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29 Aug 01 - 09:00 PM (#537831) Subject: Litotes in song From: Suffet A litotes (LIE-toe-teez) is an intentional double negative used as a rhetorical device to express a weak or otherwise qualified affirmative. An example would be "I wouldn't call his situation hopeless." That's not quite the same as saying "I would call his sitaution hopeful." Bob Dylan penned a classic litotes in "Don't Think Twice" when he wrote, "I ain't saying you treated me unkind..." Can any 'Catter out there come up with another litotes in folk or folk-like song lyrics? --- Steve |
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29 Aug 01 - 09:32 PM (#537841) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Murray MacLeod . Litotes, a particular form of understatement, is generated by denying the opposite or contrary of the word which otherwise would be used. Depending on the tone and context of the usage, litotes either retains the effect of understatement, or becomes an intensifying expression. Compare the difference between these statements:
Heat waves are common in the summer.
This kind of writing may be termed not improperly the comedy of romance. . . .
We saw him throw the buckets of paint at his canvas in disgust, and the result did not perfectly represent his subject, Mrs. Jittery.
Hitting that telephone pole certainly didn't do your car any good. A figure lean or corpulent, tall or short, though deviating from beauty, may still have a certain union of the various parts, which may contribute to make them on the whole not unpleasing. --Sir Joshua Reynolds He who examines his own self will not long remain ignorant of his failings. Overall the flavors of the mushrooms, herbs, and spices combine to make the dish not at all disagreeable to the palate. But note that, as George Orwell points out in "Politics and the English Language," the "not un-" construction (e.g., "not unwilling") should not be used indiscriminately. Rather, find an opposite quality which as a word is something other than the quality itself with an "un" attached. For instance, instead of, "We were not unvictorious," you could write, "We were not defeated," or "We did not fail to win," or something similar. Hope you don't mind Steve, just fleshing out your litotes definition with an excerpt from a Google search, Still can't think of any litotic folk-songs, however. Murray
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30 Aug 01 - 12:43 AM (#537936) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: wysiwyg Don't make no nevermind to me. ~S~ |
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30 Aug 01 - 07:05 AM (#538015) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Suffet It's an example from jazz, but "Ain't Misbehavin'" is certainly as good a litotes as any. The music was by Thomas "Fats" Waller and Harry Brooks. But the litotic lyricist was one Andy Razaf. "Ain't Misbehavin'" was first published in 1929. --- Steve |
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30 Aug 01 - 07:53 AM (#538022) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Wolfgang Here are a few from the DT:
You have to pluck them fresh, if they're fresh it's not unpleasant, (pheasant plucker) It is easy to find dozens by a websearch in modern no-folk lyrics. I guess they are getting rarer by oral way of preservation. Wolfgang |
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30 Aug 01 - 11:56 AM (#538171) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Steve Parkes I think we're getting a little off the path here, guys. "Ain't misbehavin'" isn't litotes, neither is "no unkind words". Litotes is the converse of hyperbole: it's the deliberate use of understatement for literary or rhetorical effect, so "not half bad" qualifies, as does "pretty good" when you really mean "very good"; you don't have to have the counter-negation "not un-". A double negative signifies an affirmative, if you're a little pedantic, or a negative in most colloquial speech. Curiously, there's no such thing as a double affirmative signifying a negative. Yeah, yeah! Steve |
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30 Aug 01 - 12:10 PM (#538175) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: sophocleese Thanks for giving me name for something I use off and on, I never knew it. I cannot think of a song example off the top of my head but I'll probably spend ages today running through lyrics in my head. |
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30 Aug 01 - 12:23 PM (#538184) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Wolfgang Cause there's not many men that done the things that you've done. (Song for Woody) Wolfgang |
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30 Aug 01 - 12:25 PM (#538186) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Wolfgang I'll give the Law no little shock, remember what I say (Jim Jones in Botany bay) Wolfgang |
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30 Aug 01 - 12:28 PM (#538189) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Kim C Hmpf. I feel cheated now. I have a college degree in the language arts and I never heard the term "litotes" before. What were they teaching me anyhow? My education has not been unhelpful, however. ;-) |
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30 Aug 01 - 12:41 PM (#538201) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: GUEST The term is "litote"; litotes refers to more than one of them. But it isn't that bad of a mistake. |
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30 Aug 01 - 01:00 PM (#538218) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Wolfgang Yeah, GUEST, and if you mean the Greek Hell you have to say 'Hade' and only if you mean several of them you say 'Hades'. Some Greek words end with an 's' in the singular. Wolfgang |
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30 Aug 01 - 01:01 PM (#538219) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Kim C According to my dictionary, it's litotes, with the plural also being litotes. Not unlike the word "sheep." ;-) |
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30 Aug 01 - 01:23 PM (#538237) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Wolfgang But the idea is suitable for extension: Professor A has discovered several new species, professor B only has discovered one new specie. 'Where will you spend Christma this year?' 'Florida, as all the christmas in the last couple of years.' Wolfgang |
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30 Aug 01 - 01:38 PM (#538244) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Kim C Isn't "specie" a word that has to do with something not unlike money or coinage? |
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30 Aug 01 - 01:58 PM (#538254) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Mary in Kentucky Is this one from Arkansas Traveler? My cabin never leaks when it doesn't rain.
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30 Aug 01 - 02:19 PM (#538274) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Kim C Since my phone still ain't ringin I assume it still ain't you... does that count? I'm sure there's a bunch in my John Prine collection but I just can't think of any offhand... If it weren't so expensive I'd wish I was dead (?) |
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30 Aug 01 - 02:52 PM (#538297) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Alice All strangers, they are no friends to me (Lakes of Ponchartrain)
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30 Aug 01 - 02:57 PM (#538301) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Podger Do you folks really analyze songs to this extent? |
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30 Aug 01 - 03:21 PM (#538325) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Kim C Words are often fun to play with, and spotting certain words, or phrases, in songs, is something of a game. |
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30 Aug 01 - 04:18 PM (#538378) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: GUEST Wolfgang: I know Greek and you are most definitely incorrect. Incidentally, litote.com was available as of a week ago and I almost snagged it but decided I own too many sites already. Not a bad name.
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30 Aug 01 - 04:21 PM (#538383) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: GUEST Other interesting figures of speech are defined here.
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30 Aug 01 - 04:55 PM (#538407) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Kim C litotes litotes (lì´te-têz´, lît´e-, lì-to´têz) noun plural litotes A figure of speech consisting of an understatement in which an affirmative is expressed by negating its opposite, as in This is no small problem. [Greek litotês, from litos, plain.] Excerpted from The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Third Edition © 1996 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Electronic version licensed from INSO Corporation; further reproduction and distribution in accordance with the Copyright Law of the United States. All rights reserved. |
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30 Aug 01 - 08:06 PM (#538546) Subject: Am behavin' From: Suffet "Ain't Misbehavin'" certainly is a litotes. In fact, it is worthy of being a dictionary example. The protagonist affirms that he IS behaving by negating its opposite. |
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30 Aug 01 - 08:11 PM (#538555) Subject: Am behavin' From: Suffet "Ain't Misbehavin'" certainly is a litotes. In fact, it is worthy of being the dictionary example. The protagonist affirms that he is behaving by negating the opposite. --- Steve |
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31 Aug 01 - 03:24 AM (#538766) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Steve Parkes So would "go, and sin no more" count? As an alternative to "go, and be good", maybe? Oh my goodness, I think we may have a literary grey area here. If someone who misbehaves regularly, a persistant malefator, a recidivist (some nice long words for you!) decides to be good for a while, he can say, without understatement (i.e. not litotically), "I ain't misbehavin'". (Bad guys tend to talk like that.) Onthe other hand, a faithful lover, with some literary pretension and a sparkle in his eye, might prefer to says "ain't misbehavin'" in preference to "am behavin'"; or "being faithful", if he wanted to be prosaic. Must be a contextual thing. Steve P.s. Podger--we're not really analysing songs, we're looking for an excuse to fight! |
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31 Aug 01 - 07:12 AM (#538825) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Suffet To be sung to the tune of FRÈRE JACQUES... When she signals, when she signals, To the boys, to the boys, I ain't unavailable, I ain't unavailable, That's a lie to tease, litotes! © Stephen L. Suffet 2001 So how many literay devices went into that rhyme? --- Steve |
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31 Aug 01 - 09:06 AM (#538861) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Steve Parkes Does "barefaced cheek" count? |
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31 Aug 01 - 09:17 AM (#538866) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Steve Parkes Well, let's see ... The repetitions don't count, because they're a feature of the verse structure "The boys" is a ... thingy--where we're not referring to any specific boys, but any generalised boys either indidvidually or in groups "I ain't unavailable" is litotes "lie to tease" is a pun That's three; have I missed any? Yes!! Just realised: scansion--the deliberate insertion of extra syllables in lines three and four for comic effect Steve |
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02 Sep 01 - 05:20 AM (#540089) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Wolfgang GUEST, I know greek as well, but I can't display greek symbols here. Here's a page displaying the original greek expression in Greek letters and you can easily spot the end sigma there. Wolfgang |
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02 Sep 01 - 10:30 AM (#540164) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: GUEST,leeneia One of my favorite moments in detective fiction occurred in a Dick Francis novel. The narrator, as usual a former jockey, recalled his English teacher, who said, "For heaven's sake,when you want to say what something is, don't say what it's not." Since I feel a mild irritation every time I have to stop reading and untangle a litotes, I liked that.
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02 Sep 01 - 03:27 PM (#540341) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: GUEST,nigel.g.parsons@btinternet.com Steve: "there's no such thing as a double positive implying a negative" Me: "Yeah, sure!" Also, "Aint misbehavin'" quoted several times as meaning being good. Wrong! If you're dead you ain't misbehavin, but you ain't being good either. A double negative does not necessarily connote a positive Interesting subject matter though. Not folk, but modern, How about Pink Floyds "The Wall": ? "We don't need no education" 'no' is being used for emphasis, but from the mangling of the English language, education is certainly lacking. Apologies for any strange spellings, but English is my first language! |
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02 Sep 01 - 11:29 PM (#540561) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Suffet Then there is... I'm just a poor boy whose intentions are good, Oh, baby, please don't let me be misunderstood! From Eric Burdon, "Don't Let Me Be Misunderstood" That works much better than... I'm just a poor boy whose intentions are good, Oh, baby, please let me be understood! --- Steve |
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02 Sep 01 - 11:56 PM (#540563) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Amos "Ain't Misbehaving" definitely DOES mean one is being "good," whatever that word means! To misbehave is to violate expected moral conduct. Not MIS-behaving is semantically equivalent to behaving (the implication of behaving rightly or correctly being understood, since in fact even a bad actor is behaving.) Nor is it a correct example of litotes, since the intention is to explicitly state one is not doing something (misbehaving) not exagerrate by understatement, nor to make an assertion more modest. Misbehaviour is defined as "bad" conduct and the phrase is an assurance that one isn't engaging in it. The argument about being dead is moot since the expression's original contect is in the first person singular, and thus an assertion not likely to be offered by someone dead. The writer could have said something to the effect that his current conduct was not unvirtuous. This is the "modest assertion" type of littes. If the writer had said "My behaviour is not wildly licentious, never fear!" or if the writer had said, "I guess I am not an angel but I am saving my love for you....", the other kind of litotes (emphasis by contrast) would have been created. But saying one isn't misbehaving when one is not misbehaving doesn't qualify IMHO A |
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03 Sep 01 - 03:48 AM (#540609) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Steve Parkes Nigel: sorry to be pedantic, but: "Curiously, there's no such thing as a double affirmative signifying a negative. Yeah, yeah!". Go back and read my post again. (BTW, don't this as a criticism: I don't read everything either!) I'd class "We don't need no education" as ironic use of ungrammatical colloquial speech; it's meant to reinforce the message of the song. Where did PF go to school? I think they had a better education than you might infer. Steve |
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03 Sep 01 - 09:17 PM (#541147) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Wolfgang, you are a scholar of no mean accomplishment. Off the thread, species is species singular and species plural. Yes, KimC, specie is what we cannot do without, bread, folding green, a bit of the ready, etc, necessary to buy Kim Chee in a Korean restaurant. Also not near the mark, is there a name for this kind of statement: "Thar I was, out in the big middle (of Brazos County or whatever). |
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03 Sep 01 - 09:37 PM (#541163) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) In the current thread, Re: "In the Pines" revisited, Stewie posted the lines to a song. "I didn't bring nothing to this old world, and I won't carry nothing away." Litotes, I don't think, but a nice use of double negatives two lines in a row. The site posted by guest wouldn't be a loss if it was removed from the internet. There are no few imitations of dictionaries out there. They are even worse than spelchek and that is no mean feat. |
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04 Sep 01 - 05:09 AM (#541366) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Skipjack K8 It came to me this morning, on the M180 in North Lincolnshire. I'd been mulling this one over for a few days, and here it is:- "One lunchtime Ted saw Ernie's horse and cart outside her door, It drove him mad to find it was still there at half past four So he jumped down from his cart, hot blood through his veins did course, And he went across to Ernie's cart, and didn't half kick his horse." Ernie, the fastest milkman in the west - Benny Hill. Epic |
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04 Sep 01 - 08:34 AM (#541442) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Mary in Kentucky How about Dylan's "Don't Think Twice": I ain't sayin' you treated me unkind
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04 Sep 01 - 10:18 AM (#541522) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Kim C I've never eaten kim chee before but being no small consumer of spicy foods, I'd be willing to try it... |
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04 Sep 01 - 10:34 AM (#541532) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Fibula Mattock To assemble not an insignificant collection of such litotes is no mean feat. This thread is not displeasing to me. |
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04 Sep 01 - 11:32 AM (#541576) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Steve Parkes Not bad, FM! |
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04 Sep 01 - 01:42 PM (#541665) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Mary in Kentucky It's Not Unusual - by Tom Jones |
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04 Sep 01 - 01:43 PM (#541668) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Mary in Kentucky (sung by Tom) |
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04 Sep 01 - 03:23 PM (#541763) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Mary in Kentucky Sorry about that repeat on the Dylan lyrics, Suffet. I guess I just subconciously had it in my head. I'm still a little confused by the definitions. If we follow the strict definition by Suffet, the second word (the one which is negated) has to be a negation of a positive word itself. (an "un" or "mis" word) If we use Murray's definition, it is a bit more subjective...denying the opposite or contrary of the word which otherwise would be used. For example, in Dixie, "Old times there are not forgotten" (think of forgotten as the opposite of remembered...forgotten being a negative and remembered being a positive) Or in The Yellow Rose of Texas, "We never more shall part" (think of the word "part" as the opposite of "stay together"..."part" being a negative and "stay together being a positive) |
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05 Sep 01 - 06:55 AM (#542299) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Fibula Mattock No nae never No nae never no more Will I play the wild rover No never no more (aargh, my brain hurts...) |
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05 Sep 01 - 02:13 PM (#542695) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: kytrad (Jean Ritchie) Well, I couldn't care less... |
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05 Sep 01 - 03:06 PM (#542733) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Mary in Kentucky Along the lines of the broader definition:
Which ne'er forgot will be, FM, I thought of No, Nae, Never...but I think that's just repition for emphasis...not sure though. Jean, there must be lots of Appalachian expressions and songs...just can't think of any more.
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05 Sep 01 - 03:33 PM (#542772) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) "No, nae, never" ain't no litotes, just a triple negative reinforcement. Not negatives of a contrary. The song is not a bad rouser, however. |
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05 Sep 01 - 03:45 PM (#542785) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Fibula Mattock no more will I play the wild rover...? |
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07 Sep 01 - 03:29 AM (#544231) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Steve Parkes No, no, no!!! Don't forget, there must be an element of deliberate understatement: "not a little" instead of "a lot", for example. I'm beginning to see why my old English master Eric Foers used to get so worked up! Steve |
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07 Sep 01 - 07:07 AM (#544311) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Suffet I hope he never came unglued. |
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07 Sep 01 - 07:34 AM (#544331) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Fibula Mattock Bah. I'm always being so damn negative! |
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07 Sep 01 - 07:58 AM (#544343) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Wilfried Schaum Hello, never forget: in a lot of dialects the double negation means not the strong affirmative, but a stronger negation, e.g. "no, sir, I never drank no beer today" as a Bavarian EM told me when questioned about drinking during his duty in the emergency platoon. The greek word is definitely "litotes" in Greek, not litote. I checked both entries in dictionary.com and found 3 entries for litotes, only 1 for litote. I'm still marvelling why Princeton gives both forms - but who wants to be a Princeton man? The Latin school where I took my final exam in Greek language and literature was founded in 1543 and they still swear that the correct form is litotes, as I read in every Greek or Latin Grammar in my school days. Wilfried |
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07 Sep 01 - 08:50 AM (#544381) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Wilfried Schaum Hello, thinking it over, I have to add some more remarks: Not every double negation is a litotes: "Not unusual" must not necessaryly mean "very usual". There is an usual way and there are unusual ways to do a thing (the third way is the Army way, ha ha). "Not unusual" can also denote a way which deviates from the usual, but is still exercised by a minority. Best example I can find: In former times the men of Rügen (German island) used to wear kilts. Even now it's not unusual to find old men clinging to this custom. But the original question was about litotes in song. I think that you'll find no litotes in folk songs. Litotes is a highly artistic figure of educated speech used by orators (e.g. Demosthenes, Cicero, few modern politicians), but not by the common man in everyday speech. So I am convinced that my former statement about the double negation is valid: double negation in folksongs will be a strengthening of the simple negation. Wilfried |
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07 Sep 01 - 03:23 PM (#544662) Subject: RE: Litotes in song From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) This thread is slowly coming to a point of no return, but I couldn't help adding a Yorkshire version of high praise: "It could be wuss." |