for all who wish for war

22 Oct 01 - 01:53 PM (#577453)
Subject: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU

A friend is writing to Bin Ladin to, as Quakers say, hold him to the light. I sent this responce to my friend, as what I would say to Mr. Bin Ladin, and those on this side who wish to settle this violently...
I have to take some time and put this more sucinctly, but, I think perhapes I would write to him Bin Ladin) on the nature of war and peace. In many thousands of years, no religion or political idea has been able to become domanent by killing enough of all the others to be the only truth, and no killings have ever been enough to balance the scales of justice, killing one to avenge the death of another. In short, after we tire of killing and hurt, we always make peace. Let us be more sensible and efficent and tire of the killing today and make peace.
Yours in God
Larry

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22 Oct 01 - 02:08 PM (#577461)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: DougR

Larry, you would be doing the world a big favor if you could convince Bin Laden you are right.

DougR

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22 Oct 01 - 02:14 PM (#577465)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: paddymac

Larry, my friend, I would dearly love to agree with you on the this matter, but we are not in a position to be able to extend an olive branch at the moment. We are now painfully aware that we are facing proponents of a theocratic philosophy which is fundamentally incompatible with our notions of free and democratic societies, however imperfect they may be. Our opponents presume to speak for all of Islam, but they do not. The faction that they do represent, however, is not insignificant, is every bit as vile as Hitler's fascism, and means to extirpate those who do not share their view from the earth. The only option that I see is to take them out. Period.

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22 Oct 01 - 02:23 PM (#577470)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk

We all have free will, so let each one use it in the way that seems best according to his highest concept of life.

In that way, each person can pursue his idealism to its best ends, and learn as he goes, from direct experience. We will never all agree on what is best to be done in any particular situation, but we live and learn.

When I use the phrase "to take someone out", I mean to dinner or to a movie or something pleasant like that...

So, Larry, you have my agreement on this one.

- LH

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22 Oct 01 - 02:26 PM (#577471)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Don Firth

Achieving peace invariable involves compromise, and it's not easy to compromise with someone who wants you dead.

Don Firth

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22 Oct 01 - 02:28 PM (#577474)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk

Nobody wants me dead. You may think someone does, but I know for a fact that it is not so. :-)

- LH

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22 Oct 01 - 03:17 PM (#577506)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST

Your point is? Little Hawk... Everyone else can die because its not me personally involved? You cannot appease tigers; and if you try, it is only in the vain hope they will eat you last.

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22 Oct 01 - 03:18 PM (#577507)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: wildlone

I think it was Thomas Hardy who wrote
"After two thousand years of mass,
We've got as far as poison gas"
dave

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22 Oct 01 - 04:31 PM (#577545)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk

My point was a spiritual one. Depends on which level you interpret it. Do whatever you think is right and best. That's what I do. I don't wish to see anyone die unnecessarily.

- LH

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22 Oct 01 - 05:40 PM (#577587)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU

Well, if our leaders really wish to stop all the killing, why are they proposing we send Irish illegals home without due process, rather than taking all their hidden money out of Swiss banks, and ending the practice of anonimous transactions. Fact is, they want to rape and pillage while keeping others from doing the same. I am fucking tired of it. This is not to say who ever did this terrible thing was in any way justified, just that we cannot expect to terrorise anyone back to stop them, while continuing to treat the rest of the world as our pantry while people are in need elsewhere.
Larry

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22 Oct 01 - 05:59 PM (#577599)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk

What they wish for is not to "stop all the killing", but to achieve victory...on their terms and theirs only. That is what their erstwhile opponents in Al Queda and the Taliban wish for also...victory. And so it goes...tit for tit.

If you live in New York City, this obviously makes life a bit riskier than if you live in some small town that hardly anyone's heard of...kind of like being at the center of the bullseye. (Gee, doesn't it make you feel all warm and secure hearing others urging massive counterstrikes for the WTC on your behalf, Larry?)

If you live near Kabul or Kandahar, the very same problem applies. Note the flow of refugees fleeing Afghanistan.

In both cases, it is ordinary people who would just as soon go on living a quiet and harmless life who are most likely to suffer the damage inflicted by those heavily armed zealouts who are out there seeking vengeance and victory.

- LH

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22 Oct 01 - 06:28 PM (#577627)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST

I think Little Hawk that you have finally grasped why they are fleeing. Not from the bombs, but from the insane terrorists who are running the country. Blindly spitting in the face of the western democracies, using their corruption of Islam to justify the mass murder of business people from over 62 countries. They turned commercial flights into instruments of war, and destroyed innocent lives without remorse. Now I understand the noble aspirations of gentle people who oppose violence; in fact their cries for compromise, and a return to civilized international dialogue, are those desires which make the great democracies truly a model to follow. But you must understand that all attempts at allowing peacefull negotiation have failed. The Taliban not only oppress the Afghans (sorely tried by years of warfare) but they totally disregard the rule of international law. The USA are now enforcing the fact that negotiation and compromise can only be adhered to if all the sides are willing to try. Clearly this has not been the case, and that this war is not only justified, it is vital to teach these morons that you cannot accomplish religious bigotry and repression by violence, without suffering terrible retribution from your victims. Once this lesson is learned world peace may actually become fact and not fiction. The space age hords of Ghengis Khan will perish first methinks. Golda Meier was a very brilliant woman she once stated quite factually "the only time there will be peace with Israel will be when the Arabs love their children more than they hate the jews" That statement holds true with the USA (NATO) Sir William Stephenson (Intrepid) the head of the British secret service in WW2 stated to his biographer " What seems poignantly obvious to me is that humankind already has awesome enemies to engage- poverty, disease, and ignorance, for example-and in such common cause there is reward and glory for all". The problem is that until people take responsibility for their circumstances and stop blaming history, England and the USA for all the world ills and get on with building locally, the peace we all should aspire to; then it will require the strong armed defence of liberty and the application of the ideals of justice and human rights. As much as I respect InOBU I cant help but ask why he thinks a letter from him would make any difference to these rabid dogs? and his reference to laying all the blame back on the USA for these mindless acts of destruction. I cant help thinking that the only reason he can utter such remarks and form these opinions is that armed men and women dedicate their lives to defending him and the country that granted him the right to do so.

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22 Oct 01 - 06:38 PM (#577642)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: ddw

Larry,

Would that you were right, but a hard look at history tells me you have about as much chance of reasoning with a mad dog. Zealots like bin Laden (plug in whatever name you want from history of his ilk) think in a circle and logic is linear. They can't get from point A to point B, because B lies outside th circle and any attempt to straighten the circle to get there is another "trick" of the opposition. Same shit as trying to reason with a born-again Christian. It's a waste of breath.

That said, and with pretty good evidence that bin Laden, the Taliban and al-Qaida are pretty committed to killing us, I think the choice is clear. You go in, kill as surgically as possible to get as few non-combattants as you can, and wipe out the idiocy.

APPEASEMENT DOESN'T WORK.

david

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22 Oct 01 - 08:08 PM (#577731)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST

Thank you for your efforts Larry and that of your fellow Quakers. It may not make any diifference, but at least it is a breath of sanity.

I have a couple of questions,

1 Why is it that anyone (myself included) that suggests addressing causes rather than symptoms feel the necessity to make explicit their horror at the slaughter in New York? Can this not be taken as read in view of our common humanity?

2., but those who a advocate military response, onstrufe ,

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22 Oct 01 - 08:13 PM (#577733)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST,pete m @ work

Arrggh bloody IE, always trying to be clever!

As I was saying before I was rudely interrupted:

Thank you for your efforts Larry and that of your fellow Quakers. It may not make any diifference, but at least it is a breath of sanity.

I have a couple of questions,

1 Why is it that anyone (myself included) that suggests addressing causes rather than symptoms feel the necessity to make explicit their horror at the slaughter in New York? Can this not be taken as read in view of our common humanity? 2. The US has always rightly prided itself on being a nation founded on the rule of law. Why then the military action against Afghanistan, preceeded by demands and threats rather than a request for extradition of Bin Laden to the Hague, if the evidence against him is so strong?

Pete M

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22 Oct 01 - 08:15 PM (#577736)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU

Well let's see, What I have seen and continue to see, is that when we take the easy reactionary responce of killing the killers we often almost always return other killers to power, for example even the US gov. expresses a concern that if the Northern Alience enters Kabul, they will just become the new Taliban. Rumaninans shot Chercescu and put similar bastards in power, We killed the president of Soutn Veit Nam, our bastard who got out of control, and well it just happens again and again. Lets just stop doing the same damn thing again and again? When do we learn? You think you can scare a suiside bomber into not doing it again??? THink about it? Do you think you can kill enough of his family that he wont do it again??? Israel tried and to what end.
I am not talking about apeasment, I am talking about working for a just world. Where where all the hawks when we of faith and caring were demanding help for the women of Afganistan, now suddunly they are an issue when it sutes those who wish to use them as part of the reason we should kill in their nation.
Please think with your heads - more of your head than your limbic system.
Larry

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22 Oct 01 - 09:04 PM (#577763)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: ddw

Larry,

A lot of us do use our heads to think, but we start from the basis of human nature as revealed by history, not as we would wish it to be. You can tout the benefits of reason all you want, but you can't sell it to unreasonable people and the unreasonable — for reasons of laziness, stupidity, other priorities or whatever — will always outnumber those actually capable of and willing to think.

I spent a few years of my life — from about age 20 to 26 — making the same arguments you are. Then I realized the difference between the empirical and the normative worlds and decided to live in the empirical. You should give it a try. Calls for making some nasty choices occasionally, but at least you get to actually DO something, rather than sit around and whine that things should be better.

cheers,

david

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22 Oct 01 - 09:19 PM (#577771)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST, I, hurricane

Larry, we all know you were closest to ground zero and have afforded you deference in light of that knowledge. Your opinions are likely to carry added weight from your personal experience. May I politely and sincerely suggest that you have advantages to squander if you so choose, with, perhaps, a hint of condescension.

Dan

To answer your probably rhetorical questions:

Virtually no one wishes for war.
The Taliban are not a legitmate government by international conventions. They are thugs refusing to cooperate.
Killing or imprisoning bin Laden is not to scare him. It is intended to deactivate him personally.
Israel still exists.
A just world is not a short term viable objective. It is a long term ideal.
Yes, it appears that Afghanistan was an unfortunate sin of omission during Clinton's tenure. That's water under the bridge.

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22 Oct 01 - 09:35 PM (#577785)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST, I, hurricane

P.S. No one of any significance has said we should kill anyone because Taliban are not nice to women.

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22 Oct 01 - 11:26 PM (#577853)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk

Hey, GUEST, I would have fled Afghanistan myself, years ago, if I were there and had the means to...be assured. On the other hand, when you've grown up in a little village in the mountains and it's the only reality you've ever known, then it may not seem like such an obvious choice. A lot of people tend to hunker in and just try to survive in such a situation.

I fear that if the Taliban fall, another regime will shortly be in place that will be equally bad...the Northern Alliance do not have a good past record. On the other hand, almost anything might be an improvement, I suppose. That's assuming the Taliban are decisively defeated, which may or may not happen. They may just hang on longer than anyone thinks. We'll see.

Don't forget that the utterly insane Kymer Rouge were backed by money and arms from the CIA and China! (Talk about strange bedfellows) Vietnam finally kicked them out of Cambodia, due to chronic border skirmishes, among other things.

Vietnam oughta get a Nobel prize on behalf of a grateful humanity for that particular effort, despite their lousy human rights record within their own borders during the same period...they were a vast improvement over Pol Pot.

One other thing to remember...everyone on either side of this dispute (or any other) looks upon the other guys as "thugs refusing to cooperate" or to listen to reason. That's how many people in the Islamic countries see Israelis and Americans...as arrogant thugs with high-tech weapons.

If any one of you (including me) had been born in a different family, in a different country, then it is very likely that our views would be radically different. This doesn't mean we are born evil in nature, it means we have only a partial view of reality. One person's thug is another person's hero. One person's terrorist is another person's martyr.

To know this is to experience compassion, and to work for peace, not further bloodshed.

Peace can only be achieved through greater equality, on all levels of life, not through the temporary victory of one side over the other.

Equality. That is something worth working toward, and who can say that it is unjust to do so.

I don't want victory, I want equality. When I walk among equals, I have no reason for fear. When I walk among beaten enemies, I fear the knife in my back at any moment.

- LH

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22 Oct 01 - 11:57 PM (#577863)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Ebbie

Hear, hear, LH!

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23 Oct 01 - 12:05 AM (#577869)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST, I, hurricane

Little Hawk: Are you seriously suggesting that I or anyone try to get in touch with bin Laden's feelings, or those of his al queda membership, or those of the Taliban elite? That any of them are not thugs? That I'm as much a thug as Osama bin Laden? Dan

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23 Oct 01 - 12:06 AM (#577870)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST, I, hurricane

That it's just a CULTURAL THING?

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23 Oct 01 - 12:07 AM (#577871)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: ddw

That's all interesting, LH, but weren't a lot of the people the Taliban put on trial trying — to one degree or another — to follow the path you espouse?

Peace, love and equality are nice concepts, but a reality check tells me there's little of it around now, there has been precious little of it in the past and there's little chance of it in the future.

Peace can never last as long as there are scarce commodities (food, building materials, oil, fish, whatever) to fight over.

Love can exist, but only with its attached opposite, hate. The more you love a person, place, god or whatever, the more imperative it is that you kill anyone or anything that threatens it.

Equality never has and never will exist. We can legislate equality of opportunity, but only with the inevitable outcome that all standards will be lowered to the mediocre, way below anything we would consider excellence. But there will always be people who are smarter or stronger or more ambitious than others and I've never heard of — in life, history or science fiction — any society or social institution that could level the playing field for long.

cheers,

david

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23 Oct 01 - 01:03 AM (#577885)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk

Dan, I am not suggesting you are a thug at all. I don't know you. I know I'm not a thug (I'm basically non-violent in nature), and I doubt that you are one either.

I am suggesting that we all tend to carry prejudices that we are unaware of. In unstable or more violent personalities that can quickly contribute to becoming a thug, that's for sure...or it can contribute to becoming a "freedom fighter" or whatever else one could call it.

ddw - Well, I am a philosopher by nature, not a general or a politician. If I was a general, I'd probably have my mind set on achieving victory. Then again, the most brilliant politicians sometimes have a strong philosophical bent, but those types are relatively rare in politics. Most are simple pragmatists, after victory also.

You say that love cannot exist without its attached opposite, hate. A fascinating statement! In a world based on the notion of limited and separated things, that is quite correct. Yet all the highest spiritual teachings I've studied (from numerous traditions) suggest that that world is in a sense illusory...that it's merely a preliminary pathway toward a higher understanding in which all things are seen in a single unity...like a hologram.

A hologram may appear to contain many separate things within it, yet if you take the very tiniest part of it, you will find within that part the image of the WHOLE HOLOGRAM! This is explained in the spiritual traditions as the indwelling divine unity, the One, revealing itself within all the apparently separated things that make it up as a whole...and which arise out of it.

Okay. I realize I'm ranging far afield here. But I am serious.

We subject children to more rules and restrictions than we do adults. That's partly because they are not yet aware of nearly all the factors in a situation which an adult is generally presumed to be aware of. So we let children believe in the simple concepts of good guy/bad guy, like in the comics. Real life is more complex than that.

In just such a way, a person who thinks in terms of separation, will always divide the world up in terms of good guys/bad guys...love/hate...all the usual dualities.

A person who sees an undivided unity (a single human race, for example) won't do that, but will strive only for the good in all circumstances, only for love.

I realize it probably sounds like sheer mumbo jumbo, and from a separated point of view, it is. But from a unified point of view, it's not. When you genuinely see the other person as you, you can no longer willfully do harm to them. I haven't reached that yet, but I am certainly aspiring towards it.

As for equality, I've seen and heard of numerous situations where far greater efforts have been made in that direction than are being made at present in most societies. It is possible. You are correct that it would mean a lowering of North American lifestyles (at first). I frankly wouldn't mind that, because I've lived in far simpler lifestyles and been happier for it...and healthier.

I kid you not. We are sick little birds in our gilded cages here, wasting our precious time on way too much virtual reality and materialistic excess. I know this, because I do it myself on a regular basis. Why? Because I'm weak. I am easily distracted into wasting my time on stuff like trying to explain unified spiritual field theory to people who mostly couldn't care less about it or even give it consideration. :-)

Whether you are one of those people I don't know.

I believe that Love and Knowledge are about the only 2 things that ultimately are real. When they become complete, they are the same thing...complete LOVE = complete KNOWLEDGE.

I regard hate as an illusion that springs out of concepts of limitation and separation and fear...which doesn't mean it's totally useless...it's a stepping stone in order to have experiences which eventually awaken the soul to the fact that the original notion is an illusion which no longer serves it.

That doesn't mean people who hate are not dangerous. They are...on a physical basis. I try to avoid them, and if I cannot avoid them, then I deal with them whatever way I best can, under the circumstances, but I do not seek to imitate them and sink to their level. And yes, there are times when one had best fight the good fight in defence of oneself or others. We may have different ideas about when is the right time for that.

You state that there will always be people who are smarter, stronger, or more ambitious. Absolutely! In an enlightened system those are the very people who do their best to raise less capable people up to a higher understanding and expression of life. In other words, through natural leadership they render service unto their weaker bretheren. They do not dominate, they serve. I have always been happy to take direction and leadership from people whom I clearly saw were more capable than myself at this or that thing. That's natural.

The doing of a beautiful work is itself the greatest reward. Not the money. Not the recognition, but the doing of the work. It is through that doing itself that the soul is ennobled and made more complete.

So....now that you all probably think I'm totally nuts (and off-topic!), I can shrug, take it in good humour, and go get a good night's rest.

Sleep well yourself,

- Little Hawk

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23 Oct 01 - 08:06 AM (#577961)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU

Our friend ddw puts forward "Then I realized the difference between the empirical and the normative worlds and decided to live in the empirical. You should give it a try. " Well... I have lived in both rather deeply. My scores on the logic section of the LSATS, where in the 100% nationwide. Now, as most of the real eggheads in logic go to law school that is pretty sucessful living in the empirical world, I grant you, but, I also fished a currach off the coast of Ireland, I traveled with hunter gatherer Indians in the far north of Canada, and worked as a photo journalist in Belfast, I have spent late nights in devanos (councils) with American Roma (Gypsies) and I have seen many many problems there, from Ireland having their fishing rights sold out from under the people to Native lands being stollen as I write this, to wars being kept smoldering for the benifit of NATO, and the answer that is human nature is pure bull. Fact is, read a few of Richard Leaky's speachs (the son of Louis and Mary Leaky). He went from ANthoropology to politics after loosing both legs in a plane crash.
At that point he realised that the real core of human nature is empathy. The modern money driven world makes empathy the enamy. We make war on empathy and call that resulting cold hearted politic which makes electricity for New York by destroying the lives of Innu and Cree human nature! I hear Morely's ghost screaming HUMANITY WAS MY BISSINESS, as he rattles his chains and ask you do the same. Go get on a bus - a plane, go and see Innu villages which have the highest instance of child suiside, where teens are killing themselves as their world is eaten by North Eastern American states for electricity, while our roofs are bare, hardly a single solar panal, cause our electric companys don't want to make electricity they want to make money. Wake up, THAT IS THE NORMATIVE WORLD! It has real palpable victems who bleed and die. WAKE THE F*CK UP!
Lovingly
Larry

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23 Oct 01 - 09:19 AM (#578008)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST

InOBU I suggest you wake the fuck up.... You are not the only person who cares about these people. We have survived many years of trying to work towards justice and equality for all. The northern peoples have the highest suicide rate because they try to live in a world that no longer exists. While I admit they have been for the most part been administered by a stupid system of socialist government, that has consistently failed them. They are responsible for the present conditions they choose to remain in.. Treaties that were signed 200 years ago no longer apply, and the pathetic attempts at enforcing them result in greed and stupidity amongst those who would not agree to work within a common law. You seem to think that war should not be used to contain and diffuse Bin Laden... May I suggest that you remember the first attempt at destroying the WTC failed. You cannot negotiate with someone who is trying to kill you until you have him by the balls kicking and screaming for mercy, or dead at your feet. Try it sometime, you might find a different perspective on life. I am not interested in your personal resume, ego and beliefs. Discuss the issue without trying to insult people. Many people who have different viewpoints may share the same goal as you. Your style of debate would turn them away from discussing the issue.

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23 Oct 01 - 09:35 AM (#578015)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Irish sergeant

Never mind all the nobility being espoused here. It is wasted in a piece of crap like Osama Bin Laden. Why? He declared war on the United States years ago, (Not to mention his native Saudi Arabia. I will be the first to admit that our policies Inre the Middle East need to be updated and more culturally sensitive but let's do that after the self appointed guardian of Islam is dispatched and I mean DEAD so there is no mistake. What his minions did is no less an act of war than the Japanese attack on Pearl harbor! At least the Japanese attacked a miltitary target. As to the Taliban, They were asked several times and knowing what our position regarding Bin Laden was, refused to turn him over even before the attacks of September 11. He was after all and still is the primary suspect in the attack on the USS Cole. In every nation in the world, if you sheild a killer yopu are an accessory to murder. In international usage by their failure to turn over Bin Laden they are rightly aggressors with the Al Quaeda. They could have avoided this whole mess by turning Bin Laden over to Pakistan or to the Hague. The U.S. would have accepted that condition. Instead, the Taliban wants to play games. This weeks game is war. Sucks to be them. Neil

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23 Oct 01 - 09:35 AM (#578016)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST,Greg F.

Dear GUEST Chickenshit: if you're going to come out with this crap, at least don't hide behind anonymity. Even assholes have names.

Thanks, Greg

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23 Oct 01 - 09:43 AM (#578019)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST,swoopy

I wouldn't advocate sending Asama bin laden a transcript of this thread

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23 Oct 01 - 09:44 AM (#578022)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU

I never seace to be amazed a people who believe all who chose to live as they always have, and not in YOUR world, are living in the past. One group of people have not inherted the right to live in the modern world by stealing from others who live in THEIR modern world of hunting and gathering. It is ecconomic fundamentalism which is as destructive as religious fundementalism. As to personal attacks, I do appologise if I have made ad hominum attacks by saying wake up. My wife wakes me up every morning. Some times with "Larry Wake THE FUCK UP!" She means well, you need to get up early in New York to get by... As to hiding behind anonimity, well, to each his own. I do perfer to speak face to face, or name to name, but well this is now the world in which we live.
If you think the Innu live in a world that has no right to exist anymore, because you want their streams for your electicity, well, once the salmon are gone, and the bears that depend on them, and the dear who depend on bears thining the herds and the carabou who are part of the cycle, and the lichen and bacteria that exist on the lichen... well remember when we tried to recreate an ecco system in a dome, we couldn't do it. So, live in the modern world! I would rather live in the world created for us by a far more intelligent power.
Yours in the light (and the one big union)
Larry Otway

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23 Oct 01 - 10:02 AM (#578035)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Amos

Anyone who "wishes for war" is an ass. War is about the stupidest confession ofhuman aberration ever seen, and its historical popularity is a grim testament to human insanity.

On the other hand, failing to face up to evil is equally insane. Larry is clearly doing his part to confront some parts of the evil in the world. Seems to me there is no question the Knights of the Quesadilla are pretty much engaged in evil, regardless of their rationalized justifications. And given that they have carried that evil into the midst of our cities, I don't see where our alternative lies other than to use as much force as needed to unman this psychosis. This is true whether or not we have committed harm in earlier incidents.

While there may be a lot of corners in the organization behind our composite civilization, where greed and profit motives overweigh more rational goals, I would also have to add that the 5 to 6 thousand people who got wiped from life last month were mostly just trying to do what good they could, build some sort of future, and get along and get ahead -- in short, to pursue happiness. Their right to do so got violently curtailed by an act of war. That cannot be gainsaid regardless of the complexity of antecedent offenses.

Larry, what do you suggest the Administration should be doing about that?

A.

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23 Oct 01 - 10:46 AM (#578064)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU

Saint Augustine, I believe it was, said he did not believe that there was a devil, that evil was not a thing, not a force of evil, but was a void. Evil was the absence of good. It was the absence of order, the absence of love, the absence of care, the absence of reasoned thought, a void.
The void of evil cannot be filled with more evil. George Fox once said that I cannot believe that that which is forbidden in the comandments is then allowed in another circumstance.
It is very hard in the face of so many very good people being killed to live our principles, even for Quakers. We are angered as well, but more, we are deeply sorrowful.
How do we fill the void? Well, at present, we are the child who does not share his toys, and the abused kid, whose parents beat on him every night has just punched him in the nose. The teacher sits the hitter in the corner, but the other spoiled rich kid, continues to not share his toys... Is the little pscho kid going to learn his lesson? Likely not.
If we as a nation, take on world hunger, take on issues of production without exploitation, of teaching tolerance, than we might live in a less frightening world. It is harder, takes more national resolve than bombing people into submission, but there you are, the result is filling the void of evil with good.
We dehumanize people and governments who do evil, and it makes it possible for us to ignore our part in making a world that does not make evil people. Is it just cooincidence that crime occures more readily among folks with less equal opportunity? Victorian writers tried to say that crime was genetic that the English working class were a separate degenerate race, and it made it possible to use force against crime rather than fairness against crime. We go on and on, using force in the face of reason, and goading others to use force in return. It is so very very simple, and yet, no one wants to do the hard work of applying the obvious solutions.
In our neighborhood we have Syrains, Bosnians, Irish, Yugoslaves, so many who have seen generations of war. All of them I have spoken to are 1. shocked at the news comentary that we are hated for our freedoms, 2. afraid to speak out in this land of liberty to say it is not your freedoms but the excesses paid for in other nations that is at the root of hatred.
Now, as in any crime, it is not the majority of those who resent our excesses who act out, it is a small minority, and our excesses do not justify the violence sent our way, but it will happen with certainty if we do not begin to work on the root causes of disatisfaction.
All the best
Larry

---

23 Oct 01 - 10:48 AM (#578066)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST

Sometimes I wonder...everyone thinks that war is so horribly wrong, yet it has been a part of humanity since the beginning. Why not assume it is something natural? Vultures are carnivores by nature. Carnivores rely on eating dead animals. Should we try and convert all the vultures to vegetarians?

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23 Oct 01 - 11:25 AM (#578086)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Amos

War is something NATURAL?

Give me an effing break here. It may be natural the way having a lizard brain is natural, but your analogy of converting vultures is deeply flawed. We have ahistory of working away from our worst sides and toward our various ideals. Embracing our deepest psychotics as our natures would be the ethical equivalent of the druggy driveby shooter who takes out a little girl at the corner traffic light "because I felt like it, man!".

I dunno about you, but succumbing to my darkest impulses because they are part of my "nature" is not part of any intention I have, and I would suspect such a notion would indicate a complete lack of intention on the part of the proponent -- an apathetic retreat into zero-responsibility, life as a wistless cork.

No thanks, pal. I prefer to believe there are better ways of being human, and to look for them.

A.

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23 Oct 01 - 11:54 AM (#578110)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU

Amos said it all, and thanks brother, but I would only add, does that also go to justify murder and rape? No wonder he or she does not share a name with us!
Cheers Larry

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23 Oct 01 - 12:11 PM (#578125)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Dave Wynn

Was going to war against Hitler and Hirohito right and justified in 1939-1945 then? I for one am glad that "we" did. I hope this doesn't brand me as "succumbing to my darkest impulses" or as a "wistless cork"

Spot

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23 Oct 01 - 12:26 PM (#578132)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU

Well, that war is always the troubling point for many. I have a number of friends who went into that war when the US and Britain still did not see a need to do so, for example my friend Jock, who was in the Abraham Lincoln Brigade. Of course, the real question is why did American corporations build up the Nazi state when so many here knew of the evil of Nazism, in fact the John Rockafella and the Morgan Trust bank worked with the Nazis through out the war. Nazism would not have been able to rearm without the aid of the Swiss banks and American corporations, so the time to have stoped Hitler was long before the holocaust. I would remind you that we did not bomb the rail lines to Auswitz, so the war to stop genocide was not really that. I know I have avoided the core question to a small degree, but here we are at a time when we have the need for other options, Bin Ladin does not have tank corps which can be opposed in open battle, rather there is the smoldering hatred of a single fellow with a bomb, and armies are never good at opposing that, more changing the world is a better way of defuseing that. So, though I admitt to avoiding the core question, the core question has little or nothing to do with this situaiton.
I would also point you to the carreer ending work of the late Congressman Bingham of Ct. who was in the US consulate in the south of France. He was the only US diplomat honnored by the UN this past year for smuggling jews and others out of occupied France. Like many of the other diplomats, his nation, the US destroyed his carreer as a diplomat for going against national policy. So, why do we fight wars, I don't know, it is seldom for the reasons the history books give. I just hope you are one of those who goes against what the mainstream demands of you and you help the exile and the hungery, that does much more to end war than making a bigger blood stain.
Larry

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23 Oct 01 - 12:27 PM (#578136)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU

PS I love your handle Spot! It makes one want to say "Good Boy!" no matter what the post. Best wishes, and a scratch behind the ears from Larry

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23 Oct 01 - 12:30 PM (#578138)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST

Ah...I see. So the darkly psychotic druggy drive-by shooter gets the gas chamber and bin Laden gets a religious conversion to a man of peace? How come no one is holding the psychotic druggy in the light?

---

23 Oct 01 - 12:47 PM (#578143)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU

You assume to much! I don't believe in caitol punishment also. I not only hold the psycotic druggy in the light, I have worked on class 1 A drug fellony cases. When I went into law, I though that those cases would be the hardest to stomach, and yet to my great surprise, I found that drug deelers are human as well. One sticks out in my mind, an older Black man, who had spent most of his life in the army, the early part of that time, in a segrigated army. He spent most of his elderly life in a federal prison. Even the judge, a rather conservative fellow, saw the humanity in the man, and gave him the minimum under the Rockefeller laws, 10 to life. The judge said if he had any discretion under the laws, he excersise it all. Now this fellow had not been involved in murder - but I have yet to find someone in their right mind beyond the reach of the light. I don't believe Bin Ladin is insane, he has committed insane acts, but unfortunatly he subscribes to the majority convention that if you are hit you hit back harder. and Jeasus weeps.
Larry
PS as does Allah, Budha, Krishna, and fill in the blanks...

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23 Oct 01 - 12:48 PM (#578144)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Amos

PuppySpot:

You appear to have misconstrued my point. Apathetic indifference to "right action" is what I was condemning, not stepping forwrad to stop a psychotic situation.

Larry is right in his implicit argument: with enough intelligence, compassion and a deep understanding of what drives people to the edge of violence, we could do everything with good PR and compassionate organizational work (including enterprise funding, etc.) that we now back our sorry asses into violent war to accomplish. But it would require a much higher grade of analysis than we now pursue.

For example, good intelligence and analysis would have perceived the emergence of a psychotic charismatic leader in the early stages of Laden's conversion from playboy to guru, and the ramification woudl have been well enough understood that we could have acted to divert the path to power before he made any advance on it. Unfortunately this kind of foresight requires very high-class management skill, not a qualification of our governments generally.

A

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23 Oct 01 - 01:08 PM (#578149)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST, I, hurricane

>>>I am suggesting that we all tend to carry prejudices that we are unaware of. In unstable or more violent personalities that can quickly contribute to becoming a thug, that's for sure...or it can contribute to becoming a "freedom fighter" or whatever else one could call it. <<<

This is a good point and it seems to me is a necessary distinction to prevent discussions from getting heated for no good purpose. Someone anonymously asked above: "Why is it that anyone (myself included) that suggests addressing causes rather than symptoms feel the necessity to make explicit their horror at the slaughter in New York? Can this not be taken as read in view of our common humanity?"

In other words, where is the common humanity, where is the inhumanity and ethically unjustifiable, and where are the cultural differences. (We get into further trouble because the cultural differences may not be ethically justifiable.)

Mr. Anonymous doesn't recognize, because of his basic goodheartedness, that the common humanity has elements which literally approve of the WTC massacre.

I admitted in another thread that if I were born poor in Northern Pakistan, I would likely be a member of that aforementioned category. There is not an inherent, natural evil that would have made me that way. Circumstances would have caused me to go down a wrong moral path.

If I enjoy material excess because it is what I was raised on, despite actual knowledge or through laziness in failing to understand, that some of that material excess is made possible by geopgraphically or socially distant injustices, I have also gone down a wrong moral path.

But it's not ""I'm okay, You're okay." Osama bin Laden is morally more corrupt than I. So are his lieutenants. AND (here's where you and I may disagree): so is the poor Pakistani boy is willing to give his life for a "cause."

That poor misguided youth is willing to give his life for a cause, where I (probably) am not. On it's surface, he may seem to have a claim to moral superiority on that basis. But he does not. His position is morally inferior because he wishes to have me or mine (a) lose their lives, and/or(b) live in fear. I do not wish such deprivations directly upon him. My mental laziness may contribute (in large or very small part) to his material deprivation and discomfort.

The poor misguided youth may not be mentally lazy, but his moral wrongs in celebrating the misery of the relatives and orphans of the six thousand dead are worse than my failings in lazily accepting that my material comforts are due in abstract part to his material discomfort. His ignorance is more extensive than mine, even though I would be equally ignorant if raised in his environment.

In an imperfect world, prioritizing is required. The arguments we have here between those that ask us to see the more abstract portions of our ignorance are in large part engendered by the lesser developed of us sensing that you are failing to acknowledge the need to prioritize.

First, let's stop the direct mass murder. Then, let's lessen the ability to cause fear of personal harm. Then, let's enlighten ourselves about more dispersed injustices.

bin Laden is real and he is causing mass deaths and fear. Even if he is a creature formed by his environment, even if there are cultural idiosyncracies which explain his behavior, these have little influence upon or relevance to job one. Call him a freedom fighter for all I care. The name is irrelevant to immediate priorities.

Dan

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23 Oct 01 - 01:19 PM (#578157)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: DougR

Larry: I think it's interesting that you, and others who share your POV, when replying to a question such as the one posed by "Spot" regarding WW2, always find a way to blame the United States for the problem. One might think the USofA is the enemy! Is that your position?

Amos posed a question to you earlier that I don't believe you addressed. Could you address it? His question: "What do you think the Administration should do about the current situation? (paraphrasing)

DougR

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23 Oct 01 - 01:24 PM (#578161)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU

Dan, Thanks for w wonderful, thoughtful post. I agree that the young fellow you describe is not moraly justified in doing what he does, but on a practical note, we must find a way to not create an environment which creates such people. I don't think Bin Ladin is pshcyotic, rather I think he and his killers are sociopathic. There is a huge important difference, he does not hear voices in his head likely which can be cured by anti-whatever drugs. Rather he hears crying in the night. In fact, many who follow him don't realize that alot of the crying in the night, is caused by their side as well! But, there we are, we have to do something to aliveate suffering if we wish to be safe, consider it a tax. We tax to take care of the poor, so that they don't get the plague and spread it to us... (well, I am poor so I feel funny writing that last sentence!!!) But, in a practical sense, we share because what goes around comes around, even back in Hillel's day he saw that, "do nothing to another that is aphorant to yourself, that is the Torah and the rest is comentary". If in fact we lived to a small degree that way, spread love as fast as we spread sit-coms and McDonalds, we would sleep safe in our beds.
Cheers Larry

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23 Oct 01 - 01:37 PM (#578171)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk

My, what a discussion! One observation here: You are either willing to see yourself in another human being...or you are not. If you are not, then you can easily justify killing him, torturing him, executing him, and making war upon him.

Osama probably thinks Bush is "a piece of crap" too, while seeing himself as a noble freedom fighter and a dedicated servant of God. That's typical human tunnel vision, the failure to see oneself in the other human being, and it leads to all sorts of tragedy and disaster.

Spot - Going to war against Hitler and Hirohito in 1939-45 was absolutely inevitable. It was a quite different situation in a number of respects from what faces us now. When a large, well-armed major power launches its armies and air forces across borders and sends navies to attack other navies, war is inevitable. What we are dealing with now is a far more diffuse and indefinite situation than that, with far murkier objectives. It is an attack on outward symptoms that is going forward, rather than an attempt to heal the basic illness...kind of like the "War on Drugs", a flawed and misleading campaign if ever there was one, doomed to failure from the start, because it was an attack on symptoms, not on original causes.

- LH

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23 Oct 01 - 02:03 PM (#578194)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk

And, Dan...that was a great post! I would definitely rather deal with a spoiled North American than with the young Pakistani lad who is willing to become a martyr for his cause by killing himself and a whole bunch of people he's never met.

A higher standard of living in the 3rd world would soon do more to eliminate that kind of ignorant response than would any number of military campaigns. Experience has shown that when people achieve a reasonably secure level of material life, they are far less likely to resort to crime, drug use, and violence, and they are far more likely to practice effective birth control as well...thus easing the whole situation for all concerned.

We could move in that direction by paying workers in the 3rd World what they are really worth, instead of using them as virtual slave labour...but we'd have to give up some of our accustomed luxuries to do it.

I've been giving up some of mine regardless. Times are tougher than they used to be.

- LH

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23 Oct 01 - 02:04 PM (#578196)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: DougR

So, L.H., Bin Laden sending his "troops" to kill over five thousand innocent people does not, in your mind, qualify as motivation for the U. S. to declare war! At least the Japanese targeted military targets!

I don't believe that you and many others have yet shifted your thinking from one kind of war to another. As so many others have said, we are engaged in a war much different from the ones we have been involved in before. The terrorist acts should only be answered in one way: war!

DougR

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23 Oct 01 - 02:24 PM (#578220)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Whistle Stop

Dan, I agree with your post, and I appreciate the clarity with which you expressed yourself. I believe there are a lot of us on the Mudcat who approve of the current efforts to destroy bin Laden, al Qaeda and the Taliban, even as we recognize that we should question our own role with respect to trouble spots and less fortunate countries around the world, and redouble our efforts to alleviate the world's suffering where it is in our power to do so.

There is an organization allied with a more-or-less established government that has specficially, and repeatedly, pledged to destroy the US, and that has recently shown itself to have the willingness and capability to bring mass death and destruction to the US. They declared war against us, in a most unambiguous fashion, and we are responding as we must. One need does not negate the other -- we need to stop bin Laden and his partners in crime, AND we need to search for better ways to help foster justice and equality in the world. But if we don't do the former, we won't have the opportunity to do the latter.

Larry, in response to your statement ("One observation here: You are either willing to see yourself in another human being...or you are not. If you are not, then you can easily justify killing him, torturing him, executing him, and making war upon him."), I CAN see myself in other human beings, even those like bin Laden and his cohorts who have committed unspeakable acts against my country. I can see myself in the soldiers of Nazi Germany, Imperial Japan, and other countries present and past; I'm not proud of it, but I recognize that we share a common humanity and that, in other circumstances, I might be driven to do what they are doing. And yet, I can easily justify going to war against them, and doing all the horrible things necessary to try to win. I believe that they are wrong and I am right in this struggle, and I believe that their stated intention and demonstrated capability) to kill me and my countrymen is all the justification I need. Going to war does not prevent me from thinking about root causes, and thinking about root causes does not prevent me from going to war. We do what we must, and we try to create a better world once the shooting stops.

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23 Oct 01 - 03:14 PM (#578255)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk

Whistle Stop - That was my post, not Larry's. As far as what you say, yep, I understand your point which was well-expressed.

Doug - Hey, I'm STILL not sure just what I would do if I were in George Bush's shoes right now. It's a hell of a messy situation, and if I come up with a neat and perfect answer for exactly how to deal with it, I'll let you know, but don't hold your breath waiting...

I think I would be more likely to use covert means of response to terrorists than conventional military action on small countries...and I think I would move heaven and earth to resolve chronic problems between Israel and the Arabs/Palestinians/etc in the meantime...so as to lessen the possibility of further crises.

But, hell, what do I know? Am I fully informed on all the factors involved? No. Are you? No. It's just that your gut tells you to strike back...and mine tells me that further violence probably won't help, because it certainly hasn't in the past.

I think it's a difference in basic emotional temperament, not a difference in moral concepts of right and wrong that is dividing us. (We all agree it's wrong to kill innocent civilians.) Or it's a difference in spiritual concepts on some level of what each of us terms "reality".

We run around like dogs chasing their own tails when we have these discussions, because we're really not focusing on the same things. The intentions get lost in the words, and the words get misunderstood.

- LH

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23 Oct 01 - 03:28 PM (#578263)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Greg F.

Only one small problem, gang- we have so far not scored one bloody thing whatsoever against Bin Laden and his organization and "international terrorism" in this so-called "war"! We've bombed the shit out of the Taliban, Afghan cities and Afghan civilians, though. That's hardly the same thing.

Greg

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23 Oct 01 - 03:40 PM (#578269)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST

In other words, Greg, the strategy has not yet achieved the policy goals. And therefore you could be implying many things. That the policy was wrong? That the policy goals should be changed? That the strategy was wrong? That the strategy should be changed?

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23 Oct 01 - 03:47 PM (#578274)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk

Bin Laden's strategy has not yet achieved his policy goals either (and is not bloody likely to). It's an occupational hazard with this sort of thing...

What we need is some more enlightened policy goals, I think.

- LH

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23 Oct 01 - 04:00 PM (#578280)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST,Frank

This thread is complex. A lot of talk about bin Laden but not about the brains of the outfit, Zawahiri.

We are not approaching the situation in a new way. We are resorting to old tactics. Bombing Afghanistan may appease the anger of some.

Here's what I think needs to be done. We need an International Police Force hopefully through the UN. We need to apply the rule of international law to this situation and try the guilty parties at the Hague.

How do we protect ourselves in the meantime? Strenghten the resolve of other countries to join us in routing the criminals. The Muslim community must speak out more firmly on this issue and denounce the radicalized fundamentalists and not let the issue of Israel stop them.

We need to look at who we support as allies. Wahhabism is rampant in one of our chief allies, Saudi Arabia and the seeds for this radicalization is planted there and financed by rich sheiks.

We need to stop our dependence on oil. Alternative energy sources should be a high priority for our government.

War is not inherent in our social makeup. We resort to it out of impotence and not because it really accomplishes very much. We are embarking on a road toward WW III. Is this why we fought WW II?

One of the big problems is anger. Hot-headedness keeps our country from seeing alternative solutions. They are there but we're so used to thinking in a box. War is seen as the easiest solution. But is it really the most effective?

There is no reality in the theory that war is inherent in the human social condition. Was slavery inherent? Hasn't most of the world to some extent evolved from that recourse?

No, we are a social species because war is not inherent in our makeup. This is why we have survived, because there is the kind of intelligence out there that knows that war doesn't ultimately work for survival. Societies that practice it for any length of time do not survive.

A measured response is what's needed, not simplistic low-context, hot headed responses espousing "patriotism" and simple-minded "good guys and bad guys". The story of the Samurai warrior who will not brandish his weapon unless he is free from anger has some relevance here.

A high-context attitude in which all parts of the puzzle are considered, such as our involvement in what has happened to us and how we can keep it from happening again is in order. Inasmuch as Bush seeks the world community for support, this is good, but as we act unilaterally, we are not being responsible.

How do you neutralize the negative force of those who would destroy us? First, by not becoming like them.

Second, to appeal to the highest principles of people rather than the lowest "let's nuke 'em" attitude.

Third, to listen to what's being said and rather than reacting angrilly and out-of-control, give it weight and consideration.

Fourth, forget all of the generalizations that are made in this situation about what action we take. They will not work any more. This is uncharted waters. We need help and consultation from the whole world and it's in their best interest to help us lest the next goal of these fanatics would be the destruction of the Eiffel Tower, the Hermitage, The great wall of China, Tel Aviv, American embassies in every country of the world, the Parliament in London, and even Mecca itself. (Muslims ought to be very worried about this.)

I believe that there is a kind of insanity that doesn't hear voices or hallucinate. It's the kind that believes that the destruction of this world is rewarded in a paradise. A worldwide mental health is in order. Lets not become crazy ourselves.

Frank

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23 Oct 01 - 04:33 PM (#578293)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU

Hi Folks... had to take a wee break for a REALLY GOOD rehersal... reorganising Sorcha Dorcha (booying goes the plug o matic.. ) and while I was away, I see lots of good thoughtfulness still going on! I notice that one post happened while I was posting another, so I missed it. It concerned me blaming the US for WWII. Well, in some way most of the large industrial nations were to a great deal involved in setting the historical environment which led to that war. Even the most conservative hsitorian will admit that the early part of that century saw American agression in the Pasific leading to Japanese counter agression in the middle of the century. Where Wilson desperately wanted to create political systems to cure the jugernaut aspect of world wars, France insisted on punishing Germany, which gave rise to the support for Nazism, in much the same way as middle eastern politics of everything or nothing empower Bin Ladin. So, did the US plan to have Japan invade China, or bomb Hawaii? Did the US plan to empower Germany to build death camps? Of course not, but had the rest of the world demanded humanity as the core of our governmental policies, my cousins, many of your fathers, uncles aunts mothers, would not have died wretched horrible deaths.
Let's start being the brave generation which tries something new, meeting hate and horror and inhumanity with love and peace and understanding. Lets try it once, the other way hasn't worked yet. All our religions demand it of us, but we never seem to try it...
Cheers Larry

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23 Oct 01 - 06:49 PM (#578337)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: CarolC

I'm jumping in a little bit late here, and I haven't had a chance to read some of the posts here yet. But this is something I feel I want to say now.

I would also have to add that the 5 to 6 thousand people who got wiped from life last month were mostly just trying to do what good they could, build some sort of future, and get along and get ahead -- in short, to pursue happiness. Their right to do so got violently curtailed by an act of war.

I would also have to add that the (thousands? millions?) of people whose cultures were disrupted and sometimes destroyed, many of whom died from despair as a result, were mostly just trying to do what they could to maintain they're accustomed lifestyle and continue their way of life, -- in short, to pursue happiness. Their right to do so got violently curtailed by acts of capitalism.

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23 Oct 01 - 07:42 PM (#578371)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: ddw

Larry, Amos, LH, et al....

Sorry I can't stay in this debate in a more timely fashion, but I'm only online at work and have to do a catch as catch can. I also have limited reading time, so forgive me if I cover ground that's been covered before and I just missed.

As I said earlier, would that you were right. But I just can't see it.

First, I think the only absolute baseline of human nature is that we're social animals — we can't even survive infancy without some form of society, even if it's just core family.

Now, if we live in a society, we have to assume there will be different personalities involved. Some will want to lead, some will want to follow, some want to be left alone. Some will work hard for the common good, others for their own good and some won't work at all — preferring to use superior physical prowess to take the necessities from weaker members.

So somebody says, "Hey, we need laws to keep this from happening." So they make laws saying you can't take somebody else's lunch, because if you do society will take two lunches from you.

There will always be somebody who thinks the rules don't apply to him because he's too smart or too strong for anybody to stop. He'll go right on, until something more drastic than taking his lunches is required.

You can try convincing him that he would be happier if he'd stop the thefts/robberies and play by the rules; you can even offer to educate him and give him better housing and all kinds of other things.

But there will always be at least one who won't conform.

So you can lock him up, you can throw him out of the group, or you can kill him.

If you lock him up, it had better be for a long time — maybe the rest of his life — because he'll be absolutely convinced that you're just persecuting him and he'll need to get even when he gets out.

If you throw him out of the group, you have to set up some kind of perimeter defence, because he'll just come back to raid your fridges if you don't. And if he acquires a gun, you're really in deep shit. You either arm yourself, or you're at his mercy.

Now you could kill him and the whole problem would go away — for a while.

But there would always be someone who would want to take his place, who would be convinced he failed because he was too weak or too stupid or not ruthless enough.

You've got the same list of possibilities, only now you're dealing with an even nastier adversary.

You can reason with these people all you like, but I think in the long run the better solution is to kill them, one by one as they arise, until they all get the idea that operating outside the society is not going to be profitable or good for their health and longevity.

I don't advocate shoving my lifestyle or god or political system or whatever down anyone's throat, but I see no reason to sit idly by and let someone else shove his down mine. I'll resist, with whatever force is necessary.

LH,

I'm familiar with the eastern concept of the Great One and the spiritual planes to achieve it. It seems to me to offer no plan for getting there, only a penchant for defining problems out of existance — sort of "if I don't recognize it's a problem, then it will cease to be a problem."

Seems to me pretty fundamentally flawed, if we're talking about tangible existance. I can ignore the bus, but it'll still knock me on my ass.

As for the "duality" of love and hate — you missed my point. I don't think it's a duality, it's two sides of the same thing — absolutely inseparable by definition. You can't have love without hate and vice versa.

Just curious, have you read Noam Chomski or any of the other general semanticists? Always made a lot more sense to me than Atristotilean logic.

cheers,

david

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23 Oct 01 - 07:55 PM (#578384)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST

david, you are a breath of fresh air in an otherwise stangnant mindless barrage of twaddle. Live long and prosper.

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23 Oct 01 - 08:08 PM (#578399)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: ddw

Geez, guest! It's so seldom anybody agrees with me, I'd love to know who you are. If it's politically inexpedient, fire a PM.

david

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23 Oct 01 - 08:33 PM (#578410)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: kendall

Doug, my friend..."The only answer is war"??

NO NO a thousand times no. War has NEVER been the answer! War is the ultimate failure! Whether you agree or not, our chickens are coming home to roost.

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23 Oct 01 - 08:41 PM (#578412)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU

Hi David: I am rather found of Chompsky myself. Let me point to a potential flaw in your other wise excellent reasoning (and I mean that in all serriousness, you pose an excellent analisis). The flaw is this, if it were the simple equation you pose than the crime rate would be somewhat constant tied only to the number of people in any society, however crime is affected by a large number of varriables, most tied to alianation and other modes of limits on equality. So, if crime and alianisation is not simply a numeric constant and can be affected by giving a sence of fairness (and sence of fairness is more important than actual fairness as one sees in immagrant populations...) than we can do more by creating some sence of equality than we can through the inflicting of death and terror. So, I think...
Cheers
Larry

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23 Oct 01 - 08:51 PM (#578418)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: ddw

kendall,

What's your solution? Turn the other cheek? Would that be the crowd at the world series cheek, or the GM headquarters in Detroit cheek?

Acquiesce to the Taliban/al-Qaida/Islamic Jihad/etc.? I'll bet your wife/daughters/sisters would be really happy to don the veils and never go out, but I don't think mine would. And, if bin Laden is to be believed, only death will exponge the insult to Allah of having infidels on sacred Islamic soil.

War may be a failure of niceties and it is never THE solution, but it can certainly be A solution for a particular problem at a particular time. When someone has told you that the only solution to his problem is to kill you and he's demonstrated his willingness and ability to do it, I don't think that leaves much room for options.

But if you really doubt my way will work, let's run a test. You and Larry and Amos and LH round up 100 Quakers (or anybody else who wants to TALK bin Laden out of his madness) and I'll take 100 special forces troops. We'll land them all in Afghanistan, and see who does more to end the threat.....

BTW — somebody above (Amos, I think) made the argument that just because history is laced with wars doesn't mean it's natural. Are you seriously arguing that peace (which, as far as I can tell, is not a whole lot more common than war) is?

If we define "natural" as what will happen in the absence of humanly-imposed laws, institutions, etc., I think the evidence will point to war being just as natrual as peace. The question isn't whether it's natural, it whether it's desireable.

There are times for both.

cheers,

david

---

23 Oct 01 - 09:04 PM (#578426)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk

ddw - Good comments as usual. I appreciate the thought you put into your responses.

Regarding the Eastern concept of the One...the vast majority of those traditions involve at some level a denial of worldly existence, and a desire to escape from it. In that respect they err...or they avoid responsibility. That's not what I'm suggesting. I am suggesting fully realizing the One in an effective practical way, here and now, in physical reality, not escaping into Samadhi or some form of Nirvana.

To apply the teachings I am studying in the world would involve treating all people everywhere in an equal fashion, which hasn't actually been tried yet by most people, although some progress has been made toward that ideal in democratic societies...it's just got a long way to go yet.

And there is a definite plan and series of steps for getting there, but most people are far too lazy and undisciplined to bother going through even the preliminaries, if they even know about them. I know about them, and I've proven too lazy and undisciplined so far myself. I'm about 2% of the way down the path to Self-realization at this point, I figure. I've met one individual who I know has made it there, and I've never met anyone else like him in my whole life. That shows me it can be done.

It's like the diametrical opposite of "ignoring the bus"...it's more like being totally tuned into everything that's going on, and acting in the most effective and harmonious way possible under every circumstance...with absolute love, confidence, and effectiveness.

If you're looking for airy-fairy world-denial type of stuff to criticize...well, it's out there all right, but that's not what I was talking about.

If I thought I could deny the hardships of the tangible world and get away with it, I probably would go for it at this point, but I know it just ain't that easy.

- LH

---

23 Oct 01 - 09:08 PM (#578428)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU

Well David... If history is any test, if you land only one hundred rangers, in that place, likely if they stayed for long enough, none would come home. On the other hand, history shows that one hundred Quakers have a chance of staying talking and leaving, not that there have not been Quaker martyrs, there have, but it is a fact recognised by a number of religious historians that we happy few have had an effect much greater than our few numbers whould otherwise be expected to be able show. Not to sound like a Californian, the power of love is always, always greater than the power of hate. You can only kill a Nazi, with love you can turn a Nazi into an angle. It happens, a Rabbi who was being daily threatened by the head of his local KKK, here in the states, each time would say, why do you hate me so much when I love you. It must be so painful to carry such hate. Not only did the fellow leave the Klan, he converted, became Jewish. Never underestimate the power of real love, not just placating an enamy but really loving that enamy. There is no power on earth greater. And in the end, it is so very painful to carry hate in your heart. You don't forgive someone for their benifit, you forgive them for the good of your won heart, until you have forgiven the unforgivable you can't understand. I have. I forgave two lawyers who destroyed my reputation and ended my career for greed and malice. I forgave them and MY pain ended. It changed them as well, I think. One has since died, but I think before she did, the love I showed her, I think was transformative. We have to put off our pain and hope that those who hate us can put their pain off, and we must help them to put that pain off, if we don't we need a bigger lock on our door, it is as simple as that.
Cheers, Dave,
Larry

---

23 Oct 01 - 09:11 PM (#578433)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Ebbie

Now you could kill him and the whole problem would go away — for a while.

"But there would always be someone who would want to take his place, who would be convinced he failed because he was too weak or too stupid or not ruthless enough.

You've got the same list of possibilities, only now you're dealing with an even nastier adversary.(Bold:Ebbie)

You can reason with these people all you like, but I think in the long run the better solution is to kill them, one by one as they arise, until they all get the idea that operating outside the society is not going to be profitable or good for their health and longevity.ddw

David, how does one keep on killing each progressively nastier one? And what kind of world do we end with?

Ebbie

---

23 Oct 01 - 09:43 PM (#578459)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: DougR

Kendall, my friend, I was going to reply to your post, but ddw presented the case much more effectively than I could.

DougR

---

23 Oct 01 - 10:48 PM (#578485)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: kendall

Have any of you war mongers ever studied history? The Russians were in Afghanistan for 10 years. They killed over a million people, for what? what did they acomplish? Not a God damn thing! In the end, they went home with their tails between their legs just as every invader from Alexander the Great, to The British to the Russians have done. Now, what makes you think we will do any better? Have you forgotten Viet Nam already? Do you really think we will maintain our resolve in this thing? We sure as hell didn't in Nam. What would I do you ask? I said in another thread what I would do. Granted, I dont have all the info needed to make an intelligent decision, but, the last thing I would do is put ground troops in there. We should be doing everything we can to turn the rest of the Muslim world against the Taliban. Dropping bombs on them will only piss off the rest of the Muslims.

---

23 Oct 01 - 10:54 PM (#578487)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: ddw

Ebbie,

One in which you could go to work in the World Trade Center and not have to worry nearly as much about some lunatic crashing a planeful of jet fuel into it.

Mine's not the perfect solution, but it's one which — in the long run — will kill fewer innocents than not acting.

Larry,

I wasn't talking about the rangers — those are the kids who just want to be special forces troopers. I'm pretty tight with two SF types (a niece's husband and my daughter's boyfriend) and, believe me, they're scarier than most people know. They just don't tell anybody about it. Were you aware that there was contingent of them on the ground in Afghanistan less than 48 hours after the WTC?

As for history favoring the Afghanis.... True, they kicked out the British and the Soviets, but both those countries went in there to wage conventional warfare. They had no troops trained in fighting in that terrain or equipment that could do the job. The Soviets went in there with tanks, which couldn't maneuver in the mountains and were eaten up by the sand.

The troops the U.S. is going to send in there won't have such encumberances. They will be fast, light and very mobile and they will operate mostly at night. The Rangers will follow when things are softened up for them.

The Afghanis are also not used to troops trained to operate in their high altitudes. Ever hear of the 10th Mountain Rangers? They train at high altitude and are used to breathing rarified air, just like the Afghanis are. Makes a big difference.

Your story about the rabbi and the Nazi is interesting, but a logician like yourself should know you can't argue from the specific to the general. One incident says nothing about mankind's experience; it only illuminates one incident, period.

And, finally, since bin Laden, et al have made this a holy war, I wouldn't bet on infidel Quakers surviving any better in their lair than some of the deadliest killers on the planet. If I had to go in with one group or the other, it sure as hell wouldn't be the Quakers.

cheers,

david

---

23 Oct 01 - 11:12 PM (#578495)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST, I, hurricane

kendall: is your point that you are afraid? We are all afraid.

That's a little disingenuous of you to try and trick other Muslim nations to do your violence for you, don't you think?

Three differences from the Soviet experience: we have technology they didn't have; we have soldiers with moral conviction, and we have a discrete mission.

---

23 Oct 01 - 11:21 PM (#578498)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST

. . . and, for a fourth, we're not going to kill a million people.

---

23 Oct 01 - 11:36 PM (#578502)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: ddw

sorry bout the boldface — typo in the HTML coding....david

---

23 Oct 01 - 11:56 PM (#578514)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk

And I also forgot to close the friggin' italics. Groan.

- LH

---

24 Oct 01 - 12:22 AM (#578520)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: ddw

It's the content, LH, it's the content. HTML be damned!

I read that article and it seemed pretty bang on to me. But I consider the question of bin Laden, et al completely separate from the arguments that would go on about the economics of oil and the ecological questions of whether we should be using fossil fuels or not.

I know you can't actually argue by analogy, but sometimes it's useful for illustration.

If you consider the world and all its peoples to be a single living organism, what we're seeing now is a growth of cancer. Like all cancers, if left unattended it will consume the whole organism or change it into something so grotesque as to be unrecognizable. Why not cut it out, surgically, before you have to lop off whole limbs to stop it?

If the U.S. went in with all it's might and killed everything in their path, I'd get pretty upset and oppose it as vigorously as I opposed the Vietnam war, but that's not what I see happening. I was absolutely amazed at the restraint shown and the limited actions taken. If they don't work at first, I expect them to continue, but I don't expect them to escalate to blanket bombing. That would piss off a lot of Muslims and would be counterproductive.

cheers,

david

---

24 Oct 01 - 01:09 AM (#578538)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk

ddw - You're dead right with the cancer analogy, but I see a whole bunch of cancers. One set of cancers is the various terrorist groups who use indiscriminate violence to pursue their goals...and there are many such groups.

Another cancer is the multinational oil companies, who have enormous influence on international politics and whose influence has led to a whole series of horrific wars in the last hundred years approx. They have also worked behind the scenes to keep us all dependent on oil when the whole world could have developed non-polluting sources of power decades ago. They intend to keep us dependent until the oil is exhausted, and the atmosphere is possibly ruined for generations...all to make more money. That is truly criminal behaviour.

Another cancer is the general pursuit of profits without regard to environment or human health or sanity...this is endemic in the whole free enterprise system, and in the so-called Communist states as well (meaning now primarily: mainland China).

The tobacco industry is another cancer...directly causing real cancer in millions of people. So is the alcohol industry, truth be told, but I'm not suggesting reinstituting prohibition...it didn't work then and won't now.

I think you are right that the USA is in for the long haul, and the American public will back it...because of the WTC attack, and that is precisely what worries me the most. It means utter disaster for the Afghans, and possibly for Iraquis, Iranians, and numerous others as well.

I frankly do not believe this war is being fought to end terrorism, although I may be wrong. I believe it's being fought to clean up a whole bunch of "problems" (from the American point of view), meaning it's being fought for major financial, commercial, and geo-political reasons which will affect a great many countries all over the world.

There is great danger in that. Greater danger than that posed by the terrorists themselves, ultimately.

Like I say, though, I may be wrong. But that's my gut feeling. I think this thing has been a long time in the works (since Desert Storm, possibly), but it needed a major provocation...an outrageous act...before it could be done. Some terrorist outfit has provided that provocation. Maybe Bin Laden, maybe not. In the end, it won't really matter who it was to the millions who may die as this lengthy war is fought.

It would be a darn good thing if I was wrong about this, so let's hope I am. Seriously. If I'm not there is a worse time ahead than we have seen before, ever.

- LH

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24 Oct 01 - 01:49 AM (#578550)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST,jeffy

Oh for Christ's sake you pedantic pseudo-intellectuals... GET OVER YOURSELVES!

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24 Oct 01 - 02:08 AM (#578555)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk

Fuckin' "A", Jeffy!!! Let's all go out and have a burger and a brewski and give those overworked brain cells a rest! Who the fuck cares anyway?

Yo!

- LH

---

24 Oct 01 - 03:58 AM (#578577)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST

Any of y'all know about Discordianism? The religion of worshippers of the goddess Eris? It has been described as either a religion disguised as a joke, or a joke disguised as a religion; can't tell which. There's a Discordian parable which seems to the point here:

One day Malaclypse the Younger asked the messenger spirit St. Gulik to approach the Goddess and request her presence for some desperate advice. Shortly afterwords the radio came on by itself, and an ethereal female voice said "Yes?"
"O Eris! Blessed Mother of Man! Queen of Chaos! Daughter of Discord! Concubine of Confusion! O! Exquisite Lady, I beseech You to lift a heavy burden from my heart!"
"What bothers you Mal? You don't sound well."
"I am filled with fear and tormented with terrible visions of pain. Everywhere people are hurting one another, the planet is rampant with injustices, whole societies plunder groups of their own people, mothers imprison sons, children perish while brothers war. O, woe."
"What's the matter with that, if it's what you want?"
"But nobody wants it! Everybody hates it."
"Oh. Well, then stop."
At which moment She turned herself into an aspirin commercial and left the Polyfather stranded alone with his species.

clint keller

---

24 Oct 01 - 05:23 AM (#578597)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU

Jeeze Little Hawk! You been up all night!!! I'm up early, and here you all are still at it! Well, where to start. One reason we Quakers have the ability often to go where others can't is that we stopped going places to convert folks. We used to do that, in George Fox's day and for a while after, and we used to get killed pretty regularly. I think one of the changes came with Elias Hicks ( I know all you Wilberites are saying spoken like a true Hicksite! ) But, by establishing what became a universalist tradition, we learned to listen and help. No you can't go from the individual instance to the general, but there comes a point when the examples of individual actions can change the world.
As to those who believe our army is badder and more committed than the Russians, well, historicaly more wars dragged on or were lost by over comfidence than any other thing. The English found that out when they lost an entire expeditionary force armed with Martini rifles to Zulus armed with asagis.
The fact is even should we be able to bring Afganistan to its knees, the terrorists we are facing have recrutes from the Philipeans to France. What terror can you bring to make someone who is going to strap a bomb onto his own body and blow you up with him think twice? There is no sence to that arguement. We have to address what it is that makes such people, and in fact, it is unlikely religion alone. It is a deep sence of unfairness.
Cheers all, Good morning. Larry

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24 Oct 01 - 05:42 AM (#578599)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU

Hi Guys: Maybe because it is five in the morning, I just had an immage of us, when we were in first grade, in the school yard, saying, "Yeah, well of course Superman could beat up Batman, cause Batman doen't have Kriptonite..." "Oh YEAH!? Well Batman could tangle him up in his web!" "But Supeman could break it, like I said, Batman's web isn't Kriptonite! So THERE!" "Yeah, but GOD could beat up Superman!" "But that is STUPID! Cause God WOLDn't WANT to beat him up!" "OH YEAH! Well what if he did!!!" No offence all, but I think we are still at it from when we were little, and as with war, we have to change the script!
All the best,
a bit from a tired mind...
Cheers Larry

---

24 Oct 01 - 08:21 AM (#578627)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST,Greg F.

. . . and, for a fourth, we're not going to kill a million people.

OK, Guest Chickenshit, say we only kill three-quarters of a million. That justifies our bombing the shit out of the country and makes us "better" than the Russians?

Jesus wept.

Greg

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24 Oct 01 - 09:47 AM (#578668)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST, I, hurricane (Chickens*)

Nothing will make "us" better than the Russians. We will always be the same as the Russians. We will always be the same as the people who inhabit Afghanistan. People will always kill people. People will always struggle unless and until we inhabit a different world. Jesus knew all these things. Jesus does not hate me with the ferocity you display in temporary anger.

I hope for peace, prosperity and freedom to strive for spiritual contentment for the inhabitants of Afghanistan. I hope the U.S., the U.K., the Saudis and the Iranians and the U.N. work fast and furiously to build irrigation, roads, power supplies and hospitals to service our suffering brethren there. I hope that three quarters of a million do not die violently in those lands as you predict. I know that al Qaeda does not work efficiently for those things. I hope the international community makes better progress in allowing the inhabitants of Afghanistan to realize their aspirations than I expect the Taliban status quo would achieve.

This is a tiny interent backwater where people are expresing their frustrations. If reading this increases your frustration and anger, rather than giving you positive thoughts and aspirations, I suggest, without rancor or crudity, that you channel your energies into different and more rewarding pathways. There are very few sociopaths, and none writing to this forum, who are enjoying the pain of these events.

---

24 Oct 01 - 10:13 AM (#578681)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST

Go! Stalk the red deer o'er the heather. Ride! Follow the fox if you can. But for pleasure and profit together Allow me the hunting of man.

Kipling

OBL is the head of one Cobra... we will kill him and scatter his ashes in pig manure. Then after that chop up the tail of the Cobra.. Then destroy the nest of the Cobra. After that with the help of the rest of the world, eradicate the other violent Cobra assholes, who think that they can change the world by murder and mayhem... Simple enough? Or you could just sit down and pontificate, and discuss peace while your people are being murdered.

---

24 Oct 01 - 10:22 AM (#578690)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST, I, hurricane

That's a good summation anonymous. Left. Right. Forward. Backwards. Stay put. SNAFU.

---

24 Oct 01 - 10:27 AM (#578693)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST,Frank

David, those who cry for Jihad can't lose because they are all going to paradise.

You misunderstand the role of non-violent resistance. It is a highly proactive style of dealing with supposed enemies. You have just as much chance coming back in a body bag if you apply conventional military force as you would as a non-violent resister. In short, you would be about as safe with the Quakers as you would be with a military force that can't even identify their enemy.

The enemy is religious intolerance which is found everywhere. Only through education and enlightenment can we solve the problem. We can bomb from now until doomsday and it will not solve the problem. bin Laden is only a trumped-up symbol that masks the real problem. Religious fanatacism which is found in every country in the world. How about focussing on Saudi Arabia that finances our oil as well as the Taliban?

I don't agree that the Muslim community has spoken strongly enough against the Taliban, Wahhabism or other offshoots and perversions of Islam.

The history of Islam is significant. Salladin and the Mongols that built the Ottoman Empire were not destroyed by those that opposed them. They were convinced of their "righteousness". Blind religious convictions devoid of humanity and spirituality are the weapons of ultimate destruction. This is a religious war whether the Bush Adminstration wants to acknowledge it or not.

Education, enlightenment, providing for those who need to be shown alternatives to their entrenchment is the only answer. A military solution is a bandaid on the cancer.

Frank

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24 Oct 01 - 10:30 AM (#578696)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: SharonA

Larry says (among other things): "We have to address what it is that makes such people [terrorists], and in fact, it is unlikely religion alone. It is a deep sence of unfairness."

So lemme get this straight. To refer back to the spoiled-rich-kid analogy you used yesterday, Larry, we "shared our toys" with the Afghans (Afghanis?) so they could defend themselves against the Soviet Union, and they're now punching us in the face anyway because we ALSO "share our toys" with a nation of people they hate. Tell me again who's not being fair here.

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24 Oct 01 - 10:38 AM (#578703)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST,kendall

Afraid? in what way? If you could gather every one of those bastards in a group I would be the first to push the button. However, it aint going to be that way. Fighting these pigs is going to be like herding cats. Jeffy, you sound like Homer Simpson.

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24 Oct 01 - 10:52 AM (#578710)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU

Ah Gargoyle!
You may have noticed that I avoided the hit Garg with a brick party, because I knew one day you would blossom. And Oh what a bloom! Great post old boy, I really had a well needed and long delayed chuckle.
Sharon, we both look at the same things and come up with different lessons, don't we? I see us giving guns to everyone around the world as being part of the problem. We actually give away surplus and old military equiptment from small arms to amunition, and do so with less than great care about to whom it goes, so we take raw materials and cheep labour out and pour in guns and wonder why terrible things happen? No, I did not think it a good idea to give guns to oppose Russia. Kind of got us into this mess in the first place, we armed and trained Bin Ladin.
Cheers, Larry

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24 Oct 01 - 11:00 AM (#578718)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST,Greg F.

I suggest... that you channel your energies into different and more rewarding pathways.

Well, thanks, Chicken*. And I respectfully suggest that you self-fornicate, you patronising, supercilious little shit.

Best, Greg

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24 Oct 01 - 11:09 AM (#578724)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST,GUEST, tonic_wonder

BTW, enjoyed the 'Discordian' note above. Reminded me of the Cult of the Subgenius, Praise Bob.

I think 'wish' for war is a bit strong. Sounds like this thread was initiated with a built-in bias. Considering the lay-up for this piece of dirty work, the first WTC bombing, the Khobar Towers, The USS Cole, I think it is pretty obvious we're up against people who don't put much stock in talk.

Remember the saying "Mankind can live in peace and toleration once all other avenues have been exhausted"

It is real easy and only occasionally worthy of merit to proclaim against the futility of war, but war can settle things by killing off the proponents of one side, in this case a pretty nasty bunch of proponents who not only live in hate, but define themselves in hate, and teach hate to their children and everyone who they can reach via word, broadcast, and technology , a technology they won't take the trouble to devise, just exploit.

Time to give war a chance.

but it's not a 'wish'

It's a conclusion.

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24 Oct 01 - 11:24 AM (#578735)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: SharonA

Larry, I agree that giving guns and weapons-training to various nations of the world is part of the problem... but NOT giving them would create problems for us also (sorry; I'm not a Quaker).

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24 Oct 01 - 11:56 AM (#578766)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST,Greg F.

Yup, Larry- an oil company.
 ;>)  Greg

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24 Oct 01 - 12:46 PM (#578802)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Whistle Stop

Larry (this time I really am addressing Larry!), if you want your criticisms of our current approach to be taken seriously, at some point you will need to come up with an alternative plan that is specific, proactive, and can be implemented with some prospect of success. All this philosophical talk about the futility of war gets a little wearisome if you don't at least try to offer an alternative plan of action -- not a set of concepts or ideals, but an actual plan. I agree with some of your concerns about how war can contribute to a perpetuation of the problem; most thinking people, including our leaders, acknowledge this danger and are trying to guard against it. But what, specifically, are you suggesting that we should do to resolve the situation?

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24 Oct 01 - 12:55 PM (#578812)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk

Oh, lord, yes! Who could be more patriotic than an oil company! As for insurance companies, in a truly just and decent society they would not even exist, because the general community would help people in genuine distress and need, without charging them a cent for it...as was done in pioneer villages, for instance, and Indian camps. All for one and one for all.

Gargoyle - Great song! LOL!!! Some comic relief was sorely needed here.

- LH

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24 Oct 01 - 01:08 PM (#578821)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Don Firth

No solution, just in observation: --

A large part of America's foreign policy over the past few decades has been "Yes, we know he's a son-of-a-bitch, but he's our son-of-a-bitch!" Then, when the son-of-a-bitch turns around and bites us in the ass, we find that surprising.

Good morning, America.

Don Firth

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24 Oct 01 - 01:12 PM (#578826)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: SharonA

Larry, I'm sorry to hear about the insurance situation in NY. There's a result of the WTC attack that I'd forgotten about.

As far as bread vs. bullets goes: In a perfect world, nobody would give anybody else guns, clubs, boxcutters or karate lessons. No one would hate anyone, and we would all live in peace. But we don't live in a perfect world, and there IS greed in this world, as foolish as greediness may be. So as long as other big nations keep supplying little nations with weaponry for their own greedy purposes, I'm sure that this nation will do the same out of self-defense, which stems from the sense of self-interest that you espouse.

Yes, the US has been the aggressor sometimes; the US has also had an isolationist policy sometimes. The US has been the humanitarian sometimes. It seems that we are disliked by some people no matter what we do. And even if we change our policy, people with long memories will still want to punish us for what we once did. And greedy people will always take advantage of generosity.

It is as you say: in order to live in the peaceful world you envision, "the people of the world" must "realize the folly of war and greed." Not just one big nation, the world. Every person in the world who will ever be born. Let's face it; that will ever happen...

...but I AM impressed that most of the nations of the world are speaking out together to condemn terrorism. That's a BIG GIANT step in the right direction. Still, words of condemnation must be reinforced by action. As you say, the kid who's punching another kid in the face – for whatever reason – is the one who must be punished. The rich kid who won't share toys with the poor kid must be encouraged to do so, but can't really be punished for not wanting to be hit with his own toys by a kid who isn't interested in sharing but would rather draw blood.

It doesn't matter to the rich kid that the poor kid has been taught all his life that his problems are the fault of the rich kid's parents. The rich kid only knows that HIS problem of the moment (the bloody nose) is directly the fault of the poor kid... and he knows that it's not his OWN fault for not trusting the poor kid, since the poor kid has been threatening since kindergarten to beat the tar out of the rich kid. (So much for sharing wealth for peace.)

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24 Oct 01 - 01:26 PM (#578836)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: SharonA

Oops! Typo alert! In paragraph 4 of my last post, I meant to say (of the realization by everyone in the world of the folly of war and greed): that will never happen. Sorry, but it is part of human nature to better oneself, and that will eventually put one in a better position than another person, and jealousy and greed and competition and infighting and war will result. Yes, it would be best for everyone to resist that part of our natures in favor of the nobler aspects thereof, but eventually somebody would slip (nobody's perfect!), and the whole cycle would start again.

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24 Oct 01 - 01:35 PM (#578844)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: M.Ted

Well, this is just like a music thread--some of you know what you're talking about, and some of you only think you know what you're talking about--I'm not going to comment any farther than that--I am posting because I've read through read through the whole sordid mess, and for that, I figure I am entitled to post--

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24 Oct 01 - 01:39 PM (#578847)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST,tonic_wonder

For those rich kid/ poor kid people out there, and there's way more than indicated in this thread (incipient socialists, you know who you are!):

There are some poor kids who try not to blame anyone but work harder and build each other up.

There are some rich kids who might not know what the parents of the poor kid next door are saying to them, but try to share their milk and cookies at recess.

There are those, rich and poor alike, who believe that the situation is due to the 'Will Of God' and that trying to alter it is heresy.

There are those who look at the world with open eyes and wonder at all the programming that goes into kids.

Osama was once somebody's baby, and maybe we want a word with that somebody now, but by now Osama has kids of his own.

Time to give war a chance.

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24 Oct 01 - 01:47 PM (#578852)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk

M. Ted - Well, your eyes must be feeling quite tired by now...

- LH

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24 Oct 01 - 01:58 PM (#578861)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk

GUEST - Whaddya mean incipient socialists?!! (Damning us with faint praise!)

You say that like it's a bad thing... :-) Without socialism you wouldn't have an army, an air force, a navy or a police force...well, not unless you were rich enough to hire a private one, that is...like Al Capone.

- LH

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24 Oct 01 - 02:55 PM (#578889)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: InOBU

Well, let's see, I have on a number of posts given spesifics, for example, to disinvest from nations with numbered and other anonimous banking systems, start developing alternative energy sourses rather and restart American production so we stop taking 70% of the worlds reasorses and useing the world as a sweat shop to the detriment of our own production workers jobs, that is a wee start. As to the rich kid and poor kid, don't forget the rich kid, in this instance has his toys because the poor kid's folks are living in poverty to maintain that particular rich kid, as to giving war a chance, we have again and again, and it hasn't worked yet. Your suggestions will do no more than to make New York as safe as Hebron. If I wanted to live in Hebron, I'd move there, but the decision you are esposing are bringing Hebron to New York, No thanks. I rather justice than war. For those of you who think justice begins and ends with retributive justice, crack a book, that is only revenge, the easest justice with the poorest results.
Well, see you all later, cheers all,
Larry

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24 Oct 01 - 04:11 PM (#578945)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: SharonA

Larry says: "...as to giving war a chance, we have again and again, and it hasn't worked yet."

What's your definition of "working"? Please give an example of a situation in which peace has "worked." I'm thinking of the story of Adam and Eve, and even then peace didn't work because of greed and jealousy.

By the way, what is your non-retributive definition of justice? How would you deal with the criminally unjust to keep them from committing more criminally unjust acts?

Larry also says: "As to the rich kid and poor kid, don't forget the rich kid, in this instance has his toys because the poor kid's folks are living in poverty to maintain that particular rich kid."

Now, I've been assuming that the "poor kid" in your analogy is the average Afghan or Saudi or other Middle Eastern Muslim who has turned terrorist. But up until now I'd thought the "rich kid" was the US; now I'm thinking you must mean the rich Middle Eastern oil magnates, since the US buys the oil from them and therefore they, not the US, are the ones keeping the "poor kids" in poverty. If they are not sharing the wealth with the people of their own countries, why does the US need to pay twice (once for the oil and then again for the greed of others)? Osama bin Laden himself is a fine example of a "spoiled rich kid" saving himself from a beating by the poor kids, by pointing to another kid across the playground and yelling, "It's his fault, not mine! I'm on YOUR side! Let's get him!" Instead of squandering his wealth to attack America, bin Laden could have helped the poverty-stricken of his own homeland in a constructive way. So why not tell him THAT in your letter to him, instead of complaining along with him about how terrible the US is?

As for the US "using the world as a sweat shop," that should indeed be stopped... but that would require other countries of the world to stop abusing their workers and putting them in sweatshops to make goods to export to the US! The US is not the only greedy country here!!! What is your plan to stop the WORLD – not just America – from driving people to terrorism and to war?

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24 Oct 01 - 05:41 PM (#578991)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Little Hawk

Peace works extremely well. Take a look around. War is an anomaly and an exception to the general rule in this world.

Violence is also an anomaly and an exception to the general rule in life. You might not think that if you watch TV, where you can easily see several murders (or a hundred of them) in a single day, but live real life and you are quite unlikely to personally see even one murder in a year in most places. It's a very uncommon act.

So I submit that peace does indeed work, it works very well, and it works most of the time in most places, because most people are peaceful by nature as long as they're not in an absolute state of desperation. Even most soldiers would rather sit around the fire and have dinner than be in a battle. I realize there is the odd exception to that...and I do mean odd. Patton, for example, loved combat, and seemed almost unable to be happy for long without it. He was a rare person in that respect.

Peace is the normal state of affairs in this world. War is not.

And justice? Justice is established through equality. Meaning...everyone gets a reasonably equal start in life when they are born, with equal opportunities to apply themselves. How do we achieve that? Through gradual social change all over the world. It will take generations to do it. It's not a task for the impatient, that's for sure.

The impatient would much rather blow up skyscrapers and fight wars with each other. They want victory, not justice. When they secure the victory, they call it "justice"...over the bodies of those they have slain.

- LH

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24 Oct 01 - 06:42 PM (#579015)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: SharonA

I'd like to hear Larry's answer to my questions, too... (though I think it's time for someone who knows how to make a blueclickey to create a "Part 2" of this thread!)

...but okay, LH, I'll respond: I disagree that "peace is the normal state of affairs in this world"; more often than not, someone is in combat with someone else somewhere, and the rest of the time soldiers are being trained for the eventuality. The world has lived under the threat of nuclear annihilation for the past sixty-some years; that has become the normal state of affairs for us today. Even in a supposedly peaceful society, there are not only murders but rapes, robberies, riots and domestic terrorism, not to mention spousal abuse, child abuse, bar fights, road rage and so forth. Violence an anomaly? I contend that it is an intrinsic part of human nature, once vital to our survival as a species, and now controlled only with limited success by societal mores. It is to our credit as humans that we have evolved to the point that at least some of us WANT peace to be the norm.

I'll ask you, too, LH: what would you do with the unjust besides defeat them, remove them from the society that desires peace and justice, and punish them?

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24 Oct 01 - 07:16 PM (#579033)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST,just a nobody

Conflict is, and always has been natural. It does not mean that I believe in the whole-sale slaughter of people. Animals, man being one, compete for resources. When resources are scarce or threatened, conflict arises. You will find that many of the 'conflicts' can be broken down into a fight over resources. A bar fight that erupts over a woman, the woman is the resource. One man wants what another man has. (Sorry for the sexist way of putting it). The difference is, when man evolved, so did the resources. Man does not fight only for a mate, food, and shelter; But they fight for a different set of priorities. But the fight is, in essense over the same thing.

Just a couple thoughts.

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24 Oct 01 - 07:32 PM (#579046)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: DougR

SharonA: you ask the hard questions don't you? I wouldn't expect to receive any "hard" answers though. You'll probably get a lot more philosophical rhetoric, I would guess. Probably not a lot new though. Actually, it appears to me that both sides on this issue (though I think the thread is is not titled appropriately) are beginning to repeat arguments.

I don't think anyone on this forum "wishes" for war. None of us certainly "wished" the terrorists would kill six thousand of our fellow citizens or citizens of other countries at the WTC, or the Pentagon, or in airplanes they hijacked.

DougR

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24 Oct 01 - 08:01 PM (#579068)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST,petr

sure there are some who wish for war, ie. warlords who make big money smuggling drugs, weapons, but most people dont, on the other hand if someone were to hurt a loved one I would say the most ardent peace supporter would want to see blood. (like Stan Rogers in Harris and the Mare)

of course in 1939 CHamberlain was all for peace (according to Churchill he wanted peace with honour and received neither)

to those that suggest the UN handle this, well the UN in a way has been handling it, they were in there distributing food, in freezing the finances, and will most likely be there after the Taliban collapses, to give aid and keep peace. THe UN however is not a world govt. only an association of member states it also recognizes the right of individual states to defend themselves. Moreover the UN was unable to stop the slaughter in Rwanda and the ethnic cleansing in the former Yugoslavia (until NATO stepped in - now Milosevic is on trial and Yugoslavia has a democratic govt.

to the root causes, and chickens are coming home to roost crowd they are all essentially legitimizing the terrorists actions on sept 11. To say the terrorists have a legitimate beef because of past US. policy is to blame the holocaust on the nations that imposed the Versailles treaty on Germany.

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24 Oct 01 - 08:13 PM (#579079)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: ddw

SharonA —— excellent points! A little thinking goes a long way toward negating the mea culpas of the knee-jerk peaceniks would have us saying.

No, folks, wars don't work if by "work" you mean create long-term solutions. Every generation has to define and exorise its own demons. Witness the fact that now there are thousands of young people around the world who think the Nazis were right. And, if the reports of those who tract such things can be believed, their numbers are growing.

But, as Sharon so eloquently pointed out, peace doesn't work either if one person doesn't want to play by the rules. And her point about bin Laden certainly puts paid to the tired old have-have not economic analysis of the roots of war. I think even Marx would have admitted that what is going on here is not a class struggle, but a clash of religions and ideologies.

A Marxist interpretation of WWII would have run into some problems too, but that's for another discussion.

Frank —— Enlightenment would be a fine thing, but how do you enlighten someone who is already operating on the revealed word of God (or Allah, or whoever)?

Larry —— "Share the wealth for peace"? I think Sharon has pretty effectively shown the hollowness of that argument, but even if you ignore her demonstrably true analysis, yours sounds suspiciously like trying to buy peace.

Ever done any analysis of how best to handle blackmailers and extortionists? Isn't it conventional wisdom that the worst thing you can do is appease them, buy them off? They will always come back for more.

Little Hawk —— Sure peace works, but only for a little while at a time. Watch a bunch of kids at play. Or a bunch of animals. Or, if you're given to that sort of thing, read the Bible, Koran, Book of the Dead or whatever. Things always change. A perfectly peaceful group can spawn one greedy, ambitious person and — if that person has the ability to persuade people to follow him — he can wreak havoc on everyone around him, friend and foe alike. Think about Cain and Abel and take it from there.

"Peace is the normal state of affairs in the world. War is not."

WHAT?!!!

Tell me a time in recorded history when there has not be a war — or many wars — going on. Peace is no more "normal" than war among human beings. You can dislike it, rail against it, demonstrate logically that it's bad for everybody and wish all you want, but that doesn't make war "unnatural" or an anomaly in human interaction.

I just reiterate; Would that you were right.

But since I don't think you are, could you tell me who your supplier is for the stuff that gives you such a fuzzy, rosy view of the world.....????

cheers,

david

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24 Oct 01 - 08:43 PM (#579094)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: Donuel

The thread starter is correct. However the use of small pox, plague, binary super bio agents, Marsburg and the innocent in comparison anthrax could result in 10 - 120 million US fatalities which would indeed change the balance of economic and political influence in the world.
There would then be little standing in bin Laden's way to become the grand mullah of Saudi Arabia or perhaps king.
If I may be droll: You know how these family squabbles can get out of hand.

BTW...Oil and religion don't mix.

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24 Oct 01 - 08:52 PM (#579098)
Subject: RE: for all who wish for war
From: GUEST,SharonA at the library

Thanks, ddw (and DougR, too!)

This thread is now well over 100 posts. Time to go to PART 2:

for all who wish for war PART 2

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