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Origins: The White/Blue/Green Cockade

12 Jan 98 - 01:40 PM (#19104)
Subject: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: hanrahan@webtv.net

Might someone know the background of the English folksong "The Blue Coakade" I haven't found it in any books. Thanks...

An Uachtar, hanrahan

12 Jan 98 - 03:10 PM (#19106)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From:

Are you perhaps after "Blue Cap" or "White Cockade"?

13 Jan 98 - 11:23 AM (#19151)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: hanrahan

It was early one mornin' as I crossed o'er the mars
I little thought of listing 'til the soldiers did me cross
The company enticed me to drink their health all round
And the bounty...and the bounty
They gave me five shillings and a crown...

It's true my love has listed and he wears a Blue Cockade...

An Uachtar,
hanrahan

13 Jan 98 - 11:31 AM (#19152)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: hanrahan

Yes it is listed here in the data base as "White Cockade"...thanks....hanrahan

13 Jan 98 - 01:04 PM (#19156)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: Bruce O.

There is some discussion of the English and Scottish songs, "The White Cockade" on a recent thread here.

13 Feb 09 - 08:33 PM (#2566439)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: The Sandman

I heard some idiot sing the blue cockade tonight,apparently learned from a Show of Hands recording
the White Cockade , was white for a reason,a blue cockade appears to be just nonsense.

13 Feb 09 - 08:40 PM (#2566442)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: The Sandman

yellow cockade?

13 Feb 09 - 08:59 PM (#2566453)
Subject: Lyr Add: THE BLUE COCKADE
From: The Borchester Echo

From The Wanton Seed:

"A widely travelled song, the colour of the recruit's cockade changing according to the area in which the song is found or the political opinion of a singer through whose hands (or mouth!) the song has passed. During the 18th century wars, cockades of their national colours were worn by the soldiers engaged. The white cockade became the distinctive emblem of the Jacobites and this is usually the colour mentioned in Northern counties, where the song may possibly have originated. "The Orange and Blue" (which also appears in the song Green Grows the Laurel,) may refer to the army of William III, in which case the "blue" version of the song must be the earlier."

Bliss & Napper and The Witches Of Elswick also do The Blue Cockade:


'Twas on one Monday morning as I stepped o'er the moss
I little thought of listing, till the soldiers did me cross
The company enticed me to drink their health all round
And the bounty they gave me, five guineas and a crown

My head was full of drink, love, I never thought of you
And now I'm forced to go and join the orange and the blue
My ship she waits at anchor, to take the flowing tide
I'll return love, in the spring time I'll make you my bride

So early the next morning, before the break of day
The captain gave his orders, and my love marched away
All in your rank and file boys, all on your native shore
Fare thee well love, you're the lad that I adore

But I hope you never prosper, I hope you always fail
At everything you venture, I hope you ne'er do well
And the very ground you walk on, may the grass refuse to grow
Since you've been the very cause of all my sorrow, grief and woe

It's true my love is 'listed, now he wears that blue cockade
He is a handsome young man, likewise a roving blade
He is a handsome young man, now he's gone to serve the king
While my very heart is aching all for the love of him.

13 Feb 09 - 10:35 PM (#2566492)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: Malcolm Douglas

This short thread has lain forgotten for 11 years. Reviving it after all this time in order to call somebody an idiot seems a little odd. For all I know, Dick, the person you heard singing may indeed be an idiot; but if he is, it's not because he sang 'blue' where you thought he ought to have sung 'white'. There are many past discussions here that deal with 'The White Cockade' which you can easily find for yourself, but it looks as if you need some special help with this particular point.

The song is number 191 in the Roud Folk Song Index; it was clearly very popular in its day given the number of versions that survived in oral currency well into the 20th century. Although white is the most common cockade-colour, there are examples in which it is blue (Williams, Hammond collections) or green (Sharp, Baring-Gould collections). While I was away checking some facts, Diane has posted Frank Purslow's note from The Wanton Seed, which is reasonable so far as it goes, but will be expanded upon in the revised edition currently in preparation. I quoted Frank myself in thread Origins: Regiment - Orange and Blue, where the discussion was mainly about cockades.

The words you quote are the ones that Napper & Bliss use, presumably, Diane? As you know, I tend to be wary of using revival arrangements to make points about any song unless we know where the performer got it from and can tell how much they have edited it. Perhaps Tom Bliss will enlighten us later on.

The song has been re-cast from time to time under more than one title, but usually to a limited extent only so that examples can still usefully be considered together as a group. There are broadside editions of various forms from the late C18 onward at  Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads. For what it's worth, the earlier ones there tend not to be 'white' versions.

[The] White Cockade

The inconstant lover; or, The Blue Cockade

Bold Light Horseman (in which the cockade is blue).

The Light Blues (in which the cockade is black).

Of course there are other, quite different songs called 'The White Cockade' , and others that were set to the well-known tune (which appears to be older than the song in question here). We needn't concern ourselves with them. 'Show of Hands' are not my cup of tea, so I have no idea where they got the version that Dick mentioned. I would hope that they say in their sleevenotes.

14 Feb 09 - 03:51 AM (#2566558)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: wyrdolafr

I recently read a good piece on the 1780 'Gordon Riots'. The blue cockade was used there as a symbol for the Protestant Association.

14 Feb 09 - 05:01 AM (#2566586)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: The Sandman

thanks, for the info .

14 Feb 09 - 06:15 AM (#2566608)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: The Sandman

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
The Gordon Riots, depicted in a painting by John Seymour Lucas

The Gordon Riots refers to a number of events in a predominantly Protestant religious uprising in London, England, in 1780, aimed against the Papists Act 1778, "relieving his Majesty's subjects, of the Catholic Religion, from certain penalties and disabilities imposed upon them during the reign of William III." The uprising then became an excuse for widespread rioting and looting by others.
Contents
[hide]

    * 1 Purpose of Act
    * 2 Riots
          o 2.1 Protestant Association
          o 2.2 Initiation
          o 2.3 Army Response
    * 3 References
    * 4 Further reading
    * 5 See also
    * 6 External links

[edit] Purpose of Act

The ostensible intention of this piece of legislation was, as the Act's preamble states, to mitigate some of the more extreme manifestations of official discrimination against Roman Catholics in the Kingdom of Great Britain at the time, particularly and notably absolving Catholics from taking the religious oath when joining the British military. There were very strong expedient reasons for this particular act of seeming benevolence, notably the fact that British military forces at the time were stretched very thin in what had become a global American War of Independence, with conflicts ongoing with France, Spain and America, and opening the door to recruitment of Catholics was a significant factor in the eventual resolution of this shortfall of manpower.

[edit] Riots

[edit] Protestant Association
Lord George Gordon head of the Protestant Association.

Lord George Gordon set up a Protestant Association in 1780 to force the repeal of this legislation. An articulate, albeit eccentric propagandist, Gordon inflamed the mob with fears of papism and a return to absolute monarchical rule, intimating that Catholics in the military would, given a chance, join forces with their co-religionists on the Continent, and attack Britain.

The political climate deteriorated rapidly. On 29 May 1780 Gordon called a meeting of the Protestant Association, and his followers subsequently marched on the House of Commons to deliver a petition demanding the repeal of the Roman Catholic Relief Act the following week.

[edit] Initiation

Thus, on 2 June 1780 a huge crowd, many carrying flags and banners proclaiming "No Popery", and estimated to be between 40,000 to 60,000 strong, assembled and marched on the Houses of Parliament. As they marched, their numbers gathered and swelled. They attempted to force their way in to the House of Commons but without success. Gordon, petition in hand, and wearing in his hat the blue cockade, symbol of the Protestant Association, entered the Lower House and presented the petition. Outside, however, the situation quickly got out of hand and a riot erupted.

Newgate Prison was attacked and largely destroyed, as was The Clink.[1] Severe destruction was inflicted on Catholic churches and homes, including the chapels on the grounds of several embassies, as well as the Bank of England, Fleet Prison, and the house of the Lord Chief Justice, William Murray, 1st Earl of Mansfield.

[edit] Army Response

The army was called out on 7 June and given orders to fire upon groups of four or more who refused to disperse. About 285 persons were shot dead, and several hundred more were wounded. Of those arrested, about 20 or 30 were executed. Gordon was arrested and charged with high treason, but was found not guilty.

The army units which dealt with the rioters were Honourable Artillery Company and the 1st Battalion/2nd Regiment of Foot also known as the Queen's Royal Regiment (West Surrey).

14 Feb 09 - 06:16 AM (#2566609)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: The Sandman

They attempted to force their way in to the House of Commons but without success. Gordon, petition in hand, and wearing in his hat the blue cockade, symbol of the Protestant Association.

14 Feb 09 - 07:15 AM (#2566634)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: GUEST,doc.tom

Tom Bliss' Blue Cockade is his own re-write. And then, of course, there's the Cornish Green Cockade - a version in Kanow Kernow, and BBs recorded version (WGS300CD) which came from Mo Keast of Bodmin.
Tom

14 Feb 09 - 09:35 AM (#2566710)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: Malcolm Douglas

Thank you, Tom. That clears up the Bliss/Napper text, then. I'd guess that Tom Bliss used the 'blue' verse from the Purslow book in his collation. That in turn, incidentally, was also a collation; the singer who provided the tune in The Wanton Seed had only a fragmentary text which Frank augmented with material from other versions in the Hammond and Gardiner collections, some at least of which were 'white' cockade forms.

A direct connection between the 'blue' forms and the Gordon Riots seems pretty unlikely; the broadsides which feature blue cockades aren't very different from other forms, and the hapless 'hero' is an army recruit in all of them. Still, it does reinforce the point that cockades as badges of allegiance were the order of the day, and provides an example of one such that no doubt would have carried significance for a fair few people at that time.

Probably a lot of people who have only heard (or sung) the 'White Cockade' version familiar in the folk revival aren't aware of the background, and others think that it's a Jacobite reference. It probably was in the case of the rather older Scottish dance tune of the same name, but I don't know that there's any connection between that and the usual tune for this song, so there's no need to enlarge on it in this particular discussion.

The standard 'folk club' version usually has repeats: 'Oh my very, oh my very, oh my very, oh my very heart is broken ...' (etc). This isn't a modern innovation; some, though not all, traditionary versions feature it. It is a relic of what must have been a very popular 'glee' setting of the song for two or more voices. The Copper Family still sing it that way, but of course the majority of the singers encountered by the collectors of the early C20 were elderly and didn't have anybody to sing with any more in the old style, so their versions were 'solo'. Nevertheless, many retained the repeats, singing it all themselves; or as much as they could comfortably fit in.

14 Feb 09 - 12:08 PM (#2566803)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: The Borchester Echo

The lyrics Tom Bliss uses on Silverlode are what I reproduced above and which he credits as Trad, not Trad/Arr. He's usually reasonably careful about these things, and they are pretty much what the Witches sing (on Out Of Bed). As two of them were on the Newcastle Folk Degree at the time they did the arrangement, they were rather well placed to do an authentic one. What Show Of Hands do is very slowed down and dirge-like.

The reference to the Protestant Association using a blue cockade strikes me as slightly odd since it was previously associated with the Jacobites. So perhaps the colour has as much meaning as a football strip, possiby being changed for away matches.

14 Feb 09 - 12:27 PM (#2566808)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: wyrdolafr

Diane Easby wrote: "The reference to the Protestant Association using a blue cockade strikes me as slightly odd since it was previously associated with the Jacobites. So perhaps the colour has as much meaning as a football strip, possiby being changed for away matches."

I've no idea as to the reasoning behind the choice of colour of the cockade with regard to the Protestant Association, I just knew that Gordon, for whatever reason, used a blue one as a symbol. What I read about the Gordon riots was in a chapter in a book about Newgate prison rather than anything on religion, or nationalist politics per se.

Colours of anything - whether it's cockades, flags, nazi/bonehead bootlaces or football strips - are all a bit arbitrary when it comes down to it. Unless, of course, it's something obviously iconically-motivated like red representing blood or green representing fields or something.

14 Feb 09 - 12:30 PM (#2566816)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: The Sandman

could it not be,that someone misheard the colour,or forgot the words,a straight forward mistake,and the colour in the original had no significance.

14 Feb 09 - 12:31 PM (#2566818)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: Dead Horse

The origin of The Blue Cockade is that is used to be a white one, but the misses washed it along with my Chelsea football shirt!

14 Feb 09 - 05:22 PM (#2567023)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: Steve Gardham

The earliest date-identifiable version appears to have been printed by Evans in 1794, called 'The Light Blues' Bodleian Curzon b15 (83).
Robertson of Glasgow printed a longer version in 1800 'The Orange and Blue'. Angus of Newcastle printed 'The Blue Cockade' c1800. The first 2 are definitely set in Ireland. The White, Green, Yellow versions all appear to be later.

14 Feb 09 - 05:31 PM (#2567026)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: GUEST,Ebor_fiddler

Certainly the York volunteers in 1745 wore a Blue Cockade - we were loyalists, by the way!

14 Feb 09 - 06:10 PM (#2567057)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: The Sandman

jays ,you must be very old,what is the secret of your longevity.

15 Feb 09 - 08:37 AM (#2567392)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: The Sandman

so, if the use of the word blue renders the song meaningless.,
whereas White appears to have a meaning,I think I would prefer to choose to sing the version that has a meaning .

15 Feb 09 - 09:17 AM (#2567409)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: The Borchester Echo

Who said that?
The colour of the cockade appears not to define any specific political or religious affiliation in perpetuity.
The song exists nevertheless in a number of variant forms according to whichever regiment at whatever particular time you are talking about.

15 Feb 09 - 10:12 AM (#2567440)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: Malcolm Douglas

Just so. It doesn't 'render it meaningless' at all. As has been explained to you, Dick, cockades of various colours were used at various times to denote various allegiances, political or military. At the distance of a couple of centuries it isn't always possible to be precisely certain what manner of resonance (if any) any particular colour had for whoever wrote or sang any particular version of the song; though guesses can be made. On the whole, educated guesses are likely to be more helpful but, although mildly interesting, it isn't terribly important.

Diane's football analogy was a good one, though on a point of information white was the 'official' Jacobite colour, not blue. If you want to sing the song, you obviously pick the form that best suits your personal preference, and invest it with whatever subjective significance you like. Different people will make different choices, now as in the past. That's all there is to it.

15 Feb 09 - 10:55 AM (#2567470)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: GUEST,Phil Beer

As has just been clearly stated, the colour reference is simply to do with regimental colours and the song clearly, just like any good folk song, has been absorbed and adapted into its regional regimental variations. The version we do is a dorset one. We first knew it as the 'White' cockade as many others do. Yorkshire regiment I think? Correct me if I'm wrong. Most people have tended to interpret it as a marching song. We simply slowed it down. Steve Knightleys grandfather was in the Dorsets and was based in Dorchester for many years. He met Steves grandmother there. Thats why the song has such a strong resonance for us. As far as I'm comcerned, the most important thing about traditional song is its clear line to our forbears and how they might have thought and felt. Its not academic, its simply a fundamental part of us.

15 Feb 09 - 11:40 AM (#2567502)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: RTim

I sometimes, when I remember or am not forced by the audience
to sing the more common alternative,
sing the below chorus from Purslow's Constant Lovers (page 1)
to the popular song "A-Nutting We Will Go"

"Then a nutting we will go, a nutting we will go,
With a Blue Cockade all in our hats we'll cut a gallant show."

Frank says NOTHING about this chorus in his notes?

Tim Radford

15 Feb 09 - 12:29 PM (#2567559)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: The Sandman

Malcolm,why are you so patronising?
it is meaningless because we do not know what was meant when the song was written, [we are all making guesses ]I have no desire to sing this song , but was mildly interested,as I had never come across[In 40 years] the Blue cockade,only the White cockade .
my reason for opening this thread again,was:to find out from an informed source,if the Blue Cockade ,had any important significance.
Phil has given the information I was after ,so Malcolm good night , and God bless .

15 Feb 09 - 01:14 PM (#2567611)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: JohnB

I would think that Malcolm hardly threw the first stone dick.
Your original post states "I heard some idiot sing the blue cockade tonight" after an 11 year hiatus.
I believe that Malcolm is merely supporting your purported "idiot" who sang the song and is not here to defend himself but no doubt he will tell us himself.
I have never actually heard you sing, so I will refrain from calling you an idiot. Although from many postings I have read, you really do seem to be a litle hard of hearing at times.
Do you believe any publicity is good publicity?
JohnB.

15 Feb 09 - 01:51 PM (#2567643)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: The Sandman

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4K4-2laAOkI&feature=channel_page.
he was an idiot ,for other reasons,the inability to listen to the music[hornpipe],and to play a guitar ryhthym that was appropriate.

JohnB. yes, I do believe,publicity is important, the only bad publicity,is not to be there.
yes ,god bless and good night.

15 Feb 09 - 01:57 PM (#2567647)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: The Sandman

I asked a question? .
I had been at a session,that was ruined by two guitarists who played out of rhytyhm,and finally a Djembe drummer,who was playing his own rhythym,so I had my night ruined .
so I agree ,it would have been better if I hadnt called him an idiot[he was an idiot if he takes his guitar to a session and puts melody players off],but I bet you would have felt the same ,if you had been there .

15 Feb 09 - 02:55 PM (#2567694)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: wyrdolafr

To be fair, Captain Birdseye, with your initial post on the resurrecting this post wasn't about djembe drummers or guitarists playing out of rhythm, it was the fact that someone sang about a 'blue cockade' rather than the 'white cockade' which you're more familiar with.

There's no real intrinsic colour to a cockade. They come in all different colours, have been adopted by various organisations to stand for different things and are found in different regions all over the world.

I really don't see the problem here. The only time I could see it being an issue is if someone wants cockades in general to be white due to some attachment of the notion that it's a poke in the eye regarding some 200-250 year old 'anti-English' cause.

I'd like to hope that isn't the case here.

15 Feb 09 - 03:15 PM (#2567715)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: The Sandman

you Are right,people are free to sing what they want,and frequently do ,and frequently turn songs into nonsense via mondegreens[not the case here]
I had never come off across any other version,despite being involved in folk music for 40 years.,so was making enquiries
[John B] 33 YEARS of these have been on a professional basis. so as you can imagine I have heard a lot of songs,and played clubs from Bodmin up to Inverness,so was surprised to hear this variation for the first time.
mind you ,I think it is inferior to all the versions[only a subjective opinion ] I have heard of the White Cockade ,undoubtedly Show of Hands version would be very accomplished,but I havent heard them perform it,so cant comment .
[I would think that Malcolm hardly threw the first stone, dick]quote John.
I didnt throw any stones,I asked a question [which Phil answered] .I agree I shouldnt have phrased it like that,I have explained why .

15 Feb 09 - 03:34 PM (#2567733)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: The Borchester Echo

When the Witches moved into their famed Elswick flat there was a massive heap of junk mail addressed to the previous occupant, much of which was about cockades of many different colours.
Or so they said.

15 Feb 09 - 06:44 PM (#2567865)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: Steve Gardham

I'd like it placing on record that I have resisted the urge to respond with a cheap joke in response to Diane's posting. Fay and Bryony please note!

15 Feb 09 - 08:03 PM (#2567899)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: GUEST,leeneia

I just read a history of the American Revolution. When General Cornwallis surrendered to George Washington after the Battle of Yorktown in 1781, two tunes were played.

One was 'The World Turned Upside-Down,' and the other was 'The White Cockade.'

15 Feb 09 - 11:06 PM (#2567964)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: Malcolm Douglas

That seems to be a conflation of two separate stories about two different events. Both are probably apocryphal; but if 'The White Cockade' was really played it will have been the Scottish dance tune, not the later English song of the same name.

Things have evidently been going on here since I last looked in, but most of it needs no comment from me. Just a couple of trailing ends to pick up.

I had quite forgotten that I have a copy of Silverlode. Tom Bliss's comments there suggest that he got his 'Blue Cockade' from Show of Hands, and a quick trawl of YouTube shows that the two sets of words are essentially the same. Phil Beer isn't a frequent visitor here but if he does look back in, it would be interesting to know a little more about the words the band uses, particularly as he says they're from Dorset.

Roud lists only one Dorset example at the moment, and that's 'The Blue Cockade' in Frank Purslow's Wanton Seed, so it's among the things that Paul Sartin, Steve Gardham and I are looking into at the moment. As Frank printed it, it's quite a complicated collation from several sources (one Dorset and three Hampshire singers) very different from the Show of Hands set in some places and very close in others, so I'd be keen to hear more about they arrived at the song as they sing it now.

I don't know how a blue cockade found its way into a version of 'The Nutting Girl'. It's a strange old world.

16 Feb 09 - 12:28 AM (#2567990)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: GUEST,leeneia

if 'The White Cockade' was really played it will have been the Scottish dance tune...'

I'm sure it was. The dance tune, being in 6/8, would have provided a good beat for marching.

16 Feb 09 - 12:41 AM (#2567998)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: The Borchester Echo

I should lke it placed on record that the source of my information about postal deliveries in the West End of Newcastle came from Fay, Bryony, Gillie and Becky themselves. Steve Gardham please note.

16 Feb 09 - 07:37 AM (#2568132)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: The Sandman

the White Cockade dance tune ,I know, is not in 6/8 .
Just to make myself absolutely clear the person who sang the blue cockade was not an idiot because he sang blue cockade,but for other reasons,and yes I shouldnt have described him as an idiot.
when it talked about meaningless,I meant in a Political sense,of course it has a meaning to show of hands,as regards local and family sentiment. .

16 Feb 09 - 07:41 AM (#2568135)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: The Borchester Echo

The White Cockade dance tune is a polka in 2/4.

16 Feb 09 - 08:27 AM (#2568162)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: Jack Campin

I just read a history of the American Revolution. When General Cornwallis surrendered to George Washington after the Battle of Yorktown in 1781, two tunes were played.
One was 'The World Turned Upside-Down,' and the other was 'The White Cockade.'

The story about the World Turned Upside Down is an urban legend created long after the event. Google for it.

The White Cockade was the original tune for The Red Flag. Anyone know why it might have been chosen?

BTW I've never heard The White Cockade done as a 6/8 march but it seems to work:

  X:1
  T:The White Cockade
  Z:Jack Campin * http://www.campin.me.uk/
  M:6/8
  L:1/8
  Q:3/8=90
  K:G
  G|B2B B>AG|B2B B2g|d2B B>AG   |F2A A>GA|
    B2B B>AG|B2d g2a|b2g e>fg/e/|d2B B2 :|
  B|d2B g2B |d2d d2B|d2B g>fg   |a2A A>GA|
    B2B B>AG|B2d g2a|b2g e>fg/e/|d2B B2 :|


There is a Green Cockade in the American colonial and Civil War fife tunes file on my site. Who in American history wore those?

16 Feb 09 - 06:15 PM (#2568645)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: Steve Gardham

Surely the many Irish brigades.

16 Feb 09 - 09:19 PM (#2568752)
Subject: RE: Blue Cockade Origins ?
From: GUEST,leeneia

Another title for 'The World Turned Upside Down' is 'When the King Enjoys His Own Again.' Maybe that's what they were playing, Jack.

When I searched for a MIDI of the White Cockade, I found it on a web site which listed it under jigs. Maybe there's more than one tune called that.

09 Oct 17 - 02:01 PM (#3881169)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Blue Cockade
From: GUEST,David Rowlands

In the armies of the 1600s the Colonel of each regiment provided the uniform for his men, and so regiments wore coats of different colours. By the late seventeenth century, most English regiments wore red or crimson coats, but some wore blue or grey. Regiments in foreign armies, too, wore coats of various colours. The English Army (which became the British Army following the Act of Union with Scotland in 1707) often fought alongside Danish, Hanoverian, Prussian, etc, troops, all with different uniforms. Therefore it was necessary, when going into battle, to display a 'field sign' in their hats, to distinguish their own side from the enemy. There are numerous contemporary references in soldiers' memoirs to the issue of a sprig of oak leaves, or a piece of white paper, or a bunch of ribbons worn in the hat to indicate which soldiers were on their side. The bunch of ribbons was tidied up and became known as a cockade, and worn in the hat or cap it became an significant part of a soldier's uniform throughout the 18th and 19th centuries. Soldiers of the Stuart kings wore a white cockade. Following the overthrow of King James II of England in 1688, his followers ('Jacobites')continued to wear the white cockade. Soldiers of the French Royalist Army also wore a white cockade, until the French Revolution (1789), when it was replaced by a cockade of blue, white and red. From early in the 18th century, (there is evidence in a picture c1712) British soldiers have worn a black cockade in their hats or caps; it is still in evidence in certain forms of modern British Army uniform, eg on the glengarry headgear of Scottish regiments. Other national armies wore cockades of other colours. At the Battle of Culloden (1746) the Jacobites wore white cockades in their bonnets, while the British redcoats of King George II who were opposing them wore black cockades.
In the song, as the man is recruited into the British Army, the lyrics ought really to refer to a black cockade!

09 Oct 17 - 02:38 PM (#3881173)
Subject: RE: Origins: The Blue Cockade
From: RTim

Concerning the colour of Cockades as discussed in this thread - we have heard that there are Both - Blue and White used in collected songs.

There is also a version - collected by Baring-Gould from Robert Hard at South Brent, Devon in 1889 - where the Cockade is "Brave" - not coloured at all...so sing what you are comfortable with!!


Tim Radford

12 Oct 18 - 02:44 PM (#3956323)
Subject: Origins: The White/Blue/Green Cockade
From: Joe Offer

Thread #9379   Message #2967786
Posted By: GUEST,Gentle Gaint
18-Aug-10 - 08:51 AM
Thread Name: English Folk Songs
Subject: ADD Version: The White Cockade

Does anyone know the origin of a folk song called "The White Cockade".
It's one of my favorites.

THE WHITE COCKADE
One day as I was walking all o'er yon fields of moss,
I had no thoughts of enlisting till some soldiers did me cross,
They kindly did invite me to a flowing ball and down,
They advanced, they advanced me some money,
A shilling from the crown.

My true love he is handsome and he wears a white cockade,
He is a handsome young man, likewise a roving blade,
He is a handsome young man, he's gone to serve the King,
Oh my very, oh my very,
Heart is aching all the love of him.

My true love he is handsome and comely for to see,
And by a sad misfortune a soldier now is he,
I wish the man that's listed him might prosper night nor day,
And I wish that, I wish that,
The hollanders might sink him in the sea.

Then he took out his hankerchief to wipe my flowing eye,
Leave off your lamentations likewise your mournful sighs,
Leave off your grief and sorrow until I march o'er yon plain,
We'll be married, we'll be married,
In the springtime when I return again.

My true love he is listed and it's all for him I'll rove,
I'll write his name on every tree that grows in yonder grove,
My poor heart it does hallow, how my poor heart it does cry,
To remind me, to remind me,
Of my ploughboy, until the day I die.



Kate Rusby sings lyrics similar to this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lgw_8kapmQ
Here's the Traditional Ballad Index entry:

Summer Morning, The (The White/Blue/Green Cockade)

DESCRIPTION: "It was one summer morning, as I went o'er the moss, I had no thought of 'listing till the soldiers did me cross." But her love is in the army. She both laments and curses him. They meet; he dries her tears and says he will return; she vows to ramble
AUTHOR: unknown
EARLIEST DATE: 1820 (Kidson's mother according to Kidson-Tunes); 1846 (Dixon-Peasantry)
KEYWORDS: soldier love separation recruiting
FOUND IN: Britain(England(North,South))
REFERENCES (9 citations):
Dixon-Peasantry, Song #34, pp. 229-230, "The Summer's Morning" (1 text)
Bell-Combined, pp. 449-451, "The Summer's Morning" (1 text)
Kidson-Tunes, pp. 113-115, "The Summer Morning"; p. 115, "The White Cockade" (1 texts plus 1 fragment, 3 tunes)
Stokoe/Reay, pp. 68-69, "It Was One Summer Morning" (1 text, 1 tune)
Wiltshire-WSRO Wt 517, "Blue Cockade" (1 text)
CopperSeason, pp. 282-283, "The White Cockade" (1 text, 1 tune)
RoudBishop #20, "The White Cockade" (1 text, 1 tune)
DallasCruel, pp. 30-31, "The White Cockade" (1 text, 1 tune)
DT, COCKADE1*
Roud #191
File: StoR068

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The Ballad Index Copyright 2018 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle.

WHITE COCKADE (THEY ADVANCED ME)

'Twas on a summer's morning as I rode o'er the moss,
I had no thought of enlisting, till some soldiers did me cross.
They kindly did invite me to a flowing bowl of grog
They advanced me (they advanced me)
They advanced me (they advanced me)
They advanced me some money, a shilling from the crown.

Oh yes, my love's enlisted and he wears a white cockade,
He is a handsome young man, a rash and roving blade.
He is a handsome young man, and he's gone to serve his king
Oh! my very (Oh! my very)
Oh! my very (Oh! my very)
Oh! my very heart is aching all for the love of him.

As I roved out one morning, as I wandered o'er yon lea,
My love was tall and handsome, but a soldier now is he
I hope the man that 'listed him may suffer night and day.
How I wish that (How I wish that)
How I wish that (How I wish that)
How I wish that the Hollanders would sink him in the sea.

Oh may he never prosper, and may he never thrive
On anything he turns his hand as long as he's alive.
May the very ground he treads on, the grass refuse to grow
'Cause he's been the ('Cause he's been the)
'Cause he's been the ('Cause he's been the)
'Cause he's been the only cause of my sorrow,grief and woe.

Then he took out his handkerchief and wiped her flowing eye,
Leave off your lamentations, likewise your mournful cries.
Leave off your lamentations while I march o'er the plains,
We'll be married (We'll be married)
We'll be married (We'll be married)
We'll be married in Newcastle when I return again.

Oh yes, my love's enlisted, and for him I will rove
And carve his name on every tree that buds in yonder grove.
The huntsman he will holler and the hounds will loudly cry
To remind me (To remind me)
To remind me (To remind me)
To remind me of my ploughboy until the day I die.

@recruit @war @love
filename[ COCKADE1
TUNE FILE: COCKADE1
CLICK TO PLAY
RG

THE SOLDIER'S FAREWELL (White Cockade II)

It was one Monday morning
As I walked o'er the moss,
I never thought of 'listing,
Till the soldiers did me cross;
They kindly did invite me to pledge the ale so brown,
They advanced me some money,
They advanced me some money,
They advanced me some money,
Ten guineas and a crown.

Then, as I wore the white cockade
I marched into the town
To bid farewell to all my friends
Before I did go down,
Beneath a shady willow I saw my sweetheart lay
Upon a mossy pillow (3x)
And heard her, sighing, say:

'Tis true my love is 'listed
And he wears a white cockade.
He is a handsome young man
Besides a roving blade;
He is a handsome young man, he is gone to serve the king
My very heart is breaking (3x)
All for the love of him.

Oh, may he never prosper
Oh, may he never thrive,
Nor anything he takes in hand
As long as he's alive;
May the ground he treads fall under him, the grass he bends ne'er grow
Since he has gone and left me (3x)
In sorrow, grief and woe.

I pulled out my handkerchief
And wiped her flowing tears.
O, take this in remembrance
And calm your groundless fears,
And keep you in good company while I march o'er the plain,
Then I'll be married to my love (3x}
When I return again.

From Room for Company, Palmer
@soldier @parting @recruit
filename[ COCKADE2
TUNE FILE: COCKADE2
CLICK TO PLAY
RG
oct96

12 Oct 18 - 03:05 PM (#3956326)
Subject: ADD Version: The White Cockade (Rusby)
From: Joe Offer

Here are the lyrics Kate Rusby sings:

THE WHITE COCKADE

One day as I was walking all o'er yon fields of moss
I had no thoughts of enlisting till some soldiers did me cross
They kindly did invite me to a flowing ball and down
They advan-ced, they advan-ced me some money
A shilling from the crown

My true love he is 'listed and he wears a white cockade
He is a handsome young man, likewise a roving blade
He is a handsome young man, he's gone to serve the King
Oh my very, oh my very
Heart is aching all the love of him

My true love he is handsome and comely for to see
And by a sad misfortune a soldier now is he
I wish the man that's listed him might prosper night nor day
And I wish that, I wish that
The hollanders might sink him in the sea

Then he took out his handkerchief to wipe my flowing eye
Leave off your lamentations, likewise your mournful sighs
Leave off your grief and sorrow until I march o'er yon plain
We'll be married, we'll be married
In the springtime when I return again

My true love he is handsome and it's all for him I'll rove
I'll write his name on every tree that grows in yonder grove
My poor heart it does hallow, how my poor heart it does cry
To remind me, to remind me
Of my ploughboy, until the day I die

Source: https://genius.com/Kate-rusby-the-white-cockade-lyrics (verified with recording, and I made a few corrections)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Lgw_8kapmQ

12 Oct 18 - 03:38 PM (#3956335)
Subject: RE: Origins: The White/Blue/Green Cockade
From: Steve Gardham

Even by 1790 there were lots of widely varying versions. In the earliest dated copy I have (1794) by Evans of London, the soldiers were leaving Limerick where they were recruited, the cockade was a black one, and at the end the girl claims she is forsaken for The Scarlet and the Blue.

The song has obviously been rewritten many times for different regions and regiments.

13 Oct 18 - 03:59 AM (#3956400)
Subject: RE: Origins: The White/Blue/Green Cockade
From: Acorn4

Geoff Lakeman did a version of the "Green Cockade" when we saw him at Saltburn and it is now on his CD.

He thought this might be Irish influence with the connection to Cornwall.

This version has a short chorus.


The Green Cockade

13 Oct 18 - 09:11 AM (#3956432)
Subject: RE: Origins: The White/Blue/Green Cockade
From: GUEST,Bob Coltman

There is a distinct "White Cockade," but as it was sung by (?I think) John and Lucy Allison, with John's delightful penchant for dressing up old fragments, it may have no traditional standing at all. It begins

A scarlet coat and a white cockade,
Our passport to the fair ...

Anyone know where this Cockade song came from?

Bob

15 Oct 18 - 01:45 PM (#3956776)
Subject: RE: Origins: The White/Blue/Green Cockade
From: GUEST,Some bloke

This is of course a discussion that will forever rattle on.

Phil Beer made a good post up the thread saying a Dorset version had it in blue but a more Northern rendition may be white. The white rose of Yorkshire presumably, although I would expect those who work in the butty and treacle mines to sing of the red cockade if that were the case.

Two observations here, and I sing it in the white, by the way.

Cockades of different colour and design did eventually denote regimental affiliation although we know the gist of this song to predate the national centrally controlled army. To this day, some regiments have a cockade behind a beret badge and the ribbon around peak caps and sailor hats are throwbacks to cockades. In that sense, a blue cockade denotes RAF!

White was easy and cheap to make. Blue dye that stays fast was rather expensive when recognisable versions of this song were first seeing the light of day and recruiting sergeants were handing them out to be worn with civilian clothes until call up. Another reason for white as it would stand out.