06 Mar 98 - 07:04 PM (#23204) Subject: Lyr/Tune Add: FLOWERS AND WEEDS/WHEN HA BLEJENNOW From: Flowers and Weeds
In my garden grew plenty of thyme,
Ow lowarth o gans tym lenwys,
MIDI file: FLOWEED.mid Timebase: 480 Tempo: 070 (857142 microsec/crotchet) This program is worth the effort of learning it. To download the January 15 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here ABC format: X: 1
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06 Mar 98 - 09:35 PM (#23213) Subject: RE: ADD LYR Flowers and Weeds From: Jerry Friedman What language is that, Cornish? And does the thyme pun work in that language? |
08 Mar 98 - 07:13 PM (#23348) Subject: RE: ADD LYR Flowers and Weeds From: BAZ Yes. It's a version of the language called Unified Cornish. Great Minds are at this moment researching the tongue to provide us with a common version. But the numbers of us that can speak it are growing. The pun works just the same it must be universal I reckon. Baz |
09 Mar 98 - 03:35 PM (#23358) Subject: RE: ADD LYR Flowers and Weeds From: Bruce O. This is well known elsewhere by other names. I have little doubt that the Child ballad "The Gardener Lad", "The Seeds of Love", and "The Garden of Thyme" are all from a lost 17th century broadside ballad, probably called "The Maids Garden of Tyme". The sequel to it is "The Young-Mans Answer to the Maids Garden of Tyme", 1696, ZN1741, in my internet broadside index (in the links on this forum's home page as 17th century ballads).
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18 Mar 98 - 09:26 AM (#24066) Subject: RE: ADD LYR Flowers and Weeds From: Walter P. I'm still new to this forum. I would like to look at the sequel to "Garden of Tyme", which you mention, "The Young-Mans Answer", but I don't see links on the forum home page to ZN1741, "internet broadside index", or "17th century ballads" ... all I see are the current threads of the forum discussion. Odds are I'm not at the correct home page..... |
18 Mar 98 - 10:58 AM (#24077) Subject: RE: ADD LYR Flowers and Weeds From: Bruce O. I thought I posted it, but couldn't find what thread. It's now in a new thread, Gardner Lad |
25 Jun 20 - 03:14 AM (#4061268) Subject: RE: Origins: Flowers and Weeds / Plenty of Thyme From: Joe Offer We could probably spend some time exploring this family of songs. Here's the Traditional Ballad Index entry: In My Garden Grew Plenty of ThymeDESCRIPTION: The singer laments the loss of her thyme. She had spent her life making herself fair, only to find her thyme stolen by a sailor. Now "I gaze on the willow tree," and "I would I were clasped in my lover's arms fast, for 'tis he who has stolen my thyme"AUTHOR: unknown EARLIEST DATE: 1891 (Reeves-Circle) KEYWORDS: loneliness sailor seduction virginity gardening FOUND IN: US(Ap,MW,So) Britain(England(Lond,South)) Canada(Mar) REFERENCES (15 citations): Williams-Thames, pp. 85-86, "I Once Had Plenty of Thyme" (1 text) (also Wiltshire-WSRO Wt 451) Reeves-Circle 116D, "Flowers and Weeds" (1 text) VaughanWilliams/Palmer, #86, "The Red Running Rue" (1 text, 1 tune, although since Vaughan Williams took down only the first and last verses, it's not absolutely clear that the tune goes with this song) Randolph 90, "Keep Your Garden Clean" (1 text, 1 tune) Randolph/Cohen, pp. 122-124, "Keep Your Garden Clean" (1 text, 1 tune -- Randolph's 90) Wells, pp. 272-273, "Keep Your Garden Clean" (1 text, 1 tune) Eddy 28, "Once I Had Plenty of Thyme" (2 texts, 1 tune, although both texts are largely derived from "The Seeds of Love") Sharp-100E 34, "The Sprig of Thyme" (1 text, 1 tune) JHCox 138, "The Green Willow Tree: or, Once I Had Plenty of Thyme" (1 text) Burton/Manning1, p. 90, "A Warning Song" (1 text, 1 tune) Owens-1ed, pp. 196-197, "Come All You Pretty Fair Maids" (1 text, 1 tune) Owens-2ed, p. 52, "Come All You Pretty Fair Maids" (1 text, 1 tune) Creighton-NovaScotia 26, "When I Was in My Prime" (1 text, 1 tune, more like this than the other thyme songs, though it's long and has probably picked up some outside elements) Pottie/Ellis, pp. 98-99, "When I Was In My Prime" (1 text, 1 tune) DT, THYMEGAR THYMSEED (THYMTH2) Roud #3 RECORDINGS: Cyril Poacher, "Plenty of Thyme" (on Voice12) BROADSIDES: Bodleian, Harding B 11(2793), "Sprig of Thyme," J.O. Bebbington (Manchester), 1855-1858 CROSS-REFERENCES: cf. "The Seeds of Love" cf. "Thyme, It Is a Precious Thing" cf. "The Gowans are Gay" cf. "Garners Gay (Rue; The Sprig of Thyme)" NOTES [256 words]: In flower symbolism, thyme stood for virginity. For a catalog of some of the sundry flower symbols, see the notes to "The Broken-Hearted Gardener." Thyme songs are almost impossible to tell apart, because of course the plot (someone seduces the girl) and the burden (let no man steal your thyme) are always identical. For the same reasons, verses float freely between them. So fragmentary versions are almost impossible to classify. Steve Roud seems to lump all of them. The Digital Tradition has a version, "Rue and Thyme," which seems to have almost all the common elements. Whether it is the ancestor of the various thyme songs, or a gathering together of separate pieces, is not clear to me. The first line here, "In my garden grew plenty of thyme," is diagnostic but sometimes absent. The thrust of the song is how hard the woman worked to make herself beautiful, only to spoil it by losing her virginity. To show how difficult it is to classify all this, Randolph and Ritchie have texts of this called "Keep Your Garden Clean" which are pretty much the same except for the first verse. On the basis of that distinction, I filed Randolph' with "In My Garden Grew Plenty of Thyme" and Ritchie's with "Garners Gay (Rue; The Sprig of Thyme)." Many, including Randolph, Ritchie, and Roud, simply lump the whole business as versions of "The Seeds of Love." Child prints a text (additions and corrections to "The Gardener", p. 258 in Volume V of the Dover edition) which conflates this song, or something similar, with that ballad. - RBW Last updated in version 5.1 File: R090 Go to the Ballad Search form Go to the Ballad Index Instructions The Ballad Index Copyright 2020 by Robert B. Waltz and David G. Engle. |
25 Jun 20 - 11:01 AM (#4061329) Subject: RE: Origins: Flowers and Weeds / Plenty of Thyme From: Steve Gardham Hi Joe Yes this mostly lyric piece has always presented difficulties of classification. Whilst it is possible to separate out 2 main streams, one epitomised by 'Seeds of Love' variants and the other by 'Sprig of Thyme' variants, I can sympathise with those like Steve who lump the whole lot together. Even after studying the whole corpus comparatively, particularly the 18th century versions it is still difficult to separate the two, as they do have stanzas in common. Somebody with the patience of Bob Waltz might be able to separate them out. The pieces are obviously at least as old as the early 18th century and they have been rewritten for the broadside press many times, the appeal being the mildly clever allegories involved. The 'Seeds of Love' variants could be said to make up a more autonomous collection as their sets of stanzas are more stable, the longest probably being the Pitts version, whereas 'Sprig of Thyme' variants of the late 18th century vary enormously. Check out 'The Encouraging Gardener' on the Bodl site (c1770). Odd stanzas turn up in all sorts of combinations of the same period. If I think 2 ballads need separate Roud numbers I normally fight my corner very strongly (e.g. The Died for Love' separations) but on this one I'm happy for now to leave them as collectively Roud 3. |
25 Jun 20 - 05:36 PM (#4061387) Subject: RE: Origins: Flowers and Weeds / Plenty of Thyme From: Steve Gardham FWIW I personally think the Baring Gould Child piece is a concoction by BG, another rewrite on the theme. |
26 Jun 20 - 02:54 PM (#4061557) Subject: RE: Origins: Flowers and Weeds / Plenty of Thyme From: Richard Mellish One friend of mine (but I've forgotten who) used to lump the whole lot together as "Let no gardener steal your wanton seeds of thyme". I have a recording of the late (I believe) Val Watmough singing four versions straight off without mixing them up, which I regard as a tour to force. I can put it on line if people would like to hear it. |
27 Jun 20 - 09:48 AM (#4061684) Subject: RE: Origins: Flowers and Weeds / Plenty of Thyme From: cnd Richard, I think that would be interesting to hear! |
28 Jun 20 - 06:47 AM (#4061847) Subject: RE: Origins: Flowers and Weeds / Plenty of Thyme From: Richard Mellish B---y typo! "tour to force" should of course be "tour de force". My recording of Val is now here. Recorded at her house in Blackbird Leys, 30-11-1967. |
28 Jun 20 - 10:51 AM (#4061885) Subject: RE: Origins: Flowers and Weeds / Plenty of Thyme From: cnd Thanks for sharing, Richard, that's quite impressive! |