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08 Feb 02 - 10:43 PM (#645751) Subject: Help with hornpipes From: NicoleC I don't know if anyone can possibly put this into words, but here goes... I have the basic celtic hornpipe rhythm down, but the occasional quarter notes really just knock me off and I can't quite get the feel of them. So I went through my CDs and looked for hornpipes, but it only made things worse. Instead of playing the quarter notes as quarter notes, they sound kinda shortened, and almost as if their rhythm was a function of phrasing (if I'm using that term correctly) instead of actual note values. Incidentally, I'm working on the Concertina Hornpipe (fiddle), in 4/4 time, and it's mostly written as eighth notes, even though that's not really how it's played. Off to the internet. I found this definition: "The numerous hornpipes of the 17th and 18th centuries are usually in 3/2 time, but today are in 2/4 and 4/4 time. Original hornpipes in 2/4 and 4/4 meter are played more slowly than the reel and in a slightly altered rhythm which is expressed as follows:" The example which followed specified 4/4 time, but didn't include 4 beats in the measure... grr! 1/8 - 1/16 - 1/8 - 1/16 --- 1/8 - 1/16 - 1/8 - 1/16 So now I'm lost. What am I supposed to do when I hit those darn quarter notes? Anyone feel up to taking a whack at this? My fiddle teacher didn't seem to be able to verbalize it or notate it, and of course I don't remember what he did when he played through it... |
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08 Feb 02 - 11:46 PM (#645789) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: DonMeixner When I was learning the Hammered Dulcimer it was explained to me that the Hornpipe in North America is played two ways. Both as a Hornpipe and as Reel. This is because of a homoginization of the music by fiddlers who found the lift in Hornpipe not as easy to play as the straight reel. The trick as I recall was explained to me is in the dotted notes that give the horn pipe the lilt. Don |
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09 Feb 02 - 02:10 AM (#645844) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: NicoleC Yeah, there's a couple of dotted quarter notes in there, too. I was working up to those :) I figured if I figured out what to do with the extra time which still keeping the hornpipe rhythm, it would apply to the other longer notes as well (at least in my head). |
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09 Feb 02 - 02:43 AM (#645852) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: georgeward The problem is that there's no really tidy way to write hornpipes that are to be played as hornpipes (Don's right about the many "hornpipes" that end up being reels). the triplets that find their way into hornpipes are really the key. The triplet feel is what provides the "lift". But to write a whole tune in triplets (mostly a series of a quarter note and eighth-note pairs with triplet brackets above them) is tedious to do and messy to look at. Personally, I think the worst solution is the dotted-eighth/sixteenth pairs. Its equally messy. And just flat wrong, if you play it as written (making the dotted eighths long enough and the sixteenths short enough). So we most often wind up with straight eigth notes. If you play them as written, wrong again! You get reel feel. You just have to know that if it is a hornpipe you need to stress the first note of each eighth-note pair a bit and shorten the second some. When your actual triplets fit in, so that the whole thing flows smoothly, you're doing it right. Analogous to playing with a swing feel, really. You can't do justice to that in written notes either, without getting too detailed to make a clean score. So you write something like "swing feel" at the top and get players who've learned what you mean through experience. So the answer to your original question, Nicole, is that for a hornpipe (as we use the term in modern times) a triplet (composed of eighth notes) equals two eighths played with a "triplety" feel equals one quarter note. And the same triplety feel underlies the quarter note that underlies the other two. Count "one-and-a, two-and-a, etc." under them all. George |
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09 Feb 02 - 05:52 AM (#645886) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: GUEST,Pied Piper In the sessions I play at in the Manchester (England) area there seem to be two basic hornpipe rythms one swingy, triplety, and the other not.The foremer can be accomponied on the Bodhran in a similar rythm to jigs and the latter not.Perhaps some hornpipes could be written in 12/8 time to make them clearer(I've seen Strathspeys written as jigs in some collectoins).If you have music software on your computer (Cubase VST,Cakewalk etc)it's possible to use "gruve quantise" to change the time in increments till it sounds right.if you then go to the score display you'll see why hornpipes(and meny other traitional tunes)cannot be written down accurately without bieng to difficult to read. It all comes down to feel in the end so keep listening and playing regularely and you'll soon get it. Good luck Pied piper |
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09 Feb 02 - 08:34 AM (#645923) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: The Shambles The music is not on the page, it is in the air. The key is just to go where they are played and play right along. How you write it down is another matter. You can try record a wonderful sunset you may have experienced in words but it will never convey the real thing.
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09 Feb 02 - 05:50 PM (#646178) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: michaelr Could be wrong here, but it seems to me that to get the swing in hornpipes you want to think of them as more like a fast jig. Michael |
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09 Feb 02 - 07:03 PM (#646206) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: phil h I'm with Pied Piper, when playing Bodhran I've noticed that at some 'English' sessions you can play triplets (like a jig rythm) & it fits perfectly with the way hornpipes are played whereas at 'Irish' sessions the long note in each half of the bar is never as much as double the length of the short one. Phil |
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09 Feb 02 - 09:01 PM (#646275) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: NicoleC Thanks guys. I still can't seem to resolved my trouble with tripping over those longer notes and losing the rhythm. It'll probably just happen one day :) |
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09 Feb 02 - 09:17 PM (#646280) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: GUEST,greg stephens youve got a bit of a problem if youre looking at sheet music.some hornpipes go better one way, some the other. does that make sense? the first note of a pair is obviously longer than the second but just how much longer is up to you.play for a clog dancer gives you one feel, play for listening gives you another.depends on the tune.depends on you you. play fast they evenout.play slow they could go either way.if you dont come from lancashire you ,might have problems. but that doesnt only apply to hornpipes greg stephens |
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09 Feb 02 - 10:33 PM (#646321) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: Peter K (Fionn) Alas I still think in terms of quavers, semiquavers etc, and I'm not sure what the starting point is in this hierarchy (breve, semibreve?) for breaking notes down into quarter notes, eighth notes etc. Anyway, to keep it simple, I'll say it this way: the basic 4/4 rhythm is 1,2,3,4, 1,2,3,4, etc with 1 and 3 accented more than 2 and 4; and 1, for that matter, accented more than 3. Reels and hornpipes typically fit two notes to each beat to produce 1-and 2-and 3-and 4-and, in which the ands get less emphasis than the numbers to which I have linked them by hyphen. In reels, the numbers and their corresponding ands are of equal time value; the distinction between them is just one of emphasis or accent. In hornpipes there seems to be wide discretion, according to region, local custom, the origin of the tune etc about how each pair of notes is handled. This discretion ranges from reel-type distinction beetween the numbers and the ands, though more pronounced, through to giving the "number note" 50 per cent more time, and the "and note" 50 per cent less. It is the latter extreme that I am accustomed to for hornpipes in Ireland. It means each pair of notes is played (in my language) as "dotted-quaver, semi-quaver". Sometimes the musical notation actually expresses it this way; sometimes the notes are just written as straight quavers. A triplet is three notes of equal length fitted into the time that would normally be allocated to just two of those notes. The notation is a phrase-curve linking the three notes, with a figure 3 over or under it. In hornpipes, many a crotchet beat that would normally be given to two quavers is instead taken up with a triplet, which is expressed as three semi-quavers and notated as described above. Reels should go at a faster lick than hornpipes, and strathspeys are broadly the same as hornpipes but with the emphasis reversed between the "number note" and the "and note." And now perhaps I should apologise to anyone who is still awake. For my part I seem to have fallen asleep some time ago....... |
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09 Feb 02 - 11:33 PM (#646351) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: M.Ted Not that I play much of this, but I have played a bit, and can affirm Fionn's point about wide discretion based on regions, etc. Best to pick on style that you like, (hopefully on that people around you play) and listen with that, to the exclusion of the others, til you have the feeling--It is all feel-- |
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10 Feb 02 - 06:00 AM (#646426) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: The Shambles I used to think that I could play and had no trouble with Hornpipes. After reading Fionn's post I am now not sure I can............*Smiles*
It certainly may help others though.
I suppose if one to write and describe in detail all the brain messages, changes of balance and muscle movements involved the process of walking, it too may sound an impossible task? However in practice, after you have placed one foot forward, walking does tend to make a little more sense. |
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10 Feb 02 - 06:02 AM (#646427) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: The Shambles And before very long, you will be running.......... |
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10 Feb 02 - 06:36 AM (#646430) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: RichM Listen to well recorded hornpipes by a fiddler you admire. Better still, think like a blind fiddler. I play irish music-though not fiddle-with fiddlers who are sometimes lost without the written music in front of them. Really, hornpipes are part of the folk tradition. Don't depend on your eye to play, music is for the ear, and from the ear.
Rich |
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10 Feb 02 - 11:26 AM (#646529) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: Mr Red As a ceilidh dancer it is obvious when the hornpipe is played well, and vice cersa. Try dancing to a few with the correct kickstep and I reckon that will give you a new angle and insite. Let us know. |
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10 Feb 02 - 12:29 PM (#646566) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: Kaleea Shambles has hit the nail on the head. Type all we might, music is an aural and quite etheric "out there somewhere" concept & not a concrete kind of thing. One has to hear &/or feel music. It may be written on a page, but you must either listen to, or as Mr. Red says, move to the music to understand it. Why don't you get/borrow/look up on the www/etc some recordings of some pipe bands, especially the ones which are from pipe contests where there will be found amazingly different kinds of rhythms, and you then must get up & move to the music, or at least tap, clap, sway or whatever it takes to get the "feel" of the different types of hornpipes. We keep forgetting that most these music forms were all about dance when they were originally used. |
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10 Feb 02 - 12:45 PM (#646573) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: open mike the best way to get the feel of a horn pipe is to go out on the open sea and feel the rolling of the waves--that is what is involved here--the feel of the thing!! that dotted note is like an accent mark--BUMP-da, BUMP-da. It is a pity that sonme folks smoothe it out and play it like a reel-there are plenty of reels or as in the song Maire's Wedding--plenty ale and plenty meal, plenty toes to tap and reel?? or something like that... |
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10 Feb 02 - 04:52 PM (#646740) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: Peter K (Fionn) Yes, Shambles, some people can sort out hornpipes (and walking) for themselves, but some can't. (Stroke victims for instance.) I've no idea why Nicola found some aspects of traditional music confusing, but many of us have done, me included. If I've said only what Nicola knew already, I owe an apology to her, but not to you. I wouldn't presume to tell you how to play a hornpipe as your reputation precedes you *G* |
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10 Feb 02 - 07:11 PM (#646840) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: GUEST I have a lot of experience with helping stroke victims, which is exactly why I used the walking example.
They need help to do what we, and they used to do without thinking. Writing down in words (or on a stave) exactly how to walk, would be little help and make it sound impossible.
I was not knocking your explanation in any way at all, for those who approach music through the page I am quite sure it made a lot of sense and be most helpful.
For both problems confidence is also a big factor. The methods for instilling that will vary with the individual. I have the exact opposite problem with hornpipes. Every time I write a tune, it will end up being another 'bloody' hornpipe, if I don't make a concious effort to stop it!
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10 Feb 02 - 10:19 PM (#647002) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: GUEST,leeneia Nicole, are you still here? How can you say "I have the basic celtic hornpipe rhythm down" when there are two different hornpipe rhythms in circulation? One is 2/4 and one (older) is 3/2. If you have been working on a tune in 3/2, perhaps the quarter notes that are bothering you occur at the end of a measure and should be treated like pickup notes to the phrase that follows. To test this, think of a phrase that fits the notes and give the pesky quarter note an unimportant word like "the" or "when" and see what happens. |
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10 Feb 02 - 11:11 PM (#647036) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: NicoleC Yes, I'm still here :) "How can you say "I have the basic celtic hornpipe rhythm down" when there are two different hornpipe rhythms in circulation?" Quite simple. I only knew of one of them :D The tune is written in 4/4, and is written apparently nothing like it should actually sound -- which I knew -- but I'm finding out it's even worse than I thought. In order to keep up the rhythm, I'm kinda slowing down the rhythm when I hit the quarter notes and dotted quarter notes. Come to think of it, I think they all fall as unaccented notes. It's okay, I guess, because at least I don't lose my place, but it doesn't quite sound right either.
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11 Feb 02 - 11:53 AM (#647317) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: radriano To get the feel of the syncopation of a hornpipe try this example. Take a simple melody like Harvest Home which is usually written as straight eighth notes. The first and third notes of every bar are played as if dotted and every other note is therefore shortened. This means that every second and forth note is connected to the note it follows, hence that bumpy feel. My daughter is a step dancer and this really all comes together when you see how a hornpipe is danced. |
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11 Feb 02 - 02:48 PM (#647421) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: M.Ted Might help to name the tune that troubles you--there might be better notation about-- |
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11 Feb 02 - 03:13 PM (#647442) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: Jon Freeman I don't know if this will help or add to the confusion but I have just had a look at a MIDI of the Golden Eagle I had done in "bouncy" style and sounded close enough for my ear. The ratio I appear to have used for the longer note to the shorter note is 5/8 to 3/8 (dotted notation would give 6/8 to 2/8). Jon |
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11 Feb 02 - 03:29 PM (#647461) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: NicoleC M.Ted - That is the name of it "Concertina Hornpipe." Perhaps it also lives under another name? |
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11 Feb 02 - 03:32 PM (#647462) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: GUEST,leeneia Is the copy you have from a knowledgeable (sp) person or from a dubious source? Maybe it was an old hornpipe (or even some other dance form) and the transcriber tried to force it into 4/4 time. Stranger things have happened. If a tune is written nothing like it should sound, then something is wrong. Traditional music just isn't that strange. |
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11 Feb 02 - 03:35 PM (#647467) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: Jon Freeman I have put a couple of bars of Cakewalks interpetation of the score for the MIDI I mentioned here. The actual MIDI is here. Nicole, have a look at this example, it may help give you some idea why you don't find hornpipes written as they sound. Jon |
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11 Feb 02 - 05:02 PM (#647540) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: NicoleC Thanks for the visual, Jon! That's about what I figured it would look like, and it's a darn good thing it DIDN'T when my teacher handed it to me or I would have never dared attempt it :) I don't feel too bad, since that's more or less what I'm attempting to sound like. ("Attempting" being the operative word here.) For some reason, I don't have trouble with the triplets -- they just seem to fit right in. Maybe those pesky longer notes are just plain wrong, and shouldn't be that long? If not, I'm sure I'll hear all about it at my lesson Wednesday :D I couldn't tell you the original source, but it's out of a fiddle instruction book, and my teacher just xeroxed a page for me. (We decided to take a break from Americana for a while.) Many, many thanks for all of ya'll's input and attempting to tackle this! |
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11 Feb 02 - 08:18 PM (#647723) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: Jon Freeman Nicole, I'm glad it looks to have helped. That, as I'm sure you have gathered is just one view point/ interpretation of a tune and there is no single correct way of playing a hornpipe - at least when playing in sessions or playing solo/ as a group - I would suspect playing a set tune for a dancer(s) would be a completely different matter. My way, when I play in sessions is having my idea of how I want to play the tune but that can be modified depending on who is in the session, how they play, who maybe leading the tune, even the mood of the session, etc. I am no expert by any means, I am not a dot reader (although I know enough to sometimes use notation - including software) and although competent enough to feel reasonably comfortable in most sessions I go to, am no lead player... Just saying that to qualify what I'm about to say as I am not qualified!... Try to listen to the music and join in with others, remember approaches can be different and in time, it will make some sense and become good fun and it will all come together at the same time... I hope I'm making sense on that. Jon |
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11 Feb 02 - 09:16 PM (#647758) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: NicoleC LOL! I'm not at the "joining in" stage yet. When the cat stops hiding under the bed when I practice... well maybe then we'll discuss letting anyone else hear me :) |
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11 Feb 02 - 09:48 PM (#647772) Subject: RE: Help: Help with hornpipes From: Jon Freeman Whatever Nicole, enjoy - maybe the cat will in time but ours still hide from me and I go out playing - seriously its good if you have the chance at any level. I noticed you mentioned triplets before. As I indicated, I don't know the real rights or wrongs - just how tunes sound to me... but in the MIDI above (sound file - I didn't copy that much of the score), I used "proper" triplets which sounded fine to me - there was no adjusting of note durations on my Cakewalk attempt for those. Jon |
