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13 Sep 01 - 04:05 PM (#549134) Subject: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: mousethief I am sick at heart when I hear of attacks people are making against Arabic or Islamic people in the US. Mosques are being fired at, businesses owned by Muslims are being vandalized, and so forth. This is a horrible injustice, and misplacement of our righteous indignation about the attacks of 9/11. I hope all Mudcatters will join with me in condemning these acts and calling for peace and calm and brotherliness (for want of a better word). Forgive me for starting a new thread but this is very important to me. Alex (neither Arabic nor Islamic, but standing in solidarity with those wrongly attacked, whatever their origins or religion) |
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13 Sep 01 - 04:07 PM (#549135) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Troll Right with you Alex. troll |
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13 Sep 01 - 04:13 PM (#549138) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: mousethief Thanks, Troll. I know it doesn't do any good just posting it here -- if I knew of any Arab- or Muslim-owned businesses I'd go stand there and carry a sign or something. One feels so helpless, one wants to do SOMEthing. Alex |
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13 Sep 01 - 04:22 PM (#549152) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: jeffp I agree with you wholeheartedly, Alex. This is one of the outcomes I feared when the "events" occurred. jeffp |
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13 Sep 01 - 04:26 PM (#549154) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: GUEST,Nick There have been a few regretable incedents, which true Americans deplore. One is too many. What is truly remarkable is how few there have been, it makes me damb proud of our country! What would happen to an American in some countries that call us the Great Satan if the situation were reversed? I'll tell you what, they would be killed, or taken hostage to be used as as a human shield by cowards. I read a nice article about a Palistinan American who runs a flag store near DC. He is a true American and proud of the country we share. |
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13 Sep 01 - 04:26 PM (#549155) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Eric the Viking Unfortunately there may also be a backlash in the UK as well, not that I've heard of anything in particular. One of the kids in my school (it is a special school) who has a very right wing father came in and said, to some of our Asian children " It's you fucking Paki's that did this in America". Sad world. |
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13 Sep 01 - 04:28 PM (#549160) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: katlaughing Thanks, Alex. I agree. So far, my Iranian friend has felt safe and has not experienced anything untoward. I hope it continues so. |
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13 Sep 01 - 04:28 PM (#549161) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Troll There are police cars parked across the street from the Islamic Student Union which is also their Mosque. As far as I know there have been no problems but that could change in a heart-beat. I pray. troll |
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13 Sep 01 - 04:33 PM (#549165) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Kernow John With you Alex. It is worth posting as it reminds us in the UK of the possibilities of it occuring here. Brotherliness will do just fine! KJ |
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13 Sep 01 - 04:41 PM (#549168) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Maryrrf I totally agree. We have many Arab-American and muslim clients, and all have expressed dismay at what happened. However, there were reports of some Arab residents celebrating in Patterson and Bayonne, NJ. I would think that this would be a most inadvisable thing to do right now! |
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13 Sep 01 - 04:42 PM (#549169) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: McGrath of Harlow I would imagine that this would be one of the useful side-effects that the people planning the operation might have had in mind.
And Nick, be rightly proud if it does turn out that this does only happen in a very few cases in America, but don't assume that people in countries where America isn't popular are any less capable than you of being decent human beings.
I remember when the Falklands War was on there was all koind of speculation in the English press about the terrible things that could happen to British people living in Argentina, especially when the Belgrano was torpedoed as it sailed away from the war zone. But it just didn't happen.
Great Satan just means Great Enemy - that's what Satan means, in Hebrew or in Arabic. |
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13 Sep 01 - 04:43 PM (#549171) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: annamill Alex, I'm all there with you on this one. Believe me. Love, Annamill |
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13 Sep 01 - 04:54 PM (#549189) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Kim C Absolutely! People need to remember also that there are a lot of refugees in this country (legally) who wanted to get AWAY from the sort of things that have happened to us this week. Nashville has a large Muslim community and I hope their safety is not in jeopardy. I do not believe that the people who perpetrated this week's horrendous acts represent all Muslims, or all Palestinians, any more than Jim and Tammy Faye represented all Christians. Be nice to your neighbors, y'all. |
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13 Sep 01 - 04:57 PM (#549194) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Dave (the ancient mariner) One should not blame the many for the actions of a few. The people responsible for this atrocity will be destroyed along with any infrastructure that supports them. It is worth reminding us that during the terrible but righteous retribution that will be unleashed on these miscreants some innocents will die too! War is the final option, but so far the American leadership has shown compassion and remarkable restraint from retaliation. I'm sure that when they have found out those responsible, they will act in a judicious and surgical manner as much as is humanly possible. Yours, Aye. Dave (who has Islamic neighbours sharing Americas grief) |
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13 Sep 01 - 05:19 PM (#549214) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Lonesome EJ So far I have heard of two incidents, one involving a prison fight between Muslims and non-Muslims. The other, which is more chilling, involves a patriotic rally that turned ugly and may have led to attacks on a Chicago mosque. It strikes me that we could win the war against the perpetrators of this deed, but in the process we could lose much more. This phenomenon is nothing new : I am reminded of the Serbs and Muslims who lived side by side peacefully for years, then suddenly turned upon each other in violence. For us to do this would mark the saboteurs' greatest achievement. |
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13 Sep 01 - 05:20 PM (#549215) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: InOBU Genie and I have been stoping in at the shops of our Arabic neighbors ,talking shaking hands, sharing THIER grief at this, much fear and great saddness on their part. Go visiting friends. Cheers Larry |
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13 Sep 01 - 05:21 PM (#549218) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: wysiwyg ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! ~S~ |
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13 Sep 01 - 05:24 PM (#549221) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: catspaw49 Yeah...With you Alex. There have been 3 attacks so far in Columbus that have been reported. Tragic. The fear factor and the "Klan Mentality" is as frightening as the terrorism itself. Spaw |
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13 Sep 01 - 05:33 PM (#549227) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Sorcha Right there with you.......... |
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13 Sep 01 - 05:38 PM (#549230) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Bill D amen...remember the injustices done to Japanese Americans in WWII |
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13 Sep 01 - 05:42 PM (#549240) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Clinton Hammond If unchecked, the resulting race riots will make LA look like a piss fight in a sand box... Nobody wants that... |
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13 Sep 01 - 06:16 PM (#549289) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: GUEST Seems like everyone's "preaching to the choir" here. How do you tell ignorant people not to be ignorant? |
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13 Sep 01 - 06:25 PM (#549299) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: GUEST,Hille Yeah, why have those people forgotten (or don't they know?) the appalling things that the Taliban (who are a sect of Shi'ite Moslems - I think - please someone correct me very quickly if I've got that wrong) are doing to other Moslems in Afghanistan. Didn't any one see the Channel 4 docu secretly filmed by Imries (?) Shah's daughter undercover in Afghanistan. Little girls from opposition groups (i.e. different ethnic groups) raped by Taliban militia, summary filmed executions, women and children starving to death because women are not allowed to work - and these are the widows of Mudjadheen soldiers! Also, the "Arab" world didn't want to know when Moslems were being slaughtered in Bosnia/Serbia - because they (the Moslems) there are "white" and "European looking" So - it ain't the Moslems - it is terrorists who are terrorising their "own" people too
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13 Sep 01 - 06:27 PM (#549302) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: kendall It's useless to play the violin in front of an ox. |
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13 Sep 01 - 06:56 PM (#549347) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Lepus Rex Me too and stuff. I hear that Sikhs are getting alot of abuse too, probably thanks to their distinctive turbans and beards. The other day, I saw footage of police stopping a train in Rhode Island (I think), and taking a turbaned man who appeared to be a Sikh into custody. Apparently, he had nothing to do with the terrorist attacks, but had been arrested because he had a concealed weapon. I wonder if anyone was searched besides the guy in the turban... Anyone heard anything else about that? Also, I've mentioned this before, I think, but I'll do it again: Not long after the Gulf War, my French/Dutch/Scandinavian father was briefly detained and frisked during a tour of the White House because of his 'middle eastern appearance.' That's always pissed me off, and was the event that opened my eyes to what Arab-Americans and many other minorities have to go through every day in this country. Hille: I wouldn't believe everything you hear about the Taleban. Most of the more popular information that reaches the West about Afghanistan is pure bullshit spread by oppositions groups with political agendas. And this is coming from someone who desperately wants to see the Taleban overthrown, so... :) (They're Sunni, btw.) ---Lepus Rex p.s. Hille: A couple of threads about the Taleban from March: Thought for the day Mar 3-loss of Buddha, and BS: NPR to discuss Afghanistan & Buddha NOW. If you're interested. :) |
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13 Sep 01 - 07:06 PM (#549362) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: sophocleese So instead of preaching to the converted write to your local media outlets and ask why they show clips of Palestinian kids getting free candy and celebrating over and over again but they don't show shots of prominent Palestinians and others praying and offering support for the Americans. Why choose that one picture of Palestinians celebrating? Others in other parts of the world probably celebrated as well, others shrugged their shoulders and went on with what they were doing and many were appalled and are doing what they can to support. Remember when they celebrate they celebrate the attack on a giant not the death of thousands, we view the same actions through different lenses. |
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13 Sep 01 - 07:10 PM (#549374) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: DonMeixner My father once told me about being an American with a German name during world war two. He was a grown man by then but still having a name like Hans Adolph created no end of abuse. It also black balled him in some of the war work he did. He was unable to serve due to blindness in one eye and total deafness in one ear. He became Jack Meixner real quick after the war began. The one place he was never treated poorly was working on the Cherokee Reservation in Oklahoma. Any attack by an American Citizen on another American citizen because of shade of skin or faith is intolerable. But sadly it is to be expected I suppose. We live in so much hatred and fear. I thot it was gone. I hoped it was gone but I guess it will always be among us. Don |
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13 Sep 01 - 07:16 PM (#549381) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: GUEST,Rich(bodhranai gan cookie) I'm at the library. hence the lack of a cookie. If anyone wants to ascertain that this is me, send me a PM and I'll reply when I get home. In WWII. we took every American of Japanese descent that we could find, and put them in internment camps. Then we went to Germany and attacked them for putting Poles and Jews into camps. Granted, we eventually let our prisoners free, but this was no less terrifying to the people affected. In some cases, the Japanese-American males were asked to fight in our armies against Germany while their wives and children had to stay locked up. They were kept in deplrable conditions that we would deem unsuitable for a convicted rapist today, and for the crime of looking different than us. German-Americans hid their ethnic origins in some cases or at least didn't advertise them, for fear that they could be next. It's been over 60 years. Haven't we learned anything yet? We've just been brutally attacked in a devastating manner for the crime of believing differently than our attackers. If we do the same, we are not only making ourselves no better than than them, but we're completing a cycle of hatred that can either snowball or stop with us. Rich |
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13 Sep 01 - 07:36 PM (#549402) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: SINSULL Sad but true: The last thing I said to Sid (Sidhartha) this morning was "Please don't go anywhere alone". There are angry people who need a scapegoat. I spoke with one this afternoon who was snickering at the American flags on Atlantic Avenue in Brooklyn, an Arab neighborhood. Her implication was that the flags wouldn't protect them. She was shocked that my neighbors and I didn't agree with her. And was totally confused when I suggested she listen to what other people feel. Even terrorist extremists. Not agree with them but listen. At least try to understand what they believe and why they need to harm us. I am tired. M. |
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13 Sep 01 - 08:00 PM (#549436) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Nemesis Dear Lepus, Thanks for those links. Just checking - The cult of martyrdom is characteristic of the Shi'ite branch of Islam (as in Lebanese Shi'ite Militia trained by Iran who blew up 241 American servicemen and 58 French paratroopers in simultaneous attacks in Beirut), whilst Islam condemns sucide as the way to hell and damnation but amongst Islamic scholars the argument has been won by radicals who see it as a legitimate form of Jihad - replacing the term 2Suicide bomber" with Martyrdom operation" As regards the Taliban (Sunni? Ok?) - I do believe the evidence of my own eyes (filmed summary public executions - women being shot in the back of the head, innocent villagers of different ethnic background to Taliban with their faces cut off, emaciated women begging on the streets, the daily risk of death by women teaching girls (which is forbidden) on and on ad nauseum - as presented by an intrepid expatriate Afghani (with no axe to grind either way) risking her life to find out the truth of what's going on in her homeland. Sorry, I would love to believe it's bullshit and edited film - but so much of it so obviously wasn't. (And I am huge cynic generally of these documentaries) Regards, Hille |
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13 Sep 01 - 08:12 PM (#549447) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: DougR You're right, Alex. We shouldn't make the mistake we made with Japanese Americans in WW2. I'm glad you posted this message. DougR |
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13 Sep 01 - 08:36 PM (#549473) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: McGrath of Harlow Also, the "Arab" world didn't want to know when Moslems were being slaughtered in Bosnia/Serbia - because they (the Moslems) there are "white" and "European looking"
Sorry, Hille, that's just not true. There were lots of people from Arab countries who volunteered to fight to protect their co-religionists in the Bosnian war. The way that was seen by Muslims in general was that fellow Europeans didn't care too much about it because the victims were Muslim.
Maybe you didn't mean it that way, but it seems so easy for people to slip into ethnic stereotyping like that. Even when they are with the conscious part of their mind protesting against race hate and sectarianism. |
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13 Sep 01 - 08:58 PM (#549493) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Ma-K During WW11 I lived a few miles away from the Japanese relocation camp near Cody Wyo. They were US citizens taken from their homes put on trains and taken to the Big Horn Vally to live in long buildings with tar paper on the out side and bare rafters on the inside. Their sons were not forced to fight but went and fought for their country (the US.) Many died. They were not locked up like a prison but there were fences and guards. I have offen thought of the young men visiting their familys when home on leave....I hope and pray that we never do that to anyone again......Mary |
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13 Sep 01 - 09:14 PM (#549500) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Midchuck I suspect that one of the goals of the fanatics who did this in the first place (assuming, as being the most likely based on the evidence so far, that they were middle eastern Muslims of some sort or other) was to cause widespread hostility toward, and persecution of, Muslims in general, which would in turn unite Muslims around the world in the anti-US cause. And it's quite likely to work. There's a lot of stuff in other places on the net about "ragheads" already. Peter. |
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13 Sep 01 - 09:27 PM (#549511) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: McGrath of Harlow Why do people who wouldn't dream of saying "Nigger" feel no compunction about saying "Raghead"? I don't mean Midchuck just now, who was just citing it, but other people even on the Mudcat who have used it directly.
I'd class using that word as being an attack on Arab-Americans (among others). Worse in a way than "Nigger", because there are black people who have used that word, but I doubt very much if anyone has ever used the word "Raghead" except as a contemptuous insult. |
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13 Sep 01 - 10:34 PM (#549571) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Lepus Rex Well, Hille, yes, there are executions, "ethnic cleansing," hungry people, and other horrible things in Taleban-ruled Afghanistan. (Though I doubt that you saw footage of little girls being raped by Taleban soldiers) But these things aren't new to Afghanistan. In fact, before the Taleban took over, things were much worse, a fact that even feminist opposition groups like the Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (who suck) freely admit. Women were being raped in the streets, for instance. People were being robbed and murdered by criminal gangs. Compared to some of the warlords who the Taleban displaced, they're practically saints. Still, like I said, I'd personally like to see their genocidal, Pashtun-centric regime toppled, preferably by a moderate coalition supported by all the peoples of Afghanistan. Yeah, right. :) ---Lepus Rex |
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13 Sep 01 - 10:54 PM (#549589) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Bert Well said Alex, thanks for starting this thread and thank you EVERYONE who has resonded to it. When I worked in Bahrain I shared an office with two Shiite Moslems, one very religious and very kind and gentle, the other, very western and very critical of Shiite religious practices. They were further apart from each other idealogically than they were from me. But they were both nice guys and would do anything for each other and for anyone else. People are people everywhere and most of them are nice. It's just the few crazies who cause problems. |
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13 Sep 01 - 11:13 PM (#549607) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Troll Bert, that mirrors my experience with the Shiites I had for customers when I worked for the Post Ofice. troll |
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13 Sep 01 - 11:16 PM (#549611) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Peg I heard that the Sikh gentleman on the Amtrak train near Providence was carrying one of the small ritual knives sacred to his religious path. Received this today; puts an interesting new spin on things:
PFAW STATEMENT ON DIVISIVE RELIGIOUS RIGHT COMMENTS People For The American Way NewsWire http://www.usnewswire.com/topnews/Current_Releases/0913-128.html The following is a statement by People For the American Way president RalphG. Neas on divisive comments by religious right leaders: I am deeply saddened that in the wake of this week's devastating terroristattacks, Religious Right political leaders Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell have chosen the path of division rather than unity. At a time when political leaders of both parties are urging bipartisanship and national unity, it is truly unfortunate that Americans who watched today's edition of Pat Robertson's 700 Club television program received a far different message from Robertson and Falwell. This is a time for a shared national commitment to bringing those responsible for the terrorist attacks to justice. It is also a time to renew our commitment to protecting the constitutional liberties and democratic values that sustain our free society. Today's comments by Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell can only impede efforts to bring the nation together in pursuit of these goals. --- Below is a partial transcript of the 700 Club television program from Thursday, September 13, 2001. Also attached is a statement from People For the American Way President Ralph G. Neas. Partial transcript of comments from the Thursday, September 13, 2001 edition of the "700 Club": JERRY FALWELL: And I agree totally with you that the Lord has protected us so wonderfully these 225 years. And since 1812, this is the first time that we've been attacked on our soil and by far the worst results. And I fear, as Donald Rumsfeld, the Secretary of Defense, said yesterday, that this is only the beginning. And with biological warfare available to these monsters -- the Husseins, the Bin Ladens, the Arafats - what we saw on Tuesday, as terrible as it is, could be miniscule if, in fact -- if, in fact -- God continues to lift the curtain and allow the enemies of America to give us probably what we deserve. PAT ROBERTSON: Jerry, that's my feeling. I think we've just seen the antechamber to terror. We haven't even begun to see what they can do to the major population. JERRY FALWELL: The ACLU's got to take a lot of blame for this. PAT ROBERTSON: Well, yes. JERRY FALWELL: And, I know that I'll hear from them for this. But, throwing God out successfully with the help of the federal court system, throwing God out of the public square, out of the schools. The abortionists have got to bear some burden for this because God will not be mocked. And when we destroy 40 million little innocent babies, we make God mad. I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen." PAT ROBERTSON: Well, I totally concur, and the problem is we have adopted that agenda at the highest levels of our government. And so we're responsible as a free society for what the top people do. And, the top people, of course, is the court system. JERRY FALWELL: Pat, did you notice yesterday the ACLU, and all the Christ-haters, People For the American Way, NOW, etc. were totally disregarded by the Democrats and the Republicans in both houses of Congress as they went out on the steps and called out on to God in prayer and sang "God Bless America" and said "let the ACLU be hanged"? In other words, when the nation is on its knees, the only normal and natural and spiritual thing to do is what we ought to be doing all the time -- calling upon God. PAT ROBERTSON: Amen. --- Statement by Ralph G. Neas President, People For the American Way September 13, 2001 Like all Americans, we continue to struggle with the aftermath of the devastating terrorist attacks in New York City and at the Pentagon. We grieve for the victims of these heinous acts. We salute the courage and heroism of so many individuals, from passengers and crew on the hijacked airliners to the police, firefighters, and other rescue workers, many of whom have lost their lives in the line of duty. We praise those political leaders who have acted in ways that have drawn us together in the midst of overwhelming loss. This is a time for bipartisanship. It is a time for making a shared national commitment to bring to justice those responsible and for acting appropriately to prevent future such attacks. But there are other dangers we must guard against, as well as terrorists. While we seek to defend ourselves against future threats, we must also guard against allowing our own anger and fear to cause us to act against our own interests as a free people. We have already seen pundits and political leaders suggesting that the fight against terrorism requires us to sacrifice the constitutional liberties that are at the core of what it means to be an American. That would be a victory for our nation's enemies. We have already seen acts of harassment and violence directed against Arab- Americans and Muslim Americans. We call on all Americans to reject that kind of scapegoating and to stand up against it in their own communities. Targeting people based on their ethnicity or religion was not the American Way when Japanese-Americans were taken from their homes and shipped to internment camps during World War II. It is not the American Way today, when Muslim Americans are taunted or attacked on the streets of the country that is their home. People For the American Way's 500,000 members and activists are guardians of the Constitution and the democratic values that sustain our free society. We will vigorously support the government's efforts to identify those responsible for these acts of terror and to bring them to justice. And we will just as vigorously oppose efforts to exploit this tragedy in ways that diminish the constitutional and civil rights for which generations of Americans -- in the armed forces and social justice movements -- have fought and died. Now, more than ever, we will act to promote and protect the ideals of the American Way. Copyright 2001, U.S. Newswire |
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13 Sep 01 - 11:33 PM (#549628) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: sophocleese I'm sorry Peg but when I saw this, after having a beer to help me calm down, "I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way -- all of them who have tried to secularize America -- I point the finger in their face and say "you helped this happen." for some reason I thought of a roulette wheel. "And now folks we have an EFFECT we're looking for a cause, can anybody in the audience give us a CAUSE? No? Well let's just roll the old wheel of CAUSES. Place your bets ladies and gentlemen as we spin the dial and try to pinpoint THE CAUSE. Is it the Jews? No... Is it the Niggers? No... Is it the people who drink alcohol on Sundays? No... (really?) And there it is Sirs and Madams (Oh I didn't mean it like that, so sorry, I meant Ladies) We have ABORTIONISTS! There you go folks we got Abortionists as one of the causes. What's another cause? C'mon somebody must have an idea. All right we'll spin the wheel again Ladies and gentlemen. What are we going to see now. The wheel turns and turns and YES! we have a new group to blame. We have Feminists! There you you are Sirs and Madams (please madam! Its not your place to argue with me!)" |
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13 Sep 01 - 11:56 PM (#549650) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Lepus Rex And those aren't even extreme comments on the 700 Club... And about the Sikh man on the train, Peg, thanks. Here's something about it Providence Journal site: Providence police detain Amtrak passenger • The train is halted outside Providence Station, and searched for four suspicious men reported by Boston police, the train's origin. "PROVIDENCE -- As the largest terrorism investigation in U.S. history began yesterday, federal and state authorities focused attention on New England, searching for clues at a Maine airport, a Boston hotel and on an Amtrak train at Providence Station. A tip and suspicion in Boston led to a frenzied search of a Washington-bound train in Providence yesterday afternoon and the arrest of a 28-year-old Virginia man on misdemeanor weapons charges. The man, Sher J.B. Singh of Leesburg, Va., had a beard and a green turban, and was held for about six hours at the Providence police station before being released about 8 p.m. Singh was charged with possession of a knife with a blade more than three inches long, a misdemeanor. Police Chief Richard T. Sullivan said the man had no connection to the terrorist attacks. "This is a case of mistaken identity," said Singh's wife, Hermani Kaur, in an interview last night, before her husband was released on personal recognizance. Sher Singh lives in Leesburg, but he and his wife have stayed in the Milford, Mass., area for two years while she is enrolled in dental school at Boston University. He's an engineer and an active member in the Milford, Mass., Gurdwara, a place of worship for Sikhs. He and several members of the Milford Gurdwara are working on a start-up high-tech company "E-Call Data," said his friend and Gurdwara secretary, Inderpreet Singh. "Everyone in the community loves him," Inderpreet Singh said. "It's really shocking that he was picked up because of what he looks like." If he was questioned because of his appearance, he was charged because of a symbol of his faith. The knife he carried in a sheath strapped across his shoulders is called a kirpan, a ceremonial dagger that's considered a symbol of the Sikh faith. It's a curved, ceremonial dagger that's difficult to open, said Inderpreet Singh. The kirpan is a symbol, not a weapon, and it's meant to be worn at all times, said Inderpreet Singh. Since the terrorist acts, Sikhs have become targets of suspicion. "It's a very tough time for our nation, too, on top of the tragedy and finding the culprits," said Inderpreet Singh. "But just because they look different doesn't mean you can take away their rights." Hemani Kaur wants an apology from someone, anyone, for the damage they've caused to her husband's reputation. Shortly before 2 p.m., Boston police called Amtrak police in Providence with a description of four men who boarded a train bound for Washington, with a stop in Providence, said Chief Sullivan. Amtrak police contacted Providence police, who prepared to find the men and question them. They knew where to look, right down to the exact car on train No. 173. Police cruisers and undercover cars swerved down Gaspee Street, blocking off the train station. Bomb squads from state police and Providence police pulled up. Bomb-sniffing dogs panted and strained at their leashes. Uniformed and plainclothes officers from state and local police and the state fire marshal's office swarmed through the station, some ordering the growing crowd back from the building. The train was stopped on the tracks as the police found the four men who fit the description from Boston. Bomb-sniffing dogs were scouting the luggage and packages around the four men on one of the train cars, Sullivan said. Drawn by live TV accounts of police detention of the train, a crowd of more than a hundred gathered around the train station and on the nearby State House lawn: men and women in business attire, younger people wearing T-shirts. As the incident continued, word spread that at least one suspect had been arrested and would be taken away by police. As he was led from the building, some in the crowd lunged toward him. Police kept them away -- but they could not prevent the whoops and jeers. "Kill him!" one man yelled. "You killed my brother!" screamed another. No one seemed to know anything about the man -- nor did they seem to care. Police safely escorted him to a cruiser, which sped off to the Providence police station. Singh and three other men whose descriptions seemed to match the tip didn't appear to be connected to the terrorism, Sullivan said. The other three men were let go and continued on to their destinations, he said. Singh was held because he was carrying a knife.
Singh was questioned at the police station by local detectives, and agents from the Federal Bureau of Investigation, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, and the Immigration and Naturalization Service, said Maj. Martin F. Hames. He is a native Indian who has been a U.S. citizen for the past two years -- and his description had been considered suspicious by the police. " |
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14 Sep 01 - 12:10 AM (#549660) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: GUEST,Genie Ah, yes, nobody [Torquemada] has ever committed acts of bigotry [the Crusades] or violence [Salem, MA] while actively engaged in religion or fighting for The American [manifest destiny] Way [internment of Japanese in WWII]. So, if we pray in schools, we'll all be fine! Please, let's not turn the USA into the kind of battleground the middle east and some other places are by attacking people and denying them their rights because of ethnicity, religion, etc. Then terrorism has really won.! G |
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14 Sep 01 - 12:15 AM (#549666) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Peg very chilling account of the man being detained on that plane. Thanks. (I think) The mob mentality shall contonue to be just this ugly I am afraid... :( |
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14 Sep 01 - 02:46 AM (#549738) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Nemesis Dear McGrath, Perhaps I didn't put it very well, when I said "Arab" world I meant nations groupings together comprised of mainly Islamic populations, e.g. Saudi Arabia, Libya, UAE, etc., Governments which were noticeably absent with the sort of funding that might have seriously changed the nature of the conflict in the Balkans. Of course, there were volunteers - I meant those Governments that stayed out of it. I understood that this was/is a reasonably universal truism amongst strategic analysts of the Balkans - blimey, I wouldn't come up with that one by meself :) Oh, Lepus, jest stop being pedantic - I saw all the things I mentioned, I didn't see the little girls raped - I watched 3 hugely traumatised little girls largely who had seen their mother shot in front of them when the Taliban wanted their house and who where subsequently in the house with these Taliban for three days before they moved on (this was part of a Taliban operation) These little girls were so completely traumatised it was evident that unspeakable things occurred besides well as their mum being shot. I think one might have needed to have seen this documentary and it is probably unfair to be commenting on it when it has not been universally seen. Anyway, I do know that things were not the best in Afghanistan before - but at least women could work and support themselves, at least women could teach girls with out fear of execution.. So, I do know that the Taliban have cleaned up somethings but at a terrible price.. Hope that clears a couple of points up. Hille |
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14 Sep 01 - 03:22 AM (#549750) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Lepus Rex Well, Hille, I don't know how little girls being traumatised is proof that they were raped. But since I haven't seen Saira Shah's documentary, I can't say much about that. But the fact that Ms.Shah's documentary was filmed with the aid of the RAWA suggests that she DOES have a political agenda and/or and axe to grind. From what I've read about the film, the execution footage was supplied by RAWA, and I'm guessing that the interviews were arranged by RAWA, as well. Ms.Shah is apparently allowing herself to be used as a tool by a very questionable (IMHO) political organization. Just because it's on tv doesn't make it real or true. Maybe it is, but it sounds to me like typical anti-Islamic propaganda. :) ---Lepus Rex |
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14 Sep 01 - 03:42 AM (#549762) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: gus C I've seen two instances of it first hand. Nothing terribly serious just snide mildly hostile words to two diffrent arabian gas station attendants at two diffrent gas stations. It is ugly and wrong. Anyone who thinks like that doesn't realize how much that kind of thought process has already contributed to the nightmare. |
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14 Sep 01 - 06:14 AM (#549798) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Dave the Gnome I saw the effects on the local Irish community after the Manchester bombing and ugly is a very good description. Fortunately, if that experience was anything to go by, you should not worry too much. The midless cretins who threw bricks through the windows of the Irish centre in Cheetham Hill and the thugs who beat up people coming out of Irish music sessions soon forgot. In England they went back to football tribalism and mugging old ladies. I guess in the US they will go back to whatever nefarious activities they got up to before they crawled out from under their stones. They are too stupid to hold an idea for much longer that a day or two. Neither form of terrorist will win. Cheers Dave the Gnome |
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14 Sep 01 - 07:04 AM (#549830) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: McGrath of Harlow The Taliban, and the chaos out of which they emerged, were the outcome of the combined cackhandedness of the Russians and the USA. Here is an extract from an article in today's Guardian: "The Russians... had the support of many urban people, particularly in Kabul. This is why their ally, Najibullah, survived three years after the Russians left... When the Russians withdrew, they hoped the US would see the benefit of modernisation and encourage the least extreme of the mojahedin to share power with the-then ruler, Najibullah. But Washington was divided between "bleeders", who wanted to exploit Afghanistan to humiliate Moscow, and "dealers", who saw value in keeping the fundamentalists at bay. The bleeders won, paving the way for the Taliban's eventual triumph. So Bin Laden's safe haven in Afghanistan was provided as the result of US policy - not in spite of it."
And the essential lesson which never seems to be learned is that the old dictum "My enemy's enemy is my friend" can never be trusted. If the people running things don't appreciate that, they are just going to sow the seeds for things that could be even worse in the future.
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14 Sep 01 - 09:24 AM (#549907) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Son of the Mill It is very hard, when under pressure, to think logicaly.When a popular target is found we all go for it. We all think of Arabs we see on TV are Killers.(US? I MEAN ME) Perhaps not.Take care were we point the bone! Cheers Mal. |
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14 Sep 01 - 10:00 AM (#549929) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Mrrzy Were we not perceived as a Christian nation, this would not have happened. Dubya needs to be reined in - all this god stuff is just making what happened more RIGHT in the eyes of the perpetrators. Not all moslems are arab. Not all arabs are moslem. Not all Americans are Christian. Not all Americans believe in gods. This should be a day of mourning, absolutely, but prayer, again, should be voluntary. Am I the only person outraged by the government daring to order people into houses of worship? What happened to the separation of Church and State? Most arab/moslem nations are theocracies, is that where this country is headed? I am so very, very afraid. I don't think I've ever been this frightened for us all. |
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14 Sep 01 - 10:48 AM (#549973) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Kim C Lepus, it is a fact that before, Afghani women had careers as doctors and other highly-educated professionals. No more, thanks to the Taliban. A woman who needs medical treatment is now SOL because the male doctor can't touch her, and the women doctors are not allowed to practice. It is a fact that they now must appear in public completely covered, from head to toe, whereas before, it was a personal choice. It's even illegal for a kid to fly a KITE, fercryinoutloud. A friggin KITE. I don't doubt that news reports can be biased, but some of the facts clearly speak for themselves. On another note.... This is going to lead to a whole new branch of racial profiling by law enforcement. |
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14 Sep 01 - 12:35 PM (#550056) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Lepus Rex Kim, you won't get an argument about that from me. I agree, women are treated unfairly in most of Taleban-controlled Afghanistan. I just worry when I see people come up with obviously false or half-true things like "the Taleban rapes little girls," or "women are starving to death because they can't work." This really isn't the time (like there ever is a time) to be de-humanising the "enemy." Especially when we have a short-sighted sociopath like Bush in control. :) ---Lepus Rex |
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14 Sep 01 - 01:26 PM (#550070) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Kim C Arthur Kent, in his PBS documentary which aired last night, said he had never seen so much begging in Afghanistan, especially by women. Since they are not allowed to work outside the home anymore, it is not hard to imagine that many of them do face financial hardships. Now, a different twist. Some of you know I enjoy belly dancing, and I hang out with a group of ladies in the Society for Creative Anachronism who develop Middle Eastern personas for this hobby. I had a message from one of them today saying that SCAdians with Middle Eastern personas are now being harrassed in Florida, to the point where that particular group's website has been shut down. Great. These are mostly white people who happen to enjoy Middle Eastern culture and history. The leader of my dance class suggested that ladies not wear their dance garb on the way to an event this weekend. I mean, really. Harrassing ersatz Middle Easterners. Give me a break. |
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14 Sep 01 - 02:10 PM (#550123) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: McGrath of Harlow Here is a link wich Mmario posted which is really worth reading in this context.
More depressingly, here are two reports from today's Guardian: http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,551742,00.html>British Muslims living in fear of backlash, and
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14 Sep 01 - 02:17 PM (#550133) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: McGrath of Harlow Sorry, my fingers are all thumbs today.
Here are the links to those two stories:Violent attacks on Arab Americans and British Muslims living in fear of backlash |
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14 Sep 01 - 02:24 PM (#550148) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Kim C So sad. :-( |
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14 Sep 01 - 02:27 PM (#550151) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: GUEST I'm not sure what Bush has done yet to qualify as a "short-sighted sociopath." What would you have him do that's any different in this matter? |
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14 Sep 01 - 03:06 PM (#550179) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) I see those religious bigots Falwell and Robertson are blaming the abortionists and the ACLU for the WTC horror, saying God is mad at the alternate lifestyles and abortion. So far, in my city of about 1 million, there have been no attacks on Muslims. The police have put a small protective unit at the Muslim school. Of course, there are the brainless yahoos who shout hanky-head at any woman with a scarf over her head. We continue to eat at the local Palestinian restaurants that offer good food at affordable prices. |
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14 Sep 01 - 03:58 PM (#550214) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Lonesome EJ Rich said In WWII. we took every American of Japanese descent that we could find, and put them in internment camps. Then we went to Germany and attacked them for putting Poles and Jews into camps. Just for the record, we didn't go to Germany and attack them for putting Poles and Jews in concentration camps. We should have, but we didn't. We went there because they were taking over Europe, and because the Japanese attacked us. The fact that we discovered the camp atrocities gave us reason in retrospect only. The Japanese internment is also a grave injustice in retrospect. An invasion was felt to be a very real threat on the West Coast of the US. What would Japan have done had they a huge population of occidentals living on Okinawa? I suspect they might have done much worse. Our government was wrong. It was war. In any war there is suspension of rights and liberties. I suspect we will see more in the coming days. |
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14 Sep 01 - 04:03 PM (#550222) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Kim C Hanky-head? I hadn't heard that one before. Some people just suck. Wonder what would happen if we all started wearing turbans and head scarves? I'm game. "I'm Spartacus!" |
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14 Sep 01 - 04:31 PM (#550239) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: katlaughing Lepus Rex said, "Revolutionary Association of the Women of Afghanistan (who suck)." I) "suck" is a very ugly and suggestive word, in this case, demeaning to all women, imo, and 2)why is it you think this? I have been in close contact with several members for a few years now and find your hostility towards them puzzling. As for "Fallbad" and "RobertsPun" they are both bastards and richly deserve the hell they choose to inhabit when they die. We must be vigilant against their machinations, even more so, in some ways, than the enemy without. kat |
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14 Sep 01 - 04:32 PM (#550240) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Kim, "Hanky-head" is heard in western Canada- I don't know how widespread this word is. It is applied to Moslem women who wear the long dress and head-covering as well as traditional Sikhs (some have abandoned the turban). Long dresses are popular here again so if the head scarf also comes back, there will be litle difference. |
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14 Sep 01 - 04:51 PM (#550256) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: mousethief I've never heard "hanky-head." In these parts, there are relatively few Muslim women, but a lot of expats from Ukraine (there is an especially large community of charismatic Christian Ukranians in the Seattle-Tacoma region; I don't know why). So the scarf-wearing women are far more likely to be Christians than Muslims. To demonstrate that "put your money where your mouth is" attitude, I went on my lunch break and bought a potted chrysanthemum, and placed it on the steps of the local mosque, then had a very pleasant chat with the owner of the halal grocery store just down the block from same. A splendid fellow, as the Brits say. He left Afghanistan 21 years ago, and holds the Taliban and bin Laden in the same contempt as any other American does. He says the leaders in places like Afghanistan use religion to whip up the people into hatred; it's a tool to them like any other political tool. In the end we shook hands and parted with kind words. I'm glad I went! As I keep saying, people are just so very doggone much like folks it's amazing. alex |
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14 Sep 01 - 05:19 PM (#550286) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Kim C Good on you, Alex. :-) |
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14 Sep 01 - 07:14 PM (#550411) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Lepus Rex Well, Kat, I think we've been over this before, actually... First, I'll clarify my "who suck" statement. What I actually meant to say was: "who suck monkey ass hard," if that makes it any better. :) And why do I think that the RAWA sucks monkey ass hard? Well, they publish half-truths and distortions about life in Afghanistan on their web site, for one. Much of their information lacks ANY evidence to back it up. A picture with a caption is not evidence. Like I've said before, it's not hard to get pictures of atrocities in Afghanistan from today, or from 20 years ago. Nor is it hard to obtain pictures of women begging. Of course the beggars are going to have a sad story to tell. Beggars always do. That's how they make their money. Whether the stories are true or not, who knows. Not the RAWA, apparently. And just other, little things... A story about the Taleban requiring school boys to wear turbans (accompanied by shocking photos of young boys... in TURBANS!). I mean, how uncommon are scool uniforms in other countries? Western countries? How is a turban different than a suit and tie? Stupid stories like that, where practices common in other countries are labelled as "extreme," simply because they happen in an Islamic country, just piss me off. Those are just some of the reasons that I think the RAWA sucks monkey ass hard. I actually agree with much of what the the RAWA claim they're trying to accomplish. But when their methods are so questionable and their information so obviously fabricated to further their political agenda, I can't support them. And I don't see why so many Westerners blindly accept their claims as absolute truth and offer their support to them, either. But this is WAY off topic for this thread, so I'll shut up. :) ---Lepus Rex |
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14 Sep 01 - 07:37 PM (#550435) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: GUEST,.gargoyle Dear "Thieving Rodent" ... EVERYTHING appears to be "very important to"(YOU)
Other threads and members have chastised you - so now again but in a Musical Spirit:
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14 Sep 01 - 08:15 PM (#550456) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Mousethief, I am in Alberta, so know the Ukranians well. They make up over half the people in many areas in central Alberta. The major emigration was from 1900-1930, but with a small peak after the last war. Most of the older people who habitually wore head scarves are now gone, but scarves are still common- it can be windy, dry and dusty here. We have a fair number of Muslim people in our two major cities, with their own mosque (very attractive building, I think there are others but I speak of the one in my part of town) and their own schools. They are in many lines of work and pay taxes like good citizens should. Of course the "hanky-head" appelation comes from what we used to call the pool hall crowd years ago (now the pool salons are upscale, so I don't really know where these yahoos hang out). They still jeer at anyone different from the average. A number of Sikhs and Muslims drive taxis here and are occasionally harassed. |
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14 Sep 01 - 09:56 PM (#550496) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Just saw on the BBC News carried on cable here, Arafat and a number of his people giving blood to sent to New York. I have yet to see this on the American news channels. |
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14 Sep 01 - 10:06 PM (#550500) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Paul from Hull Dicho, I'm surprised (& not a little worried) by that... Arafat gave blood on WEDNESDAY or possibly Thursday, & I had assumed it was common knowledge in the States now. |
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16 Sep 01 - 01:30 AM (#551289) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: GUEST,Arjay I think it's unfortunate that the media (TV, especially) gave as much coverage as they did on the 11th and 12th to the arab/muslim people who were celebrating in the streets (the way folks over here did when we bombed Hiroshima). There were, of course, many other arab/muslim people, as well as Americans who are muslim and/or of arab ancestry who were grieving along with Europe, Canada, the US, etc. The racist attacks would have occurred without that, as they did in WWII, but I think the media fanned the flames of racial-religious-ethnic hostility. Not only is this type of bigotry immoral but it threatens to turn our country into the type of terror zone we say we want to avoid. As you folks are saying, we really need to take a firm and very visible stand against the harrassment of and attacks on Arab Americans (and others who are mistakenly thought to be). Arjay |
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16 Sep 01 - 04:00 AM (#551392) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: mike putt Alex you are right but as Guest said you are preaching to the converted. How can this message be got across to the few hotheads that are going to make a pigs ear of the whole thing. |
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16 Sep 01 - 08:01 AM (#551480) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Callie The only way to do it is to be vocal in our own dealings with people in a day to day situation. There's no point tolerating ignorance on such matters for the sake of keeping the peace (ha! sic!). There's fresh anti-Arab graffiti on my local bus-shelter. i have not ever seen this in my area before. If it isn't washed off by tomorrow night when i drive home from work I'm going to spray over it myself. We have experienced similar ignorant acts in Australia. The last time Indonesia sent troops into East Timor, a local Indonesian Australian performer who had big public gigs lined up was told that his gigs had been cancelled because the organisers did not want to be seen to be taking sides with Indonesia. What a stupid thing to do - this particular performer has been very active in human rights and Timor freedom issues. Callie |
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16 Sep 01 - 09:12 AM (#551497) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: McGrath of Harlow Attacks against Muslims have to be recognised as what they are - actions which in effect serve the ends of the terrorists.
Anybody taking part in them should be treated as allies of the people who carried out the atrocity on Tuesday. |
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16 Sep 01 - 10:43 AM (#551538) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: MiriamKilmer I figured I'd be preaching to the choir if I posted this on Mudcat. On Thursday I posted this message to most of the people I know who are in my email address book: --- http://www.infobeat.com/articles/news_head_3_91401.html Arabs under Siege in US Members of local Muslim communities held their breath yesterday as New York's boiling temper exploded following the devastating terrorist attacks that left thousands dead. From Brooklyn to Long Island, there were confrontations, acts of vandalism and catcalling directed at Muslims. Police stood guard outside local mosques and there was an increased presence in heavily Muslim neighborhoods. Along Brooklyn's Atlantic Avenue - home to a substantial Arab community - a nasty edge tinged the air. One woman expressed disgust that so many stores in the neighborhood were open. "Go back to your own f---ing country," yelled Stephanie Jankowitz at the Arab owner of a barber shop. "You're open today? How can you be open today?" she said to the proprietor, who only smiled back. Afterward, Jankowitz - who lives in Brooklyn - said she was furious with all Arab-Americans because of the attack. "I'm so angry, those people should go back to their own country," she said. "They're living off the wealth of this country. All those shops should be closed. "Let just let one of them smile at me today. I'll spit in their face." That sentiment was shared by others. A Post reporter witnessed two men driving a car with a sign taped to the rear window that said: "Kill all Palestinians." Many Muslim residents refused to comment on the tragedy and the bustling neighborhood was significantly quieter that usual yesterday. ---- Hate and violence breeds hate and violence. Friendship, understanding, and tolerance breed peace. I'm going to my local Afghani restaurant for lunch. --- I got a reply right away from a friend who wanted to go with me. She and her sister picked me up. We had a delicious meal, friendly service, and felt we were really doing something to combat prejudice. My brother and his family followed suit that evening. He wrote that "the poor souls had American flags and 'God Bless America' sickers all over the place."
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16 Sep 01 - 08:07 PM (#551907) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: CraigS I want to clarify a few things - 1) Sunni Muslims are the conformists, who worship God in the ways the prophet laid down. 2) Shia Muslims are non-conformists, who do not follow the rule of the prophet as strictly. In both branches there are fundamentalists, who wish to adhere to old-fashioned values. While there are many paths to enlightenment, there is no true path that embraces violence against fellow humans. The message of Christ was non-violence - turn the other cheek. Historically, the message of Islam was spread violently across Europe, but was eventually repelled. The Spanish expelled their Muslim rulers in 1491, and the Ottoman Empire effectively fell in 1845, releasing the Balkan states from subjugation, but leaving the converts to Islam to the mercy of their new rulers - and the ethnic cleansing of recent years. The problem is that most Muslims are from primitive cultures, which are hundreds of years behind the western world in terms of their belief systems, but are in co-existence. They can point out the better points of their societies which are lost in the modern world, and say that they have a nicer way of existence. The truth is that neither is right - we must learn from the past, but move to the future- which must not include death and misery. |
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16 Sep 01 - 08:36 PM (#551930) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: McGrath of Harlow "The problem is that most Muslims are from primitive cultures, which are hundreds of years behind the western world in terms of their belief systems" - the propblem with putting it that way is that it suggested that morality is determined by chronology, and that it necessarily advances. Since the 2Oth century western world produced Nazi Germany, I don't think that assumption holds water. "Primitive" doesn't tell you a damn about issues of right and wrong. |
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16 Sep 01 - 09:11 PM (#551951) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: CraigS To McGrath: Nazi Germany was an extreme expression of the desire to hold nationalistic views, as opposed to humanistic views. The extermination of Muslims in Croatia under the puppet Nazi rule led to a lack of Muslims to exterminate when the recent ethnic cleansing of Croatia took place, just as the rather older massacres of Jews in York have led to a low Jewish population in York. Were I not a humanist, I could see a case for massacring all McGraths in Harlow. The analogy is that comparable violent events have occurred in the past, when questions of ideology have been advanced. In the main, such events have been hundreds of years ago. Where this is not the case they have been SO OFFENSIVE TO THE REST OF THE WORLD AS TO PROVOKE WAR. Nazi Germany no longer exists. Your argument died with it. |
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17 Sep 01 - 10:51 AM (#552255) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: GUEST,Martin Luther I am with McGrath, Nazi Germany may be dead, but Nazism isn't. This extreme fundamentalism (and various offshoots of it) are generally linked directly to extreme interpretations of Christianity. If Islam is primitive, then so is Christianity. |
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17 Sep 01 - 11:42 AM (#552281) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: McGrath of Harlow The point I was making was that Nazi Geremany was a product of 20th century Western "Civilisation". It is a dramatic example of the clear truth that technological development does not necessarily lead to an advance in ethics.
Unfortunately it's just not true that "in the main, such events have been hundreds of years ago" - the 20th Century was the bloodiest on record, largely because of our advanced technology. In the same way the slave trade and chattel slavery, especiually in America, developed as it did because technology and economic mechanisms had developed to a level that that made it possible and profitable.
And it wasn't Nazi Germany's offensive behaviour towards its own citizens that led to its defeat in war. It was its mistake in starting wars against people who were in the end more powerful.
As for McGraths in Harlow - well there aren't that many of us, so I don't get the point. |
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17 Sep 01 - 12:01 PM (#552302) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: SINSULL For the latest from CNN: Click Here |
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17 Sep 01 - 12:06 PM (#552308) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: LoopySanchez Hating all Muslims for the acts of a few extremists would be like hating all Christians because a select group commit violence on abortion clinics, or another group bombs Catholic school girls in Belfast. Taken a step further, that kind of hatred would be not unlike hating all southern white males because of Tim McVeigh's terrorist attack in Oklahoma City. I pray that cooler heads will prevail and that this mass hysteria towards Muslims in America will be brought swiftly to an end. From what we know so far, all of our enemies in this attack were Arabs, but this does not mean that all Arabs are our enemies. I hope the good-ol'-boy mentality (which is easy to find in my city, despite it's diverse population and technical industries) manages to keep its voice as low as the IQ's of the people who think that way. Quoth Gump, "That's all I have to say about that..." |
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17 Sep 01 - 12:36 PM (#552329) Subject: Nazism? From: Joe Offer I think it's quite valid to say that Nazism died with Hitler. Other movements may arise and make use of the name, but I don't think that the system of government known as "National Socialism" could exist without the person of Adolf Hitler. All my life, I've studied the history of modern Germany, pondering why something so horrible could exist in such a civilized nation. As far as I can see, Nazism is the result of the unique combination of a number of elements - and the personality of Adolf Hilter is an essential part of that combination. Nazism was not really a political system - it was a cult which centered upon the person of Adolf Hitler. As the last week has shown, our world will produce other movements that will be as terrible as Nazi Germany. There will be similarities, but true Nazism cannot exist without Adolf Hitler. -Joe Offer- |
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17 Sep 01 - 12:41 PM (#552333) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: GeorgeH Last week "As terrible as Nazi Germany" - sorry, Joe, but I think not. Except, of course, at the level of the personal suffering of the victims and those related/connected to them, but that's common to all (almost?) acts of violence against humankind. G. |
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17 Sep 01 - 12:54 PM (#552341) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: catspaw49 FBI Director Mueller just announced that they are actively pursuing those involved in hate crimes against Arab-Americans and will prosecute under Federal Civil Rights Laws. Yaeh, I know it might be rhetoric, but I think the government is sincere in this. Then again, maybe I'm just gullible. Spaw |
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17 Sep 01 - 01:13 PM (#552364) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: DougR I agree with you Joe. These off-shoots of Nazism are troublesome, but without a Hitler, they will never compare to the Nazi era of the thirties and forties. I don't know if your local newspapers carried the story, but I am sad to report that our Valley mourns the senseless murder of a man, Balbir Singh Sodhi, that took place over the weekend in Mesa, a suburb of Phoenix. There seems to be no motive other than the fact that the Killer assumed the man was an Arab. Why? He wore a turban. He wasn't. He was a Sikh, and a highly respected business owner. The idiot that murdered him (shot him twice in the back) has been arrested and charged with first degree murder, and for attempting to murder three others who he thought were Arabs. DougR |
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17 Sep 01 - 01:51 PM (#552400) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: GUEST,Martin Luther I don't think that a movement or ideology needs its founding leader to persist. The cult surrounding a dead person can be just as harmful as the cult of personality surrounding the living. However, rather than argue that point, let me simply modify my original terminology to "Neo-Nazis." Other than that, the logic of my comments still stands. |
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17 Sep 01 - 07:24 PM (#552703) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: katlaughing Neo-Nazism is alive and well and it is naive to think it cannot exist without Hitler. Maybe it cannot exist in as concerted an effort, but it does exist and he is their martyred leader, something which can certainly fuel extreme acts of hatred. |
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18 Sep 01 - 01:48 PM (#553317) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: McGrath of Harlow The point about Nazism is that it came out of our Western culture, in one of the most advanced, civilised and cultured societies, in a country with democratic institutions.
It's not going to come back in that form. But the fact that it could happen, and that it was very popular, is a warning. Many of the attitudes that allowed it to come to power are still current, in all countries. |
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18 Sep 01 - 02:34 PM (#553359) Subject: Nazism / National Socialism From: Joe Offer There's a big difference between Nazism and the neo-Nazis. Under his system, Hitler was able to take over a very civilized country and govern it quite effectively for 13 years - and a major reason for that effectiveness was his personality and intelligence. That being the case, I think you could validly call Nazism a "system of government." Neo-Nazism is certainly a political movement, and a very frightening one - but it has shown no signs that it could actually govern a nation. And yes, I stand firm on my contention that the world can still produce a movement as terrible as Nazi Germany - but not the same as Nazi Germany. As the events of last week have shown, we have not conquered evil. -Joe Offer- |
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18 Sep 01 - 02:50 PM (#553379) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Kim C Shot him in the back! Jee-ZIS! What an ignorant f*****g coward. I need a drink. |
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19 Sep 01 - 02:04 PM (#554124) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Kim C On last night's local news there was a report of a Muslim family having their van set on fire - not too awfully far from where I live. They left Iraq to get away from Saddam Hussein. Now the man's wife is afraid to leave the house. |
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19 Sep 01 - 02:51 PM (#554169) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: GUEST,Nazism Schmazism I think that we are wasting our time arguing about Nazism vs. Neo-Nazism and whether Nazism could engulf a state again. The fundamental point is that both are found in modern, Christian Western states and suggest that in terms of the potential for violence and extreme interpretations of religious ideology, the Moslem faith is not the only religion that should be painted as primitive. |
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19 Sep 01 - 07:53 PM (#554428) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: kendall A few days ago in Bangor Maine, some mouth breathing, knuckle dragging arshole attacked a man who owns a restaurant. The owner is Pakistani, and the moron was arrested. Far from being a focus of rage, the locals have been flocking to his place, and even waithing in lines to get it. What better way to show support? I'd like to ask that shithead if he ever heard of the internment of Japanese Americans in WW2. I also saw something that gave me a chuckle. In the back window of an old pickup truck, a hand painted flag, and the words GOD BLESS AMERACA. Must be one of them fonetics students! *BG* |
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19 Sep 01 - 08:53 PM (#554478) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Donuel I heard the phrase that bin Laden's network is to Islam as the KKK is to Christianity to the 10th power. I predicted Bush would have someone else symbolicly call for an end to domestic attacks against American Muslims. I was wrong, he addressed the issue from the Islamic center 3 days after it had a bomb threat. |
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19 Sep 01 - 09:50 PM (#554511) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Lox I anticipate problems in the UK I think the political-Right here is growing dangerously on the sly. The BNP (British National Party) won almost 10% of the vote in Oldham, and yet, the resulting riots in both Oldham and Bradford between white youths and Moslem youths did not deter the Conservative Party from choosing Ian Duncan Smith as their leader. What's the connection? Edgar Griffen! Ian Duncan Smiths private secretary. His son, Nick, is the head of the BNP, and his wife is a fervent campaigner on their behalf. The mirror phoned the BNP hotline, and Edgar answered the phone. How? - By saying *hello* - *British National Party here*! Duncan Smith claimed not to know! Bollox!!!! Either he knew, or the selection procedure for those wishing to attain high office in the Conservative party doesn't involve asking any questions about your political interests or affiliations. Either way, (I live in Leicester where we are proud to boast the most multicultural population in England), The moslems on my street are a little less happy about venturing outside, and whatever my relationship with them was before, it has changed to one of fear, and believe me I'm not the one who's scared. I hate it. I am sick of it. The best summer of my life has ended with a bang! Whoever did this thing is a PRICK. They have created Paranoia where it did not exist, and they have confirmed prejudice and stupidity where it might have been redeemable. An extremely poor nation trying to recover from 25 years of oppression and war is about to be bombed again. It won't be possible to bomb it into the stone age as that has already been fully and comprehensively done. Whats more, we can't even be sure that Osama Bin Laden had anything to do with it. - Ever since his attempt to bomb the WTC in 1993 his assets have been frozen. - Ever since the same, his family have ceased giving him any money. - No large payments have been traced going in or out of Afghanistan since then. (especially now that the Taliban have stopped their most lucrative source of income - Opium/Heroin/Morphine etc.) - It is likely that his suspected fortune wasn't as big as 300 mill anyway, as the money inherited by his family had to be split between about 50 brothers. ______________________________________________________ Have you ever gone to a football match and asked everyone to keep the noise down? Have you ever gone to see a stadium rock band and asked the crowd to be patient? (The guy on stage can do it - get on stage brothers and sisters) Have you ever thought about getting the worlds population to hang on and wait to see what the evidence says, before ganging up on Sikhs. (I have just laughed out loud. I have an image of the look of incredulity on the mans face.....I also have an image of his fear......FUCK!.....) I've forgotten where I read it, but Kendall spoke of oxen and violins. It's at times like this that you need to have faith that you are a good enough Violin player to enchant any sentient being. A human is a human and I'm not afraid of my humanity, darkside and light alike. Neither am I afraid of Osama, or of Survivalists, or of the BNP, or Ian Duncan Smith. How many of us are there on the mudcat. This many people talking this seriously and sensibly is a force to be reckoned with. Let yourselves be heard. Play your violins like you have never played them. Not in a contrived way, not in a straight technical way, but with heart, sensitivity and feeling. Just look at the obedience in those oxens big brown eyes. Enough for now - I'm off to puke to the masses. lox |
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19 Sep 01 - 09:53 PM (#554515) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: kendall Ex president Clinton in an interview yesterday, said three times that we should rally behind the president. Is there an alternative? What a difference in speaking styles! Bill put sentences together and everything.He even made sense. |
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21 Sep 01 - 04:30 AM (#555572) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Lepus Rex Did anyone out there vote for this here gomer? I just love the South... ---Lepus Rex |
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05 Apr 02 - 06:10 AM (#683545) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Wolfgang from a breaking news website: A man who went out to shoot immigrants in revenge for the September 11th attacks was sentenced to death for killing a petrol station owner. The Dallas jury that convicted stone worker Mark Stroman (32) of murder on Tuesday condemned him to death for killing Vasudev Patel (49), a naturalised US citizen from India, last October. Wolfgang (who loves follow ups on stories) |
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05 Apr 02 - 06:45 AM (#683562) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: Celtic Soul I think you're preaching to the choir here, Alex. With you hook line and sinker. |
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05 Apr 02 - 09:19 AM (#683642) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: GUEST,native Does anyone know the money treatment and medical treatment that former vietman prisoners of war got on their return to U.S.A. |
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05 Apr 02 - 01:03 PM (#683815) Subject: RE: ATTACKS ON ARAB-AMERICANS MUST STOP! From: GUEST Something else that should stop. Iraq approves new payscale for suicide bombers Last Updated Thu Apr 4 21:30:02 2002 NABLUS, WEST BANK - Iraq has upped the reward to the families of suicide bombers to $25,000(US) from $10,000, which may explain the dramatic increase in these attacks in Israel during the past month. Relatives of suicide bombers now get $25,000, up from $10,000 An Associated Press report Thursday said Iraq approved the new pay scale for suicide bombers at a conference in Baghdad on March 12. The new pay scale calls for $10,000 to be given to families of gunmen and others who fights Israelis, while the relatives of suicide bombers will receive $25,000. Since Iraq increased the reward money a month ago there have been 12 suicide-bomb attacks inside Israel, including one that killed 25 Israelis, most of them elderly Jews blown up as they attended a Passover dinner. In the past 18 months of fighting in the Middle East, 55 Palestinians have killed themselves in suicide attacks on Israeli citizens. In a speech at the White House Thursday, U.S. President George Bush called the suicide bombers "murderers." He said governments such as Iraq that reward relatives of suicide bombers "are guilty of soliciting murder of the worst kind." The wire service report described the case of Jamal Nasser, a 23-year-old architecture student who killed herself when she tried to ram a bus carrying Israeli settlers. The student's mother said she received a cheque for $10,000 from Iraq and a $5,000 cheque from Iran. She said she intends to use the reward money to buy an apartment. Written by CBC News Online staff
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