|
16 Jul 01 - 10:05 PM (#508209) Subject: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: toadfrog Piece today appearing in the Wall Street Journal, beginning at page 1, Col. 1. Sorry I do not subscribe to the online service and cannot provide a clickie. Being only a very moderate "leftie," I had not taken too tragically the accounts of convict labor in post civil war South. This sets me straight. The story describes in great detail, from contemporary documents, the use of leased convict labor in coal mines. As in "Cold Creek Rebellion," only in Alabama, not Tennessee. As perpetrated by United States Steel, apparently in violation of instructions by Judge Gary after they purchased a mine from Tennessee Coal around 1910. Leasing convicts being lucrative and a source of revenue to the state, blacks were arrested and convicted of extremely minor offenses, and then made to serve long terms to pay off the cost of their arrest and conviction. Conditions of confinement are described in chilling detail. I won't describe them here, except that the best you can say about them is that they probably compare favorably to some of the worse Nazi concentration camps. No sanitation, and a low survival rate. Employers granted the privilege of flogging or even shooting convicts. Large fields of unmarked graves. Workers kept underground for months. One's impression from the article is that there was probably nothing quite that bad elsewhere in the South, because most of the mining and industry were in Alabama. Of course, no one has researched the rest of the South. U.S. Steel has responded that it "was a positive player in this history . . . was a force for good." |
|
16 Jul 01 - 11:13 PM (#508269) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: Sorcha You just now discovered this? Where have you been, Siberia? (sorry, no offense meant but I have known this for years) Apologies if necessary for the tone of my response, OK? |
|
17 Jul 01 - 12:06 AM (#508302) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: toadfrog Sorcha, no offense taken, but I really suspect you didn't "know" these things, in the sense of knowing hard facts as opposed to having a general belief that bad stuff happened. If I am doing you an injustice, then I apologize. |
|
17 Jul 01 - 12:13 AM (#508307) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: Sorcha OK, I guess we're even, grin. |
|
17 Jul 01 - 12:29 AM (#508315) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: toadfrog We all love you, Sorcha. |
|
17 Jul 01 - 11:48 AM (#508652) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: M.Ted The levee along the Mississippi, which is the largest man-mad structure in the world, was constructed with forced labor of various sorts, including convicts--The Parchman Farm, well known to blues lovers, was basically a forced labor camp--For first person accounts, see Alan Lomax's wonderful book, "The Land Where the Blues Began"-- The horrors of forced labor are an aspect of the racism in the South that were much discussed during the 60's and 60's Civil Rights movement, and, unfortunately, I guess the shock value has worn off, and stories like this don't get that much attention any more..thanks for letting us know about it, Toadfrog!! |
|
17 Jul 01 - 12:07 PM (#508674) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: SINSULL In the movie "Gone With The Wind" there is a scene showing Scarlett hiring convict labor and allowing the overseer to handle them his way. If I remember correctly, they were all white. The very clear message was that they would be worked to death and then replaced. |
|
17 Jul 01 - 02:26 PM (#508836) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: GUEST Oh Alberta, Berta... |
|
17 Jul 01 - 03:11 PM (#508871) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: Gareth Not confined to the US of A, British history overlooks the convicts deportd to slavery. Not just Australia, but to the American colonies, and the Wst Indies with particular emphasis on Barbados, Jamaica, and the Bahama's. Home grown too ! Chain Gangs working in quarries, and I believe on Roads, around Dartmoor were common. Anybody got other examples ? Gareth
|
|
17 Jul 01 - 03:27 PM (#508885) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Many white and aboriginal convicts were leased out also, in the west as well as the south in the States. Gareth is correct, it was widespread. Of course we get material only on English-speaking countries, no one pays any attention to the practice in the rest of the world. I remember German prisoners of war being put out to work on farms in Oklahoma in WW2, in a climate much hotter than they were used to. Is there any real point in bringing up old history? Unless someone can bring up some songs or chants relating to the practice, leave this material out of Mudcat. The person who started this thread is a troll and I bit. |
|
17 Jul 01 - 03:53 PM (#508898) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: Jack the Sailor I'm sorry Dicho, but I found teh discussion interesting. What do you mean by troll?? |
|
17 Jul 01 - 04:22 PM (#508926) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: SINSULL Some recent documentaries told the tale of British orphans and foster children (without parent's permission) shipped to Australia where they were forced to work for a variety of churches without pay. Conditions were brutal, sexual attacks common, food short, and the never ending message that they should be grateful for a roof over their heads. Similar stories of girls who were deemed incorrigible and sent to convents as slave labor. 18 hour work days doing laundry and household chores for the local towns under a strict rule of silence. The survivors interviewed were well into their 60s; some of them had just discovered that their parents were living. Some parents just hearing that their children were alive. Sad, cruel business somehow related to an attempt to populate Australia. Anyone have details? |
|
17 Jul 01 - 05:06 PM (#508968) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: GUEST,jack M Ted there has never been a racist from anywhere else but the south has there ?Particularly Alabama, right? |
|
17 Jul 01 - 05:33 PM (#508984) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: GUEST,Joe Thats right Jack and you and the rest take down your rebel flag though it might be a part of your and the states history |
|
17 Jul 01 - 06:14 PM (#509029) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: M.Ted Apparently, Jack, that all that some people care to think about. I didn't finish my comment, and I should--I grew up in an auto factory town in the North, and many of my childhood friends were from various parts of the South (both black and white)--there was an amazing predisposition among the literate, sophisticated, and allegedly liberal Northerners to assume that anyone with a drawl was ignorant, illiterate, and a racist, this was accompanied by a simultaneous belief that they themselves were free of prejudice, that racism was absent, and equality, and fairness were all around. Anyone with eyes to see knew different, of course, but denial is a tenacious creature-- Back in the 60's and 70's, many of us who had listened to and played rural and southern music would occasionally get a bit of self-righteous scolding for liking the music of "crackers and racists"--and often from people who were closet bigots themselves--complicated world we live in-- |
|
17 Jul 01 - 06:26 PM (#509040) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: Amergin Uh, Dicho, I fail to see your reasoning that toadfrog is a troll...he just posted some interesting information about US history....what is wrong with that? Why is history there,but to talk about and hopefully learn from it? Isn't history a part of what folk music is all about? Toadfrog, I hope that you do not take Dicho's attitude to be a reason not to post such things in the future... |
|
17 Jul 01 - 06:46 PM (#509060) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: GUEST,jack Joe, I don't own, have never owned a rebel flag, in fact my ancestors fought and died for the union-- 43rd Ohio Volunteer Infantry--That rebel flag has very little if anything to do with the ills blacks face in the USA today, and taking it down would accomplish nothing towards solving those ills.The U.S. flag flew for at least 80 + years before slavery was abolished-- many more years than the "rebel"flag flew-- Tell me,do you think it should be taken down as you say"though it might be a part of your and the states history"? jack
|
|
17 Jul 01 - 09:01 PM (#509157) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: GUEST,guest.scott The best folk music comes from Alabama! |
|
17 Jul 01 - 09:22 PM (#509173) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: Bill D when the Civil war ended, there was VERY quickly a shortage of cheap labor in the south....the practice of arresting people..('usually' blacks) on minor offenses and renting out the chain gangs became an important source of revenue...I saw a program that said the at one time, 1/3 of Alabama's budget was financed this way... this practice lasted much longer than many people realized. I worked in the Civil Rights movement and only recently heard the full story. |
|
17 Jul 01 - 09:24 PM (#509175) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: Bill D (oh...in Alabama, I believe, one man managed to get the contract for the state, and became VERY rich...he manipulated the system then with bribes and power to keep it going) |
|
17 Jul 01 - 09:38 PM (#509187) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: toadfrog Some points have been missed. (1) The practices described do relate to more than one song we are all familiar with. For examples, CLICK HERE and also HERE. As we all know, convicts working in the fields or on railroads sang. From the description in the WSJ, I doubt they sang much in the mines. (2) I think what Sorcha means is that we all know that convicts on chain gangs lived under extremely harsh conditions and worked from sunrise to sundown. Pretty bad, but the conditions described in the mines were a whole lot worse than that. I did not try too hard to convey that, because I don't enjoy writing that kind of prose. If you don't believe me, you may want to try the original article. (3) The article was not specifically intended as an indictment of the South, it was an indictment of United States Steel. If I wanted to draw a political conclusion about the modern world, it would be that prison labor is a bit suspect, and that private operation of prisons sucks. |
|
18 Jul 01 - 03:45 PM (#509801) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: Sandy Paton Another source of information regarding Parchman is a book titled "Worse Than Slavery," recently remaindered through Hamilton Books. Seems to me this convict history is definitely "song related," since we sing many songs from the region and the era, and it makes sense to me that we should make an effort to know whereof we sing. Listen to the great Vera Hall (recorded by Alan Lomax in Livingston, Alabama) singing "Another Man Done Gone" on either Rounder's "Deep River of Song - Alabama" or "Treasury of Library of Congress Field Recordings" compiled by Stephen Wade (Rounder 1500 - a splendid collection!). Sandy |
|
19 Jul 01 - 12:01 AM (#510131) Subject: RE: BS: Leased Convicts-Alabama From: Bob Bolton G'day SINSULL, You wrote about: " ... recent documentaries ... British orphans and foster children ... shipped to Australia ... to work for a variety of churches without pay. Conditions ... brutal, sexual attacks ... food short ... they should be grateful for a roof over their heads ... girls who were deemed incorrigible ... 18 hour work days doing laundry and household chores ... strict rule of silence ... some of them had just discovered that their parents were living ... somehow related to an attempt to populate Australia. Anyone have details? ..." I know this sort of thing happened - at its worst between the wars, but British Commonwealth migration programmes contained elements of this after WWII. I have no personal contacts with victims, although I knew people who experienced some of the more enlightened schemes. (Incidentally, English singer / folklorist A.L. Lloyd came to Australia as a young lad in the 1930s under such a Commonwealth migration/training scheme - obviously not one of the badly run ones ... or we would have heard a lot more about it! There was a joint ABC - BBC docu/film about some of the worst of these, 10 or 15 years back - and I set the vcr to record it, while I was playing music for a dance somewhere. I must admit I could not bring myself to watch all the way through the programme! Maybe I need to drag out the video cassette, dust it off and make myself view it right through! Regards, Bob Bolton |