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15 Aug 01 - 12:16 PM (#528527) Subject: How Shall I Your True Love: S'peare song From: GUEST,Ian HP The song How Shall I Your True Love Know comes, apparently, from Shakespeare's Hamlet. However, I can't find it in my copy of Hamlet. Did Shakespeare write it, or borrow it for the play? If it's not in the text (unless I've just missed it - entirely possible) has it become a tradition to include it, or was it suggested in a footnote? Any clues or info? |
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15 Aug 01 - 12:22 PM (#528533) Subject: RE: How Shall I Your True Love: S'peare song From: MMario Act IV Scene v |
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15 Aug 01 - 01:12 PM (#528594) Subject: RE: How Shall I Your True Love: S'peare song From: Sorcha Click hereand read the whole scene. The song is broken up a bit, mixed into the dialog. |
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15 Aug 01 - 01:40 PM (#528616) Subject: RE: How Shall I Your True Love: S'peare song From: GUEST,Ian HP Thanks, folks. Does anyone know if Shakespeare wrote the song? I know he borrowed some songs, but he may have written this. I've heard this sung. Is there any way of authenticating the tune, or should I assume the sings used a floating melody? |
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15 Aug 01 - 02:03 PM (#528646) Subject: RE: How Shall I Your True Love: S'peare song From: Matthew Edwards Shakespeare's song is a variant of the Walsingham ballad which features a pilgrim and his dead lover (although in this case the lady is mourning her dead lover). As the priory at Walsingham was destroyed in 1538, under the orders of Henry VIII, the original ballad must predate this. There is a poem attributed to Sir Walter Raleigh on this theme which begins: As you came from the holy land Of Walsingham Met you not with my true love By the way as you came? How shall I know your true love That have met many one As I went to the holy land That have come, that have gone? Ophelia sings snatches from various lost ballads in this affecting scene, as well as quoting some odd pieces of folklore. |
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15 Aug 01 - 08:29 PM (#528914) Subject: RE: How Shall I Your True Love: S'peare song From: Matthew Edwards Jan, this is a very intriguing question you have asked. There are various ballads related to this; firstly, one dated to 1465 or 1485 known as the Pynson ballad which recounts the founding of Walsingham priory, secondly there is an old ballad tune Walsingham (there is an abc of this tune in Bruce Olson's Ballad Index #491) Tune index where it is noted as a tune to a song As I Went To Wlsingham referenced az ZN284 in his Broadside Ballad Index. Probably the Ophelia song in Hamlet, and the verses attributed to Sir Walter Raleigh are related to this. There is also a fascinating anonymous poem of circa 1600 lamenting the destruction of Walsingham which ends: Weepe weepe o Walsingham Whose dayes are nightes Blessinges turned to blasphemies Holy deedes to dispites, Sinne is wher our Ladie sate Heaven turned is to Hell. Sathan sittes wher our Lord did swaye Walsingham oh farewell. I would hazard a guess that the song which goes: I know my love by his way of walking I know my love dressed in his jersey blue. I know my love by his way of talking, And if my love should leave me, what would I do? is probably also related. It should be in the DT, if and when that is accessible. If you have access to a good library I think you should be able to find articles by F W Sternfeld on Shakespeare's use of songs in his plays. |
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16 Aug 01 - 08:08 PM (#529750) Subject: RE: How Shall I Your True Love: S'peare song From: McGrath of Harlow The fact that the Tudor Taliban ransacked Walsingham in 1538 wouldn't necessarily have meant a song about it mightn't have come into existence later, or an earlier one modified. And Shakespeare came from a recusant family.
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18 Aug 01 - 11:08 AM (#530773) Subject: RE: How Shall I Your True Love: S'peare song From: Malcolm Douglas A long set of As I came from Walsingham appeared in Thomas Deloney's The Garland of Good Will (c.1590s); text and notes (which also refer to other variants, including Shakespeare's) may be seen at Greg Lindahl's Sixteenth Century Ballads: A work in progress...: |
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18 Aug 01 - 01:35 PM (#530820) Subject: RE: How Shall I Your True Love: S'peare song From: McGrath of Harlow I note in the introduction the author refers to this, and says of it "Walsingham ...is almost certainly built up on a traditional foundation."
Which seems likely enough, in the light of his pretty ferocious celebration of gruesome public mass executions of Catholics, as shown in a couple of the ballads in the Miscellaneous Ballads section.
I see there is another referance to Walsingham in The Garland of Goodwill, in a Dialogue between Truth and Ignorance.(Ignorance being a Papist of course):
Ignorance
But our Lady of Walsingham was zure an holy Zaint:
Truth.
Such Saints are well agreeing,
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18 Aug 01 - 03:49 PM (#530856) Subject: RE: How Shall I Your True Love: S'peare song From: McGrath of Harlow Which seems likely enough, in the light of his pretty ferocious celebration of gruesome public mass executions of Catholics, as shown in a couple of the ballads in the Miscellaneous Ballads section.
That's ambiguous - of course the "his" here refers to Thomas Deloney, not Greg Lindahl. |
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18 Aug 01 - 03:52 PM (#530861) Subject: RE: How Shall I Your True Love: S'peare song From: GUEST [ZN609] The Contented Couckould.
Come hither thou seaman brave
And metest thou not my true Loue
..........
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18 Aug 01 - 11:33 PM (#530964) Subject: RE: How Shall I Your True Love: S'peare song From: GUEST,leeneia I just love it when Mudcatters are erudite. |
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19 Aug 01 - 06:22 AM (#531071) Subject: RE: How Shall I Your True Love: S'peare song From: Matthew Edwards Thanks GUEST,(is that you Bruce?), for The Contented Couckould. Anyone want to comment on the notion that when Shakespeare want to portray Ophelia as having completely lost her wits, he has her enter singing folk songs! |
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19 Aug 01 - 05:24 PM (#531328) Subject: RE: How Shall I Your True Love: S'peare song From: Ian HP Wow, thanks all. I am now in the middle of following up these wonderful leads. Very grateful. Any more?! |
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19 Aug 01 - 07:18 PM (#531398) Subject: RE: How Shall I Your True Love: S'peare song From: GUEST There are many references to related texts and fragments (most quoted) in Peter J. Seng's 'The Vocal Songs in the Plays of Shakespeare', 1967. However, it's imposible to get precise dates for early copies of related texts, so it's not really possible to find out what the original text really was. Seng reprinted the copy in the Percy Folio MS (c 1630-45). The earliest extant copy (Bodleian) of 'The Garland of Goodwill' is of 1631, but it's imperfect, and the "Walsingham" text is missing from that copy. The "Contented Couckould" dates between 1601 and 1626, but 'Hamlet' is of 1599-1601, so that broadside version is probably not Shakespeare's source.
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20 Aug 01 - 01:05 PM (#531868) Subject: RE: How Shall I Your True Love: S'peare song From: Matthew Edwards It is worth noting that the text of Hamlet given on the website linked to above is defective. Admittedly the play is notorious for its textual problems, but it is careless, to say the least, for the site owners not to indicate the sources of their text. This would not matter so much perhaps, except that in the very song under discussion, the second to last line is wrongly given as: "Which bewept to the grave did go" This should read the opposite: "Which bewept to the grave did not go" This reading appeared in all the original texts (Quarto 1 &2, and the First Folio),but was "corrected" by Alexander Pope as being unmetrical. Why Shakespeare should have inserted this extra syllable into the line is a matter for interpretation; perhaps it is a pointed comment by Ophelia that her father was buried in secrecy "hugger-mugger", without anyone to mourn him. Some of the other songs in this scene are intriguing.Tomorrow is Saint Valentine's day is a typical night-visiting song with the usual roles reversed in that is is the female who appears at the window pleading to come in.The fragment: They bore him bare-faced on the bier Hey non nonny, nonny hey nonny, And in his grave rained many a tear [A-down, a-down, a-down-a] has the ring of an old ballad, especially in the alliteration of the first line;bore/bare/bier. The Bonny sweet Robin comes from a common 16th century ballad, while the dirge And will a not come again? is another otherwise unknown song. Anyway, good luck with your searches Ian. |
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20 Aug 01 - 03:12 PM (#531957) Subject: RE: How Shall I Your True Love: S'peare song From: Ian HP My Norton Shakespeare says in a footnote that "not" was inserted into the song by WS to mirror the fate of Polonius, though I've never really understood how this is so. The tune - as sung by Silly Sisters and by Jean Simmons as Ophelia in Laurence Olivier's film version - how far back does that go - to Shakespeare's time or before - anyone know? |
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13 Feb 03 - 05:16 AM (#889283) Subject: RE: How Shall I Your True Love: S'peare song From: rich-joy these are the words as sung by Roy Bailey (album c. 1971) : HOW SHOULD I YOUR TRUE LOVE KNOW How should I your true love know, from another one? By his cockle hat and staff And his sandal shoon. He is dead and gone, lady, he is dead and gone At his head a grass-green turf And at his heels a stone. White his shroud as mountain snow Larded all with flowers That bewept to the grave did go With true love a-showers. How should I your true love know, from another one? By his cockle hat and staff And his sandal shoon. Roy's reference was "Seeds of Love" edited by Stepehn Sedle (? - my photocopy becomes unreadable here!!) Anyone able to comment on the tune yet, as IanHP asked above too? Cheers! R-J |
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13 Feb 03 - 06:23 AM (#889317) Subject: RE: How Shall I Your True Love: S'peare song From: masato sakurai The Seeds of Love, edited by Stephen Sedley (Essex Music Limited, 1967, p. 174). |
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04 Nov 10 - 05:39 PM (#3023746) Subject: How Shall I Your True Love Know (Shakespeare) From: Genie Here's at least one tune: Sandy and Elizabeth LaPrelle - "How Shall I Your True Love Know?" |
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05 Nov 10 - 04:13 AM (#3024059) Subject: RE: Origin: How Shall I Your True Love Know (Shakesp'r From: Dave Hanson According to Stephen Sedley in 'The Seeds Of Love' the tune came down through the theatrical tradition and may be 16th or 17th century. Sedley, incidently was a High Court Judge. Dave H |
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05 Nov 10 - 04:32 AM (#3024067) Subject: RE: Origin: How Shall I Your True Love Know (Shakesp'r From: MGM·Lion ... Lord Justice Sedley: Later tho, Dave; not at time he compiled Seeds Of Love. He was tho already at the bar with a flourishing practice. Man of parts indeed. Any info on antecedents of Ophelia's other song in same scene, "Tomorrow is St Valentine's Day"? Interested btw in above point that Shax indicated Ophelia's madness by having her sing folksongs! Are we all mad, do you think? Or in any event would Will have thought so? Any views on this? ~Michael~ |
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05 Nov 10 - 04:52 AM (#3024077) Subject: RE: Origin: How Shall I Your True Love Know (Shakesp'r From: GUEST,baz parkes FWIW I've always thought of them as songs she would have heard in her childhood...a time of innocence, perhaps, before the world around her, a world of absolutes, fell apart. I have no academic justification for this at all...it's just very pleasant to speculate without the prospect of the threat of an academic sausage machine at the end.. Baz |
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05 Nov 10 - 05:05 AM (#3024084) Subject: RE: Origin: How Shall I Your True Love Know (Shakesp'r From: MGM·Lion But Baz, are they not rather unlikely and inappropriate for childhood songs? ~ far from 'innocent', esp the St Valentine's one. I've often, somewhat idly and facetiously, speculated that perhaps she got them from her brother who worked in the wicked city of Paris! ~Michael~ |
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05 Nov 10 - 05:14 AM (#3024091) Subject: RE: Origin: How Shall I Your True Love Know (Shakesp'r From: GUEST But as children,we hear, remember,and absorb without fully understanding don't we? I'd forgotten how much I enjoyed this sort of speculation :-) Baz |
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05 Nov 10 - 05:18 AM (#3024093) Subject: RE: Origin: How Shall I Your True Love Know (Shakesp'r From: MGM·Lion Depends how sheltered a childhood one had, I suppose, Baz. I like this sort of speculation too ~~ so will aver that I cannot see Polonius as the sort of father who would suffer his innocent daughter to be exposed to such adult iniquity! ~M~ |
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05 Nov 10 - 05:32 AM (#3024100) Subject: RE: Origin: How Shall I Your True Love Know (Shakesp'r From: GUEST,baz parkes may need to root through the garage to find a text...:-)) Baz |
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05 Nov 10 - 08:04 AM (#3024189) Subject: RE: Origin: How Shall I Your True Love Know (Shakesp'r From: GUEST,gary Waller There is an authoritative account on the Walsingham ballad and its offshoots in a number of the essays in Janes and Waller (eds). Walsingham in Literature and Culture (Ashgate 2009), especially the essays by Bradley Brookshire (on the music) and Alison Chapman (on the poetry). |
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06 Nov 10 - 05:36 AM (#3024966) Subject: RE: Origin: How Shall I Your True Love Know (Shakesp'r From: GUEST,baz parkes @mike Unless of course he was that bound up with ensuring the success of Leontes, he entrusted Ophelia to a nurse...one he hired from Verona, say... Baz |
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06 Nov 10 - 04:17 PM (#3025388) Subject: RE: Origin: How Shall I Your True Love Know (Shakesp'r From: MGM·Lion Baz ~ suspect you meant Laertes. Leontes is in The Winter's Tale! ~M~ |