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Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.

31 Oct 01 - 01:51 PM (#583243)
Subject: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: The Shambles

Is it reasonable to assume that all of these fol dum de riddle um didos, at the end of lines in songs, were just things sung when you did not have instruments to do it?

31 Oct 01 - 01:56 PM (#583249)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: Kim C

That, and to fill up space. I love songs with nonsense in them. We do several. Seems like most of them (excepting sea shanties) are pre-19th century but I don't know for sure, just an observation on my part.

31 Oct 01 - 01:59 PM (#583251)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: MMario

I strongly suspect some of them were used the way they often are when sung nowadays - as repeating lines that the audience knew and could join in on

31 Oct 01 - 02:03 PM (#583254)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: GUEST

Of course it might just be that they sound good..

31 Oct 01 - 02:23 PM (#583267)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: weepiper

'Vocables', they're called.
I find it kind of interesting comparing the different ones you get in other languages, like Scottish Gaelic tends to use lots of 'hi ho ro' and 'hil o ro bhan o' and that sort of thing. And the way you often get little bits of the line that make sense, i.e. of the structure '[nonsense] and another [same nonsense]' (see 'hi ho ro 's na ho ro eile')

31 Oct 01 - 02:24 PM (#583268)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: nutty

I agree with MMario .... they involved the listener in the song and also helped to establish concentration.

This was an essential tool when singing very long ballads.

31 Oct 01 - 02:55 PM (#583297)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: Fortunato

My favorite is:

Keymo kai-mo, in the land of pharoah, pharoah,

With a rat trap polly doodle pennywinkle sally-o

Sally won't you kai-me-o

Keymo kai-mo, hayro, jayro,

Way down yonder in the land of pharoah

Sally won't you kai-me-o.

01 Nov 01 - 02:36 AM (#583675)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: The Shambles

I tried an experiment. Try the songs you know with these bits in them and instead of singing them, play the notes on a guitar, flute, fiddle whatever instrument you have?

I think musically a lot of the songs contain phrases that are questions. The melody phrase is incomplete to our ears without the answering phrase.

So the melody has to be taken back to enable a new musical question to be asked. It is more natuarally done instrumentally, but in the absence of these, historically or many reasons (including legal bans, it would be done by singing the line, fol de riddle tiddle dum day?

01 Nov 01 - 02:40 AM (#583677)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: The Shambles

Possibly also when you are singing words to, not the original or a different tune and the words won't fit into the tune you are using?

01 Nov 01 - 04:01 AM (#583686)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: masato sakurai

Some of the previous related threads are:

Lilting

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=4623#25607">Mouth music

Mouth tunes

~Masato

01 Nov 01 - 04:03 AM (#583687)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: masato sakurai

Mouth music

~Masato

01 Nov 01 - 12:49 PM (#584006)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: GUEST,JohnB

I seem to remember something about censorship being one reason for the Di di diddle i diddle i dum's. JohnB

02 Nov 01 - 06:26 AM (#584500)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: GUEST,Angel

I posted a thread on this topic q while back - "Diddle-e-i-di-di - WHY?" - http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=27262&messages=19 (can't do blue clicky)

03 Nov 01 - 04:17 AM (#585238)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: The Shambles

'Got a black cat bone', Dum diddle o do.

Not quite the same, is it?

03 Nov 01 - 04:53 AM (#585240)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: Bert

The truth is that "Tooralie Ooralie Ay" is Gaelic for "I've forgotten the words" and "Fol de riddle I do" is Old English and means the same thing.

03 Nov 01 - 07:06 AM (#585264)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: GUEST,Paul Burke

The shanty chorus "John kanakanaka tooray ay" is actually French:

Jean qui n'a qu'un nacre, tous raillaient

that is

Jean who has only one "mother-of-pearl", everybody was jeering.

At least, in my French dictionary, that's the only meaning given for "nacre".

03 Nov 01 - 07:25 AM (#585270)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: MMario

I thought the various john Kanaka-naka's were derived from pidginezed Hawaiian?

04 Nov 01 - 03:02 AM (#585597)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: The Shambles

As a Hawaiian pidgeon, can you please you leave my Kanaka's out of this?

04 Nov 01 - 08:01 PM (#585940)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: BanjoRay

Maybe the English "Nacker" or "Knacker" for testicle comes from the French "Nacre"?

Cheers
Ray

05 Nov 01 - 07:03 PM (#586295)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: Snuffy

John kanaka-naka tu-lai-ay

05 Nov 01 - 07:19 PM (#586304)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: Uncle_DaveO

Pidgin, not pigeon or Pidgeon.

06 Nov 01 - 06:51 AM (#586599)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: GUEST,Noreen

Perhaps, Ray- but what would be the connection? :0)

Shambles, I thought it was funny anyway...

06 Nov 01 - 08:55 AM (#586646)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: LR Mole

"Turn, turn, to the wind and the rain." I notice that there are a number of people who just don't feel comfortable joining in. Interesting when so many sining commercials are not only nonsensical but greedy (see how many people can finish the "Two all-beef patties, lettuce,sauce, etc.) Now there's the solution: sell whack-fol space to advertisers!

07 Nov 01 - 05:47 AM (#587273)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: alanww

Stan Hugill (p211) says "Kanaka" means "Hawaiian" but he doesn't say what the refrain "tulai-e" meant. (I have used his italics, but his "e" has an accent over it, which I don't know how to reproduce.)

I thought I heard the old man say ...!
Alan

07 Nov 01 - 02:02 PM (#587577)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: Little Hawk

It's a handy device that works great in certain songs, so why not use it?

- LH

07 Nov 01 - 05:21 PM (#587776)
Subject: RE: Rum tum fol de riddle o days etc.
From: Snuffy

Alan you type an ampersand (&)then eacute then a semi-colon with no spaces and you get é.

tulai-é.