glen. Ok. that's it. End of thread. Sing the song, eg, on May 24th for Vickie's birthday (1819). I've got a photo of the Linen Hall, if you want a copy. |
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19 Feb 04 - 11:53 AM (#1119219) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Big Tim The Furry Glen is located at the western end of Phoenix Park: between Upper Glen Road and Lower Glen Road, just south of Glen Pond. It's marked on detailed street plans of Dublin, for example: the "Ordnance Survey 1:20,000 Dublin Street Map". End of Thread? I appreciate all the info given...but... still hoping for more on Hodnett, plus date and context of first publication of the song! |
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19 Feb 04 - 07:48 PM (#1119616) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Abby Sale Wall, Tim, I guess there'll be some more but most of the answers are already given above. Here's something relating to his credibility (in a way): from: http://archives.tcm.ie/businesspost/2003/10/26/story878345399.asp Terry Fagan is a community outreach worker and lifetime resident of the north inner city. With the North Inner City Folklore Project, he has written a fascinating book,Monto:Madams, Murder and Black Coddle. There's not much he doesn't know about the place and he has some hairraising tales from the glory days when Monto (the Montgomery Street area) was the biggest redlight district in Europe. "That's the building where they used to sneak the king in to the prostitutes," Fagan says airily, pointing out a site near the infamous Magdalen Laundries with, ironically, a white cross painted on the bricks.The king in questionwas playboy Edward VII, so it seems there's more truth in the song by George Hodnett than one might think. Monto was largely closed down in 1925, after the spectacular efforts of the Legion of Mary, and Montgomery Street was renamed Foley Street.Over the years the district's stories have become ever more tragic - stories of men left without work on the docks as progress removed the need for them, of teenage kids dying from heroin. |
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19 Feb 04 - 09:45 PM (#1119711) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Abby Sale On the other hand, while most of what I've posted is only as good as "things that are posted on the Web," I can say definitively that there was no Neill or O'Neill who was Lord Mayor of Dublin in any era appropriate to the song. But what does that imply? |
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20 Feb 04 - 06:17 PM (#1120073) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: MartinRyan ..only that the usual phrase is "Mister me Lord Mayor", sez she,"Is that all ye..." Regards |
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21 Feb 04 - 12:01 PM (#1120471) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: GUEST According to the lyrics in the link given by kat, it should be "Carey told on Skin-the-goat", not "the fairy" as in Abby's lyrics, yes? And does "langeroo" have a meaning? Cheers, Michael |
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21 Feb 04 - 12:54 PM (#1120494) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Abby Sale I haven't seen "Carey" but it makes much more sense since he was one of the involved players. |
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22 Feb 04 - 05:43 PM (#1121333) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: MartinRyan "langers" is Dublin slang for drunk. Langeroo MAY refer to that. Regards |
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30 Jun 04 - 05:11 AM (#1216842) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Big Tim Waxies = cobblers, bootmakers, as well as candlemakers? |
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30 Jun 04 - 09:35 AM (#1216958) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Big Tim What about "wing-o" and "ring-o"? Forgive me if these have already been dealt with, I couldn't see them! "Wing" was Dublin slang for a penny, because the coin had a hen on one side of it. From Joyce's "Finnegan's Wake" - "two bar [shillings] and a wing". (Source: Brendan Share's "Slanguage: a dictionary of Irish slang"). "Ring-o" - could it be short for "Ringsend"? This is where the waxies went for their day out (in addition to Bray). "Growler" defined in Brewer's Dictionary of Phrase and Fable, "old four wheel, four seater horse drawn cabs were called growlers from the surly attitude of their drivers". Proper name was "clarence"- from the Duke of Clarence, later King William the 4th. (Webster's Dictionary). |
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30 Jun 04 - 09:43 AM (#1216963) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Big Tim Sorry, "Slanguage" is by Bernard, not Brendan, Share. He has also written "Naming Names: Who, What, Where in Ireland" - both are excellent books. |
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30 Jun 04 - 10:56 AM (#1217041) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: MartinRyan BigTim You're right on wing & ring! Regards p.s. ... growler. |
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30 Jun 04 - 01:33 PM (#1217141) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: John MacKenzie A bar was a pound note when I was a children folks. Giok |
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30 Jun 04 - 01:36 PM (#1217144) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: John MacKenzie and; half a bar was a 10/- [ten shillings for those not familiar with real or pre decimal money] note. Giok |
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30 Jun 04 - 03:31 PM (#1217226) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Herga Kitty And, re Growler - "My proper name is Clarence" is another song altogether... (although I remember it being sung by Tom Brown, whom Roy Harris aka Burl has recalled on the Boer War song thread). I think it might have been Roy Harris that I first heard singing Monto, though? Kitty |
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30 Jun 04 - 05:13 PM (#1217295) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: John MacKenzie My name is Clarence, I live in Leicester Sqaure I wear pink pyjamas. and a rosebud in my hair. To the tune of the Eton boating Song. Giok |
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30 Jun 04 - 09:02 PM (#1217393) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Abby Sale Good, BigTim. No, it hadn't been covered. With this info, (and more from elsewhere not included above) I think I can fairly well provide an organized, annotated version. I've put together a Word file with both brief explanations as footnotes and fuller ones at the end. I even have an etching of the Linen Hall. Ask me if you want it. But give me a few days to get the other computer back from the vet. Abby |
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01 Jul 04 - 03:35 AM (#1217519) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto From: Big Tim "Waxy" as defined in "Slanguage" (see above): "Use of wax-end for stitching (Dub.) - Cobbler". [quote example of use] "Leather isn't the same now as it was years ago or are the waxies using cardboard to make boots and shoes?" "Waxies Dargle - [nickname c.1890-] Annual gathering at Irishtown Green, near Ringsend." From "Irish Times" 25 March 1936 - "At that time (late 19th C) the Dargle in Wicklow [Bray] was more popular as a holiday resort than it is at present and "Dargle" has passed into popular speech as synonymous with "holiday resort". In Dublin slang of the period a cobbler was known as a "waxy". Not being able to get as far away from town on their days off as the better class Dubliners...they had to be content with a run to Irishtown [beside Ringsend] and Merrion Sands [east Dublin]". Brendan Behan, 1981 ("After the Wake") "Why can't you write about something natural? Like the time we all fell into the water at the Waxie's Dargle"!!!!!!!! |
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10 May 06 - 03:49 PM (#1737405) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: GUEST,C. There's a bar in Chicago called Poag Mahone's |
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11 May 06 - 02:55 AM (#1737800) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: Big Tim Here's some more on Skin the Goat, obtained from the National Graves Association in Dublin. "Skin the Goat" was the nickname of James Fitzharris (1833-1910), driver of the "growler" used by the killers. Born in Camolin, Co. Wexford, Fitzharris, lived in Lime Street. Being a cab driver, he had access to the comings and goings of Dublin Castle and supplied the assassins with vital information. His nickname is probably derived from an old wake custom, feannadh an phocháin, "skinning the goat": an ancient country ritual in which a piece of skin from a corpse was used as a love charm. In more sophisticated Dublin, the term had come to mean a simple-minded person and it was said of Fitzharris that no one dared call him "Skin the Goat" to his face; though "Skin" was, apparently, quite acceptable! He certainly "stood up for his principles". Despite being offered £10,000, he refused to turn informer. At his first trial, for murder, he was acquitted, but at a second trial was found guilty of conspiracy and sentenced to penal servitude for life. He was released from Maryborough (now Portlaoise) Prison on 23 August 1899. He is buried in a substantial grave in Glasnevin. In 1938, the National Graves Association erected a memorial and in 1968 a bronze plaque was added, giving the names of his five executed co-conspirators. He too is commemorated in song, "James Fitzharris, the Invincible", I never told what I saw there, They might as well ask my old grey mare, Ten thousand pounds would be my fare, If I'd give information. |
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11 May 06 - 02:53 PM (#1738243) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: Declan George D Hodnett (aka GDH) regularly attended a lot of Folk and traditional gigs that I attended in the late 70s and early 80s and occasionally reviewed them for the Irish Times, although he was better known as a Jazz columnist for that paper as has been mentioned above. To my mind he seemed to be quite an old man at that time, but given that I was in my late teens/early twenties he may not have been that old! I seem to remember his reviews were generally not very favourable, including some gigs that I really enjoyed. I think he was generally more of a jazzer than a folkie. If I'd known he'd written Monto (an old favourite of mine) I'd have made a point of asking him about it. But I hadn't got much of a clue in those days. (not much has changed there then)! |
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11 May 06 - 03:41 PM (#1738301) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: Declan Garda band would be an anacronism in relation to the Tsar of Roosha who was executed in 1917 (allegedly). The Garda Siochana was formed in the 1920s after the creation of the Irish state. Hodnett would be bound to have known this, but the inclusion of both may well have been deliberate. I've often heard it sung as the Polis band, which could refer to the Dublin Metropolitan Police who I think also had their headquarters in the Phoenix Park. Martin correctly points out that langers is Dublin slang for drunk, but your langer is also slang for the male appendage. I'll leave it up to you to decide which is intended. |
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12 May 06 - 03:01 AM (#1738736) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: Big Tim Information on Hodnett was difficult to trace but eventually I found some. Ronnie Drew told me that he thought that the origins of "Monto" lay in Hodnett's antipathy towards a particular species of "folkie": the overly serious, dry-as-dust kind, who interminably analyze and dissect "precious" traditional songs [like me!]; rather than just singing and enjoying them. Monto was then, partly, Hodnett's "two fingers" to that sort of approach. Consequently, he is said to have been reluctant to discuss the song, not wanting to spoil its provenance, preferring to let it make its own way in the world. He would probably have been quite pleased to see it described as "traditional" or "anon", as it often is. If you asked him about it Declan, he'd probably have told you to piss off! George Desmond Hodnett (1918-90) was a native Dubliner, his father coming from a prominent Cork legal family and his mother, Lauré Faschnacht, hailing from Murten, a small town west of Bern in Switzerland. He studied law at Trinity College, or rather, he was supposed to. A born nonconformist who abhorred bourgeois convention, Hodnett soon realised that he had chosen the wrong profession and either left university, or was "sent down", before graduating. Gradually, he found his true milieu: the theatrical and musical life of the city and became a regular among the bohemian literati centred on the Catacombs in Fitzwilliam Place. Eventually he became a fixture at the Pike Theatre, where he was resident pianist. He enjoyed a refreshment with Brendan Behan in both Dublin and London, wrote numerous songs, mostly satirical, with titles such as "I Can't Hug My baby, But Boy Can That Credit Squeeze": a Rock n Roll spoof, and "Hogsville, Idaho"; a send-up of Oklahoma. "Hoddy", as he was affectionately known, was a real Dublin "character": an affable, amiable "eccentric"; but always his own man. Philip Chevron told me that he (GDE!)spent his final years living in a small caravan George Hodnett was also a stout defender of Dublin's Georgian architectural heritage and was injured, hospitalized and arrested during protests against the property developer's bulldozers in Hume Street in 1970. |
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12 May 06 - 02:00 PM (#1739187) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: Big Tim Of Course that should be GDH. |
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30 Jun 06 - 03:09 PM (#1772945) Subject: Lyr Add: MONTO (George Hodnet) From: GUEST (Guest Abby)
Very good additional notes, Big Tim. I somehow missed them in May. |
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27 Sep 07 - 06:37 AM (#2158373) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: GUEST,Tony Patriarche I recently did an arrangement of "Monto" for 3-part men's chorus which I had hoped would be performed by a choir touring Newfoundland & the Maritimes this past summer. Unfortunately, lack of rehearsal time led to its fall to the cutting room floor. If anyone is interested in a copy of the sheet music, please email me - I would love just to know that it has been performed at least once somewhere, anywhere, Carnegie Hall, Shea Stadium, your favourite local pub.... I mention it here also to give due credit to Bill Kennedy, whose "Fresh Verse" (see 04 Jun 02 in the thread) I "borrowed" (without permission - my apologies, Bill, but thanks for putting in Leonard Cohen!) & revised for my version to add more Canadian Content (I know, I know, not all the bands I named are Canadian, but it had to scan & rhyme. Besides, the Irish Rovers, at least part of them, have retired to my home town, Victoria BC).: Now ya know the Irish Rovers, Figgy Duff, the Clumsy Lovers, Great Big Sea, U2, the Drovers, And Leonard Cohen. The songs go back to fifty-two, When asked if now they're surely through, Ashley yells: "There's more to do, "Pog ma thoin!". Feel free to email me at tony@patriarche.net if you are interested in the arrangement. |
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18 Sep 10 - 10:05 AM (#2989203) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: GUEST,Gerald Mangan The papal visit to the UK this week reminds me of a last verse I wrote for 'Monto' in 1979, when the previous Pope was visiting Ireland:
From Poland came to give us hope, And wash our ears with holy soap And water too. He landed in a chopper, And he nearly came a cropper When he dropped the soap and water In the Irish stew Which they gave him up in Monto, Monto..."etc |
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25 Feb 11 - 11:03 PM (#3102952) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: GUEST,McAlpine didn't I always think 'The Furry Glen' was a euphemism for a lady's you-know-what. We named the band after it. Just pub-sessioners mind, but a good laugh. |
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26 Feb 11 - 02:15 AM (#3102987) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: michaelr This thread deserves recognition as a Mudcat Classic. One of the best. |
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07 May 11 - 07:55 AM (#3149718) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: MartinRyan Frank McNally in his "Irishman's Diary" column in this morning's Irish Times has an interesting account of the genesis of this song. Click here I've copied it below for permanency. Since Frank has often used Mudcat material in his column, he'll hardly mind! Regards ---------------------------------------------- It's a tribute to the skill of a former Irish Times jazz critic that the ballad Monto , made famous by The Dubliners among others, is widely assumed to be about twice as old as it actually is. The imminent British royal visit may, ironically, encourage the song's revival. Because the most modern of the historical events mentioned in it was another such visit: Queen Victoria's in 1900. Not that its lyrics treat the subject with due decorum, viz: "The Queen she came to call on us, she wanted to see all of us/I'm glad she didn't fall on us, she's eighteen stone". Other characters featured in its verses include "Buckshot" Forster, a chief secretary of Ireland during the 1880s; James "Skin the Goat" Fitzharris, who drove a cab used in the Phoenix Park murders; and Patrick O'Donnell, who in 1883 carried out the revenge assassination of James Carey, a party to the aforementioned murders, before saving his neck (temporarily) by turning queen's evidence. Given all this and the Victorian-era slang, it might be – and often is – mistakenly concluded that the ballad dates from about 1901. In fact, it was written in 1958 as part of a song cycle by musician and critic, George Hodnett. Each song was meant to lampoon one of the stock folk or ballad forms. Thus, Monto purported to have been composed around the turn of the century and, as Hodnett explained, to have been shamelessly tailored for a certain audience. "The verses were constructed to include the pre-possessions that would appeal to the Dublin proletarian taste," he said. "Hence the ingredients of hurler-on-the-fence; support for persons regarded as patriots (Invincibles verse); anti-police attitudes ('the buggers in the depot'); anti-'toff' attitudes (Buckshot Forster); anti-Englishness (same); local allusions; and, of course, smut. This construction probably accounts for the song's success, if that is the word." In some respects, he included too much period detail, as in the verse: "See the Dublin Fusiliers, the dirty ould bamboozeliers/De Wet'll kill the childer, one two three." Few people now – or even in 1958 – know much about De Wet, one of the British army's more formidable enemies during the Boer War, in which the Fusiliers fought. So latter-day singers tend to provide their own phonetic versions, like Frank Harte's: "They went and killed the childer, one two three." Another example is the second – and even ruder – half of the verse about Queen Victoria: "Mister Neill Lord Mayor says she, is this all you got to show to me?/Why no ma'am there's some more to see – Pog mo thon!" This is an anachronism, in fact, because the "Neill" referred to – Lawrence Neill, later O'Neill – did not become mayor until 1917. In any case, most singers now follow the lead of Luke Kelly, who rendered the line "Mister me Lord Mayor says she". Which is probably better than the original anyway. I OWE THIS and most of my knowledge about the song to Dubliner Johnny Byrne, who studied the subject for a history project in NUI Maynooth and who shares his erudition on such themes during his day job as a tour-guide (byrnejohnny@gmail.com). His project included researching the place as well as the song. And Johnny also reminds me that long before its descent into infamy, Monto had been an area of aristocratic pretensions: as witnessed by such addresses as Gloucester Street (now Sean McDermott Street), its one-time northern boundary, which was named for a duke and son of King George III. The Act of Union hastened the neighbourhood's decline. Then a combination of economic hardship and the militarisation of Dublin helped feed the growth of a sex industry, to which "Monto" became central. The area features famously in Ulysses , being the scene where, in a misunderstanding over a woman, Stephen Dedalus is assaulted by an English squaddie. But that it had an international reputation even before Joyce is clear from the 1903 edition of the Encyclopaedia Britannica , which on the subject of prostitution, noted: "Dublin furnishes an exception to the usual practice in the United Kingdom. In that city police permit open 'houses' confined to one area, but carried on more publicly than even in the south of Europe or Algeria." The notoriety lasted another 20 years or so. Then Frank Duff and his fellow legionnaires of Mary succeeded in closing the trade down. Monto was gone by 1925 and was already a fading memory when the song immortalised it. Hodnett's own life was worthy of a song, at least. The son of an army colonel, he first studied law but was too much in love with music to persist. When not reviewing jazz, he played it: on piano, trumpet, and zither. And he was a fully paid-up Bohemian. Often lacking a fixed abode, he was well known for spending nights in his various places of employment: sleeping rolled up in curtains at the Pike Theatre, or on the floor of The Irish Times . As for his most famous composition, like many offspring, it has long since taken on a life its parent could not have foreseen, at least in the maternity ward. The process was already happening in Hodnett's own lifetime (which ended in 1990). Monto had now reached the point, he once told an interviewer, "when it has become the folk song it originally aimed at satirising". -------------------------------------------------------------------- |
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08 May 11 - 12:50 AM (#3150184) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: MartinRyan Refresh |
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08 May 11 - 10:08 AM (#3150328) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: GUEST,Desi c I think others have provided all the answers, I can only confirm 'Waxies' as in the song Waxies Dargle, resers to workers in Dublin's Candle making industry which was a big part of industrial Dublin, and 'childer' from my childhood growing up in Kilkenny, is just another w ay of saying children i.e often my Mother would ask me "where's all the other childer you were with?" alternatively 'childern' |
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05 Sep 11 - 07:43 PM (#3218745) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: Fergie Was hoping to include George Hodnett's grave in the itinery for the Frank Harte Festival Singing Tour of Glasnevin Cemetery on Sunday 24th Sept. but alas I have discovered that he was cremated. So we'll just have to visit Auld Skin the Goat's grave instead. Fergus |
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02 Aug 13 - 03:05 AM (#3544524) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: GUEST,Jen Pacific Abby, do you still have your annotated Word version summing up the collective erudition of this thread? Would love to have a copy. |
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26 Jan 14 - 06:09 PM (#3595733) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy I would only add that in one version Ronnie Drew stops the song to remark that they had to leave the most obscene part out, which is substituted by the two foot stomps, or hand clamps after langeroo before 'to you' . I always thought it must be a two-syllable profanity, but the authorized version above mentions the audience could supply 'Balls to you' which makes sense in that 'langer' is also slang for the male member, so "Langeroo. Balls to you" is good, unless one of yez can think of a suitable two-syllable profanity that would be appropriate. |
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26 Jan 14 - 06:21 PM (#3595735) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy of course! Langeroo, Bollocks to you! |
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23 Feb 14 - 04:57 AM (#3603997) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: GUEST,jim bainbridge Bill- nothing to do with this thread but the last post on the Grehan Sisters Recordings thread contains a request to you! |
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23 Feb 14 - 07:43 AM (#3604024) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: Richard Mellish According to Abby's 03 Jul 01 - 06:44 PM posting, "Skin-the-Goat" was the cab driver who refused to testify, and the man who was killed in revenge for turning Queen's Evidence was James Carey. If that is correct, the lines "Oh .. did ya hear o' Skin-the-Goat? O'Donnell got him in the boat" embody a mistake. Also perhaps just worth a mention: that the Linen Hall is also mentioned in the song Get Me Down Me Petticoat. |
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27 Jan 20 - 09:51 AM (#4030524) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: GUEST I once saw Hodnett drinking in the snug behind the front windows of O'Donoghues of Merrion Row. Tom Munnelly knew him well and once told me that Hoddy used to sit in the snug and wait for the concert-goers to arrive in, when he would quiz them about the gig they had just attended, and write up his review for the Irish Times from their answers. Perhaps this was a regular practice, or Hoddy did it once and Tom was embellishing the story. We'll never know now. |
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29 Jan 20 - 01:00 AM (#4030916) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: michaelr Brilliant thread! |
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13 Apr 22 - 11:30 PM (#4139017) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: GUEST,Andrew C I agree michaelr - it’s answered all my questions and ones I didn’t even know I had. Plus a nice little trip back to the early aughts. |
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14 Apr 22 - 12:19 AM (#4139019) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: Mrrzy I am left still wondering, why not Leonard Cohen? |
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14 Apr 22 - 02:52 AM (#4139028) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: GUEST,Martin Ryan One of the great threads, alright. Regards |
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01 Oct 23 - 05:16 PM (#4182839) Subject: RE: Origins: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: Thompson Incidentally "bowler" (rhyming with "growler") is a Dublin word for a dog. |
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01 Oct 23 - 05:16 PM (#4187174) Subject: RE: Origins: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: Thompson Incidentally "bowler" (rhyming with "growler") is a Dublin word for a dog. |
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01 Oct 23 - 05:40 PM (#4182842) Subject: RE: Origins: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: GUEST,Peter Laban RTE's Aistear an Amhráin, episode 4 Went thoroughly into the detail of the song. |
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01 Oct 23 - 05:40 PM (#4187173) Subject: RE: Origins: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: GUEST,Peter Laban RTE's Aistear an Amhráin, episode 4 Went thoroughly into the detail of the song. |
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10 Dec 23 - 05:56 PM (#4193350) Subject: RE: Origins: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: Felipa https://www.rte.ie/player/series/aistear-an-amhr%C3%A1in/10001572-00-0000 The song Take Me Up to Monto and the history of the former red light district of Monto are discussed in episode 4 of an Irish tv series "Aistear an Amhráin". The programmes are narrated in Irish, with interviews in Irish and in English, and English language subtitles. |
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11 Dec 23 - 08:11 AM (#4193371) Subject: RE: Origins: Monto / Take me up to Monto From: GUEST Not to fuss but look two posts back .. |