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12 Sep 01 - 12:01 AM (#547762) Subject: ADDPOP: Masters of War (Dylan) From: Helen Come you masters of war You that build all the guns You that build the death planes You that build the big bombs You that hide behind walls You that hide behind desks I just want you to know I can see through your masks You that never done nothin' But build to destroy You play with my world Like it's your little toy You put a gun in my hand And you hide from my eyes And you turn and run farther When the fast bullets fly Like Judas of old You lie and deceive A world war can be won You want me to believe But I see through your eyes And I see through your brain Like I see through the water That runs down my drain You fasten the triggers For the others to fire Then you set back and watch When the death count gets higher You hide in your mansion As young people's blood Flows out of their bodies And is buried in the mud You've thrown the worst fear That can ever be hurled Fear to bring children Into the world For threatening my baby Unborn and unnamed You ain't worth the blood That runs in your veins How much do I know To talk out of turn You might say that I'm young You might say I'm unlearned But there's one thing I know Though I'm younger than you Even Jesus would never Forgive what you do Let me ask you one question Is your money that good Will it buy you forgiveness Do you think that it could I think you will find When your death takes its toll All the money you made Will never buy back your soul And I hope that you die And your death'll come soon I will follow your casket In the pale afternoon And I'll watch while you're lowered Down to your deathbed And I'll stand o'er your grave 'Til I'm sure that you're dead Bob Dylan, Masters of War ****************************** My comments: 1. I don't agree with the last verse. 2. War is not a one sided event. An analysis of what lead to this attack should not only focus on today's attackers. What lead to it? Why the U.S.? Why now? Which "boys" were waving their swords around and yelling "Come and fight me, I dare you"? I hope and pray that today's attack is not taken as the signal for the "little boys" with their little toys to get into the biggest fight in the earth's history. Because I, as an innocent bystander, don't want to die for them, and I don't want to see devastation and destruction and loss of life because of a few people's secret desires to have the "war to end all wars". Helen in Australia
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12 Sep 01 - 02:13 PM (#548204) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Paul from Hull Well said Helen |
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12 Sep 01 - 02:13 PM (#548205) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Wyrd Sister WHERE HAVE ALL THE FLOWERS GONE (Pete Seeger) (GAGF) CAm/CD7G7/CAm/FCG/CAm/CD7G7/FGC/FGC Where have all the flowers gone? Long time passing. Where have all the flowers gone? Long time ago. Where have all the flowers gone? The girls have picked them ev'ry one. Oh, When will you ever learn? Oh, When will you ever learn? young girls They've taken husbands ev'ry one. young men They're all in uniform. soldiers They've gone to graveyards ev'ry one. graveyards They're covered with flowers ev'ry one. flowers Young girls have picked them ev'ry one. When will we ever learn?^^^
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12 Sep 01 - 02:18 PM (#548210) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Lonesome EJ In the wake of Pearl Harbor, would it have been better to not retaliate? Would more have been accomplished by simply praying for peace? |
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12 Sep 01 - 02:24 PM (#548215) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Paul from Hull EJ.....this is HARDLY the same kind of War, is it? |
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12 Sep 01 - 02:28 PM (#548217) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Lonesome EJ Probably not, Paul. It is , nonetheless, war, whether we want it or not. |
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12 Sep 01 - 02:30 PM (#548219) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: McGrath of Harlow Show me a country where the bombs had to fall Show me the ruins of the buildings once so tall And I'll show you a young land with so many reasons why And there, but for fortune, go you or I |
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12 Sep 01 - 02:35 PM (#548227) Subject: Lyr Add: WHAT HAVE THEY DONE TO THE RAIN (Reynolds From: Mrrzy WHAT HAVE THEY DONE TO THE RAIN Malvina Reynolds
Just a little rain falling all around
Just a little boy, standing in the rain
Just a little breeze out of the sky
Just a little boy, standing in the rain |
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12 Sep 01 - 02:37 PM (#548229) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Paul from Hull I guess it is EJ, but against a far less definable enemy... as yet anyway....I just hope that OUR reaction doesnt cause MORE people to define us all in the West as their Enemy.
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12 Sep 01 - 02:51 PM (#548243) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: GUEST,Lieutenant Dan Have you ever considered that if we were less concerned about what people think of us, stuff like this might not happen as frequently. IF, for example, Bin Laden is responsible, then the fault is our for not eliminating him years ago, something we had the capacity to do, but we did not want to irritate the Afghans. Ditto for other terrorist groups. |
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12 Sep 01 - 02:56 PM (#548248) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Paul from Hull Didnt the US use Cruise Missile strikes against Fundamentalist Terrorist Training Camps in Afghanistan (& fail to take out Bin Laden)? |
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12 Sep 01 - 02:59 PM (#548249) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: SINSULL Last night I had the strangest dream I'd never dreamed before I dreamed the world had all agreed To put an end to war... |
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12 Sep 01 - 02:59 PM (#548250) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: beadie "In the year of the new century and nine months, From the sky will come a great King of Terror... The sky will burn at forty-five degrees. Fire approaches the great new city..." "In the city of york there will be a great collapse, Two twin brothers torn apart by chaos while the fortress falls the great leader will succumb third big war will begin when the big city is burning" - NOSTRADAMUS NB. New York is located at 41 degrees N. Latitude Makes you wonder what "great leader" the old psychic priest was talking about. |
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12 Sep 01 - 03:11 PM (#548268) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Lonesome EJ Interesting, beadie. Do you have chapter references for those quotes? |
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12 Sep 01 - 04:42 PM (#548350) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: beadie I wish I did. This came via e-mail from a friend (sans reference). I can't find a reference on the net, but the placement of the ". . ." spacers in the quote lead me to believe that this may be a compilation of more than one quatrain (perhaps even from more than one century). Thus, I, too, am somewhat suspect of the accuracy, . . . . but, then again, the prophet has quite a track record to precede him. |
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12 Sep 01 - 06:49 PM (#548444) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Roughyed I've always been troubled by the last verse of Masters of War as well. I think the song is about the people who make the money out of the arms trade and make the decisions to send others to their deaths while remaining nice and safe themselves, and fair enough. But I do feel that while it is a satisfying ending to the song emotionally and artistically it is ethically suspect. But then hey, how old was the lad when he wrote it. |
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12 Sep 01 - 06:58 PM (#548455) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Haruo The first song I personally thought of yesterday was God on our side. Liland |
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12 Sep 01 - 07:37 PM (#548481) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: GUEST,guest The best, most prophetic line Phil Ochs wrote is what America is now learning; "I would be an exile now, but everwhere's the same" |
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12 Sep 01 - 07:40 PM (#548483) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: weststar Yes,Liland, thats the one. Where is the havoc and srife that the athiests and agnostics are wreaking around the world? I am increasingly unimpressed with the inspiration derived from any of the Gods. |
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12 Sep 01 - 09:54 PM (#548544) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Helen Swan, I always thought it was about the decision makers - politicians, military leaders, etc - who decide to have a war, send other people off to do their dirty work, and escape to safe havens and bunkers to "live to fight another day". Helen |
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12 Sep 01 - 10:27 PM (#548568) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: khandu The Nostradamus quote is bogus. This is circulating around the net. It is not from Nostradamus. |
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13 Sep 01 - 03:00 AM (#548722) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: GUEST,Boab "The old psycic priest" [ if he indeed was the author] was talking crap as always----- P.S.I'll try to get something done about the stutter. |
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13 Sep 01 - 08:10 AM (#548786) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: GeorgeH It is simply nonsensical to call the current situation - tragic and utterly horrific though it is - a war. Redefining the English language to suit one's political agenda is, and always has been, an act of propaganda.
Helen . . In one sense I agree with your comments about the last verse of Masters of War . . For a long while I felt uncomfortable about them, despite their power. However if you see the "war figure" in the song as alegorical rather than human it's entirely appropriate to: By the way, I'd strongly recommend Martin Simpson's performance of this song . . certainly the best I've heard. G. |
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13 Sep 01 - 09:19 AM (#548825) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: GUEST Something's wrong, shut the light Heavy thoughts tonight And they aren't of Snow White Dreams of War, dreams of lies Dreams of dragon's fire And of things that will bite |
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13 Sep 01 - 01:58 PM (#549000) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Big Tim Let Me Die in My Footsteps (verses 2 and 6 only) There's been rumours of war and wars that have been, the meaning of life has been lost in the wind, and some people thinkin that the end is close by, 'stead of learnin to live they are learnin to die, let me die in my footsteps, before I go down under the ground. Let me drink from the waters where the mountain streams flood, let the smell of wild flowers flow free through my blood, let me sleep in your meadows with the green grass and leaves, let me walk down the highway with my brother in peace, let me die in my footsteps, before I go down under the ground. Bob Dylan, 1963.
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13 Sep 01 - 08:24 PM (#549462) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: weststar About Masters of War, Nat Hentoff's linernotes from Dylan's Free Wheelin' album quote Dylan as saying "I dont sing songs which hope people will die, but I couldnt help it in this one. The song is a sort of striking out, a reaction to the last straw, a feeling of what CAN you do?" |
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13 Sep 01 - 08:52 PM (#549486) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Haruo weststar, you ask, "Where is the havoc and srife that the atheists and agnostics are wreaking around the world? I am increasingly unimpressed with the inspiration derived from any of the Gods." At the moment it looks like the havoc is largely being wrought by theists, or so they say. So is a lot of the patching up and healing. Pol Pot and Joseph Stalin were, so they said, atheists. Looks to me like most of the good and most of the evil in our present society is done by human beings. I'm unconvinced that belief structures of a cosmological or theological nature have much to do with the rightness or wrongness of people's actions. I am a Christian, a Baptist, but I don't think the good (or the evil) I have done in my life has much to do with that belief structure. Certainly the mere invocation of a purported Divine Name is no grounds for being impressed. But I don't see evidence that *disbelief* results in better behavior. As a Christian, I believe that all that is good, all that is loving, is of God, and that ultimately all will be well. But I'm not convinced that this makes my behavior either better or worse than those for whom the word God is a semantic null set, or than those who believe that God is going to send all the nonbelievers to a place of eternal torment. I'm interested in your thinking on this, and any hard data you may have. Liland |
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13 Sep 01 - 10:03 PM (#549544) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: GUEST,Mary Z. Yeah, the lyrics of the song are moving and poetic, but hopelessly unrealistic. It's the guys here with the big guns who will defend this country when other guys with big guns come to blow your butt and mine off the planet. I'm pretty tired of seeing all military being portrayed as violence-loving dumbells who don't know when to quit. Praying for peace is real good idea, but do you know who you're praying to? The God of hope and peace is also the God who despises evil and those who conspire to do evil to the innocent. Praying for God's direction in our situation is even better. And even tho God will be the judge, we are left to defend ourselves against those whose entire sensibility is comprised of hatred toward us.... Folk songs are great, but I have yet to see them stop a terrorist attack. |
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14 Sep 01 - 06:41 PM (#550379) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: weststar Songs at their best give our thought processes solace. Perhaps even inspire us to better understanding of the challenges at hand. Once in a while a song will change a heart or a mind. Liland,I have not saved much hard data to present. Ive been observing the conflict is Israel and Palastine since the 7 day war.The inability of the arabs and or Muslims to accept the Jews and the other way around. Somehow, what they hear god telling them gives license to such viciousness. In recent year in the USA, there is a trend toward intolerance inspired by what some Christians are hearing god telling them. Perhaps, they are all hearing nothing and filling the void with their own concoctions. But, it just has left me wondering about it as I drive down the road every day and once again find myself cut off by somebody speeding with a fish or a "In case of Rapture, driver will be missing" sticker on the back of their car. It seems that so many religious people become captivated and even obsessed with details of their percieved morality that they lose their focus on what I have so far seen to be the basic premise of all religions. That is the rule that you should only do to others as you would do to yourself. Treat others like you would want to be treated. Perhaps the rub comes when we realize that we arent getting what we are giving . God indeed has a plan for this world, but the fact remains that people are doing to each other what they do not God. |
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14 Sep 01 - 09:24 PM (#550482) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Helen Well said, weststar. Folk songs, and other sorts of songs, can help to change attitudes and reinforce values. They can also help to change opinions. The majority of the discussions I have seen about this situation have revolved around all of the above. I know that songs are not the only tool for creating positive change, but they have an important power. Rock Against Racism is one example. I'm hoping and praying that good sense, and good values will prevail over the initial & more basic human/reactive impulses to retaliate regardless of the consequences. Helen |
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15 Sep 01 - 01:19 AM (#550613) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: GUEST I think this thread has crept from the original idea that the masters of war are the ones who sell the armaments. There are nasty people out there who are promoting war. Indeed, it is obvious that if there is no conflict, they would be out of business. And our senior leaders (political and military) "those that call the shots won't be among the dead and maimed" (John McCutcheon) who are making the decisions that get a lot of other people on both sides of any conflict killed seem to be in the pockets of these masters. Folk song of the sixties nourished a movement and made a profound change in society, perhaps it can again. In any crime, the investigators first focus is on "Who is the person(S) who will benefit from this crime?" Remember the adage "Old soldiers never die, just young ones". |
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15 Sep 01 - 03:33 PM (#550917) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Haruo Thanks, Weststar. I hear what you're saying. And yet I have a sense that the present crisis has produced more of a sense, and more active expressions, of solidarity among Christians, Jews and Muslims in the United States than has ever existed before. (And not just those faith communities, but Sikhs, Bahá'ís, Hindus and Native American religionists. I haven't seen a visible Wiccan/Druidic presence, nor [oddly to my mind] a Buddhist one in these acts of solidarity yet, but that may be the fault of the reporting media rather than of the religionists.) Liland who will now let this thread drift back to its original topic |
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15 Sep 01 - 03:59 PM (#550942) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: GUEST Liland, There is a strong aspect of religious nationalism inherent in this--and the military/industrial/media establishment is doing all it can to fuel this Christian vs Muslim "religious" aspect of nationalist fervor. Jingoist rants aside, the masters of war will be the only ones who "benefit" (if you can call being knee deep in the blood of the innocent a benefit, no matter how much money and power you have) from a prolonged armed conflict. It is no coincidence that during this most recent prolonged period of casualty-free war-making by the U.S. is also the same time frame in which we have seen the flooded by and awash in cheap guns and weapons. |
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15 Sep 01 - 04:07 PM (#550950) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: GUEST Sorry--above should have read: "...we have seen the world flooded by and awash in cheap guns and weapons" |
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23 Feb 03 - 07:46 PM (#896969) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Felipa presently pertinent |
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23 Feb 03 - 10:56 PM (#897061) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Mudlark Just saw Martin Simpson in concert...and his rendition of Masters of War would chill the socks off a statue. No question where his sypathies lie! Another anti-war song...Crow on the Cradle..a cpl of verses... Hush-a-by baby, the black and the white Somebody's baby was born for a fight Hush-a-by baby, the white and the black Somebody's baby is not comin' back Your father and mother they'll scrimp and they'll save To build you a coffin and dig you a grave Hush-a-by little one, why do you weep? We have a toy that will put you to sleep Sang the crow on the cradle... |
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24 Feb 03 - 11:06 AM (#897329) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Felipa "Just saw Martin Simpson in concert...and his rendition of Masters of War would chill the socks off a statue. No question where his sypathies lie!" the song could be directed at Sadaam Hussein & co as easily as at Bush & co. |
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24 Feb 03 - 11:12 AM (#897332) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: GUEST "the song could be directed at Sadaam Hussein & co as easily as at Bush & co." Which is what makes this such a great song. It demonstrates that the "debate" between masters of war is always 2 sides of the same coin. |
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24 Feb 03 - 11:53 AM (#897369) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Dave Wynn "the song could be directed at Sadaam Hussein & co as easily as at Bush & co." Only in the "free" world could it be directed at Saddam. If you tried directing it at him in Iraq I suspect you would be removed. whether by WOMD or a single shot. Spot |
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25 Feb 03 - 12:04 AM (#897970) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Art Thieme Dylan borrowed the tune for this song from Jean Richie and her family's song "NOTTAMUN TOWN". Art |
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25 Feb 03 - 01:38 AM (#898018) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Cluin I like the last verse. Sing it out loud and clear. |
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31 Mar 03 - 04:05 PM (#922844) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Rambling Boy It's still one of the most biting and true songs ever written so stop carping about it and go out and sing it to everyone whether they listen or no (I do) . Well done Helen I totally agree with you . I first learned it from Julie Felix who puts so much feeling into it. Well I remember the 60's protest songs. What happened to all that idealism ? Mortgages and materialism that's what ! If you have something to lose, give it away and then it won't worry you !! Anyway off soapbox and back to singing. |
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31 Mar 03 - 05:08 PM (#922906) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Jim McLean The real Masters of War are the people themselves. I wrote a parody on Dylan's song a long time ago called The Masters of Booze, directed at a few friends of mine who were bordereing on alcoholism. The people who built The Big Stills and forced the alcohol down their throats were just an excuse for their own inability to stand up for themselves. Don't joint up! Don't fight! Jim McLean |
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01 Apr 03 - 09:20 AM (#923435) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Peter T. Song I recently sung in public! One song that connects with 20 year olds because it is so pissed off -- it is just full of youthful anger, and stripping the hypocrisy off the powers that be. You can see why the folkies got so depressed when he left town, he really had the protest touch. yours, Peter T. |
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01 Apr 03 - 10:52 AM (#923582) Subject: RE: Masters of war who build the big guns From: Pied Piper "Seagull I don't want your wings, I don't want your freedom in a lie" |