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25 Oct 01 - 07:17 AM (#579282) Subject: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Mikey joe Hi I merely want to say this. What do people mean by the term Celtic Music?... I think that by this most people mean Scottish/Irish songs and tunes. Songs and Music from bith traditions are similar and have been interchanged a lot. But the Welsh are Celts and so are Bretons and Galacians and the Cornish. Music from these regions are quite different from what most people call Celtic music, but are equally celtic. All I am saying is that the Celts were a race of people thousands of years ago covering a lot of Europe (not just Ireland & Scotland) I doubt they would know Drowsy Maggie, The Atholl Highlanders or The Fields of Athenry if they came up and bit them on the arse. And what would they make of The Trip to Pakistan!! So please stop using the term Celtic Music, Celtic bands etc. They are Irish Scottish, Welsh etc.
End transmission
Mj |
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25 Oct 01 - 07:22 AM (#579283) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: The_one_and_only_Dai I'd just like to point out that whe word 'Celtic' comes from the ancient Greek 'Keltoi', meaning "everybody who isn't an ancient Greek, Mede or Persian and therefore a barbarian". I'd like to add my support to Mj's request, the term 'Celtic' only has any validity in California, where they write books about such things. |
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25 Oct 01 - 07:42 AM (#579289) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Fibula Mattock It's unlikely that these Celts were actually a race of people - it is a term which more correctly describes the spread of a material culture. We've done this discussion before somewhere...I'll have a look for old threads if I get a moment. |
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25 Oct 01 - 07:45 AM (#579292) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Fibula Mattock Aye, here's one. |
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25 Oct 01 - 07:45 AM (#579293) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: gnu I play Irish Traditional and Troubles tunes. But, when I tell people it's Celtic, they know what I meant to say. Tommy Makem was on a local TV station last night and made the distinction between the "folk" Celtic and the newer music with Celtic flavour. Gosh, it'll never be clear. I just know what I like. |
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25 Oct 01 - 08:15 AM (#579312) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: InOBU Having a CELTIC band myself, Celtic is a linguistic definition. We do songs in Breton and Gaelic. So when it come to BOING! http://sorchadorcha.com ! The plug-o-matic strikes again, thanks Spaw... so as I was saying we are a Celtic, not exclusively Irish band. Cheers Larry |
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25 Oct 01 - 08:19 AM (#579314) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: The_one_and_only_Dai ...Atlantic Fringe maybe? 'Celtic' conjures up too many images of headhunting cattle thieves with questionable personal hygiene for me... |
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25 Oct 01 - 08:24 AM (#579320) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: GUEST,Mr Red at work. I don't wish to be three legged about this (or particulalry "dragon coch") but.... where are the Manx on this? and Orcadians may insist on a category of their own. |
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25 Oct 01 - 08:27 AM (#579322) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Wolfgang What is Celtic Music? I thought I'd link to two former discussions. The gist of that discussion was that a label as 'Celtic Music' makes sense under very very rare circumstances. As for instance in a German music shop: They have too many CDs for a subdivision named 'folk' (in contrast e.g. to 'classic') to make sense and not enough for subdivisions like 'Irish', 'Welsh', 'English'...So they use labels like 'South American', 'Celtic' for the convenience of their customers. Wolfgang |
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25 Oct 01 - 08:56 AM (#579351) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: JedMarum it's true that people most often refer to Irish and Scottish tunes/songs when they say Celtic music - but it is not true they ignore the other Celts; Welsh, Bretons, Galacians, Cornish ... the others may be under-represented by volume, but they are still acknowledged by every description of Celtic music that I've seen. |
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25 Oct 01 - 09:11 AM (#579370) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Gary T If a performer who plays Irish and/or Scottish music says he plays Celtic music, that is true. I don't see much to be gained by insisting that those who claim to play Celtic music play every variety of Celtic music that exists. |
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25 Oct 01 - 09:11 AM (#579371) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: MMario and at least most people now know not to pronounce it "sel-tick" |
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25 Oct 01 - 09:20 AM (#579375) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: InOBU A "Sel tick" is a tall fellow, usually African American who plays a game in which the point seems to place a ball through a net suspended from a ring placed just above the reach of many humans, while a Kelt speaks a Keltic language and plays fairly nice though often abused music... Larry |
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25 Oct 01 - 09:36 AM (#579389) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: The_one_and_only_Dai Also, a 'sel-tick' can be a red-faced gentleman or lady wearing a green and white hooped football jersey. they are often found in close proximity to barmaids' aprons. |
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25 Oct 01 - 10:57 AM (#579451) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: GUEST,english jon so...is english music celtic then? ej |
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25 Oct 01 - 11:01 AM (#579455) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Wolfgang of course yes, in a German record shop and of course no, in the repertoire of InOBU's group. Wolfgang |
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25 Oct 01 - 11:08 AM (#579461) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: The_one_and_only_Dai "All things are true, even false things" "How can this be, master?" "Don't blame me man, I didn't do it" |
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25 Oct 01 - 12:28 PM (#579509) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Mr Red geographically speaking Irish Music is from the British Isles (as opposed to British) but I doubt that many Gaels would speak of it thus. Celtic suits me as a generic term. What about music from Cape Breton Island? If that is not Celtic despite the flavour and origin and culture then I'll be hornswaggled. What'll you be? **BTW** ask any casual passer-by and they would call it Irish music because a) it is a session b) it goes diddly dee c) unless they are into it they pick-up on the similarities when we KNOW the differences. |
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25 Oct 01 - 01:01 PM (#579552) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Clinton Hammond As far as I was aware, the celts are all extince now anyway... so I doubt they give a tinkers cuss... Play music you like, and don't get snarled up in arbitrary, usless definitions... Mind you, I'm also in favour of dropping the term "Celtic Music"... I'd rather call myself a folk musician... :-) |
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25 Oct 01 - 01:10 PM (#579569) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: GUEST,colwyn dane Hi folks, I'm sure this has been done to death before but if you are interested in the correct pronunciation of Celtic then journey here where Sharon L. Krossa presents some reasoned opinion.
This reminds me of the time Australia went metric and the then Australian Prime Minister wrote to Enoch Powell in England on how the word 'kilometre' should be pronounced -kil'lometer or keelo'meter?
Just my two percent. |
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25 Oct 01 - 01:13 PM (#579571) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: RWilhelm I saw a band from Normandy (I forget the name) who referred to their music as Celtic. It was lively dance music played in guitar, fiddle, hurdy gurdy, and bombard, with very little resemblance to Irish or Scottish music. In Boston it is music played at basketball games and the "C" is soft. |
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25 Oct 01 - 01:30 PM (#579594) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Bert When I was a kid "sel-tik' was used and listed in the dictionary as an alternative pronunciation. But of course that's just in the English language. It only changed to the archaic pronunciation when the folk purists got hold of the term. Is English music Celtic? Yes some of it, especially that from Cornwall and the west country. |
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25 Oct 01 - 02:18 PM (#579651) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Jimmy C The term Celtic (Kel-tik)describes music and or customs which have a commmon cultural origin and include Irish - Scottish - Manx - Welsh - Cornish - and Breton Celts and also to those distantly related Celts of Austuria and Galicia in north-west Spain. Any traditional music or custom from these areas can be correctly referred to as Celtic, bearing in mind that there wil be differences due to outside influences and localized traditions. The music and customs from these areas would also have travelled via emigration to other parts such as the Cape Breton area and also parts of Newfoundland, Louisianna, and places too numerous to menton, through time there wouldbe changes to the music, some dramatic and some not so pronounced. If the music or song has it roots in any of these localities then it has the right to be referred to as Celtic or at best Celtic Style. I must agree with Clinton and say lets just enjoy what we have no matter what it is called. As far as the pronounciation is concerned I will CERTAINLY CONTINUE or is it SERTAINLY SONTINUE to call it Kel-Tic. Grin Jimmy C |
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25 Oct 01 - 02:53 PM (#579692) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Mac Tattie In Scotland a kelt is a diseased salmon and anything celtic has to do with a Glasgow football team. cheers |
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25 Oct 01 - 06:54 PM (#579899) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Gareth Normandy ?? Celtic ???? Does this mean we Celts regained the lost lands in 1066 ??? And if so who the h*ll have we been fighting ever since. Gareth |
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25 Oct 01 - 07:42 PM (#579934) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: GUEST,Al The Celtics, the basketball team from Massachusetts, is pronounced sel-tiks. Oh, well, the English language, and its variants, has never been rightly accused of excessive consistency. But when people ask you what kind of music you play, you've got to have a quick and easy answer for them so you don't get bogged down in detail each and every time. For those who adhere to the Scots/Irish tradition, Celtic seems like a fine answer. People sort of know what it means. |
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25 Oct 01 - 11:38 PM (#580059) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Dicho (Frank Staplin) Ho Hum. Celtic is a useful group term and certainly includes Breton, Cape Breton, etc. etc. Should a group that plays Scots, Irish, Breton, Galician, etc. change its name when it switches from one to the other? I agree with guest Al. Bert is right about the pronunciation, Seltic was preferred in the OED and Webster's with Keltic in second place. Outside of musical circles, it is still seltic to most people in the United States but Webster's now places Keltic first (haven't seen the latest OED). What, me worry? |
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26 Oct 01 - 12:55 AM (#580094) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Malcolm Douglas Part of the problem is that Scottish and Irish music have more, in terms both of repertoire and style, in common with English music than they do with, for example, Breton music, which in turn has more in common with French music, etc. etc. The same is true of the general cultures of those countries. As a person of mixed race (in fact, almost everybody over here is, whether they realise it or not), I have never understood this apparently irrational insistence on trying to impose what can only be an arbitrary dividing line between the traditional musics of the various nations that comprise what I may as well call, for convenience, the British Isles. Is a song "Celtic" because it's sung in Scotland, or is it "English" when it's sung a hundred yards or so over the border? Am I, as a person born in England of (recent) Scottish descent, more, or less, Celtic than a person born in Scotland of (common example) Italian parents? In what way is such a distinction meaningful? The "Celtic" label as we know it today began as a romantic -and rather ill-informed- notion of the 19th century, and is perpetuated mostly as a marketing ploy by the recording industry; except insofar as it applies to language and to archaeology, the term is so abused as to be functionally meaningless; we no longer talk about "Aryan" music, after all. I have to admit that, like others, I describe the music I play as "Celtic" when answering questions from people who know nothing about the subject; they don't know what it means, but they think they do, so it saves time. |
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26 Oct 01 - 04:00 AM (#580143) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Banjer Mind you, I'm also in favour of dropping the term "Celtic Music"... I'd rather call myself a folk musician... OK, so define 'folk'! Banjerrunningandduckingforcover..... |
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26 Oct 01 - 04:21 AM (#580149) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: The_one_and_only_Dai ...oh chr*st, here we go... |
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26 Oct 01 - 06:10 AM (#580173) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Banjer Dai there's room under this tree, come and hide with me til it blows over!!! (Somebody had to stir the pot to see how it smelled, might as well be me this time) |
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26 Oct 01 - 07:44 AM (#580213) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: GUEST Shouldn't that have been y ddraig goch? dragon coch must be wenglish |
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26 Oct 01 - 08:18 AM (#580223) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Mr Red y ddraig goch? if I could sairad cymru yes, otherwise wenglish it is though if we are being picky picky (oh, OK I am) it sould be Wenglish or WEnglish **BG** without labels it's all music or worse - NOISE. Ya just dun gotta hang a label of some sort - its called communication. |
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26 Oct 01 - 08:39 AM (#580235) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Grab And don't get started on traditional songs from non-Irish origins that have been popularisted by CDs and singers of the "Oirish party mix" variety (Danny Boy, From Clare to here, Wild Rover, etc). Or jigs and reels written by English ppl. Just call it "diddly-diddly" music - then everyone'll know what you mean, regardless of what the national origin of the diddly-diddly music is. Graham. |
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26 Oct 01 - 10:31 AM (#580342) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Maryrrf Well, I think "Celtic Music" has come to mean something (however vague) to the general public, so I use it for convenience. "Folk" music doesn't really mean traditional music anymore, I think it means something like "acoustic singer songwriter music". Traditional music sometimes works, but let's face it - any kind of label can become problematic! |
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26 Oct 01 - 10:38 AM (#580349) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: catspaw49 Bert, I want to thank you for that post and the fact that "sel-tik" was/is an actual way of saying it. I mean, it always struck me as odd that a town full of Irish (Boston) would screw up the word. Spaw |
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26 Oct 01 - 10:47 AM (#580355) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: guinnesschik I heard Donnie MacDonald, who is a wonderful Scottish perfromer from way up north in the Hebrides Islands pronounce it as "Sel-tic." When questioned on it, he claimed the pronunciation is a regional thing. I usually say Scot/Irish/American, 'cause when we play it, it is. |
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26 Oct 01 - 10:55 AM (#580363) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Tedham Porterhouse It is my understanding that the Celtic regions are Ireland, Brittany, Scotland, Wales, the Isle of Man, the Cornwall region in England and the Galicia and Asturias regions of Spain. |
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26 Oct 01 - 11:26 AM (#580383) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler I hate all this ethnic rivalry. An Englishman, an Irishman and a Scotsman were arguing which race weighed the least. The Irishman said: "We have men of Cork". The Scotsman said: "Yes, but we have men of Ayr". The Englishman said:"Yes, but we have lightermen on the Thames." RtS (technically one-quarter Irish but wholly Brummie) |
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26 Oct 01 - 12:59 PM (#580442) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: RWilhelm Gareth, I meant to say Brittany, not Normandy. Go ahead, keep fighting. |
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26 Oct 01 - 04:15 PM (#580563) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: GUEST,Celtic Soul :::Sniff, sniff::: Lord...now I have to find a new name?!?!?!?! But, "Scots-Irish Soul" just doesn't have the same ring to it! :::giggle!!::: |
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26 Oct 01 - 06:39 PM (#580636) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Gareth That OK - Earl (A good Saxon title) When we've finished the intertribal fight we will return to the March. Garydd ap (continued for several hundred ancestors) PS BTW My Great (to the power of many) grandfather would like the arrows he fired at Agincourt back. They are heirlooms - Can any Boubon Catters oblidge ??? |
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26 Oct 01 - 07:03 PM (#580650) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Kelticgrasshopper Only in here can this stuff happen. Celtic, Seltic, Keltic, Irish/ Scottish, Breton. Whatever you call it, those of us who are fortunate enough to perform in the small circle of "the celtic tradition" just love it. |
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27 Oct 01 - 09:37 AM (#580874) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Mr Red Yea just love it - makin' musik . Beats the kak out of switchin' on and blobbin'. quite like "French" as well. |
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27 Oct 01 - 06:48 PM (#581088) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Crane Driver When the Saxons took over most of Britain, it was just a change of boss-men. They had to keep the peasants on to do all the work, while the bosses got on with boozing and fighting. And who created and passed on folk music? Of course English folk music is celtic as well, as if anyone cared. I only have problems when someone uses "Celtic" as a stick to beat other people's music with - I was once at a festival in Cornwall which banned English songs and tunes for not being "Celtic" (English-language songs from Wales, Scotland or Ireland were OK) Crazy or what? Musicians always have travelled (looking for cheap booze) and picked up tunes from everywhere. I've even heard English Morris dancers using Beethoven's 9th (on melodeon)! Damn good Morris tune. English? Celtic? Who cares? |
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27 Oct 01 - 06:52 PM (#581093) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Gareth Oih ! Crane Driver - The Saxons never got further West than Chepstow. Garydd. |
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28 Oct 01 - 06:24 PM (#581568) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Gypsy Howzabout simply Musician? By the time i get thru irish/breton/old time/folk/trad/french/pop/whathaveyou....could have gotten thru an entire session! ;) |
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28 Oct 01 - 09:19 PM (#581661) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) I think "Celtic" really does a disservice to the vvarious unique qualities to the different musics of the "Celtic Nations", even amongst the Isish and Scots which may be the closest but still have their own little quirks which give them there respective charms. You wouldn't meet someone from Korea and say "OH I have a friend who's Chinese!" I prefer "traditional Irish music" but it's given birth to the unfortunate buzz-word "TRAD" which has come to occupy every other sentence spoken by that segment of the population that needs to put the word "craic" in every other sentence. "Oh yeah we have great CRAIC down at such-and-such pub. Mostly sit around and play TRAD abd drink THE BLACK STUFF. (OK there's a third one)I'm telling you, some of the best TRAD you'll ever hear is down at such-and-such. Great CRAIC,indeed!" Sounds like the valley girls of the early '80s. That black stuff is totally gnarly, I mean, fer sure gag me with a spoon. Rich |
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29 Oct 01 - 12:27 AM (#581723) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: GUEST,skylark Go to h*ll everybody, you have no lives, get over it it's Keltic, and it's Scot's-Irish because the rest of you f*cking losers and their brothers wouldn't know the difference between Irish, Scottish, or German music anyway. And The Celtics Still Suck! I say we embark on the ancient tradition of the KELTIC peoples and all get drunk. |
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29 Oct 01 - 09:55 AM (#581887) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: GUEST,Adolfo When you have finished with all this barbarian Celtic thing, may I suggest we start with "Latin" music? What is this? Salsa?...ie. sauce?, Carlos Santana and Pavarotti singing Nessun Dorma, while The University Choir of San Antonio hums Ricky Martin's latest hit (in English)? Latin? I can almost picture the XII Legion Italica Victorica under Caius Leppidus Germanicus drunk and dancing along the Hadrian Wall...that's Latin music. |
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29 Oct 01 - 10:03 AM (#581888) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: The_one_and_only_Dai yeh - the Valeria Victrix Rag - How Many Stadia to Babylon - or this (scroll to the bottom)... |
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29 Oct 01 - 10:47 AM (#581914) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: GUEST,aldus Why DO people insist on sawing sawdust..we all know what celtic music means..it does not mean the exclusion of anything..it means celtic..dead simple. Aldus |
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29 Oct 01 - 02:10 PM (#582086) Subject: RE: BS: No more Celtic pleeeease?? From: Maryrrf That was a good point about the meaninglessness of the term "Celtic" - comparing it to "Latin" music which is just as meaningless - if not more. "Latin" music encompasses so many very different styles, different countries and different influences. I think of it as being mostly Spanish language but of course it isn't at all. I guess these generalized labels all present their difficulties. |