MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued

14 Jan 02 - 02:08 PM (#627780)
Subject: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Mrrzy

The old one's getting long...

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14 Jan 02 - 02:10 PM (#627782)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Mrrzy

Bugger the html, I lost my little shortcut I used to have on my computer and tried it from memory. Oh well, if you cut and paste you can see the old thread... here's another stab at it:

The :"http://mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=42962&messages=104"'s getting long...

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14 Jan 02 - 02:12 PM (#627784)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Mrrzy

OK, I looked it up. Don't close that chevron yet!

Let's try this: The Old One's getting old.

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14 Jan 02 - 03:16 PM (#627834)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: CapriUni

Mrrzy (How do you pronounce that, anyway? something like a mumbled "mercy"? ;-)) --

You wrote:

"And CapriUni, if it's REALITY, whether Ultimate or not, it DOES NOT apply to the supernatural. By definition. "

Actually, "Ultimate reality" is the official theological term used by scholars of world religions to apply to whatever the person or culture they're studying believes is the root cause behind existance, whether that cause is supernatural or natural.

(hey! Don't give me such a wierd look! I didn't make the term up, I learned the term when I took a course in world religions in college)

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14 Jan 02 - 03:28 PM (#627843)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: NicoleC

Jerry,

You're wrong, Jehovah's Witnesses do believe that Jesus is the son of God. I think you are thinking of the doctrine of the trinity -- they don't believe in the Trinity, they believe as his son he is inferior to God.

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14 Jan 02 - 03:33 PM (#627845)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: wysiwyg

In our family, equally diverse in feelings about spirituality, it finally became clear that it was NOT about diversity or tolerance, for us-- it was about family communication and people being at different places in their recovery from family-of-origin dysfunctionality.

We too went through a period of trying to make everyone comfortable, but it didn't work because no one actually had that at as a pesonal agenda!! If you looked at people's behavior, which is the best clue-- it was still about people needing one another to understand what had been old wounds delivered out of each one's own pain. Losing battle!

When we moved on, it became more about turf. Hosting rotated. Whoever hosted set a tone. Each year someone got to have it their way, tempered by however well they understood others' comfort zones. No one bitched anymore. Each year we got better at making it not comfortable, but SAFE.

I don't think spirituality is the issue here, and I think it's time to look at the wounds, not the means of receiving them. Mrrzy, you have shared repeatedly that this is an area of pain for you, or I wouldn't "go there" on this. I don't think how you celebrate a family holiday is going to heal these wounds, and I think that the holiday has to happen while whatever you ARE doing to heal them goes on. Putting the onus on the holiday or how it is celebrated... it's gonna be a shoe that won't fit each year, because each family member will be in a different place each and every year. See?

Didn't learn that in church, BTW.

~Susan

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14 Jan 02 - 04:25 PM (#627878)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Jerry Rasmussen

Hi, Nicole: For the issue at hand, I guess it's a moot point whether Witnesses consider Christ a member of the Trinity or not. Jehovah's Witnesses don't celebrate Christmas, or any Holiday...
Jerry

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14 Jan 02 - 05:02 PM (#627902)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Dani

If anyone is interested in reading about Unitarian Universalism, uua.org is a good place to begin. In a denomination of such great diversity, it's tough to generalize, and always easier to say, "This is what we aren't" than "this is what we are."

But earlier comments work well. Most UU folks I know have respect for Jesus as a great teacher, but not as part of a Trinity. Actually, the term 'Unitarian' was intended to distinguish from 'Trinitarians'. There are, however, many Unitarian Universalist who consider themselves Christian, including many of this country's founding fathers and mothers.

Dani

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14 Jan 02 - 05:36 PM (#627915)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: NicoleC

Just different holidays. The JW version of Christmas is held in the spring during Passover and is called Memorial Day -- it's actually more like Easter and Communion mixed together. It's strictly a religious holiday; no parties.

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14 Jan 02 - 05:58 PM (#627928)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Blackcatter

The Jehovah's Witnesses observe Passover and only Passover because that is the one holiday that they can know that Jesus observed. Like most people, the JW believe that the last supper was a Passover Seder.

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14 Jan 02 - 06:00 PM (#627932)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: SharonA

Nicole: I thought that the JW "Memorial Day" was the same day as the Catholic-and-Protestant "Good Friday" – a remembrance of Jesus' death and all that it signifies for them. The JW friend I spoke with about it, some years ago, told me that they don't believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus or celebrate Easter.

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14 Jan 02 - 07:52 PM (#628010)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: NicoleC

It's not Easter, nor is it Passover, but it takes place during Passover week, as did his death. It's a celebration of Jesus' death, resurrection and return to heaven... which makes it more like Easter. However, the resurrection is not one of the body, but as an immortal spirit who stuck around earth to talk to some people for a while before joining his father in heaven.

My Mom was a JW, and I attended all the meetings and bible studies as a kid. When I was little, I always thought we were celebrating Passover like the Jewish kids at school, but the unleavened bread and wine was a remembrance of the Last Supper, not Passover, so that makes it a little like Communion, except not everybody eats and drinks, only the elders of the congregation.

The whole not-celebrating-holidays thing is because they reject those holidays -- namely almost all of them -- which have their ultimate roots in pagan culture, or those that are nationalistic, which is viewed as revering a country more than God.

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14 Jan 02 - 08:09 PM (#628020)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Burke

Mrrzy, the short fact is that Dec. 25 is a holiday because it's Christmas & no matter what you do in you're family celebration it's still going to be Christmas. Have you considered making Jan. 1 your family gathering/gift exchange day? This is also a holiday for most people. You can still do the winter stuff & throw in the new beginnings.

PS, if you don't want Christ you really should not have Saint (Santa) Nicholas (Claus) either.

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15 Jan 02 - 09:40 AM (#628312)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Mrrzy

It's pronounced myrrh-zee, with slightly greater emphasis on the first syullable.

Burke, I agree on no Santa Claus, frankly. And 1/1 doesn't work, too many folks have to work on the 2nd, whereas nobody works on the 26th so it's really a 2-day thing (and on Boxing Day, note not St. Stephen's day, we host the aunts and uncles, cousins and their kids, and close family friends; the 25th is just for the 15 or so of our immediate family. So we really are stuck with the 25th, which we get off because our GOVERNMENT celebrates Christmas, even though we don't. So we're stuck with the date, unfortunately. So we'll celebrate ON Christmas, not celebrate Christmas, and that's OK because of the logistics.

But back to CapriUni's interesting statement: "'Ultimate reality' is the official theological term used by scholars of world religions to apply to whatever the person or culture they're studying believes is the root cause behind existance, whether that cause is supernatural or natural." Well, I'll admit I didn't know it, although I assumed from the prior post that it was SOME theological term. But just look at the underpinning of theism in that term, which is why NON-religious scholars should shun it. It's just like the underpinning of Christianity in theoretically secular US midwinter holiday celebrations. They ASSUME that gods are real to have coined the term, and are actually saying that if you don't believe in gods, that can be your reality too. Hogwash and balderdash and a few other choice words. It IS NOT REALITY if it isn't actually real.

Want to get into whether what we perceive is real at all, hee hee? Now there's another thread for you!

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15 Jan 02 - 10:57 AM (#628346)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: SharonA

Nicole: The Last Supper was a Passover remembrance... but I think I understand what you're saying: that the JW bread-and-wine commemorates what Jesus did and said, and not the time when the Angel of Death passed by the houses of the captive Jews during the last of the plagues visited upon Pharaoah and the Egyptians in the time of Moses. Yes?

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15 Jan 02 - 11:20 AM (#628357)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Dave the Gnome

On a completely different tack and hopefuly adding a bit of light relief let me tell you what our local councils views on Jehovahs Witnesses is.

We had a local public swimming pool. Built many years ago, 1920's I think. It had become a little worse for wear, including large cracks in the structure. When the council suggested pulling it down there was the usual outcry about destroying local heritage etc. I was in agreemenet with the preservationists and wrote to the council asking why they could not restore the fine building rather than pull it down and go to expense of building a new one. I got a standard response that as the area was subject to mining subsidence it was unsafe to have a public building on the same site.

Coudn't argue of course as safety is paramount but I was intrigued when some years later building work began on the same site. Some months later I discovered what the building was - A Kingdom Hall for Jehovahs Witnesses! Apparantly the council either don't consider JW's public or believe them exempt from standard safety rules. (Because of divine intervention?)

Anyway - nothing to do with the thread - sorry - but talk of the JW's reminded me and I'm sat twidling my thumbs at work...;-)

Cheers

Dave the Gnome

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15 Jan 02 - 12:58 PM (#628400)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: NicoleC

Bingo, Sharon.

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15 Jan 02 - 01:26 PM (#628418)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: MMario

What I want to know, is how does everybody get 12/26 off?

I occasionally get 12/24 off (if the 25th is a tuesday) - but have never gotten 12/26 off. not even when 12/25 was a thursday!

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15 Jan 02 - 02:06 PM (#628436)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: John J

At the risk of being called a miserable bugger, I didn't 'do' Christmas this time round. I made sure my wife & children were not left out of the celebration, it's not my place to ruin the fun they all get out of it.

I'm just heartily sick and tired of the whole commercial thing. Also the enforced jollity seriously got up my nose this time round..."it's Christmas, so we ARE going to be happy".

Perhaps I'll feel more positive next Christmas / mid-winter. A re-appraisal of the celebration may help.

John

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15 Jan 02 - 05:06 PM (#628571)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: GUEST,Cathy Christian

Giving presents for Christmas is a relatively new idea. Before that, gifts were given at New Year's and Christmas was spent in church at mass giving thanks for the coming of The Christ - or at Christ Mass. I study Elizabethan England and there are many stories about Elizabeth I making presents for her family for New Years (mostly translations of religious text handwritten).

Christmas is a religious holiday celebrating the birth of The Christ. Nothing more or less. Humans have made it into this mass marketing giant. And for that we will pay.

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16 Jan 02 - 01:49 AM (#628839)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Jimmy C

Mrrzy , you responded to Conan that " the general response to Jimmy C's wasn't Let's ignore this, it's that it isn't relevant to THIS thread.". I was under the impression that the initial posting was about de-christianizing Christmas. My response was very plain. i.e. if you don't want to celebrate Christmas, then dont. Celebrate whatever you want but don't call it Christmas. I also don't see why you feel that you are getting Christmas "shoved down your throat". you have the freedom to ignore that which you don't want. What do you expect from a nation that is considered a christian country. I can't turn on the Tv without being inundated with ads for alcohol, cars, female companions, male companions,etc. Even driving the highways we are faced with billboards advertising hundreds of different products and services, all day in and day out 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 52 weeks a year, I won't even go into telemarketing. But in all these cases I have a choice to make, do I pay attention to them or do I ignore them. I would certainly do the same for Christmas if I was that way inclined. My point was that you cannot take Christ out of Christmas or else you would not have Christmas. You can't take the green out of March 17th or else it is not St. Patrick's day. If I wanted to have a famiy celebration without it being considered a Christmas celebration then I would not pick Dec 25th. Kids are off school at week-ends, summer vacations, March break etc, and other times during the year. I do agree with you about the commercialism of Christmas but I get away from it for a while by spending some quiet time in church reflecting on the true meaning of Christmas. I hope this does not come acroos as a sermon, it ios not my intention to preach, I just feel the answer is very simple, if you don't want to be a part of it , don't be a part of it ?.

Best wishes anyway.

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16 Jan 02 - 03:33 AM (#628857)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: GUEST,Mothglitter

Mrrzy, I suppose your family could turn Christmas into, like you say, a gathering/gift-giving day of family love. I kinda see the point from the people who said that no matter what, you're still celebrating Christmas. However, I think whatever the spirit of the occasion or intention of the person dictates what you're celebrating. Because actually, most scholars agree that Jesus was born in the summertime, so the medieval church, in its attempt to rid paganism, "transmuted" pagan holidays into Christian ones to ease the conversion for the common people. Yule incorporated elements like mistletoe because in Celtic belief, mistletoe is a symbol for fertility, a perfect thing to use in a celebration looking forward to Spring. Anyways, Yule was turned into Christmas. Same thing happened w/ All Souls' Day, Nov. 1, which was the first day of the Celtic year and had to do with celebrating dead ancestors and such. Even the word "Easter" is derived from the name of a Teutonic goddess of Springtime. Long story (sorry 'bout that) short, it doesn't matter. We Christians celebrate Christmas with Jesus in our hearts, and you and your family may celebrate it with love for each other in your hearts, and as a day off from work to all be together. Sing songs about winter and joy; "Jingle Bells" as someone mentioned already. Why not look up some old medieval or Renaissance songs about winter? Probably there are some that don't mention Christ. Top your star w/ a tree to symbolize lighting the way through the long, dark winter. And you shouldn't have to exclude Santa Clause. Sure, he was granted a sainthood by the church, but before that, he was just a man who gave gifts to the poor. Nothing religious about that. Terribly sorry for my long-winded rambling. ;) MOTH

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16 Jan 02 - 03:36 AM (#628859)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: GUEST,Mothglitter

Excuse me????? Top your STAR w/ TREE? Geez! I hate when my evil twin personality takes over!!!!! :) Well, I'm sleepy. You got the point! Don't hate me because I'm stupid. :)

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16 Jan 02 - 04:26 AM (#628867)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: katlaughing

Well said, MothGlitter.

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16 Jan 02 - 09:16 AM (#628927)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: SharonA

mothglitter (re: star and tree): LOL! How come you're not a member yet? The more senses of humor 'round here, the better. It kinda makes up for us stodgier types!

Jimmy C: you said: "Kids are off school at week-ends, summer vacations, March break etc, and other times during the year." Yes, of course that's true, but they often have sports or other activities scheduled for that free time, whereas Christmas is one of the very few days where such extracurricular stuff is virtually never a problem and it's safe to plan a big family get-together for that day. Also, the adults aren't always off work on weekends, and have to schedule vacations from work (and don't even get a March break!), whereas virtually all businesses schedule Christmas as a holiday. The exceptions include hospital workers, nursing home workers, public services such as police and fire departments, and convenience-store employees.

So the odds favor Christmas as among the best days to schedule a family gathering. Even if this were not the case for the general public, it apparently works out to be the ideal time for Mrrzy's family to do so!

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16 Jan 02 - 10:19 AM (#628955)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Mrrzy

Jimmy C, I quote you here: I also don't see why you feel that you are getting Christmas "shoved down your throat". you have the freedom to ignore that which you don't want. What do you expect from a nation that is considered a christian country. The reason I feel it's being shoved down my throat is that everywhere I go, there is Christian Christmas music, every show I watch has Christian Christmas commercials, my office does Christmas stuff and as I'm on the morale team, I actually have to help plan it (albeit that they allow me to voice my opposition, they then ignore it), were I to attempt to ignore this I'd have to hibernate. I don't see any Freedom From this stuff available. Also, it's the very fact that this country is CONSIDERED TO BE Christian that is why we continue to be attacked by these particular anti-Christians. But I have news for them, which I think you already know by how you phrased your post - THIS IS NOT NOT NOT NOT a Christian country! It was founded expressly to allow for ANY RELIGION (or none). In the early days of treaties with the Middle East, George Washington made it very clear that it was OK to be on our side because this was NOT a Christian nation. What burns me (hmmm, how could you tell?) is the ASSUMPTION that we are Christians, and considering us Christian no matter what we say/do. I once put "none" on a form under Religion while we were still overseas, only to have it CHANGED BY THE ADMINISTRATION to Protestant (as it was KNOWN that ALL Americans are Protestant). Needless to say, we (my parents and I) protested, probably just confirming their suspicions!

MMario, I TAKE the 26th off, it's not given by my firm. My sisters who work for the gubmint get it off, though, I think.

Mothglitter, I will resist with every cell in my body the notion that just because we celebrate whateverthe***, as Spaw said, ON Christmas Day, that we are then by definition celebrating Christmas. That's like saying if your birthday party is 2/14 you're really celebrating Valentine's Day, so I do not agree with that point. But I did like the idea of topping a star with a tree, you should have let that lie, hee hee!

SharonA, thanks for answering JimmyC about why the logistics, I wasn't going to go over all that again!

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16 Jan 02 - 11:18 AM (#628997)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Jimmy C

Mrrzy, We are exposed to lots of things and many types of music etc every day of the year, whether we want to or not. You can't even get put on hold on the telephone without hearing some kind of music. We also have the promotion of Valenties Day, St. Patrick's Day, Easter, Father's Day, Mother's Day, Secretary Day etc. do you feel these are being shoved down your throat ?. We have money that says "In God We Trust". As I said before we have all these things but we also have the freedom to ignore them if we so choose. I also find it hard to believe that out of 365 days a family cannot find at least one week-end to get together. As far as the christian country is concerned I do feel that the majority of the population consider themselves christian, whether they attend church or not. Did you notice how many people all over the world flocked to a church following the 11th September atrocity.

I don't care whether one is a christian or not, I am not here to convert anyone. I am a christian and get a little annoyed when chrisianity is being attacked at every opportunity when the easiest solution is to just ignore it and get on with your life. That's the way it is in some countries. It would be hard to live in Israel and not see signs of Judaism every day, or feel the presence of Allah in a Muslim country. If one lives in a predominately christian country you should expect christianity to be to the forefront at special times of the year.

Peace

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16 Jan 02 - 11:44 AM (#629011)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: SharonA

No problem, Mrrzy. I think Jimmy just forgot that some kids do other things besides go to school!

Yeah, that "Christian country" rhetoric is the kind of popular lie that gets the US attacked by fanatical-religious terrorists (not only those of the non-Christian persuasion but ALSO those Christians who think the country isn't Christian enough! Sorry, but I think of stuff like burning Harry Potter books as a form of terrorism).

You bring up an interesting point, though, Mrrzy, about Christian Christmas muzak and Christian Christmas commercials saturating the atmosphere. Naturally, the broadcasters of this stuff are doing it because it sells the product (be it the product on the store shelf or the one on TV). Hanukkah music would probably be less effective; even if the average American ear were used to hearing traditional middle-Eastern music (which, for my part, would drive me out of the stores), I understand that Hanukkah presents are supposed to be small – pencils and such – and retailers want to sell bigger-ticket items. And I'm not sure there even is such a thing as Ramadan music. Now, if someone were to write some schmaltzy, retailer-friendly tunes for the other end-of-December holidays, they might be included in the mix. Somehow, though, I don't think "I'm Dreaming of a White Kwanzaa" would go over well!

I'm afraid that I have to agree with Jimmy's point that the commercialization of Christmas (which, I assert, includes the muzak) should be treated like all other commercialization: pay attention to what's relevant to you and ignore the rest. When I see one of those TV commercials with the slyly-smiling doctor saying, "Buy Viagra because it'll help you men in bed", I ignore it because I, as a woman, am not about to take the product. By the same token, when I hear a song that says, "Let the world rejoice because Jesus was born", I ignore that because I, as a non-believer, am not about to take Jesus (as my savior).

As far as planning Christmas activities at the office as part of the morale team is concerned: in the immortal words of Super-Chicken, "you knew the job was dangerous when you took it!" If you find a solution to your family-gathering dilemma, perhaps it can be applied to the office get-together, too.

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16 Jan 02 - 11:56 AM (#629018)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: SharonA

P.S. – I'll grant you, some holidays are harder to ignore than others. Jimmy C mentions Mother's Day; that one's a little hard for me to ignore when it gets shoved down my throat, even though my mother's been deceased for almost four years now. Damned advertisers!

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16 Jan 02 - 12:01 PM (#629020)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: katlaughing

Of course it gets shoved down our throats and for this particular holiday, it starts before Halloween and goes solid 'til after New Year's Day. None of the others you've mentioned, JimmyC, get as much hype, for as long and generally do not grip the whole nation in a whirlwind of specific songs etc.

It used to rile me as much as it seems to Mrrzy, but, anymore, maybe because we do not do much, other than cook a nice meal and maybe put a few things on the Norfolk Island Pine, it seems almost like any other day. If the grandkids were closer, I'd probably do more, but it wouldn't be as *Christmas* per se.

A weekend is too short of a time for families to get together if they live long-distances. Why is that such a sticking point with you? My sisters drove 12 hours each way to visit over the winter holidays. It would never hadve worked out just for a weekend. My daughter, her husband and their boys would have had to come from over 2,000 miles, while my son and his SO would have had about a 20 hr drive. All distances too far, esp. with kids, for a lousy two day weekend, esp. when one considers the jobs and schools which they'd all have to return to on Monday morning!

As for people flocking to churches after 911; it wasn't just churches, it was temples, ashrams, synagogues, school auditoriums, etc. Also, just because someone felt moved to go to what is considered a sacred space to feel some commanality in the grief and shock, does not mean one adheres to the beliefs of any particular building's owners. Churches and such have a history of being traditional meeting places in times of great crises...nothing wrong with that, they usually were the largest structure in town, which could hold the most people, members of that denomination or not.

Mrrzy, hear you! I tried to put "none" on a religion question, once, in hospital. They insisted that I put something. Being young and not quite as sure/bold as I am now, I finally gave up and affiliated myself with the Episcopal Church, on their forms, because that is where my brother went!

If you think that is difficult, though, try going into a doctor's office and write in "adult" where it asks for your age. It really throws them off. I always tell them it's because I do not want them to have any preconceived notions of what my bod and mind should be doing. Some understand and deal with it, others just can't handle the concept.*BG*

Peace sounds good about right now,

kat

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16 Jan 02 - 12:10 PM (#629028)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: wysiwyg

Sigh........ so it turns into one of these "down the throat" threads after all. I'm sorry to see it. I'd love to let fly too, you know? Can't we... just decide not to? Don't most of us already know these ropes by now?

~Susan

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16 Jan 02 - 12:13 PM (#629029)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: wysiwyg

... and here is how the first post of the Part One thread ended: This is a real question to the Mudcat, not something intended to generate What is wrong with $mas diatribes... or such is my hope.

So.... maybe we could just keep that in mind?

~Susan

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16 Jan 02 - 12:27 PM (#629037)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: NicoleC

Jimmy,

I understand what you are trying to say, but it seems like you aren't seeing Mrrzy's point of view. It's not co-opting Christmas to celebrate family and love at the same time.

I celebrate Christmas, but *I* feel like Christmas is shoved down my throat.

Starting in September out come the Christmas decorations in the stores and if you don't honor Jesus by buying a lot of overpriced and underwanted merchandise, thar's sumthin' wrong with you. By and large Christmas as celebrated in the US is absolutely not a Christian celebration. Any holiday which glorifies greed and gluttony isn't about Christian principles, no matter how many tacky plastic nativity scenes that are for sale. (Or Jewish or Islamic principles either.) I agree that the other holiday's are just as hyped, but they haven't quite reached the months-long all-encompassing circus of greed that Christmas has.

Of course there are individuals and families who spend Christmas together with love and prayer in their hearts. I haven't met one yet, but I'm sure they are out there :)

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16 Jan 02 - 12:29 PM (#629042)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: SharonA

Okay, sounds good to me.

Just in case anyone feels the need to read more (somewhere else) about the commercialization of Christmas, try this thread: Song Challenge for the Festive Season

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16 Jan 02 - 12:32 PM (#629046)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: NicoleC

Oooops, you're right, Susan. Ignore my last post.

Instead try the Belief-o-matic Quiz at www.beliefnet.com

I'm a *Quaker*???

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16 Jan 02 - 12:35 PM (#629049)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: wysiwyg

I don't want to be right! *G* I just want whatever peace is possible.

~Susan

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16 Jan 02 - 12:44 PM (#629054)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Jerry Rasmussen

How About Peace on Earth, and Mudcat? Not dependent upon any diety. One of my sons is an Agnostic. He gets less irritated with the commericalization of Christmas than I do. Used to be, there was an unwritten code in my home town where no mention of Christmas was made in advertisements and stores until after Thanksgiving. Now, around here at least, they're putting in the first Christmas displays in AUGUST! Maybe we could all enjoy ourselves if they'd make it a law not to exchange gifts... just kidding. Man, that would knock the commericalism out of it in a hurry. I don't like to have something shoved down my throat, so I can empathize with non-Christians. I don't like to have commericalizsm shoved down my throat, so I empathize with all Christians. I've already received a request for a Game Boy Advance from a kid, for next year. I guess it din't occur to him that if I get him one and a game to play, it will cost me close to $150. Isn't that what Christmas is all about?

Ecch!!

I too make time away from all the Christmas Circus to think and pray about the birth of Christ and what than means to me... Even Christians need to get away from "Christmas" at Christmas.
Jerry

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16 Jan 02 - 12:45 PM (#629056)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Mrrzy

Where did that html come from in my last post? That italics going on was supposed to be a paragraph break. I'm retrying that part as it makes more sense the right way...

Oddly enough, I'm allowed to put None under religion when in hospitals here, but then I get several nursies in quick procession asking me what I really mean. Not to mention that one of the most helpful people in the whole place, during one long stay, was the hospital chaplain who just dropped by to chat every so often. I found myself not wanting to lean on her because she was the chaplain, then I decided that was too bigoted of me and since she was being so helpful, who was I to object to her job title.

But you know, after all this explaining the logistics, the more I think about it, the more I think that I want to keep it in the "dead of winter" (which I know isn't till Feb but emotionally that's almost Spring) to bring in the midwinter festival idea of celebrating the ken of the coming of Spring, which (as I've said earlier) is to me the thing worth celebrating WITH the family celebration thing. We aren't JUST celebrating getting together with all of us and giving presents; there is something about it being at the very end of the year that makes it, well, spiritual, if I may use that term in this company. Although I think it POSSIBLE that there may be a 3-day period we could all manage to take off, and if we didn't do it in Dec then we'd maybe get even more family, as one of my sisters goes to Tasmania for winter break and she and her daughter never make it to our celebration. But it wouldn't be the celebration I'm imagining if it left out the (my) reason for the evergreens.

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16 Jan 02 - 12:58 PM (#629067)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: NicoleC

Mrrzy, there's no reason why you can't all get together more than once a year. Anyone who can't make one could probably make the other. Call one "Mid-Winter" (or whatever) and the other a family reunion, maybe in late spring when the weather is perfect for an outdoor gathering.

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16 Jan 02 - 01:02 PM (#629071)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: GUEST,Mothglitter

Mrrzy, I was not saying that just because you celebrate on Dec. 25, it means you're celebrating Christmas. Someone ELSE in the discussion said that. I was AGREEING with you. I was just pointing out that whatever spirit with which you celebrate on Dec. 25 will dictate. Christians celebrate Dec. 25 with Christ in mind. You may celebrate it with winter festivities or family love, whatever you choose. Someone else posted that if you celebrate on Dec. 25 you're invariably celebrating Christmas...I just used this as an example and trying to point to the contrary. Just wanted to set the record straight. :) MOTH

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16 Jan 02 - 01:04 PM (#629072)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: GUEST,Mothglitter

Mrrzy, I was not saying that just because you celebrate on Dec. 25, it means you're celebrating Christmas. Someone ELSE in the discussion said that. I was AGREEING with you. I was just pointing out that whatever spirit with which you celebrate on Dec. 25 will dictate. Christians celebrate Dec. 25 with Christ in mind. You may celebrate it with winter festivities or family love, whatever you choose. Someone else posted that if you celebrate on Dec. 25 you're invariably celebrating Christmas...I just used this as an example and trying to point to the contrary. Just wanted to set the record straight. :) MOTH P.S. At Easter (a whole other discussion, he he;) you can top your egg w/ a basket.

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16 Jan 02 - 02:11 PM (#629113)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Mrrzy

Indeed, Mothglitter, and thanks for the clarif! Lessee, top your hearts with chocolate on Valentine's day, that works! Now, what about Mother's Day?

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16 Jan 02 - 02:16 PM (#629119)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: SharonA

Top a corsage with Mom?

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16 Jan 02 - 06:26 PM (#629299)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Ebbie

All this, for the first time, makes me feel that the schools are correct in currently not celebrating with 'Christmas' concerts or 'Christmas' vacation or 'Christmas' programs. Instead they are presenting 'Winter' concerts and programs and taking a 'Winter Break'. If people are this uptight about Christmas, then it should be kept in the religious community.

On the other hand, Mrrzy, you are complaining about a Christian>\ Christmas?? What are you expecting: a Muslim Christmas? Seriously.

Ebbie

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16 Jan 02 - 09:05 PM (#629387)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Lepus Rex

Heh-heh, why not a Muslim x-mas? They like him too.

---Lepus Rex

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16 Jan 02 - 11:54 PM (#629463)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: wysiwyg

Mrrzy, there were some good ideas and thoughts in these old threads:

Coping with holiday phobia

'Secular' Holiday Songs

Human Christmas

Pagan versions of Christmas carols site

Favourite Christmas songs (non-religious

non traditional Christmas songs

~S~

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17 Jan 02 - 12:52 AM (#629503)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: GUEST,Katy

Ebbie says: "What are you expecting: a Muslim Christmas? Seriously."

Good question Ebbie.

1. The title of the original thread said, "De-Christianizing Christmas" You can't . It is a Christian holiday. Create another holiday, yes, around the same time, using whatever customs please you and honor your beliefs, but don't ask people to de-christianize a Christian holiday.

2. The constant reminders of this Christian celebration cause a lot of annoyance and/or pain for people who do not embrace those beliefs. True enough. And sadly so. Most who desire to celebrate the true meaning of Christmas in the Christian sense of the word, find this August through December bombardment extremely offensive as well. Unfortunately, the merchants have decided this is their big chance, and on and on it goes and earlier and earlier it gets every year.

3. Let us not try to de-Christianize a Christian celebration or strip ANY holiday of its intended meaning, whether it be religious or otherwise. Let us instead, be sensitive to the fact that everyone does not share the same beliefs and try to understand why their celebrations are important to them. In honoring one another's diversity, we'll have so much more to celebrate. And we'll all be better for it.

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17 Jan 02 - 03:42 AM (#629539)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Steve Parkes

The council in Birmingham, England, tried to promote somehting they called "Winterval" (i.e. Winter Festival) last year, without success. I think it was an attempt to get Muslims and Sikhs to spend more money in December, although it may have been inspired by a genuine desire to draw the whole community closer in the spirit of the season.

Steve

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17 Jan 02 - 06:12 AM (#629587)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Dani

Steve, that's great! I think you've hit it.

Thread titles and well-founded cynicism aside, though, Mrrzy's got a darn good point, and thinking this over a lot the past few days brought me to considering this:

What REALLY has me stumped is how to sort out EASTER! A much more Christian holiday, really at the heart of Christianity. But start pulling the threads out of THIS fabric. They didn't bother hardly changing the NAME for this one, for cryin' out loud. I've been able to work out the Christmas stuff, because honoring someone's birth works out for me, but the RESURRECTION?

Have greater, cooler,wiser minds than my own worked on this one?

Dani

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17 Jan 02 - 07:22 AM (#629597)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Jerry Rasmussen

Good Post, Katy. I think this thread can go on into part eleven, because it's basically an irresolveable problem. Gets down to the individual in the long run. I have a cousin who is an atheist who gathers his whole family together to celebrate Christmas at his house. He has summer cookouts and family picnics there, too. He treats them all the same. He just celebrates the non-spiritual aspect of Christmas. I have another family member who feels that he'd be a hypocrite joing in holding hands when we're saying grace, so he doesn't. And everyone respects him for his honesty. I guess that I see very little about celebrating "Christmas" in this country that has anything to do with Christ's birth. Maybe you're rebelling against the commercialism, Mrrzy, because I sure don't see much spiritualism to rebel against. Thanks for starting this thread is such a generous, non-offensive way.
Jerry

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17 Jan 02 - 09:07 AM (#629657)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Mrrzy

My family doesn't DO Easter, I guess, so it hasn't bothered me as much, but yeah!

You're all right, bad thread name. What I'm trying to do is find a way to celebrate the secular aspects (love of family, presents, evergreens) at ChristmasTIME without the Christian aspects, which ought to be avoidable since they are, or appear to be, rather independent of the religious stuff. that is, families exist, presents exist or can exist, and evergreens exist, as do seasons. I'm glad though that people are enjoying this one without anybody getting on their high horse...

But to clarify again, I'm not, actually, against the commercialism. I'm against the religious tones OF the commercialism. If it were frankly commercial, that would be fine - NON-Christian Christmas carols, NON-Christian Christmas commercials, yada yada yada, would be LESS offensive to me. I don't object to marketing being in my face, I work in marketing. What I can't stand is the underlying message of the thing being marketed being Good In God's Eyes or something. I mind the USE of religious music in stores to sell stuff - but if the music were secular, it wouldn't get to me as badly. If we could go all the way to commercial and LEAVE the religion, that would be OK with me.

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17 Jan 02 - 10:18 AM (#629685)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: GUEST,Katy

Isn't that whole idea of marketing? Using that which is meaningful to people to get them to buy? The Christian music, message, etc, IS meaningful to people because it is a Christian celebration. Manipulative to USE this? Yes! Does it work? YES! Is the use/abuse of the basis of the Christian religion offensive to lots of folks, Christian and non-Christian alike? You bet it is!

It's important to remember that the musak isn't selling the religion, it is using/abusing it. There is a big difference.

The musak actually serves another, probably unintended, purpose. It reminds folks of the real reason for the celebration. It gives people pause (if they have the time to pause with all that has been done to the holiday) to consider that which is meaningful about the season. For the Christians, of course it is the remembrance of the birth of Christ. And there is much good in that.

For the non-Christians, it is the feeling of love and family and sharing of gifts that has the greater meaning. There is much good in that.

Our common ground is the true goodness that is born of this holiday, whether motivated by the embracing of Christian belief or not. Let us meet there.

And then, let us learn more about the deeply meaningful celebrations of other religions. Let us find the good there and celebrate it! That is not to say anyone needs to buy into another's religious philosophies, but let's seek out the good and celebrate WITH one another! There is much to celebrate! Let's find our common ground. Katy

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17 Jan 02 - 01:45 PM (#629741)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Mrrzy

Well, I actually mostly agree with Guest Katy (join if you aren't just temporarily a Guest, please!) - except for I'd really rather learn about the deeply meaningful celebrations of other PEOPLE, and ignore the religion as irrelevent to all the good things you're talking about. The "season" of midwinter celebration predates Christ by millennia, and the "real reason" of the season should not be limited to the Christian reason, even if that is the real reason for celebrating CHRISTMAS AS A CHRISTIAN holiday. It's REAL pain that there isn't another word for the same celebration of all that good stuff, love amongst fellow peoples, peace on Earth and kinddess (oops, almost typoed kinkiness - go figure!) abounding, happening at the end of the year, and NOT RELIGIOUS. Like Christmas/Lovemas, or does the -mas ending HAVE to mean religion/mass? Can it mean Ritual, in which case we're OK as anyone can have rituals?

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28 Jan 02 - 11:21 AM (#637133)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Murray MacLeod

I discovered This interesting link while checking out something else.

I make no comment on the etymological accuracy of the claims therein.

Murray

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28 Jan 02 - 11:48 AM (#637146)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: wysiwyg

... where the homepage proclaims, A National Committee to Counter the Bigots Who Want To Sow Discord Among Peoples -- Since 1984!

Seems to me it sows a bit of discord, itself, whatever the accuracy of their view on the facts.

~Susan

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28 Jan 02 - 02:40 PM (#637244)
Subject: RE: MORE ON de-Xing Xmas - continued
From: Mrrzy

I like that site! Didn't seem to be SOWING any discord...

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