Celtic Music

31 Dec 97 - 03:35 PM (#18519)
Subject: Celtic Music
From: Dan Mulligan

Use this thread to share links to celtic music (MIDI, files, GIFs, Etc.) Also use this thread to post files that you are looking for.

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01 Jan 98 - 01:52 AM (#18542)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: [e-mail]

I'm looking for information on Irish allegorical songs, particularly sources and history for Dark Rosaleen or Roisin Dubh. Any ideas? Writing about this for Master's thesis. Thanks.

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01 Jan 98 - 01:56 PM (#18553)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Daniel Curzon

Hello, I have put music to the traditional Irish blessing that begins "May the road rise up to meet you. May the wind be always at your back." I am just curious if anyone else has ever done this. Thanks for any information.

Daniel Curzon [e-mail]

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01 Jan 98 - 02:05 PM (#18554)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Barry

Yup someone in New Hampshire has printed it on the back of T-shirts with musical notation with a copyright stamp. Barry

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01 Jan 98 - 03:55 PM (#18559)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Joe Offer

Noel Paul Stookey of Peter, Paul & Mary did a very nice rendition of the "Irish Blessing" on his 1977 album, "Real to Reel." There has been talk of reissuing some of the solo stuff PP&M did in the 1970's, but nothing has come of it but talk so far.
-Joe Offer-

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02 Jan 98 - 12:37 AM (#18573)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Tim Jaques [e-mail]

A lot of times you see that list Irish blessings without the best line, the last "And may you be in heaven a half an hour before the Devil knows you're dead."

Are all the blessings recited actually all Irish blessings?

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02 Jan 98 - 02:41 PM (#18591)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Joe Offer

Good question, Tim. A lot of what we think of as "Irish" music came from Tin Pan Alley - why not the blessing, too? I've never actually heard a real Irish person speak of the Irish Blessing. Alison, you got an answer to that one?
-Joe Offer-

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02 Jan 98 - 07:52 PM (#18601)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Timothy Jaques [e-mail]

Never have I heard an Irish person utter this blessing. Mind you, I've never had an Irish person bless me:)

The Tin Pan Alley songs are easy to identify, and are usually only sung by bad bar bands anyway, or at least bar bands that want to keep the drunks from shouting out requests. Some of them are also old music hall songs -- I've always suspected Patrick Fagan to be such and would be interested if someone would confirm my opinion.

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02 Jan 98 - 09:51 PM (#18612)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Cathy

To Tim:

My Grandma is Irish, and she's said the Irish blessing to me many times. Can't help ya on the Patrick Fagan bit.

To Kim:

Wish I could help you on the info you need for your thesis. But I don't know anything about Irish allegorical songs.

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04 Jan 98 - 10:30 PM (#18717)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Tim Jaques [e-mail]

Kim, to search out the allegorical songs you might consider joining the Irish Trad music list, or the Ballad list, at least long enough to see if anyone can help you. I don't have the subscription info but as with all of these e-mail lists you can get the information by doing a Liszt search. I suspect a posting in rec.music.celtic might get you some responses.

You tend to find knowledgable people on the e-mail lists, because they are the only ones who take the subject seriously enough to tolerate the volume of e-mail received.

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04 Jan 98 - 10:50 PM (#18718)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: alison

Hi

Yes some of us do say the Irish Blessing, (my mother in law sent me it as an embroidery to remind me of home.) It's one of those things that tends to get printed on tea towels etc to keep the tourists happy, like recipes for soda or potato bread. We have book loads of this sort of stuff and sayings of "Irish wisdom" (insert own jokes here.....), eg. you can't pluck a frog!

And then there's always the Irish letter.... you know the one that starts... "I'm writing this slowly because I know you can't read very fast....."

Slainte

Alison

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05 Jan 98 - 11:51 AM (#18732)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Jaxon

My favorite last line of The Irish Blessing is "may all that hate you twist their ankles so you know them when they're coming". Jack Murray

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05 Jan 98 - 08:43 PM (#18761)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: chet w

Check out Tom Lehrer's "The Irish Ballad". Good fun.

Chet W.

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11 Jan 98 - 12:15 PM (#19038)
Subject: Kimraff
From: Dan Mulligan

Wow....You never know just what you are going to start with one of theses things do you? Who would have guessed that this thread would include a discusion of the origin of the "Irish Blessing" rounded out with a mention of Tom Lehrer's "Irish Ballad." It sure made for entertaining reading though.... :-)

I would really like to help out Kimraff though if possible... I have thus far found nothing for "Dark Rosaleen." I am not quite sure what you are looking for anyway. Do you have music for it?

Here is a link for the words to the poem "Roisin Dubh."

http://expo.nua.ie/wordsmith/MaighreadMedbh/Hunger/CryEasy/RoisinDubh.html

It is translated in both english and gaelic there.

There is also a version of a tune called "the black rose bud"(Roisin Dubh)On Derek Bell's album "Ancient Music For The Irish Harp." Beautifull tune.

Do you have music for it? I would be interested in it if you do.

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11 Jan 98 - 12:29 PM (#19040)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Alice

Dan, I sent email to Kimraff regarding allegorical songs and Roisin Dubh. If you want the music, I can scan and attach it to email. Send me your email address (you can leave a message for me on my Mucat personal page). Alice in Montana

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11 Jan 98 - 04:18 PM (#19055)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

If you have questions about Irish tunes, you can post them to the IRTRAD-L server, and if its Scots go to SCOTS-L. Once subscribed to the list, though, you get all messages in your e-mail inbox, and IRTRAD-L can run to 60 per day.

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11 Jan 98 - 05:48 PM (#19061)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Sandy Cameron

I heard a Celtic song yeaterday at a memorial service. It was one of the most beatiful I have heard both lyrcically and musically. The only line I can recall is in the chorus and is..."we'll stand tall like all red-coated laddies do". If anyone knows it I would sure love to get the rest of the lyrics and the music. [e-mail]

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11 Jan 98 - 09:36 PM (#19080)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Barry

Sandy, if you're searching for a song/words start a thread & you'll probably get much better results. Barry

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01 Feb 98 - 12:01 AM (#20343)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Jack Hickman

The tune "Roisin Dubh" which means "Dark Rosaleen" is an allegorical name for Ireland, stemming to the days of the Penal laws when use of the name Ireland was forbidden. Poets employed numerous poetic names, such as Caitlin ni Houlihan, Roisin Dubh and others. Ireland was often depicted in poems as an old woman, as in "Shan Van Voght", the poor old woman.

Roisin Dubh was composed by Sean O'Riada back in the 1950's as the theme music for a movie called "Mise Eire - I am Ireland." I have not seen the movie, but would be interested in doing so, has anyone else any information regarding it?

Jack Hickman

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01 Feb 98 - 07:45 AM (#20373)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Tormid

Posted to separate thread, "Welsh songs" before I saw this one. Anyhoo, looking for (English trans.) lyrics to "The Maid from the Parish of Penderyn," and "Calon Lan" (Welsh approximate, sorry, for "Pure Heart").

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01 Feb 98 - 11:37 AM (#20381)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

There are both major and minor mode tunes entitled "Roisin Dub" in the Stanford-Petrie collection, #1240 and #1241. These were obtained by Petrie no later than 1866.

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01 Feb 98 - 05:50 PM (#20413)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Frank Phillips

Didn't the late Jimmy Ferguson have a variant of the blessing that said: "May the wind at your back never be your own."

Frank

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01 Feb 98 - 05:57 PM (#20414)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: David

say, i ahve been looking for some music of a certain type. it can be best described (by me) as atmospheric/beat/irish music. that is to say... what something perhaps modern like ENIGMA would sound like if you discarded the chanting and replaced it with Irish reels set to the beat, and sometimes vocals... sung usually in Gaelic. in particular i am looking for certain artists' names, albums, etc. Slán!

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03 Feb 98 - 04:25 PM (#20546)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From:

May the road rise with you is an Irish blessing all right: Go n-éiridh an bóthair leat.

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03 Feb 98 - 05:10 PM (#20551)
Subject: About Roisin Dubh
From: Louis Killen

In a little book entitled Irish Minstrelsy pulished by the Walter Scott Publishing Co, Newcastle upon Tyne, UK, in 1904 (3rd Edition)that belonged to my father there is a translation from the Irish by Thomas Furlong. The note with the song says: This song was composed in the reign of Queen Elizabeth, to celebrate the Irish hero Hugh Ruadh O'Donnel, of Tyrconnell. By Roisin Dubh, supposed to be a beloved female, is meant Ireland. Thomas Furlong - poet and politician. Born at Scarawalsh, County Wexford,1794; died July 25,1827. Was a close friend of O'connell's and an ardent repealer, but is now remembered as translator of ancient Irishj poems.

I hope this helps.

Louis Killen

[e-mail] [e-mail]

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03 Feb 98 - 07:50 PM (#20564)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

We may need some ABC's or theme codes of tunes here to sort things out. Joyce, 'Old Irish Folk Music and Songs', #57 give "Margaret Roche" tune with 1st verse in Gaelic and in English. He says that Bunting (3rd coll'n, 1840) called the tune "Roisin Dubh" (in table of contents, on music page it's "Black Rose Bud".)

Joyce points out "Roisin Dubh" is in a major mode in Stanford-Petrie, and in his own 'Irish Music and Song' in the proper minor mode. I do not have the earlier Joyce book, so I'm stuck. I could do ABC's or theme codes of the two "Roisin Dubh's" in Stanford-Petrie so we could figure out which tune he meant there. Anyone with any ideas? How about 1st lines of songs (English and/or Gaelic)? Titles are such poor identifiers.

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03 Feb 98 - 08:11 PM (#20567)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

There's a lot on "Roisin Dubh" in A Kuntz' 'The Fiddler's Companion' tune index at the Ceolas site at Stanford celtic.stanford.edu/ceolas. (search on Roisin) They have all and more than Louis Killen gave above. But it looks rather undigested to me. Joyce's correction to Bunting is made in the tune noted for Margaret Roche, but not made on the entries from Bunting. They even get "The Blackbird" tune connected to some "Roisin Dubh's", but don't seem to know that it was the Scots "Bonny Lass of Aberdeen" earlier.

Caution: This site seems to take some information from Grattan-Flood. No wise Irish scholar would touch it, too many outright lies.

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03 Feb 98 - 10:38 PM (#20575)
Subject: Tune Add: ROISIN DUBH
From: Bruce O.

Take your pick. Can we have some words?

X:1
T:Roisin dub
N:Stanford-Petrie, #1240
L:1/4
M:3/4
K:G lydian
d/e/|ffe/d/|c/A/ d/c/A/G/|AA(B/G/)|AAc/d/|ee/f/ g/e/|\
e/d/ e/c/ A/F/|GG(A/F/)|GGA/G/|FD/E/F/G/|Ad/e/ f/e/|\
dc/A/G/F/|GGA/G/|FD/E/F/G/|Adf/e/|dc/A/G/F/|GG|]

X:2
T:Roisin dub
N:Stanford-Petrie, #1240
L:1/4
M:3/4
K:Em
B/A/G/|E3/2D/ G/D/|E3/2D/E/G/|c3/2c/B/A/|B3/2E/ F/4G/4
A/4B/4|cd/c/ B/A/|Bc/B/ A/G/|A3/2B/ A3/4G/4|A3/2||E/ A/B/|ccd/c/|
BB/A/ G/E/|EE/D/ E/F/|G3/2 B/e/d/|cc/B/ A/^G/|AB/A/ G/E/|\
D3/2D/E/F/|E3/2|]

X:3
T:Roisin Dub (Dark Rosaleen)
M:Roche Collection, I, #65
L:1/8
M:3/4
K:D dorian
(D/E/G/A/B/)|(c2A2) {e/}(fe)|(dc A)(G ED)|(DE) {E/}(FE DC)
|D4 (A/B/c/d/e/)|(fg) {e/}(fe) (d/e/d/c/d/)|\
ed {e/}(f/e/d/c/) (Ac)| (d>e) (f/d/e/)(c/ d/c/A/G/c/)|A4|\
(D/E/F/G/A/B/c/d/e/)|(f>g) {e/}(fe) (d/4e/4d/4c/4d3/4e/4)|\
f>d e>d (d/c/A/G/|A/c/d/c/A/G/) (E>D) (D2|d4) (d/e/G/A/B/)|\
c2A2{e/}(f>e)|(dc A)(G ED)|(DF){f/}(E>D) (3CDE |D4|]

X:4
T:The Little Black Rose (An Roisin Dub) 1st setting
N:O'Neill's Music of Ireland #70
L:1/4
M:3/4
K:Cm
G/2=A/2|(BG)e3/4c/4|(d3/4c/4) (B/G/) (F/D/)|DCC|\
C2(c/d/)|eed/c/|e(d/c/) (B/G/)|c3/2 B/ G/F/|\
G2(c/d/)|e(e/f/) (d/c/)|e(d/c/) (B/G/)|c3/2 B/ G/F/|\
D2(G/=A/)|B c3/d/ e/c/|d3/c/ B/G/ F/D/|C2C|C2|]

X:5
T:The Little Black Rose (An Roisin Dub) 2nd setting
N:O'Neill's Music of Ireland #71
L:1/4
M:3/4
K:Cm
c3/4B/4|GG{A/}G/^F/|GG (5 G/4A/4=B/4c/4d/4|ed{d/}c/=B/|\
c2c/d/|egf3/4d/4|c3/4B/4 G/A/ =B/c/|~dcc3/4d/4|d2||c/d/|\
edg3/4f/4|fdc3/4B/4|GFG/A/|.B2(G/B/)|ced/c/|\
B3/2c/ B3/4G/4|FEC3/4=B,/4|C2|]

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04 Feb 98 - 01:10 AM (#20587)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: leprechaun

Perhaps more recently composed, but nevertheless allegorical is the song, Four Green Fields, by Tommy Makem. Also, isn't Mo Ghile Mear allegorical? The Irish are masters of allegory, and I bet there are hundreds of Irish songs that fit the bill. I'd be interested in seeing Kimraff's final product.

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04 Feb 98 - 09:10 AM (#20605)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Carol Duffy

I am looking for the music to a tune called Butterfly. The only version I have is by Kathryn Devalier played on the Irish harp. I play the flute. Can anyone help me?

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04 Feb 98 - 10:38 AM (#20612)
Subject: Tune Add: THE BUTTERFLY
From: Jon W.

Here's ABC for The Butterfly, copied from Henrik Norbert's ABC Page :

X:1
T:Butterfly, The
R:slip jig
C:Tommy Potts
D:Bothy Band: 1975.
Z:id:hn-slipjig-3
M:9/8
K:Edor
B2E G2E F3|B2E G2E FED|B2E G2E FGA|B2d d2B AFA:|
|:B2d e2f g3|B2d g2e dBA|B2d e2f g2a|b2a g2e dBA:|
|:B3 B2A G2A|B3 BAB dBA|B3 B2A G2A|B2d g2e dBA:|

If you don't know about ABC, take the link above and also this one:The ABC Homepage. You can find software for turning it into sheet music such as ABC2Win and Muse. Also do a search of the forum, we've discussed it pretty thoroughly lately.

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04 Feb 98 - 10:53 AM (#20614)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

fsgw.org under swap links has both of those and many more. Henik is a young Swedish fiddler that specializes in Irish music and is pretty knowledgeable about it.

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04 Feb 98 - 03:32 PM (#20638)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From:

Roisin Dubh is one of the songs of the Aisling (vision) tradition, part of the Sean-Nós (Old Custom) canon in which Ireland is envisioned as a woman; these songs were partly a method of concealing nationalist sentiment when it was liable to get the singer hanged.

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04 Feb 98 - 03:39 PM (#20640)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

"Druimion Donn Delis" (Dear Brown Cow, often confused with Druimion Dubh Delis = traditional Drimandown, dear Black Cow), and "Granuaile" (on a recent thread) are two other songs in which Ireland appears in allegory.

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04 Feb 98 - 03:51 PM (#20641)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From:

Roisin Dubh is one of the songs of the Aisling (vision) tradition, part of the Sean-Nós (Old Custom) canon in which Ireland is envisioned as a woman; these songs were partly a method of concealing nationalist sentiment when it was liable to get the singer hanged.

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04 Feb 98 - 04:03 PM (#20643)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

I won't believe any of the above about a 16th century song or author until I see documentary evidence that this wasn't lifted from one of Grattan-Flood's books or articles. Too many books on Irish songs and music c 1900-1950 swallowed his lies and reprinted them without attribution to him.

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04 Feb 98 - 04:44 PM (#20644)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

As an example of Grattan-Flood's inventions, note the Uillean pipes. Flood couldn't figure out what 'union' meant in connection with the Irish pipes (union of chanter and regulators, c 1770-80) so decided that Uillean (Gaelic for elbow) was the right word, and now we are regularly told the lie that they are Uillean pipes because they are pumped by the action of the elbow. There were only union pipes pre-Flood.

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04 Feb 98 - 05:52 PM (#20645)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O

Celtic Music: A brief capsule of early Irish tune records. The world of Irish music is eagerly awaiting publication of a reported 5000 copies of early Irish tunes assembled by the late Prof. Aloys Fleischmann, by Garland Publishing Co. It was originally supposed to have apeared last year, but was not in their new titles catlog when I looked about two weeks ago.

At present the only very early Irish tunes that I know of are in the Wm. Ballat Lute Book MS (c 1580), with some of the same ones in the Fitzwilliam Virginal MS. A few Irish tunes appeared in England in the 17th century, and more in English publications of the early 18th century.

The Neals published in Dublin in 1724 'A collection of the most celebrated Irish tunes'(recently reprinted) and gave some more in a few collections of country dances spread over a few years subsequent.

About 1748 a collection of O'Carrolan's tunes were published (a few had appeared in ballad operas earlier), but all that survives, of what was apparently this, is a few pages. After about 1750 Irish printers issued single sheet songs with music, most of which were English songs, but books began to appear (not all of which are extant) about 1780.

The earliest known MS collection of tunes after those named earlier was one from a harper named O'Neill, 1787, and several tunes from the manuscript are in the Stanford-Petrie collection. I don't know if this manuscript is still extant. It has been said that the earliest manuscripts now known are those of Edw. Bunting. Donal O'Sullivan edited these and published the tunes in Journal of the Irish Folk Song Society, c 1927-9.

I have made an index of the titles of tunes in most of the works mentioned above (except I have used Bunting's 3 books rather than O'Sullivan's extended article) through the Stanford-Petrie collection (Petrie died in 1866), and I don't have Petries' 1855 volumes, and have 'theme coded' many so I can recognize the same tune under different titles (and there are a fair number of these). This is far from complete; I only have about 2500 tunes (but some are multiple versions of the same tune).

If anyone can add to or correct my brief account (beyond my poor spelling that is) here please do.

P. S. I almost forgot, there have been articles on Irish Music in Grove's Dictionary by O'Sullivan and the late (great) Breandan Breathnach. [O'Sullivan, usually good, when he made errors made huge ones so they are usually easy to spot. 'The Beggar's Wedding' (ballad opera) is not all Irish tunes, only about 10 out of 54 are. Peter Kennedy copied this error into his 'Folksongs of Britain and Ireland'.)

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04 Feb 98 - 06:06 PM (#20649)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

I forgot to add that in the 18th century Irish tunes can be found in several English works, especialy country dance collections. Scots works with Irish tunes are Oswald's 'Caledonian Pocket Comanion', Maclean's 'Scots Tunes', McGlashan's 'Scots Measures', 'The Scots Musical Museum' Aird's 'A Selection of Scots, English, Irish, and Foreign Airs', Brysson's 'Curious Collection'(mostly ~50 Irish tunes) and the Gows' 'Repository' and 'Strathspey Reels' series. These are besides works that are exclusively Irish tunes.

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04 Feb 98 - 08:20 PM (#20665)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Dan Mulligan

Mo Ghille Mear..... Not an allegorical name for Ireland it means "My Hero" And is an Irish song about Bonny Prince Charlie of Scotland.

Mulligan

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04 Feb 98 - 08:42 PM (#20666)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Dan Mulligan

THE BUTTERFLY------ Great tune Carol.... I am send the URL to a page that has it transcribed in D. http://spider.acns.fsu.edu/dupuy/janetto/Fiddle/jane_butterfly.html

This is a very fun tune to play. Have you seen the movie "the Secret Of Roan Inish?" "The Butterfly" is used as background music in a few scenes in that movie. They play it very loosely with a light and airy feel.

If you have software that converts MIDI to tablature (like Noteworthy composer) I can send you a MIDI file or NWC file of the tune.

Dan Mulligan [e-mail]

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04 Feb 98 - 08:56 PM (#20668)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Dan Mulligan

BRUCE O.----------- I would say something like : "Huh?" But you would probably not get the subltlety of that statement and probably take it as an invitation to go into greater depth on whatever it was that you were talking about.

Mulligan

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04 Feb 98 - 09:19 PM (#20670)
Subject: Tune Add: THE BUTTERFLY
From: alison

Hi Carol,

Do a search for "Richard Robinson's tune page" you'll find the music there.

Failing that here is the tune using Alan of Oz's midi2text, it explains how to use it and if you have a program like musicator it is then easy to get written music.

MIDI file: BUTTERF.MID

Timebase: 480

Name: The Butterfly
TimeSig: 9/8 24 4
Key: G
Tempo: 100 (600000 microsec/crotchet)
Start
0000 1 71 039 0478 0 71 039 0002 1 64 042 0238 0 64 042 0002 1 67 046 0478 0 67 046 0002 1 64 049 0238 0 64 049 0002 1 66 045 0478 0 66 045 0002 1 69 027 0238 0 69 027 0002 1 71 049 0478 0 71 049 0002 1 64 039 0238 0 64 039 0002 1 67 050 0478 0 67 050 0002 1 64 048 0238 0 64 048 0002 1 66 043 0238 0 66 043 0002 1 64 045 0238 0 64 045 0002 1 62 039 0238 0 62 039 0002 1 71 059 0478 0 71 059 0002 1 64 031 0238 0 64 031 0002 1 67 046 0478 0 67 046 0002 1 64 037 0238 0 64 037 0002 1 66 046 0478 0 66 046 0002 1 69 038 0238 0 69 038 0002 1 71 045 0478 0 71 045 0002 1 74 051 0238 0 74 051 0002 1 74 053 0478 0 74 053 0002 1 71 031 0238 0 71 031 0002 1 69 038 0238 0 69 038 0002 1 67 034 0238 0 67 034 0002 1 69 043 0238 0 69 043 0002 1 71 035 0478 0 71 035 0002 1 72 028 0238 0 72 028 0002 1 76 041 0478 0 76 041 0011 1 78 001 0210 0 78 001 0021 1 79 043 0718 0 79 043 0002 1 71 023 0478 0 71 023 0002 1 72 052 0238 0 72 052 0002 1 79 043 0478 0 79 043 0002 1 76 037 0238 0 76 037 0002 1 74 032 0238 0 74 032 0002 1 71 049 0238 0 71 049 0002 1 69 048 0238 0 69 048 0002 1 71 049 0478 0 71 049 0002 1 72 047 0238 0 72 047 0002 1 76 045 0478 0 76 045 0002 1 78 045 0238 0 78 045 0002 1 79 016 0478 0 79 016 0002 1 81 027 0238 0 81 027 0002 1 83 041 0478 0 83 041 0002 1 81 044 0238 0 81 044 0002 1 79 045 0478 0 79 045 0002 1 76 046 0238 0 76 046 0002 1 74 044 0229 0 74 044 0002 1 71 034 0247 0 71 034 0002 1 69 044 0238 0 69 044 0002 1 83 055 0238 0 83 055 0002 1 81 044 0238 0 81 044 0002 1 79 045 0238 0 79 045 0002 1 81 059 0238 0 81 059 0002 1 79 049 0238 0 79 049 0002 1 78 040 0238 0 78 040 0002 1 79 048 0238 0 79 048 0002 1 78 047 0238 0 78 047 0002 1 76 055 0238 0 76 055 0002 1 71 046 0478 0 71 046 0002 1 69 047 0238 0 69 047 0002 1 71 049 0478 0 71 049 0002 1 69 024 0238 0 69 024 0002 1 67 029 0478 0 67 029 0002 1 69 028 0238 0 69 028 0002 1 71 052 0718 0 71 052 0002 1 71 051 0238 0 71 051 0002 1 69 054 0238 0 69 054 0002 1 71 049 0238 0 71 049 0002 1 74 035 0238 0 74 035 0002 1 71 038 0238 0 71 038 0002 1 69 041 0238 0 69 041 0002 1 71 054 0478 0 71 054 0002 1 69 047 0238 0 69 047 0002 1 71 055 0478 0 71 055 0002 1 69 050 0238 0 69 050 0002 1 67 040 0478 0 67 040 0002 1 69 045 0238 0 69 045 0002 1 71 037 0478 0 71 037 0002 1 74 032 0238 0 74 032 0002 1 79 051 0478 0 79 051 0020 1 76 010 0210 0 76 010 0012 1 74 034 0238 0 74 034 0002 1 71 024 0238 0 71 024 0002 1 69 044 0238 0 69 044 0002 1 71 054 0478 0 71 054 0002 1 69 044 0238 0 69 044 0002 1 71 047 0478 0 71 047 0002 1 69 038 0238 0 69 038 0002 1 71 047 0478 0 71 047 0002 1 69 049 0238 0 69 049 0002 1 71 053 0478 0 71 053 0002 1 69 042 0238 0 69 042 0002 1 71 049 0478 0 71 049 0002 1 69 052 0238 0 69 052 0002 1 71 055 0478 0 71 055 0002 1 69 046 0238 0 69 046 0002 1 71 054 0478 0 71 054 0002 1 69 042 0238 0 69 042 0002 1 71 055 0478 0 71 055 0002 1 69 050 0238 0 69 050 0002 1 67 032 0478 0 67 032 0002 1 69 041 0238 0 69 041 0002 1 71 042 0478 0 71 042 0002 1 74 041 0238 0 74 041 0002 1 79 054 0478 0 79 054 0002 1 76 050 0238 0 76 050 0002 1 74 037 0238 0 74 037 0002 1 71 048 0238 0 71 048 0002 1 69 034 0238 0 69 034
End

This program is worth the effort of learning it.

To download the January 15 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here

ABC format:

X:1
T:The Butterfly
M:9/8
Q:1/4=100
K:G
B2EG2EF2A|B2EG2EFED|B2EG2EF2A|B2dd2BAGA|B2ce2f7/8g25/8|
B2cg2edBA|B2ce2fg2a|b2ag2edBA|bagagfgfe|B2AB2AG2A|
B3BABdBA|B2AB2AG2A|B2dg2edBA|B2AB2AB2A|B2AB2AB2A|
B2AB2AG2A|B2dg2edBA||

Have fun

Slainte

Alison

---

04 Feb 98 - 09:26 PM (#20672)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: alison

Hi,

Only one problem, there should be a repeat after the first 4 bars, (you'll see it if you traslate the music, but you won't hear it on the midi file.) Must ask Alan how to get around that one.

Slainte

Alison

---

05 Feb 98 - 11:38 AM (#20708)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

Another source I forgot above is Thumoth's '12 Scotch and 12 Irish Airs' and '12 English and 12 Irish Airs', both c 1745. With the addition Thompson's 'The Hibernian Muse' c 1787, and MacDonald's Scots Gaelic collection, 1784, I've sketched out almost all of the known sources purlished collections of Celtic tunes up to c 1793-5.

---

05 Feb 98 - 02:21 PM (#20723)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: dsmith1315

looking for wds to the song "the rebel jesus" sung on a cd by elvis costello w/the clannards, I think.

---

05 Feb 98 - 03:48 PM (#20725)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

This thread was started by a man whose last name indicates he is descended from the Q-Celts. With the exception of a few tunes from the Gaelic speaking Scots of the highlands and islands, scatered around in various Scots collections of the 18th century, I have listed above practically all the sources of music of the Q-Celts prior to c 1793. Scholars have turned up a few other early Irish tunes that are commented on in fairly recent journals. Check, for instance, for Prof. David Greer of the Univ. of Durham. A discussion of the subject of early Celtic tunes has just started on the Scots music list Scots-L, and some contributors to this DT forum are also on that list.

---

06 Feb 98 - 03:33 AM (#20781)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Wolfgang Hell

for dsmith 1315:

Next time, don't bury your question in the middle of a thread, for it might be overlooked this way (I nearly did). Start your own thread and title it, e.g., "Requested: Rebel Jesus".
The song you are looking for is on a CD titled "The Bells of Dublin" not by Clannad, but by the Chieftains. Click here for the lyrics of The Rebel Jesus
Wolfgang

---

06 Feb 98 - 05:30 PM (#20832)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Jerry Friedman

Bruce, you never cease to amaze and impress me.

---

07 Feb 98 - 06:05 PM (#20913)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: dick greenhaus

Dan- If you DON'T start a new thread for each item you're looking for, Someone with the same request six months from now will never find it. That's why we've tried so hard to implement some pretty damn sophisticated search routines on this site.

---

08 Feb 98 - 04:27 PM (#20973)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Dan Mulligan

Interesting point Dick, but I dont understand why you took such a snotty tone with me.I didn't realize that the search engine only searches the titles of the postings,not the article itself. That really does limit this forum doesn't it? Especially when there are searchers available that can do that.

---

08 Feb 98 - 06:15 PM (#20979)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bill D

Dan Mulligan! What is 'snotty' about pointing out the logic of how people think? People, for the most part, think in terms of titles! One CAN search the bodies of the messages for certain word combinations also, but that is not MY first impulse! I have been following this from the beginning, and it happens over and over that a request buried in the middle of a thread gets missed and ignored! ....Besides, the big internet search engines work on completely different algorithms....and can be two weeks or more behind on what they do catalogue..) *re-reading Dick's remarks again...I nothing 'snotty' about it...he merely disagreed with your viewpoint*

(yes...I'm sure you can speak for yourself, Dick...I just got a bit upset at that one!)

---

09 Feb 98 - 05:02 PM (#21063)
Subject: Tune Add: STEG KNETTER'D AT THE SNECK BAND
From: Anon.

Early Celtic Song and Music

Ireland and Wales had a brisk trade with the Hawaiians for a long time in the early middle ages, trading their vowels for Hawaian consonants. But, a gigantic underseas cataclysm raised a continent right in the middle of the trade route, and many ships were wrecked on it, and trade came to a dead stop, just in time actually, as supplies were being severely depleted in Wales. There was also some internal friction in the British Isles about whether to ship more p's or q's and this lead to warring factions called p-Celts and q-Celts. Cunneda (Kenneth of Lothian), tired of the fighting and bored with the border ballads around Chevy Chace, came to Wales and after a lot of begatting his heirs got an Arthur who managed to get all the p-Celts onto one island and the q's, except for the Irish tribe called Scots, onto the other.)

Norwegian emigrants to this new continent, calling themselves Hurons, salvaged the cargos of the old shipwrecks, but didn't know what to do with them, until a p-Celt who had failed as a missionary to the q-Celts, St. Patrick, and his crew, came over and told them what they really had. The missionaries thought they had pieces enough to build a rudimentary Gaelic vocabulary for the Hurons, but things kept getting fouled up, because the Hurons couldn't spell Gaelic any better than the Angles and the Saxons. Never-the-less Pat taught them some Celtic songs and the more northern tribes picked these up and distributed them widely in eastern Canada. They were especially popular with the Huron's brothers, the Inuits. But when the Hurons asked St. Patrick a question, he usually didn't know the answer, and just started hand-waving. The Hurons thought this was sign language, and that certainly didn't help matters much. Thus the Gaelic, 'Eire, the place with no snakes', in Huron came out as, 'Erie, the place of the cat'.

How this came about is easily explained. St. Patrick was boasting a bit here, telling them about how he had chased the snakes out of Eire, for the purpose of eliminating the Druid's supply of harp strings. ('The Harp That Once Through Tara's Hall' had played has been without strings ever since.) It had been pretty easy to scare off the snakes, as all Pat really had to do was chase after them with the hex song devised by the distantly related Peredur Long Spear (who, under the nome de plume Percival, later chased after the holy grail) and Gwyllym Shake Spear (bard of Avon), "Ye spotted snakes with double tongue". But the Hurons had catgut strings for their harps and garrotes, and knew that they had to go to Erie to get the cats, and they were stubbornly insistant about that, Saint or no Saint. As related in 'Culwch and Olwen', Eri was father of Greid, and they were dogs, and Hurons had named their sacred place in honor of the father, but the Hurons found the dogs there so delicious, that they had soon eaten all of them and were forced to turn to the cats, who had quickly found this dogless place, for the necessary substitute parts.

The Druids had previously formed large instrumental groups with these snake string harps. (Snake skins were quite deficient in harmonics, and you had to be careful how you plucked them because a hyper viper would just hiss, and woe to you if you tickled and got a madder adder, so it took many instruments with a wide variety of snakes and highly skilled Druid herpetologists to sound decent.)

Snakes made very poor bowstrings, too, and this lead to Eire being overrun by deer, so although the Druids didn't really want to do it, the does were always forgetting their night before or morning after Pill to Purge Melancholy, and the Animal Righters and Right to Lifers left them little alternative but to neuter the stags. The stags weren't too happy about it either, but formed a mutual support group, and with the aid of some sympathetic Italian male sopranos they concocted 'The Lamentable Ballad of the Neutered Stags". A debased traditional version survives as "No balls at all", and this is the first recorded instance of communal composition of a ballad. The Italians had brought instruments with them from Cremona, fidells, that used vibrating strings of catgut which they imported from the Hurons, and these proved very popular with the cats, because of their screeching tone, which reminded them of their mother, and even smelled like her, but proved poor for accompaniment of songs (except those of the cats).

The original tune for our stag song has long been supplanted by a traditional one, much like the case of the Druids' lamentation for their smooching cow, "Druimion Dubh Delis", (Drimandown), beloved mother of the Dub, the Brown Bull of Cuailnge. Drimandown's tune (not the original, Scots Musical Museum #303, or that in MacDonald's collection of 1784 = Corri's Scots Songs, vol II, p. 29 = SMM #179) from a traveling plumber of mixed black Irish and Scottish descent called Oisin son of Finn mac Cumaill (or Plumbium Wame) was used for a second song in commemorating her called "Kisses sweeter than wine". Druimionn Dubh was the three-titted cow that the witch Morigen milked to quench Cuchulain's thirst (as documentated in 'The Tain'). Morigen (Morgan the Wise/ le Fay) was the transexual evil half- sister/brother of Arthur the Briton, (Gormant, son of Eigr/ Ygerna and Ricca. The latter being called Gorlois by Geoffrey of Monmouth) and had gone along to Eire on the chase of Twrch Trwyth.

After Arthur's shaggy dog Cavel had killed Chief Boar Ysgithyrwyn at the Spring of Emain, just a few hundred yards down the hill from Emain Macha (before Fergus burnt it and Tara's Hall was built on the old site) the Britons returned home (Tain and Mabinogion: Culwch and Olwen). The Druid salvage experts took Ysgithyrwyn's parts and found ingenius uses for them. This was celebrated in a song which over the course of time got things a little fouled up and is now called "The sow took the measles and she died in the spring" with even more corrupt versions like "The Red Herring" or "The Wonderful Crocodile". The modern versions of the song leaves out an important verse. Ysgithrwyn's stomach was thought might be good for a football, and attempts were made to inflate it, but the hole for the upper end of the large intestine leaked so badly that they attempted to plug it up with the nearest thing handy, unfortunately, a reed instrument called a recorder, and inadvertently invented that infernal noisemaker, the bagpipe. Dierdre and the Sons of Usnoth took one with them to the Irish in Galloway (the Dal Riada Scots), where it became a great favorite of the Scots for striking terror into the hearts of the Picts, and everyone else in range. (Never as effective as the Druid's marching snake harp bands, if the truth be told.)

But I digress. The stags didn't have a tune for their song, so applied to Taliesein (whose early version of "I was born about thousand years ago" is recorded in 'The Book of Talesein', unfortunately without his tune for it). He came up with both melody and accompaniment for a mass snake harp band, and it was decided to present it at a concert celebrating the conclusion of the great war of the Tain Bo Cuailnge in honor of the victor, Dub, The Brown Bull of Cuailnge, son of Druimion Dubh. This was presented to great applause by all the well satisfied (and non-pregnant) does at the natural amphitheater called the Ring of Giants (obviously before Merlin stole it and ruined the beautiful meadowlands of Stonehenge, by making it the trash dump for all his useless rocks, after they proved not to be the philosophers stone.)

The original tune of our song of the stags still survives, however, under two badly corrupt titles. As usual the English got things all screwed up on it, when they printed the tune in 'The Gentlemans Magazine'. More nearly correct is the title in BL MS Add'l 23971, where it appears as "Staggs knattered, or Snake band". ['Catalog of MS Music in the British Museum', II (Secular Music), p. 201, where the librarians have unaccountably classified it as an English tune.]

X:1
T:STEG KNETTER'D AT THE SNECK BAND
N:from 'The Gentleman's Magazine', p. 288, 1753
M:6/8
K:G
d3BGB|c3A3|BGB dBd|gdc BAG|cec B3|AFA c3|BdB AFD|G3G,3::\
b3dfb|a2Adfa|gfg eag|fed D2^f|ece a3|dBd gdc|BGB AFD|G3G,3:|]

---

09 Feb 98 - 06:12 PM (#21071)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: the Akond of Swat

just a couple of relevant follow-ups to the above http://mirage.kky.vslib.cz/~bullshit/bullshit.jpg http://panda.bg.univ.gda.pl/~padom/unb.gif

---

09 Feb 98 - 06:13 PM (#21072)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Helen

With reference to Dan Mulligan & Bill D's discussion about searching thread titles and the body of the thread:

Another reason for making a separate thread title for each request is that people browsing the current thread titles for an interesting discussion can see the request immediately, and help out with info. I only drop in on a very long discussion like this one every couple of weeks or so, because I am usually interested in the more specific threads on a daily basis, and then I catch up on the deeper ones like this when I have more time.

Helen

---

09 Feb 98 - 07:34 PM (#21080)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: the Akond of Swat

the Akond sure messed that up! One more try! (Now that the surprise is gone.)

just a couple of relevant follow-ups to the learned analysis above

---

09 Feb 98 - 08:49 PM (#21084)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Dan Mulligan

Um......... the makers of the big Internet search engines have software available for searching INTERNAL files. The software is readily available and not very expensive and will find the word that you are looking for whether it is buried in the article OR in the title. That way you don't have to choose to search one or the other. You can purchase software from Altavista for example that you can use on your PC to search your own files. In fact you can download a shareware version. Also I had no problem with the fact that he disagreed with me but that he took a tone that was aggresive, and I still don't understand why. And I agree with you Helen, that is probably the best reason to make a seperate thread for each new request. I just thought I would try it this way, I had no idea that it would be met with such vehement oposition. Also it has proven that a longer thread will be overrun by bores like Bruce O. that choose to dazzle us with their expertise on everything. So, I suppose that I am saying that I abandon my stance on the subject and concede defeat. I also would like to applaud the article by Anon. which is a hilarious parody on the B.S. that Bruce has been posting for the past weeks. Bravo. Dan Mulligan

---

09 Feb 98 - 10:30 PM (#21094)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Helen

Dan

I found Bruce's information very worthwhile, and just the sort of information I would hope to find in a thread on Celtic music, i.e.what books are available and what can I expect to find in them. The other thing I was looking for in this thread, and it is in here a bit already, is the links other people have found in the net for anything to do with the Celtic tradition.

We all have our areas of expertise, and giving and receiving i.e. sharing that expertise between each other is what I find most rewarding in coming to the Mudcat forum, apart from the pure social fun of chatting with like-minded folks.

Helen

---

10 Feb 98 - 09:00 AM (#21119)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Wolfgang Hell

Yes, it has happened in the past few months that one post or even a whole thread was not interesting for me. I then stopped reading it but never assumed that it would also be without interest for everybody else. We are a group with mixed interests and backgrounds. Therefore we cannot expect that a contribution is read by everyone with the same level of fascination. And even if there was only one person who was looking just for the information posted it was worth the effort.

Bruce, please go on posting these informations for me and at least some others. I do highly appreciate reading about the historical background for songs or tunes, about when and where a song was first published, about title variants and so on.

Wolfgang

---

10 Feb 98 - 11:25 AM (#21130)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Anon.

Early Celtic Music

I forgot to add at the end of the 1st paragaph that a sub-tribe of the Dal Riada Scots known as the Campbells had discovered a recipe for a delicious soup using Picts for the base stock. It was appropriately called Scotch Broth. (Earlier tries with Britons proved unsatisfactory, because theyjust couldn't get all the woad off and no one would eat blue soup.)

[I thank Charlie B. for proding my memory here.]

---

10 Feb 98 - 01:39 PM (#21137)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bill D

Mr. Mulligan, sir,...

1) I would love to have Alta Vista, or other, software for my local and/or intranet searches, but it seems that almost all of it is WIN95 based, and I cannot use it, and it represents a cash outlay that I cannot deal with for the forseeable future..(I read recently that 70% or so of users still use WIN3.1)

2) If you add 'agressive' to 'snotty' in your characterization of Dick's very short & mild remark, you will find that you are pretty much out there by yourself.

3) If you have the audacity to describe the 30+ years of research that Bruce O has devoted to this field as 'BS', just because YOU don't care to follow the details, then you display abomnible manners! Yes...the parody was hilarious, and Bruce probably enjoyed it..(who know...maybe he wrote it..*shrug*), but the material being parodied is of inestimable use to some of us! You have already gotten the 'polite' responses to your remark...this is the one that others are probably thinking...... Do re-think how your words appear before you criticize!

---

10 Feb 98 - 01:47 PM (#21139)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

Thanks, Bill. Let's hope that rubbish by Anon. is over now and we can return to real Celtic music.

Music of the p-Celts. I have no information on any tune that might have been published in Brittany before the end of the 18th century, nor can I find in BUCEM any books of music published on the Isle of Man prior to 1800.

This leaves Welsh tunes as the only ones I know of. Edward Jones published 'Musical and Poetical Relicks of the Welsh Bards' in 1784, with an extended edition in 1794, with a second part in 1800. John Parry has a few Welsh tunes scattered around in some of his publications which are listed in BUCEM.

The 16th century tune "Sedany or Dargeson" may be a Welsh one. Sedany is a corruption of the feminine name Sidanen, and a ballad by Lodovick Lloyd of 1579 in praise of Queen Elizabeth calls for the tune as "Welshe Sydanen". (Internet broadside index ZN3235)

---

10 Feb 98 - 02:25 PM (#21145)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bo

To Bruce O

The BS. from Anon was amusing and somewhat inspired by the multiple bits of history that I (for one) have trouble relating without the background education. I really appreciate having access to someone who has a background in this sort of history, please dont take offence at the small minded or easily bored.

Would you be so kind as to give a _real_ explanation of the (insert consonant) celts. I have read some broad histories of the celts\scottish etc people but I would really like to be able relate it to my folk education.

I understand that there are space constraints and I certainly dont want to make this drudgery for you but I would appreciate some background either on this topic or (probably better) under a new heading. If you would prefer email me at [e-mail], but I think there are others on this forum who are serious enough to appreciate your words.

Bo.

slainte

---

10 Feb 98 - 03:16 PM (#21147)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

I'm now experts on Celts, but a brush up was on the Scots-l list a little over a week ago.

Roughly Celts were divided into three language groups, Goidelic, (European and long extinct as a language), Gaelic (Irish and Scots), and Brythonic (Welsh, Manx, Breton).

A Northern Irish group called Scots colonized Argyle and Kintyre and adjacent islands in the 3rd and 4th centuries A.D. establishing the 1st kingdom of Dalriada. A further group of Scots under Fergus mac E-something and two brothers conquered the Dalriada Scots about 500 A.D. and established the 2nd kingdom of Dalriada. These subsequently absorbed and eliminated the Picts, and occupied the highlands and western and northern islands of Scotland (named after these Irish).

John Morris in his history 'The Age of Arthur' notes 3 massive emigrations of Britons (Cymri/ Welsh) to Brittany, the 1st is a little fuzzy, but sometime in the period 380-420 A.D. when Roman rule was disintegrating in England. The 2nd was about 460 A.D. when Vortigen's kindom (under a successor) fell apart, and the 3rd about 520 A.D. when civil war in Wales divided the kingdom. [This may have ended with the battle of Camlann, in which Arthur and Modred supposedly perished).

A further note: 'Welsh' derives from a Saxon word meaning 'foreigner' and isn't from Celtic, and modern Welsh prefer to be called Cymri.

---

10 Feb 98 - 03:17 PM (#21148)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bill D

dear anon...the tune you posted above for "Steg Knetter'd at the Sneck Band"... isn't that one of those rare little things known as a 'Trip Jig'? These were written for dancers who had lost a limb in battle and were using crutches...it was considered a dubious honor to be asked to dance to one, as it usually resulted in further injury.

---

10 Feb 98 - 03:35 PM (#21151)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Anon.

I dunno. The 9/8 ones were called slip jigs or hop jigs. Some slipped, some hopped, maybe some even managed to dance a bit. I think it was from getting broken arms in the latter that they developed the hornpipe type with the arms stiff at the sides.

---

10 Feb 98 - 03:48 PM (#21152)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bill D

I thought the 'arms down' thing was the result of the one Ecumenical conference between the Catholics and the Calvinists, where the only thing they could agree on was that dancers should avoid any appearance of actually touching one another! Some of those 'kick' steps were intended as metaphorical moral reminders to dancers of the opposite sex not to get too close.

---

10 Feb 98 - 04:22 PM (#21154)
Subject: Tune Add: THE REEL OF HARDEN and THE SCOTS WRIGGLE
From: Anon.

There were a lot of accidents with those new fangled reels (see X:1) with that extra eighth note at the end of every measure and a lot of limbs were broken slipping around it or hopping over it, and they were called hop jigs or slip jigs because of that. Then a wise Scot figured out you could just wiggle around it, like in the 2nd dance below.

X:1
T:THE REEL OF HARDEN
N:Oswald's Caledonian Pocket Companion
L:1/8
M:9/8
K:Am
B2G GGG Bdg|B2G GGG cAF|~B2G GGG gde|f2F (ABcA)f2A::\
g2dg2dgdB|g2dgdef2A|g2d~e2d Bde|f2F (A/B/c)Bf2A:|]

x:2
T:THE SCOTS WRIGGLE
N:Oswald's Caledonian Pocket Companion
L:1/8
M:9/8
K:D mixolydian
G2c~B2G (B/c/d)B|G2c~B2G efg|G2d~B2G dBG|F2A AFD (F/G/A)F|\
G2gg2G B/c/dB|G2gg2e (f/g/a)f|gfe dcB cde|~F2A AFD (F/G/A)F::\
G3 BGB (A/B/cA)|G3 BGB (A/B/c)A|G3 BGB (A/B/c)A|\
(B/c/d)B gdB AFD:|]

---

10 Feb 98 - 04:31 PM (#21155)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

Bo, early Irish (called Scots) history in Scotland is in Fitzroy Maclean's 'A Concise History of Scotland', 1970, reprinted 1988, which I think can be picked up at any Borders or other large bookstore.

---

10 Feb 98 - 04:42 PM (#21156)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

Bo, same for reprint of John Morris's book, 'The Age of Arthur' mentioned above, which I think is good on the Welsh. My Irish history book has lots on the major kings and their rivals mostly in and around Munster, but not much on most of the rest of Ireland, so I will not pass on any recommendation. Anyone else have any favorites here? Anyone know of any history of Brittany? Morris has some for 5th and 6th centuries.

---

10 Feb 98 - 04:49 PM (#21157)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

I would like to know more about northern England and the borders country from the 7th century on. Can anyone recomend a good book that's relatively easy to get?

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11 Feb 98 - 12:15 PM (#21196)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: the professor

Ther problem with these types of forums is that almost anyone can claim to be an expert, and have studied a subject for thirty years. in this forum Bruce O. has mistakenly presented q-celts and p-celts as subgroups of celts. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. The terms p- celtic and q-celtic refer to language groups. Insular Celtic is that group of languages centered in the British Isles. It is in turn divided into Goidelic (or _q_-Celtic) and Britannic (or _p_-Celtic). (The terms _q_- and _p_- refer to their respective develop- ments of the Indo-European labiovelar *kªwª; it became Õkþ in Goidelic and Õpþ in Britannic.) The Goidelic branch includes Irish, Scots Gaelic, and Manx. . . . The Britannic (or Brythonic) branch of Celtic comprises Welsh, Cornish, and Breton. . . .

Juris G. Lidaka Dept. of English West Virginia State College There were two waves of invasions to the British Isles which gave rise to the P/Q variaties we have today. The first invasion was to Ireland in the 4th century BC, probably from Western France. This variant became Gaelic and spread from Ireland to the Isle of Man and Scotland. The second invasion (P-Celtic) was to southern England and Wales and from there (in 5th century AD) to Brittany. Celtic languages have also spread from Britain. 150 Welsh speakers started a Welsh colony in Patagonia in 1865, and there is also a Scots Gaelic community in Cape Breton Island, Nova Scotia. (about 1,000 speakers today). Breton is not classified as continental Celtic because it came to Brittany from Britain. There was a Gaelic speaking community in the Carolinas but this died out in the early 20th century.

Pictish: The Picts were Celts but spoke a mixture of languages. They spoke a pre-Celtic language for ritualistic purposes (source: Prof Derek Thompson - "Why Gaelic matters"), and Pictish at other times. Pictish is mentioned The Cambridge Encyclopedia of language as possibly being Celtic or possibly being a non-Indo-European isolate like Basque. Thompson says "It is clear from the evidence of place names that there was much common ground between [Brythonic] and the Celtic constituent of Pictish". There is some debate as to whether Pictish was non IE or not, as there is so little information available on it. There are three groups of Celtic languages: Continental, Brythonic, and Goidelic. The only known Continental Celtic language was Gaulish, which died out some time during the Roman occupation during the first four centuries AD. The Brythonic (or P-Celtic) languages are Welsh, Breton, and Cornish (in order of prevalence). The Goidelic (or -Celtic) languages are Irish Gaelic, Scots Gaelic (this is usually the language which is called "Gaelic"), and Manx Gaelic (again in order of prevalence). The Brythonic and Goidelic strains are distinguished primarily by the fact that the former will have "p" and "b" in places in words where the latter will have "c" and "g."

Welsh (Cymraeg) is alive and well, with over 500,000 speakers in modern Wales. It is most prevalent in the northern and western hill country of Wales, where English language and customs have never fully taken root. There may still be Welshmen who are not fluent in English. Breton (Brezhoneg) is the language of Celtic Brittany, where refugees from the Saxons fled during the 500s and 600s AD. Modern Breton has digested many elements of French, but is still essentially Celtic. Most speakers of Breton are elderly, and almost all of these also know French. Thus, the future of the language is in some doubt, although 500,000 still speak it. Cornish (Kernewek) was the language of Cornwall, the enclave of Celtic resistance to the Saxon invasion at the corner of southwestern England. Cornwall fell to Wessex in 856, and the Cornish language virtually died out at the end of the 18th century. At this time, however, there are over a hundred people who are at least semi-fluent in the old Cornish tongue.

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11 Feb 98 - 12:37 PM (#21197)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

Professor. I unfortunately spelled two words incorectly in my introductory sentence above. It should have read "I'm no expert on Celts." I cited my main sources, with subsequent references, except for the precise language division, summarized (as I understood it) from a note recently on the Scots-L list.

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11 Feb 98 - 12:49 PM (#21198)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Jerry Friedman

Professor, as I read what Bruce wrote, he did not claim to be an expert on Celts. Unfortunately, his disclaimer was a little folk-processed.

Anyway, if I may summarize, your version is the way I learned it (as a non-expert):
P-Celtic = Brythonic = Welsh, Cornish, Breton languages
Q-Celtic = Goidelic = Irish, Manx, Scots Gaelic languages

Thanks for informing me that Gaulish was from a third, Continental branch--which surprised me because I thought at least some of the Brythonic-speaking people (who of course came from the Continent) were Gauls or something very similar.

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11 Feb 98 - 01:01 PM (#21199)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

Refering back to Craig Cockburn's note on the Scots-L list, I did mix up Goidelic with continental Celtic, and put Manx as p-Celt, rather than q-Celt. Jerry, above, has them correctly.

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11 Feb 98 - 01:50 PM (#21204)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

Just what is our professor a professor of? We don't often have professional academics on this list that I know of. I'm simply an amateur historian of folk and other old popular songs and tunes here, with a smattering of other related information picked up almost at random, or as opportunity allows.

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11 Feb 98 - 06:49 PM (#21212)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bo

I dont understand why everyone is so deffensive. Thank you everyone for your help. I agree with everyone who said there are a number of problems with this medium making instant experts. I dont think anyone is in dissagreement there. Its laudable that so many of you are stating your sources and that the thread has continued till we hashed out an answer.

Thank you Bruce, 'Professor' Anon and everyone who cared enough to contribute.

bo

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11 Feb 98 - 07:11 PM (#21213)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

Bo, a calm sane approach on the internet? My God, what a novel idea! It'le never sell.

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11 Feb 98 - 08:48 PM (#21219)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Tinwhistlers Mutha

Jerry-Actually I think that Bill D was claiming that Bruce O is an expert when he stated that Bruce had put in 30 plus years into research.....Bruce O made no attempt to deny it. It would appear that the professor pointed out the errors in his ramblings. My guess is that the Professor is a linguist....perhaps? Bill D- you get points for your humor but you would appear to be wrong about Mulligan,Bruce O. and searchers . Anon- great stuff. Got anything on the origins of the Tinwhistle? Dan M- sorry they drove you out. Maybe we can talk Celtic music in another thread some time. I have seen your postings, you seem to have some good tunes.

T.M. (a Tinwhistle addict)

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11 Feb 98 - 11:48 PM (#21228)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bill D

All I meant to claim was that Bruce knows the music and the history thereof...I've known him personally for about 20 years and he was publishing articles on song and tune histories long before I met him... One is not 'wrong' or 'right' on Mulligan-related things...one is merely opinionated..*smile*...and I hope Dan does not condider himself 'driven out'...he has posted a number of nice posts in other threads...

On searchers...boy, if I AM wrong, I'd sure like to find out! I can't find any internal search programs for WIN3.1....I know I can use the 'find' command to locate words in a file I already have loaded, but that has no relation to the problem of finding stuff in Mudcat threads---where Max has already provided some powerful search tools...I think we may not all be talking about the same thing on this one, and it seems that almost everyone hsa agreed that it is 'safest' to post requests to a new thread....

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12 Feb 98 - 11:07 AM (#21264)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Tinwhistlers Mutha

Why would they need a searcher for WIN 3.1 at Mudcat? Dan was clearly pointing out that Mudcat could use one of the searchers, not you. Whether the technology exists and is relatively available for that purpose is a fact, not a matter of opinion, and you were clearly wrong about the sophistication of a technology that searches only titles. He stated that he thought that the Mudcat searcher searched the bodies of the articles when he started the thread, and conceeded that starting a new thread was the right thing to do once he knew that. I agree, I have seen some "nice" posts from Dan, in fact they were all nice until you and Bruce started up. This thread started up with this posting, "Use this thread to share links to celtic music (MIDI, files, GIFs, Etc.) Also use this thread to post files that you are looking for." Bruce , however, chose to write pages of misinformation on Celtic culture. THAT was rude. As a Tinwhistle addict it would have been nice to have been able to use this thread the way that it started out.

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12 Feb 98 - 11:28 AM (#21268)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

I did not write pages of misinformation about Celtic culture. I have pointed out the two mistakes that I know I made, both regarding languages. I do not believe the history that the professor said came from a Juris G Lidaka. Julius Caesar knew about the Celts and their Druids on the British Isles centuries before the professor says they got there.

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12 Feb 98 - 11:35 AM (#21270)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

Sorry, I goofed. Professor does say B. C. and not A.D., or C. E. for the migrations to Britain.

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12 Feb 98 - 11:43 AM (#21271)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bill D

okey dokey....no one wins in a pissing contest....point taken about the thread, tinwhistle--no more from me in that vein. The music is more important than defending some little point.....

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12 Feb 98 - 12:01 PM (#21272)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

I've learned a valuable lesson. Never try to compose somthing in the thread message box. I find it hard to check spelling that way. You can check with your books as references, but not references in other ASCII files on your computer. I do not have too many of these, since it is true as the professor said that there are a lot of self-styled experts on the internet, so I'm pretty chosey about what I use from it, and never anything from anyone I haven't some good reason to believe is reliable.

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12 Feb 98 - 12:15 PM (#21275)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bill D

Bruce...there is a very nice little freeware spell checker on this page it has several languages available and is easy to use...I use it anytime I type more than a few quick lines..it works in almost ANY 'edit box' like this....

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12 Feb 98 - 12:54 PM (#21278)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

Thanks Bill D.

Beyond my two errors on Goidelic and Manx, not one seems to have pointed out any others in my contributions above. If you know of any please let me know. If I am misinformed, I am ready reevaluate the information I have in the light of new evidence.

I also admit that there were several untruths in a little parody I added above under the pseudonym of 'Anon.'. The references are all real, but I embellished a few facts beyond that warranted in the references. I also thank those on the Scots-L list that saw a slightly earlier version for not blowing my cover.

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13 Feb 98 - 12:14 AM (#21325)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Anon.

You weren't Anon. I was Anon.!

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13 Feb 98 - 12:29 AM (#21326)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

Anon. Doubtlessly you are one of many, but neither you nor they wrote the parody on Celtic music above. I have the return copy of my slightly different version posted to the scots-l list about 3 weeks ago. I am sure Max can discover where every item posted came from, and time and date of submission. One can't really be Anon here or on any lists for which a record is kept.

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13 Feb 98 - 06:40 AM (#21342)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Frank in the swamps

Since The Professor has drawn a distinction between the Celts and the celtic languistic groups solely for the purpose of denigrating Bruce (I had no difficulty understanding the disclaimer of "now" expertise), I think it would be helpful to point out the difference between the Celts and the folk music we label "celtic". If you wanna split hairs this fine, go find some music from Ireland in the year 300 a.d. then we'll see what celtic music is all about. Also, since The Professor is the first authority I've read who settled the question of whether or not the Picts were Celts, perhaps he can explain why they were a celtic people who spoke both a pre-celtic language, and Pictish, an unidentified language, possibly a non Indo-European isolate, but not Celtic?

I'd suspect Dan (he took nae brag o his swift nag, that bore him aff sae fleet man)Mulligan of spending hours poring over the encyclopedia trying to outdo Bruce, but for the fact that I don't think he has the head for it. Anyway, I think he bailed out.

It's certainly a loss not having Shula around, she once hoisted me up for an inappropriate remark. I dearly hope that "the ticker that took a lickin" is still a tickin'. In any event, Bruce O. You are an awesome old windbag, keep it coming. I come to the Mudcat because it is a stimulating forum, there are plenty of "fanzines" for those who just wanna coo over their fave way cool bands.

Frank in the swamps.

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13 Feb 98 - 10:18 AM (#21350)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Jon W.

Still, there is something to be learned here. Mudcatters had a fairly well established but non-written convention: one song, one thread (except for the fantasy song circles and their like). Dan comes in and tries to change it (using the imperative form, no less). The result is civil war. Can any war really be civil? I would like (if I had the authority) to declare the "late unpleasantness" to be over. Let's get on with the music.

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13 Feb 98 - 02:05 PM (#21364)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

Jon. W., I guess it's ok by me. I still don't quite know what Tinwhistlers Mutha was charging me with. I thought I mentioned my interests as an amateur historian of folk and old popular songs and tunes, and I made no claim to be an expert on any aspect of this, but I guess that was on another thread.

For one of the short articles and notes I published in the 'Folk Music Journal' of the EFDSS, I got about 6 reprints. This is the sole compensation I've ever gotten in any form for anything to do with my studies of old songs. No expenses of mine along this line have ever been compensated for in any way (well, maybe I inadvertently walked out from work with a ball point pen in my pocket a few times). I trust that does not make me a professional or expert.

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13 Feb 98 - 08:33 PM (#21403)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Dan Mulligan

Bruce O.> That was just a joke. I knew it would get your goat. *smile* If you are indeed "Anon." then I still applaud your humor, some very funny stuff. Frank in the swamps> I am indeed "the Professor" and I did not spend hours pouring over encyclopedias.I didn't have to. And I suspect that you are attempting to stir the pot once again. I personally don't care enough about your opinion to engage you. Jon > Point well made.All I ever wanted to do was share the music with others that enjoy it as much as I. Peace to all. Dan Mulligan

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13 Feb 98 - 09:48 PM (#21407)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

Peace, Dan, I guess we have somewhat different notions of what Celtic music is, but I can live with that, that's part of life no matter the subject, as long as one doesn't live in a totalitarian state where you're told what you have to believe.
I found out by copying the thead as HTML that there is what seems obviously to be a serial number attached to each submission to the forum, but I would never ask Dick, Susan, or Max to identify a sender for me, however curious I might be.
Dan, you might be interested in the Irish music list, IRTRAD-L. There you'll find every thing from 18th century Irish (mostly dance and instrumental, but occasionally even a Gaelic song) to modern Celtic and Riverdance/ Lord of the Dance. Several ABC's turn up every week, some of them with no name, asking an identification of the tune. Among the list members are about three who can identify almost anything.
Akond of Swat, I couldn't connect to your URL's. Care to try again?

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14 Feb 98 - 12:42 AM (#21410)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Dan Mulligan

It is interesting that Max is now considering grouping the threads by category now, perhaps this little "civil war" had something to do with that idea. Bruce O.> I have no reason to believe that we have any differing opinions about celtic music, I would enjoy hearing what kind of tunes you enjoy. What do you play? Have you got any real cool old tunes? I really enjoy knowing that I am playing a great tune that was played hundreds of years ago. (trivia question : can you name they oldest known bagpipe setting? I have it.) And how do I use the IRTRAD-L? As far as serial numbers, I am sure that an IP address is attached to each posting and could be traced to the server from which that posting originated.I take credit for my own , "the Professor," and the one Anon. (You weren't Anon. I was Anon.!)which was just a joke. At any rate these guys sure beat their chests alot don't they?*grin* Dan Mulligan (Donal O'Maoligain)

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14 Feb 98 - 02:23 PM (#21447)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bill D

up above I tried to post the address to a spell checker...I just heard that it didn't work..I seem to have entered it in the wrong place in the 'template' I use...here is the correct address for anyone who is interested...http://clever.net/quinion/spell/

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14 Feb 98 - 04:42 PM (#21455)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

Thanks Bill. I've found I can go from message box here to a file on my computer, and back. It would be nice if I could figure out how to have that file in a 2nd window, so I could directly compare, but I don't know how to do that. But just to be able to look at the file at all will be a big help.

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15 Feb 98 - 11:38 AM (#21473)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

I found I made another error above, on Feb. 4. Henrik Norbeck plays timber flute, tinwhistle and bodhran, and he sings, but he is not a fiddler. He is very good at identifying others Irish and Swedish tunes of unknown title.

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15 Feb 98 - 01:18 PM (#21484)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

I have been quite impressed by Craig Cockburn's scholarship (see my post of Feb. 11) on the Scots music list, so clicked onto his hompepage. (He goes right to the heart af any matter and quickly separates facts from speculation and makes sense of it.)

www.smo.uhi.ac.uk/~craig

Lots on Scots Gaelic (much in English) and even midis of Scots Gaelic tunes that will play if you have your sound card set up for internet. Some of his links are very good too.

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18 Feb 98 - 12:56 AM (#21642)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: leprechaun

This thread has been so much fun; we just can't let it fade away.

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20 Feb 98 - 06:48 PM (#21882)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: JJ

Mr Mulligan is not strictly correct in saying that Mo Ghile Mear is not allegorical. Bonny Prince Charlie, the eponymous Swift Hero, was seen as the savior of what could loosely be called Dalriada - the Scots/Irish hegemony.

Mo Ghile Mear is one of a host of songs looking to the hero who will come from overseas and save Ireland (and Scotland) from the invader.

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20 Feb 98 - 09:06 PM (#21895)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Dan Mulligan

Well.....Ok, I guess. I was saying though that Mo Gille Mear is not an allegorical name for Ireland , and it isn't. It was being compared to " Roisin Dubh," and "Four Green Fields." Not really the same kind of song.The song is an Irish Jacobite song written in honour of Charles Stewart, by Sean Clarach MacDomnail.

Dan Mulligan

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21 Feb 98 - 11:52 AM (#21925)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: casey

Let's see if I have this right. Mo Gille Mear is an allegorical song without an allegorical title?

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21 Feb 98 - 12:26 PM (#21926)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: Bruce O.

It's the songs that are allegorical, not the titles. I've run into a Scots song in in MSS of c 1705-25 which is an allegory about the pretender to the English throne at the time (Bonny Price Charlie's father or grandfather?). Whoever he was, in the songs he is a the "Gaberlunzie man" (beggar man). There is another about the same time where he is 'The Highland Laddie".

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31 Oct 02 - 02:58 AM (#814986)
Subject: RE: Celtic Music
From: GUEST,Margaret Burgstaller

This is a message for Alice in Montana.

I am a soprano and harpist and have been listening to a lovely CD of Mary O'Hara, on which she sings Roisin Dubh and Scent of the Roses.

I wonder if you might have the music for these and also for The Shortcut to the Rosses ?

It is nigh impossible to get these in Australia, so as my blood is Emerald Green, I should be most grateful if you or another friend could help me, or give me an address which I might be able to obtain the music.

Thanks and Best Wishes

Margaret

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