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23 Sep 01 - 12:42 AM (#556833) Subject: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: wysiwyg This is Part Two of a discussion that began HERE.
The titles for this song vary, such as: Part One of this thread includes detail on the above, verses, discography, and information about when it may have originated. A link is provided to another earlier thread, also containing good information. It also includes a discussion about the use of the term "Nigger" in a historical context, in a diverse, multicultural forum. This "Part Two" thread , since it provides links to the earlier discussions, is the one that will be included in the Mudcat index thread, "Spirituals Posted at Mudcat," along with an increasingly-large number of other songs from the US slavery era. ~Susan |
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23 Sep 01 - 12:49 AM (#556837) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: katlaughing Thank you, so much, Susan. An elegant solution and well done. kat |
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23 Sep 01 - 12:50 AM (#556839) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: wysiwyg All we can do is try. Someday the world will be much smarter. I'm sure of it. ~S~ |
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23 Sep 01 - 01:37 AM (#556856) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: GUEST,.gargoyle Susan
You have certainly come back full force...a recent multitude of marvelous new lyric postings and research...what has happened? Unemployment or vacation? Whatever, it is an inspiration... may it ignite an epidemic contagion through your example of dedication.
A most sincere THANX, |
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23 Sep 01 - 01:26 PM (#557097) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: GUEST,Irish Sergeant Susan: It is so good to hear from you again! I have been off line for the past two weeks. My sweetie and I went to Maine for our anniversary and I got a new computer. I haven't seen the other thread but there is also a slavery era song titled "Run Mourner, Run" that I will try to dig the lyrics up for. Things may finally be starting to click in the writing arena and I was cast as an extra in a movie. Very small part if I don't end up on the cutting room floor but that is for later. Sorry to blurt all of that but it has been awhile since I contacted all my friends at the cafe. Kindst reguards, Neil PS- Susan my best to Hardy and Monica and e-mail me so I can fill the address book up properly. |
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23 Sep 01 - 01:58 PM (#557111) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: dick greenhaus Am I the only one who feels that using typographical euphemisms like n***r lies in the purview of Victorian pornography--you know, "...his throbbing p***k approached her quivering v****a...? It was silly then, and I think it's silly now. Nigger is an ugly word, unpleasant in its connotations, but it's a word. And it's a word that won't disappear until black comedians on cable TV stop using it. |
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23 Sep 01 - 02:04 PM (#557116) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: McGrath of Harlow Yes, but the logic here is that the song exists in versions using different words.
The problem that occurs to me is, how does ======= work in an alphabetic index? |
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23 Sep 01 - 02:15 PM (#557121) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Big Mick Dick, that is pretty much what I was saying in the other thread. The word is ugly, but it is real and used in the lexicons of several groups. I tire of folks that think that people of African descent would somehow not be smart enough to read the thread and see its intent. It smacks of the same paternalistic crap we see too often. True liberals and intellectuals would trust that folks, any folks, would not get hung up at the title and move on to the discussion. While I applaud friend Susans attempt to solve what she sees as an argument, it did nothing to answer the question being raised. Mick |
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23 Sep 01 - 03:10 PM (#557143) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: GUEST,mgarvey@pacifier.com Mick..I disagree. I can't think of a word as offensive that would be applied to the Irish...but take a fairly mild one..Run Priest-Ridden Mackeral-Snapper Run. Would you not be offended? Run Papist Run...I think the title itself does not sound like a scholarly discussion...it sounds threatening and I am all for using euphamisms, if necessary like Run O*&*(**__ Run mg |
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23 Sep 01 - 03:34 PM (#557155) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: katlaughing Don't take my word for it: People of colour discuss the word "nigger" and its negative and positive connotations and use. Scroll down, it's a good discussion. From: Queens College: "I'm a twenty year old African American female. During my lifetime, I've heard many stereotypical names used to describe African Americans, but one that disturbs me the most is the name 'nigger.' Nigger is more than a word. It is like a weapon used against African Americans. The word nigger first appeared in the 1700s, and it was derived by the white man to imply a creature so degraded that they must represent a lower level of humanity. This was the white man's way of justifying slavery. But the word nigger can represent characteristics found in all people and races." Latina Lewis |
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23 Sep 01 - 03:38 PM (#557156) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Big Mick Actually Mary, there have been any number of threads with words in titles that I found offensive. I never brought it up because it was a discussion. I just stayed away. In fact, I stayed away from this one for a long time because I disliked it. During the "Songs of the Orange Tradition" discussion there were several. You see, I can't defend my position and ability to use words if I am attacking others. This horrible word is used in a song title, and was likely used by the slaves themselves. I guess I have a problem with a bunch of well intentioned white folks trying to tell someone like Leadbelly that he was wrong. It is a discussion on a song. What is the use of changing a song to make it nicer, when one is discussing the song. To illustrate further, if the discussion had been about what we do when we sing a song that we find offensive, that would be one thing. This thread was a request for lyrics and information about a song. And the response was something akin to "OK, but only if you change the name of the song so it doesn't offend me". I don't know if I am being clear, but that seems to me to be wrong. As I tried to explain to Kat, I understand her premise, I just disagree. Leave it alone. One more thing about being afraid that people you recommended this place to and are afraid they will misunderstand. Have a little faith in them. All they have to do is read the first six posts and they will see a legitimate discussion. Probably would even jump in. Mick |
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23 Sep 01 - 03:47 PM (#557167) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: katlaughing One more time, no one was asking that the song be changed or tellng Leadbelly he was wrong. We were only making note of the title and asking for an addition of explanation to it. How about you leave it alone, too? |
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23 Sep 01 - 03:48 PM (#557168) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Big Mick That was easy, kat. It is called demagoguery. I could pull up the discussion where people of color speak of how it is fine, as long as they are using it. You see, it is all about context. Amateur debaters use this gag all the time. The context of the discussion was simple. A musician asked about the song. S/he got what he wanted, as well as a good discussion of it. Then you come along and interject into the legitimate discussion a new element. I guess that is your right. But did you notice how you ended the discussion of the music? Mick |
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23 Sep 01 - 03:55 PM (#557171) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: katlaughing I was not the first to question the efficacy of the title, Mick. I posted in support of mary and Susan. And, you ascribe way too much power to me, if you think I, alone, can end any discussion on music or anything else, for that matter, around here. |
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23 Sep 01 - 04:04 PM (#557176) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Jeri I have a problem with making the ugly parts of our culture dissapear, and using euphemisms or 'talking around' terms, to me, implies that we're playing hear-no, see-no, speak-no-evil, and also implies that people are unwilling to tackle the subjects head on. Hiding monsters in the closet only makes the monsters stronger. Anybody who wants to know the truth will not rely on simply recognising the word in a thread title and making an immediate judgement. When we think "somebody might be offended," or "I'm personally offended because it might hurt somebody else" we are taking away the right of the person/people we think we're protecting to make their own decisions. We are possibly eliminating honest discussion. There is a word: "nigger." It is used today by people who hate and demean others. It's also used by people to refer to themselves. It may have been used in the past, possibly with less hatred, but possibly just as much, if not more contempt. It was used in a lot of songs by African Americans, and a lot of white people now sing those songs. If they sing those songs without changing them (or post they lyrics, or start a thread), they may just be honoring the historical truth of the song, or they may be trying to convey hate. If the singers/posters don't indicate their intentions, and you don't ask, it's just another door slammed shut. The lyrics are in the DigiTrad the way they were collected because we need to remember the bad things along with the good. I personally think we need to quit being so afraid of language and communicating openly. It's the fear that gives the word its power. |
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23 Sep 01 - 04:11 PM (#557182) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Troll The word "nigger" is an anglicazation of the Spanish word for the color black; negro. I'm afraid that Ms. Lewises explaination owes more to urban myth than actual fact. troll |
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23 Sep 01 - 04:11 PM (#557183) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Big Mick OK, kat. You can have the last word on our disagreement. I know that is important to you. Now, back to the discussion. In the original post, it was suggested that the song was written by blacks for blacks. Is there any other reference that can be provided? I am interested in this as a possible group discussion with other folkies of songs whose titles would be controversial now, but when sung in the context for which they were written were fine. That seems to me to be a legitimate discussion. Mick |
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23 Sep 01 - 06:04 PM (#557246) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: McGrath of Harlow I still can't see where ======= can be dealt with in an alphabetic index. I mean, would it come before or after ********? I'm not being sarcastic here, aside from that kind of practical problem, it seems a sensible way of dealing with a song where a key word varies a lot, .
That being said, I'd have serious objections to anyone trying to take the "croppies" out of a song like "croppies lie down" or the "papishes" or the "papists" out of other songs of the same ilk. Though before I'd accept anyone singing them in my presence without objection, I'd want to know they were singing them as historical documents, and not because they agreed with the sentiments.
Sanitising the past is in a way a betrayal of the people who were oppressed ad insulted in the past. The way I feel uneasy when I see cleaned-up "period" drama in which it is pretended that, for example the American West was free from racism. It reduces the pain, but it also reduces the heroism of those who resisted it, even maybe without knowing why, the real life Huckleberry Finns. |
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23 Sep 01 - 06:11 PM (#557250) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Uncle_DaveO I don't understand how this song (whatever you do with that middle word) can be called a spiritual. Dave Oesterreich |
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23 Sep 01 - 06:26 PM (#557263) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: McGrath of Harlow Well, these lines from one of the versions on the arlier thread look pretty much like a spiritual to me:
I'm goin' away, goin' away,
I have hard trials on my way
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23 Sep 01 - 10:04 PM (#557395) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) The word causing so much contention here was originally Latin (Niger, etc.) but entered into European languages in the 16th C.(see OED, under Neger and Niger, as well as Negro (Spanish), nigger). I agree with Dick Greenhaus and Big Mick on this. McGrath is correct, there is no substitute for the correct name in an index. If you check Allen et al. at the North Carolina- Hampton site, the 1874 fragment given is NOT a spiritual, but an old slave party song. It was also associated with the underground railway. The words given by McGrath belong to a spiritual that is unrelated to the song being discussed here. Several "spirituals" have been posted in the DT that are combinations or arrangements for gospel singers or white (dare I use the word?) choirs. The Black cable channel has been added here in Canada; Black stand-up comedians use the word in their routines, as stated in a post above. Deletion of any word, to me, is censorship; the recent tendency toward sanitizing the language is the worst kind because it subtly erases the past. Dialect is also under attack; at least the Scots preserve much of their language (see the Scottish dictionary that has been posted here). |
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23 Sep 01 - 10:18 PM (#557403) Subject: Run Nigger Run From: Joe Offer The first thread I could find on this song is Run, Jimmie, Run. Take a look at the fascinating background information Abby Sale posted there. -Joe Offer- |
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23 Sep 01 - 11:00 PM (#557413) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: raredance Since I am responsible for posting the set of lyrics that supposedly gives "spriritual" connotations to this song, I will at least offer and explantion of what I think may have happened. I have rexamined the Scarborough book and have a theory. Parts of both RNR and Lingerin' are found in two different places in the Scarborough book, p 12 and p 24-25. I think it is a type-setting error in the book. A title "Most Done Lingerin' Here" and four line tune with words are found at the top of p 25 right in the middle of a discussion of RNR with no explanation at all. On p 12 there is a title "Run, Nigger, Run" and four lines of music and words which is followed by text of the Lingerin' song. The two tunes are quite different and neither set of lyrics scans to the other tune. Both blocks of music are the same height and I believe they were transposed by the typesetter, i.e. the RNR music block should be on p 25 and the Lingern' music block should be on p 12. In that format the two songs are no longer even remotely connected. The key, I think, is Scarborough's lead-in text on p 12 which I will quote to support my thesis. "Sometimes I have chanced upon songs unexpectedly, as in Louisville, Kentucky, several years ago, when I was waiting for a belated train. An old. old colored man, in ragged felt hat and clothes scarcely more than a collection of tattered patches, came along, followed by a flea-infested yellow dog. (I did not see the fleas, but the dog gestured of their presence) In spite of his garb, the old man had a quaint, antique dignity, which seemed to say that clothes were of small moment; I am sure he had a soul above patches. As he walked along, singing to himself, I followed him to hear and take down his song. His voice was cracked and quavery, and with the peculiar catch that aged Negroes have in their singing, but it was pathetically sweet." I would argue that this description does not fit RNR at all but would fit with Lingerin'. I don't think RNR would be described as sweet. I believe there is no credible evidence that these two songs ever existed as a medley and therefore I propose that RNR and "Most Done Lingerin' Here" be completely separated. To me that eliminates any hint of a "spiritual" in RNR, although other list makers and linkers are free to make their own judgements. I hope this makes sense and I apologize for not recognizing the problem sooner. rich r |
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23 Sep 01 - 11:33 PM (#557427) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Big Mick Now we are getting somewhere. Thanks for the link, Joe. That is exactly what I was asking for. I am going to look up a folk/blues singing friend of mine in Detroit who happens to be African American and a folklorist of sorts. It is going to be interesting to hear his take on this, as well as his opinion on our little fracas. Mick |
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23 Sep 01 - 11:58 PM (#557436) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: katlaughing Sure hope you will make it clear that we were ONLY talking about the title of the thread. You all have gone off as though we have said there is no way this song should be posted, discussed, sung, or anything else. No one has questioned the legitimate discussion of this song. |
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24 Sep 01 - 12:10 AM (#557443) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Big Mick Ummm...........last word thing again, eh? Well good, I hope it provides the necessary affirmation for you. But, kat, I don't need your advice on how to present the discussion. In fact, neither does my friend. I think I will just direct him to the thread, without comment, and see what he comes up with. You just stick with presenting your opinion, and I will present mine. But thanks for caring. Mick |
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24 Sep 01 - 08:11 AM (#557588) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: GUEST,Irish Sergeant Again, is this the same song as "Run Mourner, Run" ? I didn't get an answer to that one. Neil |
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24 Sep 01 - 11:44 AM (#557741) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: wysiwyg Nice to see some interest in the music aspects of the subject. Carry on. ~S~ |
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25 Sep 01 - 01:33 AM (#558015) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Stewie Neil, it is an example of floating stanzas. Paul Oliver notes in 'Screening the Blues' that 'at some indeterminate time' in the 19th century, the 'run nigger run' and 'some tell me that a nigger won't steal' etc stanzas became associated with the song generally known as 'You Shall Be Free'. Odum collected a version in the early 20th century and published it in 1911. He stated that it 'was originally adapted from a religious song, "Mourner, You Shall Be Free"'. The song was widespread. Oliver notes its collection under titles such as 'There was an old nigger, his name was Dr Peck', 'Ain't no use of my working so hard', 'Ole Marse John, Pore Mournah', 'Po' Mona' etc. The latter had the chorus:
Po' Mona you shall be free Sigmund Spaeth published a version in 'Read 'Em and Weep' under the title 'Mona (You Shall Be Free) and commented that it 'represents the more sophisticated development of Negro folk music, with only a suggestion of the spiritual in the background'. Uncle Dave Macon recorded a version in 1926 under the title of 'Shout Monah, You Shall Be Free'. Bob Hyland in his notes to 'Dixie Dewdrop' Vetco LP 101 noted that the song was of 'spiritual and minstrel popularity' and 'has had all sorts of lyrics and titles'. It was later recorded on Columbia by Bill and Belle Reed as 'You Shall Be Free', on Victor by the Carolina Tar Heels as 'When the Good Lord Sets You Free' and, as a pop song, under the title 'Oh Monah'. Uncle Dave later sang versions on radio verses that differed greatly from his 1927 recording. --Stewie. |
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25 Sep 01 - 01:37 AM (#558018) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: wysiwyg Whoo-ee!, Stewie!!!! Might we hope for more lyrics then? Puh-LEEZE??? ~Susan |
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25 Sep 01 - 01:57 AM (#558027) Subject: Lyr Add: MOST DONE TRABELLIN' From: wysiwyg rich r, I dunno if these fit, but maybe someone who has these songbooks can see:
Mos' Done Toilin' Here, in the Second Book Of Negro Spirituals My index is not exhaustive-- others may have other hits on this as well. Here's one I do have-- anything like "Lingering"? (Post it?) ~S~ =======================================================
MOST DONE TRABELLIN' @spirituals SH |
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25 Sep 01 - 02:07 AM (#558031) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Looks like several songs, and variants therof, have been put together in various permutations. Whoops! Quite a sentence. Verses by Odum, Oliver and Spaeth cited by Stewie seem to show what can happen, in the 150 or more years after the "original" songs, which we can never collect in their earliest form. The verses with "'Most done ling'rin' here" from the earlier thread catches in my memory, I believe that I have heard it, but I may be deluding myself. Rich r, was there any more of it in that book? Or maybe someone can find a bit more somewhere... |
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25 Sep 01 - 02:14 AM (#558032) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: wysiwyg This also illustrates the value of an index that can be skimmed-- I have been making one in Excel. I would not think of searching on all those words, but if you skim the whole list, possibilities start to jump out at you as you soak up the dialect and the titling rationale. I'll have the index linked where you can see it very soon, BTW. There is a print index I hope to have a copy of soon, as well... these make it much easier to find the relationships between things. I think this is the first I have heard on the Oliver and Scarbourough works-- please say more about these so I can include them in the biblio I am working on for the African-American Spirituals Permathread. Any chance I could get a scan of the indexes for these? Love to have you guys helping with that permathread, too! ~Susan |
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25 Sep 01 - 02:20 AM (#558036) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: wysiwyg Missed two possibly-related:
I'm Almost Done Traveling, in Down-East Spirituals And Others ~S~ |
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25 Sep 01 - 02:38 AM (#558039) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: wysiwyg BTW, here's how they say "it" at Duke University's website: This site includes historical materials that may contain offensive language or negative stereotypes reflecting the culture or language of a particular period or place. These items are presented as part of the historical record. ~S~ |
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25 Sep 01 - 08:04 PM (#558752) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: raredance The Scarborough book is "On the Trail of Negro Folk-songs" by Dorothy Scarborough (1925, Harvard University Press)(reprinted in 1963 by Folklore Associates, Hatboro, PA). Emily Dorothy Scarborough was born in Texas in 1878. Her father was a district judge and trustee of Baylor University. She got a BA from Baylor in 1896 and MA in 1899. She taught in the public schools for a while and then became an English instructor at Baylor. She got a PhD from Columbia University in 1917 and taught creative writing and English until her death in 1935. She wrote a number of books, probably her most famous (at least to this group) was "A Songcatcher In the Southern Mountains" which was published after her death. her writing style is very chatty, devoting much space to describing the anecdotes relating top how she obtained this and that song including details about the people she got them from. As for "Most done Lingerin'Here" all the lyrics she had in the book are in the other thread. rich r |
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25 Sep 01 - 08:29 PM (#558774) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: wysiwyg Hm, thanks-- so you have that book? ~S~ |
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25 Sep 01 - 08:45 PM (#558787) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Finn McCool I agree with the post of Ms. Latina Lewis above. Let's avoid the use of racially or ethnically offensive epithets, even if the purpose is only to discuss their use in the abstract. I do not regard such advice as a form of censorship, but as a form of respect for those whose life experiences have sensitized them to such words. --Finn |
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25 Sep 01 - 08:54 PM (#558796) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Burke Praise, those words really remind me of an old song that's arranged in The Sacred Harp as Rocky Road. It can go on forever with different members of the family. I'm almost positive I've heard a non-Sacred Harp version as well, but I don't recall where. |
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25 Sep 01 - 09:31 PM (#558819) Subject: Lyr Add: DEATH SONG (Paul Laurence Dunbar) From: katlaughing Susan, I have an old rare book, which belonged to my grandmother, called "Howdy, Honey, Howdy" by Paul Laurence Dunbar. It was given to my grandmother in 1906 and was first copyrighted in 1896, published in 1905, and has photos of African Americans, many former slaves, I am sure, on every other page, with a poem/song on a certain theme to go with them. There are no tunes and I am not sure they were meant as songs, but I am wondering if they are the type of thing you might like to have copies of? It is too fragile to scan or copy, but I could post the words, at least, every once in awhile, for each one. Titles are:
Howdy, Honey, Howdy Here's an example, most of them are longer:
DEATH SONG
Lay me nigh to whah hit meks a little pool,
Let me settle w'en my shouldahs draps de load kat |
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25 Sep 01 - 10:10 PM (#558840) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: raredance ~S~, 'deed I do rich r |
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25 Sep 01 - 10:14 PM (#558842) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: wysiwyg Kat, I would love to see these, and I received something today you might like to see as well. It's a drawing of an old slave in front of the cabin, playing what looks like a cross between a bowed psaltery and a homemade fiddle, with a bent-stick bow looking like a child's archery implement. If you would like to see a scan of it, pls send me your e-mail address via PM and I will beam it over. Is it OK if I copy your post over to another thread as well as leaving it here? There are a couple of places it would fit right nice. How about to post the poems, you make a thread for them, and I will include that thread in the index thread? I don't recognize any of the titles, but when we see the words they may bring up some connections. BTW the one you posted-- did it become Bury Me Beneath the Willow??? *G* And Burke-- if that Rocky Road is not posted in the threads or DT, would you add it here in this thread? Thanks! ~Susan |
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25 Sep 01 - 11:02 PM (#558884) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: wysiwyg Ah, rich, now we're gona hafta come getcha. Lock it up, or look out! ~S~ |
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27 Sep 01 - 10:25 PM (#560409) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: raredance ~S~, I live where the weather keeps out the riff-raff, so good luck :-) rich r |
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27 Sep 01 - 10:59 PM (#560429) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: masato sakurai Susan, Paul Laurence Dunbar's digital text collection is here. Howdy Honey Howdy is in it. ~Masato |
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27 Sep 01 - 11:10 PM (#560438) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: wysiwyg rich, oy! "Hello, may I introduce myself? I'm Riff, he's Raff!" (The rector and his wife.) Masato, oy! ~Susan |
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28 Sep 01 - 12:08 AM (#560462) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: katlaughing Masato, thanks for the link. Wow! I now know why this book is so highly prized among collectors. It has always been a treasure to me, anyway. Knowing more about the author makes it even more so. kat |
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28 Sep 01 - 10:34 AM (#560736) Subject: Lyr Add: RUN MOURNER RUN (Sweet Honey in the Rock) From: GUEST,Irish Sergeant Susan: I have "Run, Mourner, Run" done by Sweet Honey in the Rock. The chorus goes: Oh, run, run, mourner, run. Bright angels above Oh, run, run, mourner, run. Bright angels above Oh, run, run, mourner, run. Bright angels above Oh, run, run, mourner, run. Bright angels above The verses follow that same pattern I show two: I would fly away to the kingdom/Bright angels above (x4) and You gotta escape for your life/bright angels above (x4). Hope it helps and for all the information. Kindest regards, neil |
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28 Sep 01 - 11:01 AM (#560760) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: wysiwyg Hmm........ have to look into that one Neil. Thanks! ~S~ |
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22 Dec 01 - 07:32 PM (#615021) Subject: Lyr Add: PO' MOURNER From: Stewie Here is a transcription of 'Po' Mourner' as recorded by Jules Allen for Victor in 1928. WARNING: Like many minstrel-derived pieces, these lyrics contain racist and offensive material.
PO' MOURNER
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22 Dec 01 - 09:34 PM (#615079) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: wysiwyg Thanks, Stewie-- good job and WELL-HANDLED. ~Susan |
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23 Dec 01 - 01:42 AM (#615196) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Rolfyboy6 There is a version of "Run, Mona, Run" called "Bright Angels." I can only recall the chorus:
Run Mona Run, run for your freedom,
See Sweet Honey in the Rock's CDs.
Bob Wills and his Texas Playboys performed "Run Mona Run" in the 30s and 40s. |
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23 Dec 01 - 09:01 PM (#615599) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Irish sergeant That's the one I have it on a CD of Civil War music.! Neil |
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03 Apr 02 - 02:58 PM (#682207) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: wysiwyg There seems to be another RUN MOURNER RUN sung by the Fisk Jubilee Singers. I heard it at the Kennedy Center Millenium Stage concert, a live and online-broadcast concert archived that you can hear too. Now where did I put that link.......... ~S~ |
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04 Apr 02 - 08:29 AM (#682724) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Joe in the'pool Very interesting thread, as a young person I was very used to the word (as observed by my various scars) and acted accordingly. As be-fitting my upbringing I fought with anyone who used the word nigger, which, with hindsight helped to develop my 'could'nt care about life' attitude 'if this is what it was all about'. That led to the usual 'off to the bad boys home for you laddo' where I discovered that the other black people there, had nearly all been through similar situations, i.e. If somebody calls you nigger act first think later, yeh right but, we're the ones who end up in prison, or worse! As an adult I have fought against injustices for ALL people (as do many, many people) and at this time in my life (47) I welcome young Black people getting used to the word without their hearts missing a beat and their blood boiling to a point of 'no return'. It's part of the history of the most vile way, langauge can be used against Black people, so lets take the power away from those who use it to insult and await a response, which use to mean 'Prison' for the black person. So, run nigger run aka run rabbit run or whatever other version, lets have the discussions, lets utilise the words in poems/songs etc. we know when it's part of a racist attack or a way of explaining history etc. we know who the enemy is and it's NOT the word it's the ACTION. Keep up the discussions..it plays a part in keeping young black people out of Prison, for a word!! Joe |
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04 Apr 02 - 09:38 AM (#682764) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: wysiwyg Thanks for your input, Joe. It's a complicated issue and there is much to consider, eh? ~Susan |
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04 Apr 02 - 08:48 PM (#683324) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Irish sergeant Joe; Thank you for your insightful post. It gives a person much to think about. Kindest regards, Neil |
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13 Apr 02 - 12:49 PM (#689183) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Amy has posted the gospel song, "Run Samson Run," which has the line in the chorus: "Run Samson Run, Delilah's gonna get you, ..." in thread 46271 (Lyr. Req: Run Boy Run ): Run Samson Run |
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22 Jan 03 - 10:31 PM (#872549) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: GUEST,Q See Po' Mona, Poor Mourner, and Good Lord Set You Free verses in thread 38691: Poor Mourner |
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14 Sep 09 - 12:59 PM (#2723474) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Suffet Greetings: I just uploaded an adapted version of Run...Run to the SoundClick website. I renamed it Run, Children, Run, and I wove together pieces of melody and text from several sources. Please click here to listen. --- Steve |
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14 Sep 09 - 03:09 PM (#2723555) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: meself I'm not familiar with the song, although I've known the title ever since seeing it on the back of a Skillet Lickers album thirty years ago or so. However, a while back I heard on internet radio an old recording (1920s?) of a harmonica player doing a "hunting" son which occasionally used that phrase, "run, N*gger, run" (apologies to those who are offended by asterisks) - but "N*gger" (apologies) was clearly the name of a dog. FWIW. |
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03 Oct 09 - 12:11 PM (#2737334) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Suffet Greetings: However the song may have evolved by the 1920s, the earlier versions were not about dogs but about human beings. The references to the paddarollers make that clear. In my own recorded version,* for example, I sing the refrain It's run, children, when the paddarollers come..." Paddarollers or patrollers were posses of armed white men who hunted down runaway slaves. They were not dog catchers. *Click here to listen. --- Steve |
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03 Oct 09 - 12:30 PM (#2737347) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: meself I was not trying to convince anyone that the song under discussion is actually about a dog - I was simply reporting that there is a song that uses the expression "run, N*gger, run" in which N*gger is a dog. There's no argument, and no call for sarcasm. But go ahead anyway and enjoy yourself. |
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03 Oct 09 - 12:36 PM (#2737355) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Q (Frank Staplin) The song is first noted in the 1851 "Serenaders Songbook," and later in "Slave Songs of the United States," Allen, Ware and Garrison, 1867. It definitely is about the patrollers and catching slaves. |
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03 Oct 09 - 01:15 PM (#2737380) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: meself No one is arguing it isn't, as far as I know. |
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04 Oct 09 - 01:20 AM (#2737731) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Suffet Meself, I wasn't trying to be sarcastic, and I'm sorry if my message came across that way. I was only trying to cite a fact about the earlier versions. Tone of speech and nuance do not come across well in this medium. Your comments are well taken. --- Steve |
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04 Oct 09 - 06:56 AM (#2737809) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Azizi Here is information about "paddyrollers" that I have gleaned several online sources which are noted in this post: "Slave patrols (called patrollers, pattyrollers or paddy rollers by the slaves) "apprehended runaways, monitored the rigid pass requirements for blacks traversing the countryside, broke up large gatherings and assemblies of blacks, visited and searched slave quarters randomly, inflicted impromptu punishments, and as occasion arose, suppressed insurrections. The patrollers generally made their rounds at night, with their activity and regularity differing according to time and place. And patrol duty was often compulsory for most able-bodied white males. Some professions were exempt, but otherwise avoiding duty required paying a fine or hiring a substitute." http://eh.net/bookreviews/library/0513 These slave patrols were composed of White men who were well to do "respectable" members of society as well as poor Whites. Armed with whips and guns, "paddyrollers" exerted a brutal and archaic brand of racial control that is inextricably linked to post-Civil War vigilantism and the Ku Klux Klan (KKK)." http://74.125.93.132/search?q=cache:oNn8nsnJK5oJ:www.rinr.fsu.edu/issue2001/slavery.html+paddyrollers&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us "Patrols used summary punishment against escapees, which included maiming or killing them." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slave_patrol "Slave patrols were populated in the beginning by people from all walks of life in the South, from wealthy land- and slave-owning aristocrats on down. Service in the patrols was required by law and refusal to perform patrol duty met with stiff fines. As such, Hadden writes, "Historians have routinely assumed that since patrollers did not stop every runaway, it matters little what patrols did; their uneven enforcement of the law must have diminished their impact on Southern history and slavery. As a result, the number of prominent slave histories that fail to mention even the existence of patrollers is startling. And when histories do include them, patrollers generally appear as little more than straw men, paraded for their inadequacies and little else. When mentioned at all, slave patrollers are drawn as poor, slaveless, sadistic whites of very low social rank. In fact, the dominant image is of Marks and Loker, the supremely evil slave-catchers of Uncle Tom's Cabin. But, as Hadden's research reveals, "Slave patrols between 1704 and 1721 frequently included men of superior social status, not just poor slaveless whites." And in a two-county study in Virginia, Hadden finds that "'Poor whites' does not describe the status of 18th century slave patrollers ...Typically, these men headed their own households. ...Half or more of all patrollers owned slaves, usually one to five slaves." http://books.google.com/books?id=WC7andkrJNcC&dq=slave+patrols+hadden&source=gbs_navlinks_s The book Slave Patrols Law and Violence in Virginia and the Carolinas by Sally E. Hadden, (Harvard University Press, 2001) is available online at http://books.google.com/books?id=WC7andkrJNcC&dq=slave+patrols+hadden&printsec=frontcover&source=bl&ots=MjXClVUCta&sig=v2ttH1zo5 ** Incidentally, the word "paddyroller" probably has no connection to "paddy, a pejorative referent for Irish people. Azizi Powell |
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04 Oct 09 - 07:49 AM (#2737837) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Suffet Azizi, Thank you for looking this up, condensing it, and posting it. As a former high school teacher in the USA, I can tell you from experience that very little attention is paid to slave patrols other than the brief mention that they existed. Much more attention is given to the Underground Railway, who are rightfully regarded for their heroic work, but who were rarely ever encountered. The slave patrols, on the other hand, were a constant fact of life in slave holding society. Maybe it's a reluctance to face the overwhelming and brutal reality of slavery in the Land of he Free. May it's a desire to find and applaud the few brave souls who resisted the slavocracy at great peril to themselves. Maybe it's both. --- Steve |
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04 Oct 09 - 07:55 AM (#2737841) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Azizi Correction: Here is information about "paddyrollers" that I have gleaned from several online sources which are noted in this post: |
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04 Oct 09 - 08:43 AM (#2737874) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Azizi You're welcome, Steve. And thank your for focusing attention on this history through your recording and your posts on this thread. With regard to your guesses about why very little attention is paid in American schools to the history of slave patrols other than the brief mention that they existed, I believe that it has much more to do with your first guess than with your second. Furthermore, in my opinion, the fact that the function of slave patrols and their role in maintaining slave codes (and not just in hunting down runaway slaves) is minimized has alot to do with the continued existence in the United States of institutionalized racism. Here's a definition of "institutionalized racism": "Those forces, social arrangements, institutions, structures, policies, precedents and systems of social relations that operate to deprive certain racially identified categories equality" http://dictionary.babylon.com/INSTITUTIONAL_RACISM As I'm sure that you know, Steve (as a former teacher), in the United States extbook publications are a powerful Eurocentric institution. Most textbooks used in American public schooks don't fully & accurately reflect the history of the United States or the full and accurate history of other nations. Because of this, persons who really want to learn more about these histories need to do independent research both online and off-line. |
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04 Oct 09 - 08:57 AM (#2737881) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Azizi Ahh!! Again, let me apologize for the typo. I meant to type "textbooks". I know that from certain typos new words are coined (like pwned). But my propensity to make typos is probably more a result of my Sun in Sagittarius (and Mercury & Jupiter in the same sign) and the fact that my Sagittarius Mercury is closely square my Ascendant in Virgo (not to mention that my Sun in Sagittarius is exactly opposite my Uranus in Gemini). And yes, I consider pyschological astrology to be one valid way for me to increase my understanding of myself and others. Besides all of that, my statements about astrology in this post are an attempt to "lighten" the seriousness of this thread. Positive vibrations :o) Azizi Powell |
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04 Oct 09 - 04:04 PM (#2738189) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: meself Steve - No problem; I appreciate your response. I was a little tired, and, as those near and dear to me can attest, I get a little grouchy when I get tired .... |
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04 Oct 09 - 04:53 PM (#2738228) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: Q (Frank Staplin) The Fugitive Slave Law of 1850 made it a crime to harbor escaped slaves, or to knowingly ignore their presence. Anyone who found an escaped slave or knew of one was required by law to report to Fedral marshals or other legal authority. This meant that anyone wishing to avoid trouble, well-to-do or not, reported fugitives, regardless of their feelings about slavery. In Kansas, Missouri and some other states, pro- and anti-slavery gangs attacked those holding the opposite view. It also contributed to the creation of patrollers, the bounty hunters of their time. The song mirrors history. |
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26 Jan 11 - 08:22 PM (#3083067) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: GUEST,Hellbilly I didn't see the lyrics to "Run Nigger Run" in this thread... are they available somewhere else on this Site? As a side note, stating one finds the word nigger offensive is as obvious as openly admitting one is opposed to the holocaust and crack-cocaine. But we're all glad you're champions of the people.
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23 Mar 20 - 02:41 PM (#4041617) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: GUEST,John Braden Two references found at the Library of Congress "Chronicling America" website: 1. Speaking in opposition of a plan to make the land west of the Blue Ridge non-slave, Mr. Thornton said, "In his imagination, he stood upon the Blue Ridge and observed with breathless anxiety the fugitive slaves passing from Eastern Virginia to the tune, 'Run, nigger, run, the patroler catch you." May 20, 1859 Richmond [Virginia] Enquirer p. 2, col. 2 2. "One of the rebel flags captured by General Curtis' troops, near Grand Glaize, in Arkansas, bore the following pleasant mottoes: 'Run, nigger, run! or Lincoln will catch you'" July 30, 1862 [Clearfield, Pa.] Raftsman's Journal p. 1, Col. 4. I'd like to see a discussion of the tune(s) attached to this song. Also, since the 1851 Serenaders' Songbook is not on line, it would help if someone would post the version of the song that allegedly apprears therein. |
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23 Mar 20 - 04:54 PM (#4041656) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: GUEST,Lighter A version of the great tune - with revised words: https://tinyurl.com/toyoahl |
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23 Mar 20 - 06:15 PM (#4041674) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: GUEST,Lighter This song slip in the Library of Congress may be it: RUN, NIGGER, RUN! OR THE M.P. 'LL CATCH YOU. De sun am set—dis nigger am free, De colored gals he goes to see; I heard a voice cry, "Run, dad, fech you! Run, nigger, run, or de M.P. 'll catch you! Chorus and repeat. Run, nigger, run, de M.P.'ll catch you! Run, nigger, run, tum a du daddle da! Spoken. — Oh! you ought to seen me dressed dat day. I had a pair ob dese United States gaiters, hem-stitched behind, made ober at Blackwell's Island; and den I had on dat pink snuff-colored coat, and den I had on dat green white satin vest, together wid a hickory mahogany cane, wid a gold brass feller on de bottom. Oh! dar wasnt room enough dat day for me. I knocked de people off of de side-walk, and some of de time I got knocked off; but I got dar at last, and rung de bell. She opened the door; then hung my hat up on the floor. I set down by her side about an hour, telling her dat I lubbed her, when all at once she swooned ober in de chair, and exclaimed, "Look dar!" Says I, Whar? when I looked ober toards the door, and there was a white mans face, peeping fro de crack ob the door; at the same time he exclaimed, What, Mr. Bones? Run, nigger, run, &c. Wid eyes erect, and head hanging down, Like de sprightly hare before de hound, Dis nigger streak it through de pasture, Nigger run fast, white man run faster. Spoken. — Well, I didn't zactly run; but I done some pretty tall walking. I went ober fences, fro fields, and I got drowned four times in the mud, an at last I got on the other side; an just as I passed the old corn crib, thar was a little boy come out from behind the crib, an he whispered in my ear, an told me to "What did he tell you to do, Mr. Bones?" Run, nigger, run, &c. And ober de fence, as slick as an eel, Dis nigger jumped—all but his heel; De white man caught dat fast you see, And tied it tight around de tree. Spoken. —Yes, just like all the niggers, the heel is the biggest part ob the foot, an' just as I jumped ober the fence, he coch me by the heel, an held me fast, an sez, "I got you now." Sez I, I dont know bout that; so he took an tied it three or four times 'round the tree, an' then I tought I was a goner, when all at once something fell out of the top of the tree, cut off my heel, an at the same time it exclaimed What, Mr. Bones? Run, nigger, run, &c. Dis nigger heard dat old whip crack, But nebber stopped for to look back; I started home as straight as a bee, And left my heel tied round de tree. Spoken. —Yes, there wur no time to stop an' look back then, kase I wur making bout a milemile an a halftwo milesthree miles ana halfor four miles to the minute. So ober the fence I went, knocked in the front door, upset the cook stove, spilt all the victuals ober the floor, scalded de old cook to deff, an knocked the old woman fro the front window ; den de old man got after me wid de broomstick, an ebery jump I took, he hollered out "What did he holler, Mr. Bones?" Run, nigger, run, &c. My *guess* is that "M.P." means "mounted patrol." |
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23 Mar 20 - 06:26 PM (#4041680) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: GUEST,Lighter Here it is in book form, credited to White: https://tinyurl.com/vaggmfg The woodcut shows that "M.P." should mean "metropolitan police." |
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23 Mar 20 - 06:27 PM (#4041681) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: GUEST,Starship https://wikivisually.com/wiki/Run,_Nigger,_Run Perhaps someone with better eyes could handle this, but I think it duplicates Lighter's post. |
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23 Mar 20 - 06:43 PM (#4041684) Subject: Lyr Add: Run, Johnny, Run From: cnd Starhip - the link you shared does match Lighter's post. I have an album by noted Ozark folk music historian and songwriter Jimmy Driftwood (the album is Music of the Ozarks, produced by National Geographic) and Driftwood swears the song started life as a bootlegging song, as "Run Johnny Run." He writes: "Alexander Hamilton’s excise tax of 1791--a special whiskey tax--caused an insurrection in western Pennsylvania in 1794. President Washington sent federal troops to put down the riots. Out of this squabble came ”Run, Johnny, Run,” a song about a moonshiner and his trials with the law. During our Civil War, the Northerners sang a version called “Run, Johnny Reb.” Southerners didn’t like the song, but they liked the tune, so they sang it “Run, Nigger, Run." History has changed the lyrics of many a good old tune, but I had rather sing “Run, Johnny, Run”--even though I have been accused of tampering with the song. Here I play the mouth bow, perhaps mankind’s oldest musical instrument. Made of hickory in the form of a regular hunting bow, it’s played like a jew’s harp." On my quick search of Mudcat, I didn't see his version here so I thought I'd add it here. As sung on that album (though you can find a much more rousing version that I prefer online here to the dirge-like version on the album) Johnny was down at the moonshine still, In the bottom of a holler at the foot of the hill. He woke up ’bout the break of day And he thought he heard his grandpa say, Refrain “Run, Johnny, run, the federals will get you Run, Johnny, run, you better get away.” Johnny stopped at the top of the hill, And he saw them federals around his still, They busted the barrel and the boiler, too, And started drinking his mountain dew. Refrain The feds caught Johnny making a run, And they took him up to Washington, Put him to work for the government Making moonshine for the President. Refrain Johnny got rich at the government stills, And he ran off to his home in the hills. Now the federals are on his tracks He still owes a dollar on the whiskey tax. |
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23 Mar 20 - 07:15 PM (#4041690) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: GUEST,Starship Thank you, cdn, much obliged. If a mod wishes to delete my post then please do. |
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23 Mar 20 - 07:17 PM (#4041691) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: GUEST,Starship I'm on a roll today. I meant cnd. Very sorry. |
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23 Mar 20 - 07:32 PM (#4041693) Subject: RE: Slavery-Era Song, 'Run, ======, Run' From: GUEST,Lighter I can't believe there's any documentation to show that "Run, Johnny, Run" is a product of the Whisky Rebellion. If there is, where is it? "Federals," however, is a perfectly likely replacement for "patteroles", and was commonly used for Union troops in the Civil War. And "Johnny," of course, meant a Southern soldier. So that much topical adaptation in a state like Missouri, which supplied 100,000 troops to the Union cause, would be perfectly believable - if not provable. |