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14 Jul 01 - 06:02 AM (#506272) Subject: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Ian HP Here's a Press Release for the EFDSS day of action about the UK's ridiculous live music licensing laws. Please get involved if you can. The web link for those who want to get involved is http://www.efdss.org/livemusi.htm LIVE MUSIC SOS - Day of Action (Thursday 19th July 2001) Did you know that live music is barred from 95% of licensed premises? Few people realise that it is a criminal offence (for the proprietor) if more than two musicians play together in licensed premises. This is known to musicians as the 'two-in-a-bar rule'. Licensees who allow an acoustic folk session - for example, a jazz trio or string quartet - face fines of up to £20,000 and six months in prison. Local authorities, particularly in London, rigorously enforce the letter of the law. They also argue that case law from 1793 means that members of the public count as 'performers' if they join in! The Government's proposed licensing reforms that would have allowed many more pubs, bars and restaurants to put on live events were dropped from the Queen's Speech. It could now be years before any change in this area of the law. On Thursday 19th July The English Folk Dance and Song Society, with the endorsement of the Musicians Union, will back a Musicians' Day of Action, drawing attention to the draconian regulations that restrict live music in the UK. Musicians believe that local authorities are riding roughshod over their human rights. Freedom of expression, covered by the Human Rights Act, applies to public performances, where there are no noise or safety issues. Local authorities should not interfere. Musicians in New York used this argument to overturn very similar laws there in 1988. To have more than two musicians, a special permit called a public entertainment licence (PEL) must be bought from the local authority. But PELs are often expensive and subject to onerous conditions. Combined with heavy-handed local authority enforcement, this means that now only 5% of licensed premises hold annual PELs. The Government issued an official warning to local authorities last year not to impose 'excessive' conditions on licensees, and that over-charging for PELs could be breaking the law. But to no effect. The same law outlaws dancing, but permits any amount of canned entertainment, 'recorded sound' or satellite TV. It is also illegal to combine live and 'recorded sound', and local authorities have successfully prosecuted landlords who allowed one musician to use backing tapes or minidiscs. Even Karaoke is illegal without a PEL. It shocked the EFDSS to find that even organising a traditional musical event (in an unlicensed venue) in Britain could land them in prison for six months! These rules are having a devastating effect - particularly on local folk clubs, many of whom have had to close, owing to enforcement by local councils. And hundreds of young jazz musicians, graduates of the new conservatoire jazz courses, cannot develop their art... This is a situation which cannot go on, says Rupert Redesdale, Development Officer of EFDSS: "We really believe these laws are killing traditional music." From 12.00 noon to 5 p.m. on Thursday 19 July, groups of roving musicians will visit participating pubs and bars in the London area. Musicians of all kinds will take part, using no amplification. They will first ask licensees if they can perform. In accordance with the letter of the law, they will be politely told not to play, even for their own amusement. Of course, a performance by just two musicians is allowed or bands can play a recording of a performance (provided they don't mime that might be construed as dancing!). Please join us for a Media Briefing Meeting along the way, in the cellar bar of the Red Lion, Whitehall at 2.00 p.m. (It is likely that trumpeter Lord Colwyn, Chair of the Parliamentary Jazz Group will be thrown out and barred from the Red Lion for attempting to play jazz.). Thereafter, at approx. 2.30 p.m., we will proceed to Downing Street - for a performance outside Number 10. For more information, call Tim Walker at The English Folk Dance & Song Society, on 020 7284 0534, Rupert Redesdale on 07880 600133 (Tim's email address is tim.walker@efdss.org) or call Ray Hodges or Steve Barrett at HPS-Public Relations on 01494 684353 or 684314.
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14 Jul 01 - 06:25 AM (#506279) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Kara Well this is just why I moved to France. And what with today being Bastille Day, There will be music played allover the country, and bars will be open until they feel like closing, if indead they do. But none of this was acheived with out cutting the King and Queens heads off, so you just have to decide where you priorities lie. Basicaaly I found that the laws inEnglandare made so that if a group of more that 3 people want to do anything, a law is passed to stop it. Here in France if you can get a group of people who want to do something, you form an assosiation and the gouvernment gives you a grant to get aon with it. |
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14 Jul 01 - 07:57 AM (#506303) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: GUEST,Knappo IanHP, I can't hardly belive they would make a law like that. Wish I could be there to march with guitar, flute, sax in hand to lend support but the "pond" is a bit too wide and I have but a small boat. Good luck! PLAY LOUD AND PROUD AND SCARE THE SHIT OUT OF 'EM!!! Tom Let us know how it goes. |
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14 Jul 01 - 08:28 AM (#506311) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Malcolm Douglas The point is that they haven't made such a law; it's a very old one which really should be allowed to fall into disuse, as so many have; the main problem is that the law is, in some parts of the country, being enforced inappropriately. From the point of view of Government, it's a small and unimportant thing, not worth devoting parliamentary time to; what we have to do is make it clear that they are mistaken in this assumption. Of course, it isn't anything at all to do with having, or not having, a monarchy; the issue is historical rather than constitutional. The last time we chopped a king's head off, it didn't make a great deal of difference. |
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14 Jul 01 - 10:12 AM (#506355) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Lanfranc "The law is a ass, a idiot!" "Ignorantia legis haud excusat" (Ignorance of the law is no excuse). Labor Novum omnia ruit! ( New Labour F***s up everything ) I'd be there - but on a Thursday? Still, I'll see what can be done, I haven't felt so much like protesting about anything for years.
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14 Jul 01 - 10:33 AM (#506362) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Glad it isn't one which passed on into the Colonies! If we couldn't have musicians playing in the bars in Canada, it'd be such an awfully quiet place. Hmmmm...... |
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14 Jul 01 - 11:54 AM (#506399) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Clinton Hammond How the hell do they have the man-power to enforce this stupidity?!?!?! |
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14 Jul 01 - 11:58 AM (#506404) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Amos They recruit from the doles... |
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14 Jul 01 - 02:21 PM (#506479) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles See also Day of Action for live music 19th July. Thank you Ian. |
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14 Jul 01 - 02:24 PM (#506483) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles Also Council Bans Morris |
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15 Jul 01 - 03:19 AM (#506897) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: mouldy The above (Council bans Morris) seems to me to be related to the old South African ruling which says that more than 4 people gathered without prior permission from the police/relevant authority in a public place constitutes "Riotous Assembly". Jubilee Morris once got threatened with it, when they gathered to welcome Coventry Morris to SA, at Jan Smuts airport with a bit of a dance. After all, as a former colony, where did they get a lot of their laws from in the first place? - I was told yesterday of an old English law which shares a similar sentiment. Unfortunately, as I was on a Morris Day at the time, I can't remember any more than that!!!We ended up at a pub where we played inside the pub, then there was dancing of some sort both inside and outside the building (in the road). Andrea |
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15 Jul 01 - 08:53 AM (#506940) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: bill\sables It seems to me that it is not only the musicians who are having a raw deal with this situation. The landlords of pubs must also stand to make a loss. I think I can speak for the Jug when about 25% of the weeks custom is on a Wednesday mucic night, and on the Yorkshire Gathering weekend we went through 9 barrels of beer. I am sure also that if it were not for folkweek in Whitby the publicans would have a much harder winter. Would it not be an idea, therefore, to enlist the strength of the Licenced Victulers Association and even the breweries. Perhaps if they were on our side they could close the House of Commons bars till the issue is resolved in our favour, that would certainly provoke questions in the House. Cheers Bill |
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16 Jul 01 - 10:11 AM (#507602) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles I'll drink to that! |
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16 Jul 01 - 10:48 AM (#507629) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: sian, west wales I provide the secretariat for a Wales Rural Tourism Working Group so I've e-mailed the text of the Release to all members. Also to other select operatives ... I'll have to think what we can do locally ... hmmmm... sian |
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16 Jul 01 - 12:21 PM (#507703) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: GUEST,JohnB Good Luck Guys, give Em Sh1t from me too. I would not know 95% of the songs I know if this had been around in my formative days. We were Morris dancing and singing English folk songs in a pub in Tottenham Ontario last Wednesday. It seems bloody stupid that you can not do that in England where the Traditions Originated. JohnB |
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16 Jul 01 - 12:21 PM (#507704) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Naemanson Good luck and play your hearts out! I'm pulling for you! Please get that mess all cleared up before I come to visit. I want to hear and play music in a pub. |
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16 Jul 01 - 04:33 PM (#507953) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: McGrath of Harlow It's stupid law, but like a lot of stupid laws, most of the time they get ignored. And of course you should break stupid laws on principle, it's the only way they get eroded or changed. And until they get changed they can always suddenly get reactuivated uin an arbitrary and ioppressive way. (Which in itself means they are probably illegal under human rights provisions.) So it's important to get them changed.
However the main threat to live music in pubs isn't the law, it's canned music. Especially when it's the tape behind the bar, not even a juke box. Now a law banning that without a special licence, I could sympathise with that.
Still, I'd remind the liberty loving Americans that at least you can get a legal drink in a pub here from the age of 18, which I understand isn't true in all places, even when you are American royalty. (Mind there are times I think it'd be brilliant if they raised the drinking age here to 30 or 40...) ? Anyone going along to the London action on 19th? All my regular playmates are tied up with other things, it being a work day. |
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17 Jul 01 - 05:19 AM (#508387) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Cat's Whiskers RE: Stupid laws... Isn't there still one that states every London hackney carrage should carry a bale of straw...?? TCW |
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17 Jul 01 - 05:56 AM (#508397) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: GeorgeH While I agree with you about breaking stupid laws, McGrath, the problem with this one is that we have the fun but the landlord takes the (rather hefty) risk . . The plans for the "day of action" made a good job of taking this into account . . Sadly I guess I'll be at work on Thursday - but good luck to those who can participate . . G. |
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17 Jul 01 - 07:32 AM (#508432) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: McGrath of Harlow Yeah, but it's only a risk if there's been a complaint, and the landlord's been warned about it, and persists, which most times never arises. It's a lot less than the risk involved in having a lock-in, which all good landlords seem to do from time to time.
If musicians told to stop playing in a pub moved outside and played on the pavement or whatsoever, I can't see that the landlord could be held responsible. I suppose if hey took their drink is outside a case could be made against him for serving them, going against his licence renewal, so we mighthave to play thirsty for a bit. But apart from that any law-breaking would be just down to the musicians. |
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17 Jul 01 - 08:02 AM (#508442) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Steveie1 The 19th Acoustic Music Club in Elie - Fife meet on Thursday. I will make sure we all sing a song to make the point. Could this be construed as Direct Action? |
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17 Jul 01 - 08:43 AM (#508471) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: GeorgeH Sorry to get picky here McGrath - but that ain't so . . There are many documented instances of landlords having been told that they need a Public Performance Licence to continue having Music in their pubs. In some cases the Licencing Authority has acknowledged that they were acting without any complaint being received. A number of folk clubs have closed as a result. As for lock-ins - clearly there are few "good" landlords, then (but round here the music and the lock-ins may coincide but only alegedly, of course). Your "take it outside" suggestion is true only if the musicians go far enough outside to be off the pub's property . . as evidenced in the recent "Council bans morris dancing" thread. And in any case that's then different laws that would be likely to be applied . . G. |
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01 Sep 01 - 09:37 AM (#539599) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Roger in Sheffield It would be a real help if anyone could email a reply to letters@dorsetecho.co.uk in response to the letter from Ian Locke (30th Aug) reproduced in this thread just scroll down a bit |
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01 Sep 01 - 10:39 PM (#539982) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Barry Finn What happens when there's a large music festival does the council close their eyes & ears? I can't imagine a festival when their's no sessions (I'm not at all familar with UK festivals, hopefully some day I can change that). Barry |
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02 Sep 01 - 02:18 AM (#540061) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles There are two types. One that takes place mainly on an enclosed site which will be licensed, and one that takes place in a town, using pubs and other public buildings.
Fringe events like session occur and it would be fair to say that where many of the venues (official and unofficial) may have PELs, the councils (on the day)usually don't try to hard to be difficult.
Many of these are actually organised by some councils. They vary. Our council does not understand much about folk music, others do......... |
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05 Sep 01 - 02:02 PM (#542683) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Roger in Sheffield any letters in the Echo? |
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05 Sep 01 - 02:53 PM (#542720) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles Hamish Birchill's letter appeared today 5th September.
It was an answer to Mr Locke's. I will see if I put it here... Watch this space. |
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05 Sep 01 - 02:54 PM (#542721) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles Hamish Birchall's letter appeared today 5th September.
It was an answer to Mr Locke's. I will see if I put it here... Watch this space. |
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05 Sep 01 - 06:40 PM (#542887) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles Spot the difference.... There is one. |
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05 Sep 01 - 07:11 PM (#542912) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: McGrath of Harlow I've found this site FAX Your MP, and I've just send him this letter which should be in his in-tray tomorrow. I suggest other people do this. It only takes the time to write the letter, and doesn't even cost a postage stamp. Dear Bill Rammell I am writing to ask you to do what you can to end the situation in which the law discriminates against people who wish to meet and make music or sing in public places, such as cafes or public houses, by requiring that Public Entertainment Licences should be obtained.
Traditionally this kind of social activity has always happened, folk musicians meeting for sessions, Trad jazz played in the bar, singing round the piano. This has rightly been recognised in practice as a form of social activity, no different in principle from people playing darts matches or talking about football when they meet together.
However many councils appear to be interpreting their obligations under the 1982 Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act as requiring that they treat people taking part in such activities as taking part in a public entertainment performance. This means a PEL must be obtained.
In the case of public houses there is an exemption, if there are only two performers. This means that if a third person joins in singing the chorus, for example, the exemption ceases to apply. In the case of anybody singing or playing in any other public place, such as a cafe, there is no exemption even for a single \"performer\".
This is clearly absurd, and is also in clear breach of Section 10 of the Human Rights Act, which guarantees our right to expression.
Like many absurd laws its impact is mitigated by the fact that sensible local authorities apply them with discretion. However this does not always apply, and there have been a number of recent cases where the law has been applied in a way that has been oppressive.
I enjoy taking part in a number of such folk music sessions in pubs within the surrounding area. One of them was a monthly session in the Welsh Harp in Waltham Abbey, next to the Abbey Church. It was, rather unusually, devoted primarily to English tunes (rather than Irish or Scots or American etc - though in practice all kinds of music would end up being played). We played the music, quite a few of the regulars tended to sit over by the TV and watch the match. We were there primarily to entertain each other, not to entertain an audience, and we were not paid.
However this session ceased a few month ago, because the local council insisted that it could not continue without a Public Entertainment Licence being obtained. In common with 95% of pubs in this country, the Welsh Harp did not have such a licence. Reasonably enough the landlord did not see it worth while to go to the trouble and not insignificant expense involved in obtaining one, just for out benefit.
This is just an example which happens to have happened locally. Elsewhere in the country there have been cases where a publican was fined for allowing people to join in singing happy birthday when the two exempted performers struck up the tune. In Weymouth when a pub obtained a PEL it prohibited it from allowing Morris Dancers to perform there except on one day.
For far more information about this than I can give you here, I suggest that you have a look through this web site about \"Session Harassment\" - http://www.freenetpages.co.uk/hp/trg/SCoFF/session.htm#july2001 or this one by the Campaign for Live Music, http://www.tradmusic.net/calm.html
There are many other injustices in the world which are more pressing. But it does represent a real injustice, and is stops people enjoying themselves in a harmless and beneficial activity.
Moreover, since the issue is now fairly actively discussed, especially among people who value folk music and traditional music and dance, both in this country and abroad, and it is also starting to affect tourism, and I anticipate that this could rapidly mushroom.
Through the Internet I know that Americans who enjoy folk music are starting to cross England off their list for holidays. After all, this kind of restriction doesn\'t exist in many other countries, and would not be tolerated. And people have said that going to a country where this kind of restriction is in existence is distasteful in itself.
Moreover this whole thing is damaging to our dignity as a nation, and to our ability to preserve and regenerate our popular traditions. It is cultural vandalism. And it seems that nobody in politics cares about it.
Yours sincerely,
Kevin McGrath
I'll let you know if anything comes of it. |
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05 Sep 01 - 07:30 PM (#542925) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles That is a good site Kevin, thanks. it make the whole process very simple and has some good information too. Good letter too. My turn to be pedantic, it is Article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights. |
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05 Sep 01 - 08:13 PM (#542962) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: McGrath of Harlow Spotted the deliberate mistake to make sure you were concentrating...
No, accidental mistake I'm afraid, though I knew that really.. But it's in the Schedule to the Act as Section 10 anyway. (It's all in Trevor Gilsen's excellent site on Session Harassment.) Any sign of that legal article Richard Bridge was getting hold of? |
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06 Sep 01 - 11:55 AM (#543453) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Dave the Gnome The PEL isn't the only issue either - There is also the PRS. We have just been 'hit' for 500 quids worth of PRS 'license' which, unless we can manage to raise it from increased door charges, will close our club. Does anyone else find it strange that an organisation who's motto is 'Keep music live' could do so much towards closing live venues? Whereas the PEL is at least on the 'statute books' the PRS are a self appointed body apparantly dedicated to taking money from poor clubs and giving it to rich copyright owners like Paul McCartney and Michael Jackson. A sort of modern day Robin Hood in reverse! Ah well - of my chest now. Cheers Dave the Gnome |
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06 Sep 01 - 04:46 PM (#543745) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Roger in Sheffield The last reply I received after emailing Tom Grainger is the one below. I think your email is based on a false premise. The issue has never been that the Thursday sessions themselves make too much noise or pose a threat to health & safety. The test for whether a PEL is needed is only does entertainment take place. If so, and unless there is a specific exemption, eg less than 3 people performing, a PEL is needed. It is not a matter of Council policy. The circumstances in which the entertainment takes place at the Cove, ie almost every week, means we have no discretion.
It is for this reason I have suggested to various people that we would be better seeking evidence to show the law is having an unfortunate and unintended side effect. I have no wish for anyone to be 'shopped', although I would hope all licensees would operate within the law. What I would be interested to hear of is any landlord who has stopped allowing sessions to be held, because of the need for a PEL.
Thank you for taking the time to answer my questions, Would you mind if I published your replies? |
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06 Sep 01 - 06:21 PM (#543847) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: McGrath of Harlow re Dave the Gnome's last post. Surely it's the Musicians Union that has the motto is 'Keep music live'? And it seems to live up to it, and is sympoatetoc be supportive in such matters.
The PRS motto is 'Helping Music Grow' - which of course is often the last thing it does. And it's a regsutered Charity at that!
The PRS thing is a separate issue, and an important one at that. Maybe a separate thread about it would be a better way to try to open it up - this PEL stuff is quite complicated enough. |
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06 Sep 01 - 06:32 PM (#543857) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Gareth Sorry I'am a bit knakkered tonite but with luck the Doreset Echo letters page will be on the net by Saturday Noon. BTW I'am having a beer or two with our MP tomorrow night - watch this space. Gareth |
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07 Sep 01 - 10:15 AM (#544442) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Dave the Gnome Sorry Kevin - you are quite right. Funnily enough I saw an MU sticker on a guitar case last night and thought "Oh bugger - wrong again!" Don't know what sympoatetoc is though. The cats eaten the dictionary...;-) I am about to raise the PRS issue on a seperate thread as suggested as well - good idea. Cheers DtG |
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07 Sep 01 - 11:25 AM (#544475) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Roger in Sheffield Today's reply from TG I can't see any disagreement or inconsistency in my reply with Ian Locke's recent letter. As I recall Ian was pointing out that the reasons for PELs (ie the justification for the legislation) was primarily health& saftey/ noise. (Indeed I referred to this in a previous email). What I have said is that irrespective of whether we believe there are particular Health & safety or noise concerns with a particular premise, the trigger for a requirement for a PEL is the taking place of entertainment. By itself, that doesn't make a PEL inappropriate. Thank you for asking for agreement to publish my replies. I have no objections. After all I think our aims are similar - to ensure musicians interests are not unreasonably curtailed |
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07 Sep 01 - 01:16 PM (#544561) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles SIGH! |
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08 Sep 01 - 12:01 AM (#544973) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: GUEST,^gargoyle Thank you Mr. sheffield: I have written a "hard-copy" (aka typed) express international delivery letter.
This is my second responce to "Your Situation" if...you had not renewed the thread I would not have been aware of omitting a key argument in favor of enforcment of "the letter-of-thelaw."
Sincerely,
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08 Sep 01 - 03:23 AM (#545029) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Roger in Sheffield I would like to read your point of view Mr G Over here Torys hate wasteful public spending so I think in the main they would want the legislation changed, I don't think many taxpayers would see stopping a few people singing as a valuable public service hope you remembered to put your name on that letter, they might not take Gargoyle seriously |
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08 Sep 01 - 06:31 AM (#545073) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles Is there anyone who can explain to me, what exactly Mr Grainger was trying to say, in his last reply to Roger (in Sheffield), above?
I would be most grateful, if you could?
"After all I think our aims are similar - to ensure musicians interests are not unreasonably curtailed"
This is from the Chief Executive of the council who has "cutailed" musicians and the public's interests and threatened legal action against a licensee for holding a session.
Where they now admit that this presented no noise of safety concerns.
And he continues to justify this action????????????? PLEASE HELP! |
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08 Sep 01 - 06:45 AM (#545074) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Gareth Shambles - little known aspect of UK public administration. You can ask to see letters, petitions etc. submitted to a council on planning and licencing matters. This might be an opportunity to unmask the gargoyle, which would be a nice return favour to Mudcatters. Gareth |
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08 Sep 01 - 07:01 AM (#545078) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles Weymouth and Portland Borough Council
Copied to the local paper. letters@dorsetecho.co.uk
To all UK Folkies who may (understandably) not wish their own councils to pay their events, the same attention and are reluctant to get involved.
Would you please join with the many UK folkies who have, and in particlar with those overseas to help win this BATTLE here in Weymouth and Portland?
We did not choose to fight this battle but we cannot afford to loose it.
A victory here will ensure that a clear signal will go out to all local authorities and make it impossible for similar action to ever take place again.
We have lost too many fine events already and cannot afford to loose here, as this will mean that the situation will continue..........THERE WILL NEVER BE A BETTER OPPORTUNITY TO CHANGE THIS AND SEND A VERY CLEAR MESSAGE.
The message that they are currently receiving is that they can do exactly as they please and the vast majority of people, UK folkies, directly affected and who should care, do not care enough to stop them........... PLEASE HELP! |
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08 Sep 01 - 07:54 AM (#545100) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Gareth The letters pages of the Dorset Echo are repruduced on the WEB The JPG's take some time to load so I have now slipt then onto different pages. Gareth |
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09 Sep 01 - 05:32 AM (#545547) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Roger in Sheffield Shambles I think the Chief Executive would like this resolved too. There is legislation to implement, his council does so. We have to get the politicians to remove the legislation and see the benefits of local sessions. We can't do it alone though. |
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09 Sep 01 - 06:49 AM (#545559) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles Roger
Are you now conviced by his arguments? With the greatest of respect. There have always been two strands to this. Legislation and the interpretation of it.
What ever the new legislation may be, it will still be local authorities that will enforce it, as they see it locally. We have to force them to change their age-old attitudes if the new is not to be worse than the old.
Mr Grainger has it in his power to change their interpretation locally, NOW.
He chooses to do nothing, and claim that it does not threaten local traditional events, the nature of which he still does not understand and HIDE behind and blame the legislation. Please don't swallow this line?
It matters not and I don't really care what his personal view is, and I think having tried to reason with him face to face, I know what that is.
They have done all this, without the slightest concern for the effect for the things we love. Of course he wants it resolved NOW. For thanks to all of our efforts, they are now exposed and out in the open.
If he seriously wants it resovled, it is in his power now.
We just have to keep them there in the spotlight, still attempting to justify what cannot be justified. The prevention of the Human Right of freedom of expression, where there are no (safety, as they have now admitted) grounds to do so |
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09 Sep 01 - 09:14 AM (#545596) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Roger in Sheffield To politicians and councillors sessions are invisible The best way to explain something they cannot understand is to show them what these sessions are .........but do we trust them enough to see sense or will they demand to see the landlords PEL on the spot? My MP is supposed to be following this matter up and it should be the easiest thing in the world to take him along to a session and let him see the light - but would the landlord and session members ever talk to me again for revealing their 'secret' session? As for TG I think he is unwilling to back down on this but very willing for us to get the legislation changed If you have any short questions that I can put to him I will be happy to do so, he doesn't seem to answer everything though, so perhaps just one important point at a time so he can't (hopefully)avoid it I am not sure he has ever admitted if the legislation is open to interpretation, do we have any concrete evidence that it is, something he can't dispute Roger |
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09 Sep 01 - 09:14 AM (#545597) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: kendall I wonder what the Magna Carta would look like with a Bill of Rights attached? |
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09 Sep 01 - 09:16 AM (#545598) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Gareth At the risk of boreing catters to tears the problems of interpretation of the Public Entertainment Licencese have now attracted the attention of "Stage" weekly news paper. All press coverage can be found here. Iam sorry if they take a little time to load but much of this is JPG files. Gareth |
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09 Sep 01 - 09:26 AM (#545604) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Roger in Sheffield Gareth every time I tried to look at one of your links recently IE crashed, lets see if this one does |
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09 Sep 01 - 12:16 PM (#545685) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles I just tried all the links and they all worked.
The latest Stage article, containing the council's defence of its policy, is a laugh. We must all be careful not to drop down dead in a pub without a PEL.
"I am not sure he has ever admitted if the legislation is open to interpretation, do we have any concrete evidence that it is, something he can't dispute
If Mr Grainger can dispute the Government Minister's answer to the specific question about 'members of the public as performers' given to The Lord Bishop of Oxford, in The House of Lords, I fail to see anything that he will not dispute.
The Lord Bishop of Oxford asked Her Majesty's Government:
Roger |
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09 Sep 01 - 12:39 PM (#545696) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Roger in Sheffield Gareths links work fine for me in Netscape but not IE5.5 My IE program could be corrupted I suppose Thanks Shambles but I see the answer being along the lines of - these are discussions in the house of Lords and not legislation.... Is it about time to open this up to larger media and write letters to the Guardian asking for the political parties to state their views on this obsurd legisation and its unforseen outcome? |
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09 Sep 01 - 02:05 PM (#545748) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles Thanks Shambles but I see the answer being along the lines of - these are discussions in the house of Lords and not legislation.
Legislation must be discussed in the House of Lords before it become legislation.
The highly paid civil servants that prepared the brief for the Parimentary Under-Secretary of State, Home Office Lord Bassam's answer on behalf of HM Government in the Lord's Entertainment debate, will I am sure be most impressed that their efforts are dismissed so lightly, by my Borough Council's employees.
I would not rate my chances of winning an argument with a Ministerial reply in The House of Lords. Mr Grainger and Mr Locke are welcome to try. If they wish to, perhaps we should just let them?
Who would you place your money on? This is all nonsense anyway and WPBC know it. Public Entertainment Licensing is a Local Government Miscellanous Provision. By definition a provision for local goverment to decide. The 'buck' has been passed with some eagerness to Mr Grainger and Mr Locke. Their attempts to pass it back again, may be understandable but futile. |
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09 Sep 01 - 02:15 PM (#545757) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles RESOLVED:-
That the Committee confirms that the steps take by the Licensing Manager to encourage an application from the proprietor of the Cove House Inn, Portland for a licence permitting public entertainment on the premises were appropriate and justified.
That consultation take place with local musicians regarding the law as it stands at present and what amendments could usefully be made, and that these views be collated and passed to the Government. The above summary of the minutes of the 5th June, make it clear that it was the councillors that insisted that some constructive measure was attempted....Little as it may be, it is not Mr Grainger's inititive at all........ |
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09 Sep 01 - 02:18 PM (#545759) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles The fact that The Local Cultural Strategy already exists for this consultation and the members seemed unaware of it, speaks volumes. |
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09 Sep 01 - 06:15 PM (#545847) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Gareth Never - Ever asumne that because there is a statutary duty your local Jobsworth's will understand 1/ That they have to do it ! or 2/. That they know how to do it !! Gareth |
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09 Sep 01 - 07:41 PM (#545874) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: McGrath of Harlow This weekedn I was talking to someone at Walton Folk Festival, after singing my song about this. I was told that one place where they are coming doiwn hard on this is Thanet in Kent. I haven't got details, but it shouldn't be hard to find someone who can report what's happening there.
Then, local to us, there was the session of English Tunes in The Welsh Harp in Waltham Abbey, which had to close because of this.
So if people could came up with more examples like that, that'd be useful.
Also, of course, any examples where a District or Borough Council (it's not County Councils involved in this I understand)is willing to say that the reason they aren't interfering is because they have decided they don't see this as covered by the term "public entertainment", rather than just because, not being stupid, they turn a blind eye. |
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10 Sep 01 - 01:05 PM (#546376) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles Feedback on The Stage articles will be welcomed
Letters Editor
Or people can e-mail editorial_listings@thestage.co.uk feedback would be great! |
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10 Sep 01 - 03:08 PM (#546495) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles The comments on Gareths site containing the press coverage, are completely untrue. In the picture on the Guardian article, you cannot see my bells.........
I have not worn bells since the days of my 'hippie' youth. Thanks Gareth for your hard work. |
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10 Sep 01 - 07:16 PM (#546645) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Gareth Rest assured Shambles, I will remove your balls, oops I mean bells. Gareth |
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11 Sep 01 - 02:20 AM (#546804) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles OUCH! |
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11 Sep 01 - 02:22 AM (#546805) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles The council have already taken those......... |
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11 Sep 01 - 02:29 AM (#546807) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles I am surprised to find the council are still sending out 'standard reply No 1'.
Which still says the pub is happy and it is only one musician who has complained. How can they still send this to all who complain telling them this? |
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12 Sep 01 - 06:26 PM (#548420) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Gareth More press coverage - or at least updated ! Gareth |
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12 Sep 01 - 06:31 PM (#548422) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: Gareth Sorry error Above, it was late and I am tired. More Press Coverage Gareth |
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13 Oct 01 - 05:48 AM (#571124) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles Given all the problems presented to sessions and gigs by law and council authorities in England, The following is incredibly the way things are in Scotland....
(source: Donald McLeod, Licensing Solicitor, Aberdeen council):
In Aberdeen alone there are about 300 public houses, hotels and restaurants. A band could walk into any of these premises and play without any problem. The number of musicians is not an issue. The licensee does not have to do anything - he is not committing any offence, nor does he have to pay anything to the local authority.
Venues like nightclubs or theatres these are more closely regulated, usually requiring a Civic Public Entertainment Licence (Civic Government (Scotland) Act 1982) which imposes additional public safety conditions.
I am quite sure that this extraordinary difference has legal implications. Scotland's live music laws are rational, and the country is actively implementing Article 27.1 of the Universal Declaration; but the equivalent law and enforcement in England/Wales is irrational (prevents live music where there are no noise or safety concerns), and actively opposes Article 27. The difference dates from about 1982 (there was a radical overhaul in Scottish licensing in 1976, but the full effects did not come into force until '82).
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13 Oct 01 - 06:03 AM (#571127) Subject: RE: All UK folkies take note - the law!!! From: The Shambles The latest from Mr Locke and the 'council's legal position'. 8th October 2001
THE COVE HOUSE INN, PORTLAND
The Chief Executive has asked me to respond to your e-mail dated 13th September 2001. At the same time I am taking this opportunity to restate the Authority's legal position as regards the requirement to hold a Licence to provide public entertainment as it applies to folk music sessions at the Cove House Inn, Portland.
Licensing of Public Entertainment
As you know the general rule that public entertainment cannot be provided without a Licence is contained in Schedule 1 Paragraph 1 of the Local Government (Miscellaneous Provisions) Act 1982.
For the purposes of the Act the term entertainment applies to 'public dancing or music or any other public entertainment of a like kind'
The Exemptions
The Act contains a number of exemptions which have no application to folk music sessions. More relevant however are the exemptions contained in Section 182 of the Licensing Act 1964 for public entertainment by way of music and singing only which is provided … 'by not more than two performers …'. The Licensing Act does not offer a definition of performer.
Folk musicians at the Cove House Inn have not claimed the Section 182 exemption since they acknowledge that more than two musicians have been involved in the music sessions in question.
It appears to me that the logical conclusion of your argument that folk musicians involved in jam sessions are not 'performers' is that the Section 182 exemption available for "not more than two performers" has no application to their music making which leaves us with the general rule that a Public Entertainment Licence is required.
Case Law
The legal principles that (I) a licence is required for public entertainment provided not only by paid performers but by individuals for their own amusement and (ii) that whether or not a charge is made for admission is immaterial were established in Clarke –v- Searle and Gregory –v- Tuffs (Tuss), respectively. Although both decisions considered statute which predates current legislation and on the facts dealt with public dancing I consider that they are of general application to public entertainment law, not just public dancing, and that they offer useful guidance for the folk music sessions in question.
The legal section has considered the case of Brearley –v- Morley to which, as I recall, you also made reference in your presentation to the Council's Social/Community Committee. The facts of this particular case were that a man was playing the piano in a public room in licensed premises as accompaniment for another man singing a song. A number of other men were sat around talking and listening. All were customers and received no remuneration for the entertainment. In this appeal case the Court found that the Licensee had not kept or used the room for public entertainment since piano playing or singing by customers was "for the purpose of solacing themselves with music".
The Council's Position
Where it comes to the attention of the Council that public entertainment is being provided without the benefit of a Public Entertainment Licence on anything more than a one off, accidental basis the Council will intervene to explain and if necessary to enforce licensing legislation. Having made extensive enquiries we have not identified any other Authority whose position differs from our own. In the context of activities at the Cove House Inn I consider that the action taken by this authority has been lawful, justified and proportionate. In the absence of a fresh judicial decision or a change in primary legislation this sets the Council's legal position on the point. I must make clear that I am unable to enter into any further discussion on the legal arguments and questions as to the Licence itself must now be a matter between the Council and the Licensee.
I would however be pleased to hear further from you with any evidence you have concerning the impact of the legislation on live music in the Borough so that any representations which may be appropriate can be made to the Local Government Association inviting modernisation of licensing laws.
Ian Locke |