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15 Aug 01 - 01:40 AM (#528375) Subject: Twa Magicians From: robinia Anyone out there ever wondered what this ballad is all about? I've a web site (<reenchantmentofsex.com>) that takes it seriously and as critical evidence for a reexamination of so-called "sexist" thinking. I'd love some intelligent feedback ... |
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15 Aug 01 - 02:56 AM (#528386) Subject: RE: Twa Magicians From: pavane Better check the FAQ thread to find out how to post URL's! Don't ues &gr and < in normal text, they get interpreted as HTML |
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15 Aug 01 - 06:23 AM (#528417) Subject: RE: Twa Magicians From: Wolfgang The website robinia had meant to link to. Wolfgang |
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15 Aug 01 - 12:30 PM (#528541) Subject: RE: Twa Magicians From: Mrrzy Thanks, Wolfgang. Robinia, very interesting. I point you towards Pepe le Piew (or however it's spelled) for another look at rape in entertainment. However, I don't think the "he looked into the window" ever wins over the "she looked out of the window" - whereas in pepe le pew, at the end, the girl cat is always in some position where she can no longer get away from pepe, and since she hasn't fought till then, one is left with the distinct impression that she is **** out of luck. I find myself minding anything where the male refuses to take No for an answer. But then again, there is a fine line between seduction and not taking No for an answer... and I am all for seduction, much more romantic than just deciding to hop into bed without being seduced. Or is seduction always a bad thing? Does the word imply anything negative to anyone else? In song or story? |
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15 Aug 01 - 12:53 PM (#528571) Subject: RE: Twa Magicians From: masato sakurai Isn't this article interesting? |
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15 Aug 01 - 01:14 PM (#528597) Subject: RE: Twa Magicians From: masato sakurai Oops, "this article" was the same as Robinia and Wolfgang's. Then, another piece of info. Emily B. Lyle wrote a paper, "'The Twa Magicians' as Conception Story" (Scottish Studies 23 (1979), 79-82), and, according to Richmond's Ballad Scholarship (Garland, 1989, p. 201), suggestes that "The Twa Magicians" may well be a form of a conception story that has a long history in Indo-European cultures. I myself haven't read the paper. |
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15 Aug 01 - 01:48 PM (#528629) Subject: RE: Twa Magicians From: GUEST,CapriUni Hello, Robinia! I believe that the contest outlined in "The Twa Magicians" doesn't relate a mortal "rape" in the way we see it today, but rather, the *divine* shifting of powers back and forth as winter changes to spring. According to the article "Beltane" in /Funk and Wagnall's Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology, and Legend/ (1972), the romantic marriage between the Lord and Lady of May that we associate with May Day today started out as a *battle* between the Wild (Green)Man and the Hag of Winter, which held the forces of life deep within the earth. After the battle, the Hag of winter is transformed into the maiden of spring, their sexual union is celebrated, and the forces of life are released. (And if you've ever lived in cool, temporate climates, you know the transition between winter and spring can lead to some pretty fierce weather before warmth *really* settles in -- as shape-shifty as the magicians in the song). One of the forms the Wildman takes, btw, is of a blacksmith -- sacred entity that tends the fires of life. Seen in another light, this "battle" can been seen as a test -- performed by the lady to ensure that the smith is worthy of her -- Hello, Robinia! I believe that the contest outlined in "The Twa Magicians" doesn't relate a mortal "rape" in the way we see it today, but rather, the *divine* shifting of powers back and forth as winter changes to spring. According to the article "Beltane" in /Funk and Wagnall's Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology, and Legend/ (1972), the romantic marriage between the Lord and Lady of May that we associate with May Day today started out as a *battle* between the Wild (Green)Man and the Hag of Winter, which held the forces of life deep within the earth. After the battle, the Hag of winter is transformed into the maiden of spring, their sexual union is celebrated, and the forces of life are released. (And if you've ever lived in cool, temporate climates, you know the transition between winter and spring can lead to some pretty fierce weather before warmth *really* settles in -- as shape-shifty as the magicians in the song). One of the forms the Wildman takes, btw, is of a blacksmith -- sacred entity that tends the fires of life. Seen in another light, this "battle" can been seen as a test -- performed by the lady to ensure that the smith is worthy of her -- Hello, Robinia! I believe that the contest outlined in "The Twa Magicians" doesn't relate a mortal "rape" in the way we see it today, but rather, the *divine* shifting of powers back and forth as winter changes to spring. According to the article "Beltane" in /Funk and Wagnall's Standard Dictionary of Folklore, Mythology, and Legend/ (1972), the romantic marriage between the Lord and Lady of May that we associate with May Day today started out as a *battle* between the Wild (Green)Man and the Hag of Winter, which held the forces of life deep within the earth. After the battle, the Hag of winter is transformed into the maiden of spring, their sexual union is celebrated, and the forces of life are released. (And if you've ever lived in cool, temporate climates, you know the transition between winter and spring can lead to some pretty fierce weather before warmth *really* settles in -- as shape-shifty as the magicians in the song). One of the forms the Wildman takes, btw, is of a blacksmith -- sacred entity that tends the fires of life. Seen in another light, this "battle" can been seen as a test -- performed by the lady to ensure that the smith is worthy of her. In the version of the song that appears in /Buchan's Ballads of the North of Scotland/ (I, 24; Motherwell's MS., p. 570.), the final verse goes: 14 Then she became a silken plaid, And stretchd upon a bed, And he became a green covering, And gaind her maidenhead. . . . There is no indications in the song up to that point that hinted that couldn't still choose whatever shape she wanted, and if you want to avoid sex, turning yourself into a blanket and stretching out on a bed is not the way to go. However, if she had deemed that the Smith had passed her test, then it would be a clear indication of a "yes". (BTW, the motif of a "battle" between man and woman prior to sexual union -- either in the form of shape-shifting or riddling [or both]-- is a fairly common one. See the Grimms' tale "The Sea-Hare" [story #91], and the ballad "Three Dishes and Six Questions" for other examples). Ann
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