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24 Jul 01 - 02:44 PM (#513609) Subject: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Rick Fielding Hmmmm, starting two threads in one day....MUST be too hot around here for other activities. Well one's about music at least, but this one....... Yeah, I often wonder about this. It's tricky, 'cause I've never been in the Military (and probably would have done anything NOT to have been), I'm generally anti-gun (but have seem my position waver a bit over the last few years) and have no use for sports hunting. Heather and I have discussed this many times, and we seem to both go against what most of our friends probably think. Our lack of belief in an "identifiable diety" may have something to do with it, as well. We both seem to feel that if "ordered to kill" by an authority, we'd be unable to do it, but that if we saw someone being mugged or assaulted, we could pull the trigger in a heartbeat (without remorse....we THINK). Going to jail then, would be the major deterrent...but NOT the actual taking of the life. I'll always wonder about this, and hope that any of my wacky theories are never tested. Rick |
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24 Jul 01 - 02:46 PM (#513615) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: wysiwyg How can one really know what one would do until one is actually IN the situation? ~S~ |
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24 Jul 01 - 02:57 PM (#513624) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: MMario I get squeamish about the lives of pets - but can and have put pets down - then bawled and shook for hours afterwards. I'm a devout coward - if cowardice was catholicism I'd be Pope! - yet have several times been in situations where anothers life was threatened and without even thinking intervened - putting myself at more risk rather then less. There are situations where I do not doubt I would, could and gleefully kill another human being. They are all situations I hope never ever to encounter...a few (very few) situations where I'd do it if I had to... but no, I never thought I could go out and shoot to kill under orders...in fact I doubt I'd have gotten through boot camp... |
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24 Jul 01 - 03:00 PM (#513626) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Paul Mitchell I'd do it for cash. ;-> Paul |
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24 Jul 01 - 03:00 PM (#513627) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Little Hawk Right, Susan. You have to be there to know. If I were to speculate...I imagine I might take a life if I was in a war situation or in some sudden emergency where I was attacked or saw someone else attacked in what I considered a wrongful way. One tends to act instinctively at such times. If carrying a gun, one is much more likely to kill than if grabbing a stick or resorting to one's bare hands, however. That's why guns are so dangerous to have around. I'd rather dissuade an attacker than kill him, all things considered. You never can tell what'll happen in life. - LH |
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24 Jul 01 - 03:06 PM (#513630) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: MMario not the situations I'm thinking of LH - if I was carrying a gun I'd probably forget to unholster it. I'm talking hands on smashing kicking glory in the destruction *D*E*A*T*H* ~ and since I have experienced the feeling of wanting to do this I'm torn between hopeing I never see the culprit again - and that I will come across him in a nice secluded place where I can make the walking turd suffer while I kill him slowly - very very slowly. Not something I like living with...but I also am not thrilled to belong to the same species as this guy. |
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24 Jul 01 - 03:09 PM (#513632) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: gnu mmmmmmm (the aggravated kind)... Self-defence or defence of innocents is an easy question to answer... you already have. As for your anti-gun : home invasions are on the rise in Canada since the storage laws were enacted. As for your anti-hunting (I know you only said YOU have no USE for it but it still sounds "that" way) : if you've never been hunting with a real hunter - not the clowns on TNN - or you use animal products, you have no vote as to whether I can hunt. |
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24 Jul 01 - 03:10 PM (#513633) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: JenEllen I deal with that (unwillingly) on a daily basis. I don't necessarily believe in the 'identifiable diety' but I do believe in doing good, and right, and that each life is worthy. We have a little bottle of 'pink stuff' in our pharmacy that when injected will send a critter to the great boneyard in the sky. The kicker is, you gotta inject it, you have to stare into eyes, and try not to cry because it fucks up your vision and you want a clean stick. And after a weekend full of hit-by-cars, "Fluffy is 18 and can't walk anymore", or "We found this squashed up bird", you walk past that freezer full of little corpses and know that YOU did that. I wouldn't wish it on anyone. I suppose for people it is the same thing. You can do what is right, but it's still the ones who live that carry the weight around. ~J |
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24 Jul 01 - 03:13 PM (#513636) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Clinton Hammond Gnu... he said 'sports hunting'... Me, I'd kill all of ya in a heart-beat!!! And then eat bits and pieces of the grain fed ones!! LOL!!!!!! |
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24 Jul 01 - 03:15 PM (#513642) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: mousethief Take a life, take a holiday.... |
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24 Jul 01 - 03:20 PM (#513647) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: CarolC I've had to assist with the euthanasia of quite a few animals, and I've performed one by myself. In almost all cases, it was an act of mercy and I was not troubled about it. In one case, the animal was very vibrant and alive and there was no reason to put it down except that the owners wanted it put down. I wasn't in a position to protest this situation and I had to hold the dog. This was a very troubling experience. As far as killing people is concerned, I don't know whether or not I could do it, and I hope I never have to find out. |
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24 Jul 01 - 03:24 PM (#513652) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: SharonA Take it where? :^) |
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24 Jul 01 - 03:27 PM (#513654) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Midchuck When my children were little, I would gladly have killed a multitude of people if those people intended them harm...with a flame thrower if I had one handy. And giggled the whole time. Peter. |
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24 Jul 01 - 03:27 PM (#513658) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: mousethief Take it where? Hither. And yon. Alex |
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24 Jul 01 - 03:34 PM (#513667) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: katlaughing My family, my pets, yes. Don't know in other circumstances, but it certainly brings up a dilemma, i.e. I don't own a gun, don't want to, so I guess the question is kind of moot, as I wouldn't be able to act on my instinct or desire, unless I had some other sort of weapon. Now, if we could all have, if we wanted, some sort of stun gun, something non-lethal, I'd feel a whole lot better about it all. kat
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24 Jul 01 - 03:37 PM (#513674) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Clinton Hammond Hither And Yon?? Didn't they used to play the pub circut in the mid 60's? |
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24 Jul 01 - 03:37 PM (#513675) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Jack the Sailor I'm not exactly sure why but your question made me think of the movie Die Hard. If some guy who was threatening the life of my wife and a group of other hostages and he was making me run over broken glass in my bare feet while he was shooting at me I would probably be able to kill him. But only if he had a German accent. **BG** It seems like a lot of movies spend quite a bit of time justifying the violence or at least portraying characters as bad so that the audience "wants" them to die. From what I've heard and read, it is seldom that clear cut. Even the worse people usually have people who love them and will miss them. To kill someone you have to ignore that fact. Interesting topic. It would probably make a good song. |
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24 Jul 01 - 03:41 PM (#513679) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: MMario Some creatures forfeit any and all rights, and make ignoring the faint possibility that someone somewhere sees good in them, or will miss them REAL easy. |
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24 Jul 01 - 03:42 PM (#513683) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: GUEST,petr its hard to say what people would do until they are in that situation, certainly people would not hesitate if they were defending a loved one. in a battle field situation - I read once that in the US civil war - that a large percentage of guns picked up (something like 80%) on the battlefield next to the dead were never fired. It seems that most people except for the 2% that are natural born killers have a built in mechanism that prevents them from killing other people. THe military is well aware of this, this is why the training program involves shooting at paper cutouts that pop up, aimed at making the response automatic as well as language that dehumanizes the enemy (ie. anti-personnel device, collateral damage etc or calling the enemy some other name ie. reds, gooks, bosch, etc.) Petr Ive had to put down a couple pets too and its hard although it really was the most humane thing to do. |
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24 Jul 01 - 03:42 PM (#513685) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Kim C In defense of myself or someone I love, absolutely. Under orders? Nah. That's why I'm not in the military. |
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24 Jul 01 - 03:51 PM (#513697) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Jack the Sailor I'd do telemarketers if there was a way to kill over the phone. |
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24 Jul 01 - 04:09 PM (#513710) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: GUEST,UB Dan I'd shoot a man in Reno just to watch him die...so would Johnny |
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24 Jul 01 - 04:37 PM (#513731) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Amos Somebody once told me to get a life, but no-one's offered me one to take, so now I just don't know WHAT to do!!! :>) There are circumstances where fundamental ethics override mores and other cultural agreements. I have never been in one, but I believe that if I were my ability to survive would rule in an instant. I would never put myself in that position knowingly; but if someone having made such a choice (to destroy me or my loved ones or even an innocent bystander) put themselves in that position I would play the cards where they lay. And I would live, heavy hearted, with the consequences of my own decision to do so. A |
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24 Jul 01 - 04:55 PM (#513747) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Mrrzy Hmmm. I wonder this every so often, usually over a Law nd Order or ER episode... I know that I swerve to avoid animals only if I think doing do will not cause an accident, so I have seemingly purposely run over various small beings, whereas I do avoid them if it's safe to do so. I've never had a human run out in front of my car, so that hasn't been tested. I grew up thinking of myself as a pretty rabid radical pacifist, but I've outgrown that. I've never been personally physically assaulted (the 2 times I've been punched, the puncher was aiming at someone else but too drunk to aim well), so I don't know how hard I'd fight back. When one of my sons was very slightly sexually abused, my concern was more for the 8-year old abuser (whom I thought was likely in some kind of real danger) than my son, who was not traumatized in the least, nor exposed to any dangerous fluids, but I don't know what I'd have done if it had been something awful at the, um, hands of an adult. But I like to think I'd be reasonable - not kill to avoid a punch in the mouth, but do whatever it takes to avoid the forcible rape of my child? And I have to admit that I have so little faith in the legal system that I don't think I'd take it into account in deciding what to do... |
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24 Jul 01 - 04:57 PM (#513748) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Ebbie Rick, you say you would have done "anything" in order to stay out of the military- would you have killed in order to avoid it? :) Ebbie |
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24 Jul 01 - 05:22 PM (#513762) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: M.Ted Through bad luck or bad judgement, people sometimes find themselves in a situation where a human life can be taken if they make a bad choice--I am particularly thinking about Keith Moon, whose car was surrounded by an unruly crowd, and, in trying to escape, killed a friend. It seems more likely that people will encounter situations like these--where the challenge is to avoid panicking and unwillingly taking a life, rather than the other situation-- |
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24 Jul 01 - 05:35 PM (#513770) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Gareth The who knows until they are faced with the decision. Some months ago my father died, it was more a release than a tragedy. His quality of life over the last few years was very poor. Yes I wept, but life goes on. We, as a familly had made the decision with the Doctors not to resusitate - the last few days were palative treatment only - but was a joint decision made out of humanity. Sometime in the next few years I am going to have to take the dog on his last trip to the vet. I fear that is going to upset me more, and the decision will have to be made. But to kill another being in cold blood, perhaps I am squeamish but you don't know until that time. One thing I do know - if you are part of the democratic process, you must share a responsibility for those things done in your name, be it Veit Nam or Kosovo ( Possibly an unfair comparison) Violence is not a game of space invaders - you can not click on "another game" icon. Sorry, this has depressed me I'am off to the pub. Gareth |
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24 Jul 01 - 05:50 PM (#513779) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: GUEST,petr one thing about the military, often being under orders doesnt give one much of a choice, plenty of soldiers were shot for desertion, as well as disobeying orders. Supposedly the Nuremberg trials made the "under orders" defence no longer valid but if you are ordered or face being shot, that can be a difficult choice I think most would choose survival. |
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24 Jul 01 - 06:02 PM (#513791) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Linda Kelly I would have thought it would be relatively easy - the difficulty is refraining from it. |
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24 Jul 01 - 06:39 PM (#513818) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: DougR If I or a loved one were threatened with death or serious injury, I could. You might be surprised what you will do if you are in the military. Sgt. Alvin York, U.S. hero in WW1 was a very religious man who was opposed to taking a life. But he took many of them. I have often wondered how I would react in a combat situation and fortunately for me, I will never know. I do not understand how anyone can do it for hire. DougR |
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24 Jul 01 - 06:43 PM (#513825) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Peter K (Fionn) Had to, Carol C? Obeying orders, I suppose.... You're right, MMario, not so long since, you could forfeit any and all rights, just by stealing a loaf of bread. And in a few years' time your present attitude will seem similarly quaint - though not necessarily in all parts of the US of A. Just a week or two ago, most of the nations of the world came close to a deal that would have put some millions of Kalashnikovs out of commission and curtailed much of the worldwide arms trade. It was scuppered by Bush, running scared of the NRA who thought it might compromise the constitutional right to bear arms at the best price. (Small arms have been used to kill about five million people in the past ten years - 80 per cent of them women and children; 90 per cent of them civilian.) My guess is that any one of us could be programmed to kill,whatever attitude we might start out with. In Liberia, kids as young as six have been turned into killing machines. Sometimes it's enough just to put them through brutalising regimes, but they are often forced into narcotics dependency, just to be sure. |
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24 Jul 01 - 06:45 PM (#513826) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Chip2447 In defense of my life, my family, my home, or my property; Absolutly and unequivioclly, YES. I have no doubt. In the defense of "Innocents"; Again the answer is YES. Because someone cut me off in traffic, probably not. |
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24 Jul 01 - 06:45 PM (#513829) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Peter K (Fionn) Should have said worldwide small-arms trade.... |
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24 Jul 01 - 08:34 PM (#513901) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: GUEST,Celtic Soul In defense of my child, absolutely and without hesitation. |
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24 Jul 01 - 08:41 PM (#513908) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: MMario Fionn - for the particular case I am thinking of - small arms or even a knife wouldnt do. - it deserves - oh - say sandpaper from one end to another then salt poured on - before being staked out on an anthill covered in honey. that would be a good start. and less then it deserves. |
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24 Jul 01 - 08:47 PM (#513912) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: CarolC Good point, Fionn. I felt a need to keep my job, so I did what I was told. I was very young at the time and had a lot to learn about life. I think I might choose differently at this point in my life. I have turned down a job because I told the potential employer that I could not help to kill an animal under such circumstances in the future, and he told me he couldn't guarantee that I wouldn't be required to. |
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24 Jul 01 - 08:47 PM (#513913) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: kendall To avoid losing my life, that of a loved one, yes. If I awake and see an intruder in my home, yes. To interfer with a rape in prograss, no. I would kick him as hard as I could, then hope he came at me. To stop him from stealing my tv, no. |
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24 Jul 01 - 08:59 PM (#513920) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Chicken Charlie In defense of self, family, or another human being. In some wars, yes; in others, not if I thought it through. I think some wars, once the US was in them, were pragmatically justified by the situation. Ironically, RVN, where I did my actual service, was not one of them, but at the time I did not think as I do now. If you want to go to extremes and think of situations, I might take the life of a person injured beyond hope and suffering extreme pain. I'd have to be very, very sure the ambulance wasn't just around the corner. CC |
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24 Jul 01 - 09:18 PM (#513934) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Interesting thread, I have seen a few people die, many of them whilst I was at work (I'm a delivery driver), I believe all human life is sacred. I do not own a gun (we are not allowed to in UK), even if we were I would coose not to buy one. As for animals, I have worked in a few slaughter-houses and have no problem killing animals for food, but I cannot see why people kill animals for fun, if people like shooting there are plenty of clay pigeon shooting grounds. A few years ago I was first on the scene at a serious road traffic accident, the victim (who died) was a young woman that was 6 months pregnant, I found out later that she had recently married and qualiffied as a teacher.What a waste of life. One of my concerns is road saftey, along with food saftey. Dont get me talking about food saftey, I'll probably wear my keyboard out BG.john |
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24 Jul 01 - 09:20 PM (#513936) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: catspaw49 Same answer as always and not too entertaining. Sorry Rick. If you have a gun and I have a gun (or whatever) and we are put into an area where one of us must kill the other........No contest.....If I can, I will kill you. Afterwards? How do I deal with it? How do I get the rationalization thing going? Well...............beats me, but I'd try I know. So the real question becomes one of who decides I should do what and when. Killing for Karen and the kids I can rationalize....me too. Because I was asked to or ordered to do it for any reason.................Better be a damn good reason! Obviously for me, Vietnam wasn't one. Euthanasia?...........another thread Spaw |
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24 Jul 01 - 09:28 PM (#513941) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Rick Fielding Wow, some interesting points of view. I'd forgotten to mention that one of the things that really gort me thinking about this was a Woody Allen film with Ben Gazarra and Anjelica Huston (help me someone, I've forgotten the title). A very respected doctor who's work is so valued around the world that he's about to be awarded some Nobel prize or something is threatened with exposure by his Mistress. She will bring his whole life, his work, and his good deeds crashing down around him. He'll lose everything including his family if she blabs publicly. He agonizes but decides to have her killed. He see no other way. Really made us think what we'd do in a similar situation. Scary options. Ebbie, GREAT question. Hoo boy...I don't know....but I MIGHT have. I feel like Mario (great line about the Pope by the way) in that I'm a real coward, but have jumped into situations without thinking. Just lucky to have not at least gotten my head beaten in. I guess there are few who are TRUE pacifists and simply wouldn't do it. Rick
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24 Jul 01 - 10:58 PM (#513982) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Coyote Breath sort of off the point but 80% of the guns picked up on Civil War battlefields un fired? Hmmm. Since we killed more Americans in that war than died in all our other wars combined I wonder (but don't REALLY question) about the percentage. I've been to police training. The issue is addressed in those classes. The answer most commonly presented when that question was raised was: "You won't know until the circumstance presents itself!" This answer from instructors who had dozens of years of street experience. There is something all cops face with a certain amount of apprehension and that is "lag time". A person who is in a position to cause YOU harm knows what he is going to do. You don't. The time between his formulating the thought to do you damage and you perceiving that thought (usually by their action) is called lag time. It can get you killed. But more important, perhaps, is your acting before you need to or over taking lag time. As with that fella Getz on the subway in NY a couple of years back. He shot before he knew what was happening. He had experience that led him to anticipate the worst. With all this. Once that decision has been caried through on your part nothing can change what you did. What a terrible thing to have to carry with you. Terrible, even if it was justified. Please, don't EVER make that decision. |
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24 Jul 01 - 11:17 PM (#513993) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Seamus Kennedy Rick Fielding, you're a great roaring bollocks (Clinton- note the correct spelling) for starting this thread. Clinton, LOL at your first response! My answer.. |
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24 Jul 01 - 11:18 PM (#513994) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Ebbie A guy is out with a pal in the woods when his friend sags to the ground, doesn't seem to be breathing, his eyes rolled back in his head. Guy whips out his cell phone and calls 911. He gasps to the operator, My friend is dead! What shall I do- what shall I do? Operator, in a calm soothing voice says, Just take it easy. I can help. First, make sure he's dead. There is a silence then a shot is heard. The guy's voice comes back on the line. He says, breathlessly, OK...? Ebbie |
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24 Jul 01 - 11:20 PM (#513996) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: catspaw49 Hmmmmm.............Odd, "Deliverance" is on TBS right now........ Spaw |
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24 Jul 01 - 11:27 PM (#513998) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: GUEST,John Gray / Australia The first rule in shooting / stabbing someone is to make sure you damn well kill them. Why, well the cops / court only get to hear your side of the story so you can slant it in your favour without a dissenting voice. Secondly, dead people don't come after you seeking revenge. And always remember - only live people get to go to court. JG. F.M.E. |
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24 Jul 01 - 11:40 PM (#514009) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: katlaughing Interesting points, John. When I was raised target practising, the first rule my dad drilled into us was never point a gun unless you mean to kill. We were forbidden to point even toy guns, but we knew if it ever came to a point where we felt we had no choice, we'd better damn well kill whoever we were aiming at. Curiously enough, Rick, I am waiting for archived court papers from 1890 in which my greatgrandad stood trial for shooting a neighbour who was trying to shoot him. The neighbour had plenty of ammo and a better gun, but my ggranddad had experience and shot back, once, killing the guy. kat |
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25 Jul 01 - 01:08 AM (#514032) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Rick Fielding Bada Boom Kat! Dammit, I just figured the REAL reason I started this...It's those Damn SOPRANOS!! We've gotten seriously hooked...we love 'em...and they're KILLERS! Think I'd better see a shrink along with Tony S. Seamus, what's "bollocks" are they Irish Buffalos? Rick |
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25 Jul 01 - 01:29 AM (#514035) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: toadfrog Anyone seriously interested in this topic, I'd recommend Richard Rhodes' Why they Kill. A very provocative book, although not necessary gospel truth or the final answer to anything. Coyote Breath makes a lot of sense. Said everything I would have wanted to said. Someone should say that, so I did. I, too, am very suspicious of the "80%" figure for the Civil War. But it was S.L.A. Marshall, a serious scholar, who did the study, and although I don't recall the exact figure, it was amazingly high. Maybe even as high as 20 or 25%. |
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25 Jul 01 - 01:41 AM (#514037) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: toadfrog I checked the figures from Gettysburg. Grossman, who did the investigation, states that of the muskets recovered from the battlefield, 90% were loaded, which does not tell us whether they were fired. Half of those had more than one round in them, and one had 23. I have never seen combat (and am a bit old to start), but I strongly suspect I might get so scared or excited I might screw up and load my musket 5 times. And It may also be I could not bring myself to kill. But I could not say now that from principle, I never would. |
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25 Jul 01 - 03:09 AM (#514049) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Ben thar
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25 Jul 01 - 03:10 AM (#514050) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Don that
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25 Jul 01 - 03:12 AM (#514051) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Could do it again....with "educated" folk who are ignorant of the BS nominclatures |
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25 Jul 01 - 04:11 AM (#514066) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: BlueJay Yup, Yup. Got a concealed gun permit :) and I'm ready to mow the bastards down at any time. Police our streets! Police our streets! Unfortunately for society, I don't have a gun to conceal yet. I'm looking for a really well fitting holster first. Any recommendations? But seriously, though, Rick, when push comes to shove I would do whatever I had to to protect my family. Years ago, I had an intruder in my apartment at about 3 am. Scared the shit out of us, because we had a newborn baby. I attacked with a lamp, which was the only weapon at hand, and had the intruder out the front door before I recognised her. It was the woman who lived next door. Drunk on her ass, she saw my baby who was sleeping near the living room window, and decided to come in for a closer look. She was a good neighbor, but not a really close friend. I'm glad I didn't have a gun. Thanks, BlueJay |
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25 Jul 01 - 05:45 AM (#514090) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: kendall Ebbie, that was hilarious! |
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25 Jul 01 - 07:54 AM (#514114) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Peter K (Fionn) Mmario's and Rick's comments on cowardice bring back the crazy logic of Spike Milligan's Puckoon, in which the Milligan's defence was that he was brave enough - just saddled with coward's legs. |
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25 Jul 01 - 07:55 AM (#514117) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: KingBrilliant Only if I were really really cross. Kris |
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25 Jul 01 - 08:58 AM (#514141) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Jeri I honestly don't know what I would do, and I've thought about it. I'd like to think that if I were in a situation where I was sure my life were threatened, I could kill to preserve it. I won't know for sure until I get into that situation, and I hope I never do. I was 17 when my mother and I came home to find my dad dead on the kitchen floor. Despite years of CPR training in water safety courses, I stood there frozen in shock, stuck in a slow-motion world while my brain fired conflicting thoughts too quicly for me to latch onto even one of them. It turned out that it wouldn't have mattered, but that lag time Coyote Breath talked about could have caused his death, or at least prevented the rest of his life. I've since been in situations where I have not "frozen," but I'm always aware it's possible and I must overcome it. |
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25 Jul 01 - 09:11 AM (#514153) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Art Thieme I take numerous lives every day. Just walking down the street I kill ants and a slew of other inselcts, plants and other life forms. Brushing my teeth I kill off (hopefully) a ton of bacteria. Wiping my eyes I destroy all kinds of various creatures that are, I've been told, living on my eye lids. Conversely, when I am no longer alive, I will nourish all manner of creatures. While I'm here, I do hope my songs and my actions did some nourishing and not too much harm. Art Thieme |
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25 Jul 01 - 09:22 AM (#514162) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: ard mhacha This thread for US Cats only. They love their guns. Slan Ard Mhacha. |
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25 Jul 01 - 09:32 AM (#514171) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: KitKat I'm with all the other parents on this one - there's no pain and misery too bad to inflict on people who torture and kill children - merely killing them wouldn't be nearly enough. |
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25 Jul 01 - 09:44 AM (#514184) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: SharonA You betcha we love our guns. Second Amendment rights and all that. Yes, I would defend myself if someone were trying to kill me, and if I killed that person in the process I would feel terrible for having taken a life but would not feel guilty. Does that make sense? I did decide to end the life of my 19-year-old cat who was in the final stages of kidney failure, had gone blind, and was obviously miserable and in pain. Even so, I still (two years later) feel terrible about having him put to sleep... but my feelings of guilt are for having let him suffer for so long BEFORE making the decision to put him to sleep. SharonA |
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25 Jul 01 - 10:06 AM (#514207) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: katlaughing Ard Mhacha, this thread was started by a Canadian. Please do not make blanket statements about Americans. We do NOT all love guns, including me. kat |
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25 Jul 01 - 10:14 AM (#514218) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: GUEST,L. I am going to interpet this to be a human life question. I hope I never have to make the decision but to protect my loved ones from imminent danger from someone who was about to kill them, I would certainly try to prevent harm even if it meant that I would have to take the life of another person. I would likely extend that action to protect an innocent had I the power and wherewithal. L. |
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25 Jul 01 - 12:05 PM (#514283) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Peter K (Fionn) Not this parent, KitKat. |
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25 Jul 01 - 12:06 PM (#514285) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: mousethief dead people don't come after you seeking revenge At least you'd better hope they don't! Cos once they're dead, you can't kill 'em no more! Alex |
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25 Jul 01 - 12:38 PM (#514312) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Rick Fielding I have it on good authority that the Chicago ant population live in mortal fear of Art. Anyone remember the title of the movie I mentioned earlier? Any thoughts on the choice that the Doctor made? Tough one. Jeri, thanks. Tough story. I also learned a lot of those techniques, but I'm not sure how I'd react in a similar situation. Rick |
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25 Jul 01 - 12:41 PM (#514314) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Kim C MMario, wha'd that guy DO to you anyway! You seem like such a sweet individual so it must have been Really Bad. Fionn - I don't know this for sure cause I'm a blackpowder gal and don't care for automatic-type weapons - but I THINK the US stopped the importation of AK-47s some time ago. The ones that are still here can be bought and sold but there ain't no new ones coming in. At least I think that's right, but don't anyone take it for gospel because I could very well be wrong. And I know there are other countries who buy them. I love my gun but there aren't too many crimes being committed with flintlocks these days. She was my daddy's so there's a lot of sentimental value there. I'm taking her to a shooting match in 2 weeks. Chances are, if someone surprised me in my house, the Household Defense Weapon (which is NOT a blackpowder gun) would probably not be accessible to me, so I would have to resort to strategery instead. But I would definitely fight for my life if it were necessary. If someone wants to take it they're going to have to work awfully damn hard. The TV, they can have. They already took it once, about 8 years ago. Good thing nobody was home at the time. |
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25 Jul 01 - 01:17 PM (#514345) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: vindelis I don't know that I could do the deed myself, I just hope that if the time came I would find the strength to let the medical profession do it. |
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25 Jul 01 - 01:18 PM (#514347) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: M.Ted Why anyone would steal a TV is beyond me, Kim, they're useless without the cable-- |
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25 Jul 01 - 01:53 PM (#514386) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: annamill I don't know... I would definitely take my own if I felt the quality of my life would never be good again. So, it follows that I could take the life of someone else who was suffering if that was what they wanted. I once had someone break into my house and I told my husband I was very glad I didn't have a gun. I don't believe in killing someone who is need enough to break into a house. This is someone who needs help. But, I would have shot him if I had a gun. I would probably shoot someone in a war situation, but I think your state of mind is in a strange place then. The old "Fight or Flight" syndrome type thing. I guess you gotta be there. Love, Annamill
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25 Jul 01 - 02:16 PM (#514415) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: ShankhillPhantom I nearly did once,I was willing to take 5 lives because the father would not lend me a truck to earn myself £30 for to spend on drink,I can assure you all that I would have commited that act,I was so sure that I tried to manufacture a petrol bomb to pitch thru the window ,thanks be to God that it did not happen but I had to confess to them good people many, many years later, today I could not hurt a fish (I gave it up so as I wold not inflict pain on them ,I'm still sick but not as bad) |
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25 Jul 01 - 02:21 PM (#514419) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: catspaw49 The "preparedness" Jeri brought up (sorry Jeri, touching story) makes me think of my friend Wayne, an EMT/Paramedic for 25 years before going to PA school. Both families were in my van coming back from the zoo one night and as I waited in the left turn lane to get on the outerbelt, a woman in a minivan zoomed past us in the other lane not seeing the red light evidently. She rammed into a pickup coming off the exit in a horrendous smashup. I am sitting in the driver's seat as dumbfounded as everyone else when I realized that Wayne was already halfway to the wreck. The minivan's airbag had deployed but the woman was "out" and the van was rolling across the road. Wayne managed to throw the thing into park and was immediately inside and stabilizing her neck, etc. I had finally managed to move myself, but it was amazing to watch what this guy did without apparent thought. What makes this kinda' funny is that in everyday life, Wayne is about as laid back as you get and can never make a decision without thinking for a long time. I mean we've sat in his driveway discussing (for about 5 minutes) which way is best to turn to go to the friggin' airport! He's a great guy.....don't misunderstand. It is though, completely amazing, the difference between the professional Wayne and the personal Wayne. Spaw |
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25 Jul 01 - 02:27 PM (#514423) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Steve in Idaho What a moronic question - the instinct to survive is so strong that nearly everyone would kill to stay alive. It's like trying to hold your breath to commit suicide. I've killed in war and in peace and it changes one forever. Not always so pleasantly either. But if you decide to defend yourself, and most of you will when confronted with the situation, you'd better know the law or be prepared to go to prison for it. I personally don't know anyone who "Loves" guns. I do enjoy them and have a concealed carry - and use it. Outside my home the cops take care of it - inside my home I take care of it. How's that for a flamer?? Peace Brothers and Sisters :-) |
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25 Jul 01 - 02:31 PM (#514429) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: katlaughing Rick, wasn't it Crimes and Misdemeanors? Good story, Spaw. Something happens when you train and work in that environment. I was glad to find out that I stayed that way when emergencies with my kids or family came up. My oldest daughter was only about 3 when she had a grand mal seizure. I went right into EMT mode, cleared her airway, etc. while dilaing for an ambulance. I've since had other occassions to experience the same. kat |
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25 Jul 01 - 02:34 PM (#514432) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: annamill Sorry about this, but I've been trying to reach this Mudcatter. NORTON1 -- Please PM me ASAP. You won the Ramblin' Jack Auction and I need your address. Love, Annamill |
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25 Jul 01 - 03:14 PM (#514466) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: John MacKenzie NEVER NEVER NEVER. It would be of more use to the world if people put as much thought into CREATING life. Jock |
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25 Jul 01 - 03:20 PM (#514471) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Jande I believe that as long as I didn't have time to *think* about it, I could kill another human being. I have much too much imagination. We are all capable of it, IMO, but for each of us the circumstances precipitating it would be different. Fo me it would be a towering desperate rage that would do it. And the event that triggered it would not necessarily be a very large thing. Once, during a time in my life when I was desperate, and dependent on my bicycle for transportation, and had just spent the week's grocery money to get my bicycle tires replaced after someone had slashed them, I went out the next morning to find them slashed again! I was later thankful I didn't have an UZI because I was so full of despair and rage that if I'd had one I would have ran the block's length to the corner of Queen and Bathurst and let loose at everything that moved. At the time, I had to call a counsellor to "talk me down". It was that proverbial "last straw" feeling. I would also kill if I was trapped. In a high-school episode once, I almost killed a girl who through a misunderstanding, jumped on me to try and beat me up while I was sitting in the back seat of a convertable. I hardly felt any of her blows, my blood was up so quickly. I just reached up and had her by the throat and started squeezing. She had the bruises from that for weeks. I'm pretty sure I would have killed her if she hadn't wrenched herself free. Strangely enough, before that I thought of myself as a weakling, and that episode gave me more confidence as a whole. It being in self-defense, it was an exhiliarating experience. I get that rage whenever I see an adult hurting a small child. I've got that reasonable under control now, though. I've learned that it often makes things worse for the child if you interfere with parental brutality or harrassment. On the other hand, I also believe that every human has within them the capacity for compassion, true remorse, to make restitution/penance, etc. So if I have the chance to think about it the need to anihilate the perpetrator subsides. ~ Jande |
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25 Jul 01 - 03:23 PM (#514473) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Steve in Idaho Jock - I can assure you that I spend a bunch more time practicing creating life than I do practicing to do harm!!! Ya gotta love the freedom this place has - :-} |
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25 Jul 01 - 03:32 PM (#514480) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Ebbie Once, in a red-raging, bitter dispute, I wanted to suggest to him that we go outside away from the other people to continue the discussion but I didn't- because I knew that if we were alone, I would pick up a board or anything else to hand. That is definitely a murderous impulse. If circumstances didn't interfere, there would be a lot more killings! Ebbie |
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25 Jul 01 - 06:03 PM (#514557) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Rick Fielding You're making a LOT of sense Ebbie. Were it not for circumstances I'd probably have shot every drunk in a bar who ever asked me to sing "Tie A Yellow Ribbon"!....or anything by Kenny Rogers...or Neil Young...... Rick |
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25 Jul 01 - 06:12 PM (#514559) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: katlaughing When I was young and my not-then-ex was beating on my dog, I did take up a gun I had and I shot it, over his head to get his attention; screaming hadn't stopped him, but the gunshot did. Because I was afraid he would turn the gun on me, I immediately slammed the door shut and locked it. He was outside and couldn't get in. I am really glad I didn't shoot him, but I do remember the desperation and rage I felt that I couldn't get his violence to stop. At that time I was hitting dead center at target practice all of the time, so it wasn't a matter of missing him. I gave the dog away the next day. It wasn't too long after that I moved out and got a divorce. kat |
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25 Jul 01 - 06:34 PM (#514568) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Little Hawk Whew! To return to the original question that started all this... Yes. I believe at this point I would take a life if someone were to offer me one...as long as it wasn't a life with really miserable conditions attached to it, that is...and there are certainly plenty of those in this world. You gotta be careful about stuff like that. - LH |
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26 Jul 01 - 12:05 PM (#514983) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Ringer Not much comment on the military aspect, so far. Would you 'list if your country was at war and you were drafted? Would you be Public Executioner? (If your country applies capital punishment, someone's got to do it.) |
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26 Jul 01 - 12:20 PM (#515002) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: English Jon This is a bit of a stupid question. I'm not a great one for Bibles, but I seem to remember: "Thou shalt do no murder" in between "look after your parents" and "don't sleep with the next-door neighbor's wife". Feel quite strongly about this one. To deliberately kill another person is, in my opinion, the worst thing anyone can do. My personal feeling re "the military" is that it would all be fine if it could do its job without violence, but untill it can, I'll be campaigning for it to be decommisioned. I think that people see killing (and being killed) in a "war" situation as glorious in some strange way. "Dulce et decorum est pro patria mori" and all that sort of thing. Frankly, I think this is bollocks, and if INDIVIDUAL people would all realise that guns are bad, the world would be a considerably nicer place. Of course, this only works if everyone agrees, as one bloke with a gun can terrorise a lot of people without a gun. So folks, the brave thing to do is not have one. And that's why I think soldiering is a stupid occupation. Go and get a proper job. EJ (surprisingly incensed) must be coffee time. |
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26 Jul 01 - 12:34 PM (#515012) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Steve in Idaho Guns are bad? I didn't know they possessed life and the ability to provide a rationale. Guns aren't squat - it's what people do with them that determines if they are appropriate or not. What an irresponsible statement! People need to take responsibility for what they do - not blame what they use as the problem. As far a soldiering being a stupid occupation - who made you the judge of what is honorable and what is not? If everyone had a gun then no one could terroize anyone. Every country or state that has outlawed weapons has seen a huge increase in crime rates. Where concealed carry permits have been made available the crime rates have decreased. You are more at risk from seeing your doctor than you are of being injured by a gun. And what the hell is a "proper job?" Not incensed - in a state of umbrage. |
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26 Jul 01 - 12:37 PM (#515014) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: mousethief If everyone had a gun then no one could terroize anyone What a lot of hooey! Anyone more willing to use his gun than someone who places a higher value on human life could terrorize his more humane neighbors. Alex |
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26 Jul 01 - 12:50 PM (#515019) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Steve in Idaho Humane neighbors?? Those neighbors wouldn't be so humane if they allowed some one person to terrorize the rest without interceding. They would be part of the problem and not the solution in my opinion. Are we flaming yet?? |
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26 Jul 01 - 12:53 PM (#515020) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: English Jon "Guns are bad? I didn't know they possessed life and the ability to provide a rationale. Guns aren't squat - it's what people do with them that determines if they are appropriate or not. What an irresponsible statement! People need to take responsibility for what they do - not blame what they use as the problem." Yes that's exactly what I meant, but you've said it better than me. "And what the hell is a "proper job?"" Well, that's a whole other level of philosophy, but in this context, I mean one where you're paid to do something constructive rather than kill people. Point is, I could earn far more in the British army than I do in the entertainment industry, fine in many ways military life is very attractive. Good rates of pay, holidays, you get to travel, clear promotional path, good pension etc, all in all, quite a good lifestyle, but I couldn't ever join, because I find the core concept totally disagreeable. You're a military man, Norton and I don't expect you to agree with me. "who made you the judge of what is honorable and what is not?" Well, nobody, but the thread did ask for peoples opinions, certainly, I wouldn't feel honorable if I had a gun. Everyone has to make their own moral judgement. However, I feel that killing people is the same whether you're a soldier or an assasin. Being paid to do it on behalf of someone else, a private individual or a government makes no difference. I guess it's a conscience thing. EJ
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26 Jul 01 - 01:15 PM (#515036) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Midchuck I wouldn't feel honorable if I had a gun... Huh? I wouldn't feel honorable if I did not have a gun. I would be refusing to accept my share of responsibility for the protection of the safety and freedom of myself and my family, and dumping it on someone else. "Unarmed free citizen" is an oxymoron. IMNSHO. Peter. |
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26 Jul 01 - 01:26 PM (#515043) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Steve in Idaho Guess that makes me an assasin by your standards as I did receive pay to kill others. And opinions and judgements are different. Yes I spent time in the military, even work for them as a social worker trying to get families to harmonize instead of fight, and am quite proud of my service. So I won't expect you to agree with me either. The one thing I do know is that the core concept of an armed military being sent where the government wants with consent of the governed makes all of us culpable in the killing. Being the payee is no better than being the one paid in my opinion. Makes us all assasins by proxy doesn't it? SN |
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26 Jul 01 - 01:47 PM (#515057) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Jim Krause Rick, We are all pretty complicated beings. Some of the paradoxes you mention about yourself I see in myself also. For instance, I registered as a Concientious Objector during the Viet Nam unpleasantness, but I very much enjoy target shooting at the local muzzleloading gun club. There are several jobs I will not apply for, because I would feel the need to report for work armed. These include liquor store clerk, convenience store clerk, and certainly any sort of police work. But had I been born in Canada, I might have really tried hard to justify the compromise in my beliefs so I could join the RCMP. I just love horses, and dressage is great fun. As to taking a life, I hope never, never to be in a situation where I must make that decision. So I try to avoid situations where I may have to make that choice. And that includes my choice of neighborhoods in which to live. |
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26 Jul 01 - 02:01 PM (#515068) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: mousethief Humane neighbors?? Those neighbors wouldn't be so humane if they allowed some one person to terrorize the rest without interceding. They would be part of the problem and not the solution in my opinion. They'd all be dead if they're less bloodthirsty than the nasty neighbor. Alex |
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26 Jul 01 - 02:16 PM (#515075) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Steve in Idaho Bloodthirsty? You can't be serious. As a self adjudicated assasin, philosophically speaking that is, it doesn't have anything to do with a lust for blood. The core of all military and police groups is that a set of people with like minded ideology decided to protect that same ideology with armed professionals taken from their own citizenry. In that context we are all citizens of our respective ideological inclinations and to defend one's neighbors from another who seeks to destroy the peace and harmony is being responsible to self and country/ideology. I laud Jim for having the personal belief system strong enough to risk it all to not participate in his country of choice's decision. I wonder at the rest who simply condemn without having the conviction to actually do something. SN |
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26 Jul 01 - 02:22 PM (#515079) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Little Hawk Funny...those to whom a bloodthirsty ferocity and combativeness comes naturally can't seem to find respect for those to whom it doesn't...and vice versa! You are both disgusted with one another's lack of good sense, decency, humanity, and responsibility. Why don't you both just let the other one be what he is with good grace? People are different, but that doesn't necessarily mean that anyone is WRONG...in an ultimate sense. We all have free will. Is it any wonder that different people choose to use it differently? There is a time and place for everything, guns included, I suspect. I don't own one at this time. It hasn't made a rat's ass of difference in my life, but it might have under different circumstances...in which case I might have owned a gun...or not...who knows? I've already died any number of times. More than I can count or imagine. Why get all bent out of shape over the possibility of it happening once more? It's gonna happen eventually anyway, whether or not I own a gun. Don't sweat it, cos death may not be so bad as you think. Chew on that. - LH |
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26 Jul 01 - 02:31 PM (#515094) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Steve in Idaho ...those to whom a bloodthirsty ferocity and combativeness comes naturally can't seem to find respect for those to whom it doesn't...and vice versa! I don't know LH - Why is that? You are both disgusted with one another's lack of good sense, decency, humanity, and responsibility. I can't recall saying I was disgusted with anyone - it appears to me to be the exact opposite - we are all showing good sense, sticking to our beliefs, haven't really called anyone names, are deeply vested in upholding our version of humanity - i.e. retaining life if at all possible - and are being responsible through our public expression of our belief. If no one talks about it how do we share perspective? This bloodthirsty thing is really wierd - where does that come from?? SN |
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26 Jul 01 - 02:45 PM (#515105) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Steve in Idaho And this is my final response - May Peace abide with all of us - Good Night Sweet Prince wherever you are - - -SN |
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26 Jul 01 - 02:55 PM (#515119) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Little Hawk Could be I'm just in a lousy mood... I think that any point of view seems to make sense under certain conditions. That's why people frequently end up contradicting both themselves and others. I can imagine times when I would want a gun, and times when I would not necessarily want one. One thing that worries me about guns is, they make it a little too easy to kill someone. Better if it's not that easy. I might well have killed one or two people by now if I'd had a gun right there and handy. I have a friend who is definitely bloodthirsty, in the sense that he would like to see this group or that group of people done away with....his standard solution to every social problem is to exterminate the offenders (whomever they might be presumed to be)...or at least deport them (to where is always the question...). On the other hand, as far as I know, he's never done anything harmful to anyone, and in fact has been a good friend to many, including me. I'm at a loss to explain it. Life is weird. Pardon my lousy mood. - LH |
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26 Jul 01 - 02:57 PM (#515124) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Steve in Idaho LH - - - No Problem :-) |
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26 Jul 01 - 03:08 PM (#515137) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: SharonA English Jon sez: "I feel that killing people is the same whether you're a soldier or an assassin. Being paid to do it on behalf of someone else, a private individual or a government makes no difference." Agreed, Jon, that in each case the "killee" is just as dead. However, I think there is a difference between the assassin's action and the soldier's action: (a) While the assassin does his deed voluntarily, the soldier may have been drafted or (s)he may have been tempted into enlisting by the promised college-education benefits or may have signed up for some reason other than the opportunity to kill. The soldier's planned "career path" may have had nothing to do with active duty but, once (s)he was in, his/her life was no longer his/her own and (s)he may have found him/herself on the battlefield unwillingly. (b) While the assassin gets paid for his kill, a soldier is paid whether (s)he kills or not. In other words, the soldier is not being paid to kill specifically. (c) While the assassin kills for monetary gain and/or personal privilege, the soldier may well feel that the "loftier goal" of defense of country or defense of the free world (or whatever part of the world [s]he is from!) is a greater good for which (s)he is willing to take another life. (d) While the assassin's victim is usually surprised and is not actively trying to kill the assassin before the victim is approached, the soldier's victim is as dedicated to killing him/her as (s)he is to killing his/her enemy, so the element of self-defense comes into play. BTW I apologize if I offended anyone with my flippant statement about how "we" Americans love "our" guns. I shouldn't have generalized. Personally, I like target shooting, but I hate to see guns used irresponsibly (last Mother's Day, I performed at a Million Mom March rally to promote gun safety legislation). SharonA |
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26 Jul 01 - 03:39 PM (#515158) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Little Hawk Good points, Sharon. I think inner intention is the vital matter in evaluating any act in a moral sense. In other words, don't judge the book by its cover. This is why crimes of passion (resulting in murder) bother me less than planned crimes, such as cold-bloodedly fraudulent schemes to rob a great many people through a phony stock promotion or whatever... Any of us is capable of a crime of passion, under certain circumstances...that does not make us "bad" people, per se. I think if humanity generally had a spiritual breakthrough, and "woke up", then people would not want to go to war with each other. Military training is designed to overcome a person's natural reluctance to imperil his own life and take the lives of others. Then there's patriotism, which works strongly on the mind of a soldier. Most soldiers feel justified in what they are doing most of the time. Some assassins also feel highly motivated and justified in what they are doing, as in the case of religiously or politically motivated assassinations. Just one example: the German military people who tried to blow up Hitler in his bunker...too bad they did not succeed. Timothy McVeigh obviously felt very justified in what he did, which is no comfort to those he hurt, but how does one make a final judgement on the morality of a man in such a state of mind? It's not a simple case of black and white we've got here. - LH |
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26 Jul 01 - 03:44 PM (#515162) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Kim C Like Spaw said.... if you've got a weapon, and I've got a weapon (or even if I don't), and I want to live, I'll try to kill you. And no one will ever convince me that defending myself or my family is wrong. All of the guns in my house are very well-behaved, with the possible exception of my flintlock, Athena. Athena has a tendency to hang fire after about 10 shots because her barrel gets fouled. Other than that, she is a fine, upstanding member of my household. My daddy taught her pretty well. It's really unfortunate when guns go bad. Gun owners need to be more watchful that their firearms don't fall into bad company. I would also like to point out, that there are still a few parts of the world (even in the US) where people have to kill their own food or else go hungry. Sure, go tell those folks in the middle of Alaska they can't have any guns, and they'll have to go back to using blow darts to kill the caribou. In addition, lives can be taken with other methods besides firearms. Not too long ago, a man in Japan was arrested for swinging a knifeblade around and cutting a bunch of folks. Even in a country without guns, people still get hurt. and lastly, I don't think Cain shot Abel with a .38 revolver. |
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26 Jul 01 - 03:50 PM (#515176) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Little Hawk Nope, but if he'd had a .38, he would have probably been more dangerous...at least at a distance. - LH |
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26 Jul 01 - 05:18 PM (#515287) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: SharonA Or he might have shot his parents, too, and then himself. And THEN where would we be?! Little Hawk sez: "Some assassins also feel highly motivated and justified in what they are doing, as in the case of religiously or politically motivated assassinations." True; I wasn't really thinking of them when I wrote my "point (c)"; I was thinking of the assassins in Jon's argument who are paid to kill, but I was assuming he meant those who have no personal reasons for murdering. Then again, religiously or politically motivated assassins often receive nothing but the satisfaction that they are living by their convictions (while, of course, their victims are not living at all!). KimC: But a blow-dart is a weapon, too, isn't it? How about telling the Alaskans to become vegetarians instead, and to till the permafrost to grow their food? /:^) SharonA |
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26 Jul 01 - 06:27 PM (#515346) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Kim C Sure, a blow-dart is a weapon, and can be just as dangerous as a gun in the hands of someone who knows how to use it. I think they do pick little wild blueberries out of the permafrost... |
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26 Jul 01 - 07:13 PM (#515385) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Gareth When a man puts on a Red Coat or a Blue Jacket does he discard his natural instincts or feelings ? I am to young to have done National Service in the UK (draft) and to old to voulenteer. But the thought what if will always be what if ? And with that I'am to my bed, if the dog will let me, for I've got to take a lethal object to Swansea in the morning, its called a motor car. Gareth
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26 Jul 01 - 07:42 PM (#515419) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Grab Thing is, all of us are reasonably intelligent, reasonably self- and mutually-respecting ppl. This is very different from the tiny minority who (as per police statistics) commit the majority of crimes. If everyone has the right to own a gun, that includes this minority. Vetting is a good step to avoiding this situation, but it's not perfect (Dunblane). If threatened, we will shoot at the person threatening us - the trouble is, that other person may not even need that reason, and may be quite prepared to shoot you on sight. So widespread ownership of guns (or any other weapon) is a dangerous thing, at least without the proper teaching/indoctrination so you won't use it on others. Military training is designed to indoctrinate you to make it psychologically easier for you to kill. In my teens I received the opposite training from my Taekwondo instructor - that you must never fight outside the class. She did that so successfully that one boy in the class was beaten up bcos he wouldn't fight back, and it worked pretty well on me since I previously always used to be in fights. That _doesn't_ mean that I have an easy temper, just that I have a high threshold at which I become provoked (a very thick skin, in other words) which is superficially similar. But there's a few times when that's been crossed, and fortunately the person involved wasn't around. Once was when a friend at uni was being racially harassed - I went over to see him with the single purpose of at least threatening the person responsible, and I'm glad in retrospect that the culprit wasn't around so that the "most" wasn't explored! I have refused to do self-defence training with my wife, on the grounds that the one time I did she seemed to really be fighting, and that kicked my instincts in. I stopped and refused to continue bcos I knew that if she had caught me with an attack, I would almost certainly have responded and hurt her without thinking about it or being able to stop myself, and I couldn't have lived with myself if I'd done that. The flipside of the restraint that training teaches you is that when the instincts are required, you're much more likely to cause harm to the other person since you generally have better skills - this is as true for shooting as for unarmed martial arts. As far as self-defence or the defence of others goes, the first instinct must _always_ be to attack the person with as much force as possible until they are no longer a threat - in my case that will be hands and feet, or a kitchen knife if I'm at home. Whether they live or die after that is not important - sorry to be so callous, but I believe (and my instincts agree) that you and/or the person/ppl you're protecting have more rights than an attacker. Sorry this is such a personal note. I tried making it general, but I realised there was no way I could say "in theory in this case, I'd do this or that". I'm quite introspective and I know myself enough to say that theory will have nothing to do with it. (I've rephrased this to cut a rather more detailed explanation, which was a bit too much). This is not pleasant to hear, but it's the only truthful answer to the question. It isn't pleasant to think about either since I don't like being so out of control and I don't like what could happen, but it's not optional, it goes with my body and brain, and I just have to deal with it. Hence I tend to avoid situations where I could get in fights. Graham. |
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26 Jul 01 - 09:02 PM (#515464) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: GUEST,Ralph in Leeds Yes, I would...I have. In anger. Would do it again if pushed. |
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27 Jul 01 - 02:22 AM (#515670) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Ebbie "Every country or state that has outlawed weapons has seen a huge increase in crime rates." Is this true? Ebbie |
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27 Jul 01 - 03:08 AM (#515695) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull I heard this on the radio-Number of people killed with gund in USA last year 30,000 Number of people killed with guns in UK
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27 Jul 01 - 10:11 AM (#515880) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Kim C The population of the UK is also a LOT smaller than the US. But it could also mean that the folks in the UK aren't very good shots. ;-) How many murders were there overall in the UK last year? Gunshot stats alone don't tell the whole story. I seem to remember hearing a news report a year or so ago about two teenage girls in England who BEAT a woman to death. In the absence of a gun, a person with a murderous intent will find some other way to carry it out. Remember that guy in Japan a couple of months ago who attacked a group of people with a knife? I'm sure our GUEST Anti-Smoking Crusader can tell us that more people died in the US last year from smoking-related illnesses than by gunshots. Death is usually tragic anyhow, whether by disease or injury. Why do we like to put so much emphasis on gunshots? When I took tae kwon do (this was years ago) we were never told not to fight outside the class. What we were told, is that we should never fight to show off, but fighting in defense of yourself, or another who was incapable of defense, was fair game. That was why we were there, after all. |
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27 Jul 01 - 12:10 PM (#515986) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Little Hawk I took a frog's life once. A tree had fallen and it had sheared off the frog's eyes...both of them...and left the rest of the frog intact. I was horrified, and killed the frog as an act of mercy, with a hammer...that being the only thing at hand which seemed workable. It was an utterly horrifying and sickening experience. I had to hit that frog 3 times before it died. I sure as hell hope I never kill a human being. - LH |
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27 Jul 01 - 12:18 PM (#515991) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: catspaw49 Well, that would explain why the Muppets never come to Orillia. Spaw |
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27 Jul 01 - 12:53 PM (#516031) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Jack the Sailor There are about 4 times as many people in USA than Britain 30,000/19 = 1598, Sixteen hundred times the number of gun related Murders.... I moved to Toronto in 1989. There wer 32 Murders in Toronto that year. Something like 1,500 murders in Detroit (a smaller city) that same year. Admittedly a bad year for Detroit but America is certianly the G8 champ for violent crime. whether it is per capita or by gross numbers. It's a gunslinger mentality, having the weapon in hand make one more likely to act. The possibility of the other guy having a weapon increases the fear and possibly makes one more likely to shoot. |
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27 Jul 01 - 12:54 PM (#516035) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Midchuck It's a gunslinger mentality, having the weapon in hand make one more likely to act. The possibility of the other guy having a weapon increases the fear and makes one moke likely to shoot. Can't argue with your numbers, but I think you spoke a greater truth than you knew, when you said it was the gunslinger mentality. The Swiss have a gun in every home. They have to. It's a law. And they have a murder rate comparable to other european countries. I am told that the Mexicans are for the most part gunless. They have restrictive gun laws, and most people can't afford them anyway. But they evidently approach U. S. murder rates, relying on nothing but knives. It's a question of mental attitude, not the available tools. Note that, with the amount of guns in the U. S., if each and every gun in the country were used to commit one, and only one, homicide, you'd have to bring people in from outside to finish the job. The U. S. population would be gone before all the guns had been used. Ergo: the great majority of guns do no harm. Peter. |
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27 Jul 01 - 01:15 PM (#516062) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: GUEST,petr If all the guns in America were fired simultaneously the energy involved would be enough to stop Californias energy crisis. |
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27 Jul 01 - 01:17 PM (#516063) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: English Jon I think the point of the thread is more to do with the ethics of killing rather than the have gun/not have gun thing. You could kill someone quite easily with a well aimed banjo. Obviously it's impractical to ban every object that could ever be used to cause harm, but I do think it is in global society's best interests to adopt a culture of non violence. Norton made an interesting point further up: "The one thing I do know is that the core concept of an armed military being sent where the government wants with consent of the governed makes all of us culpable in the killing. Being the payee is no better than being the one paid in my opinion. Makes us all assasins by proxy doesn't it?" I don't know much about how politics works in the states, but in the U.K. we have a party system, where one party always wins whatever. So we have a choice of Labour Conservative (currently, politically almost exactly the same) Smaller parties with insufficient support to gain a majority. Or, If you don't like any of the buggers, you can say so on your voting card, in which case it is considered "spoilt" and counted as void. In the last election, 4 in 10 did not vote at all (which I think should be considered a vote against all candidates), and due to the electoral system in the U.K. only those who live in marginal constituencies can make a difference anyway. Where I live, the Conservative candidate always wins, for example. 4 in 10 by the way is a greater proportion of the electorate than voted for the Labour party this time. I think they got something like 36% of the remaining 6 in 10 who did vote. Also, there is no Socialist party in the U.K. with sufficient credibility to attract enough votes to gain a seat in Westminster (a few in Scotland, apparently) etc etc. Basically, The U.K. is far from being a democracy. So, effectively, what I pay in tax goes straight to a body who exist contrary to my wishes, and they spend it however they see fit. I'd far rather it went to the health service, education etc, but large chunks of it go to the military against my personal wishes. Therefore I deny culpability for deaths caused by the military. EJ |
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27 Jul 01 - 03:43 PM (#516215) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Kim C Like I said, all the guns in my house are very well-behaved... (Spaw I am glad to see the operation left your sense of humor intact!) |
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27 Jul 01 - 05:24 PM (#516310) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Rick Fielding Thanks English Jon for reading my first post. OBVIOUSLY it's about "the ethics of killing". We've had dozens of threads about whether guns should be "a right" or not. More arguments about the "constitution" or The Bible are probably not of much interest. I was curious about how folks felt about taking a life, and how far they'd need to be pushed to do it. Thanks for the feedback folks. Rick |
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27 Jul 01 - 05:48 PM (#516320) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Jack the Sailor Point about the ethics well taken. But murder is motive and opportunity. Guns increase the opportunity. I know I would kill someone because a couple of times I was stopped from doing so. Two knees on the other guy's chest, hand s on throat and him turning blue. If I had had a gun they would have been dead before my friend pulled me off. Neither occaision had much to do with ethics. It was a hard, unexpected. blow to my face and me coming up swinging |
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27 Jul 01 - 07:13 PM (#516370) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Little Hawk Hey, Spaw - Funny you should mention the muppets. My personal mascot has for many years been a stuffed Kermit the Frog figure, about 16 inches tall! I don't think there's any connection with the wounded frog incident. I do think that if we were required to slaughter our own beef and pork and chickens, that vegetarianism would skyrocket in North America. Times have changed in that respect since the frontier days. Midchuck - you are absolutely right. The mental attitude is the key. The undercurrent of violence in Mexico was extremely apparent when I was there, as well as the constant presence of a very dangerous and corrupt police force. Mexico and the USA are extremely violent countries, as countries go, and it's due to the prevailing mentality in both cases. As you point out, the Mexicans manage to commit most of their murders with knives. If they had guns it would probably be even worse. Canada is a pretty peaceful country. Again, it's the prevailing mentality that is the key. Cuba seemed to be pretty peaceful to me when I was there. The streets were safe at night, and people seemed relaxed. However, a couple of my young friends told me that a fair number of fights arise due to drinking (rum, usually), and those often involve knives, machetes, or whatever is to hand. I did not see any such incident. I saw several in Mexico. I do not doubt that it happens in Cuba, but the place felt way, way safer than Mexico or the downtown of most large American cities. - LH |
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27 Jul 01 - 08:10 PM (#516411) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: Lonesome EJ 80% of the guns picked up on Civil War battlefields un fired? Hmmm. Since we killed more Americans in that war than died in all our other wars combined I wonder (but don't REALLY question) about the percentage I believe this is close to the truth. War has always been to a great extent about intimidation rather than murder : By displaying sheer numbers and iron will, inducing the enemy to flee the field. Even in the blood bath of the Civil War, the desire to AVOID killing or being killed must have been overwhelming among a vast number of combatants. Although bayonets were general issue on both sides in that war, they were seldom used even in infantry charges and melees, the men instead choosing to engage each one another using fists and rifle-butts. Would I take a life? To stop a murder or terminate a tyrant, certainly. To kill another man on the field of battle would be much, much more difficult. |
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27 Jul 01 - 09:19 PM (#516427) Subject: RE: Would you take a life?What circumstance? From: CarolC Rick, I've been thinking a lot about the question you posed earlier up on the thread about that movie. It's an interesting dilemma, isn't it?
Of course, they couldn't do it this way in a movie or it wouldn't make much of a movie, but I was thinking about how something like that might play out in real life.
What's got me wondering is what would happen in a situation like that, if the guy who felt that his life's work was threatened tried to find some sort of arrangement that would be mutually acceptable to both of them. One in which he felt his work was safe, and she felt that she could get on with her life and forget about him. I guess I'm assuming that the guy didn't really want to have the woman killed but just felt that he had no other choice. Maybe it's just the idealist pollyanna in me, but your question got me thinking about that. |