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21 Feb 02 - 01:15 PM (#654740) Subject: Musicians, when did they peak From: tandrink An interesting thing came up in "Earl Scruggs and Friends" thread, and rather than thread creep I thought I would start this new thread. Someone (I believe it was Rick) mentioned that he wasn't that crazy about Earl's new stuff cause it just wasn't as electricifying as the music he made in the late 40's - early 50's. In essence, that is when Earl peaked. What I'd like to discuss is opinions of when other artists peaked. For example: Dylan - some would say he peaked with Free Wheelin'. Others would say Blond on Blond. Or possibly even Time Out Of Mind. Dylan's kinda tough, but when do you think other blues and folk players have hit their peaks? |
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21 Feb 02 - 01:18 PM (#654746) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: catspaw49 Whenever I liked them the most is when they peaked. Your mileage may vary. Spaw |
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21 Feb 02 - 01:24 PM (#654749) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: McGrath of Harlow The really good 'uns get better and better, with other things that are more important taking the place of the things they can't do any more. |
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21 Feb 02 - 01:27 PM (#654752) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: Clinton Hammond I think I peeked at about 17 or 18... but I didn't like what I saw... So I've had my eyes closed ever since... ;-) |
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21 Feb 02 - 01:28 PM (#654754) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: tandrink Sounds like you guys don't want to play along. I'm not trying to be judgemental. And definitely not trying to discredit anybody's musical talents. Anything put out by legendary artists (like Earl or Dylan) is going to be better than most other stuff that's out there. Just thought this would rouse some interesting debate. |
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21 Feb 02 - 01:37 PM (#654759) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: Clinton Hammond Well... John Allen Cameron is playing my local this weekend... Now I don't know exactly when he peaked, but I'm pretty certain it was before I was born... Kinda the same way I wish Gordon Lightfoot would just stop... please... |
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21 Feb 02 - 01:37 PM (#654760) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: UB Ed I generally peak during the last three songs of the first set... |
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21 Feb 02 - 01:42 PM (#654764) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: Steve Latimer tandrink, Tough one. I think that it may not be so much as when did they peak, but when were we first floored by them. Earl, who along with Bill Monroe & Lester Flatt created a brand new Musical genre that made people stand up and take notice. The Stanleys more than anyone of their generation perfected Bluegrass harmonies. Again, it was new and exciting. To get off topic a bit, I think that Hendrix's later studio stuff was much better than his first album, but we remember Foxey Lady and Hey Joe more than some of the later stuff, only because it forever changed the way that everyone, Jimi included, played. Gene Krupa was electrifying with Goodman. Again he was a great drummer for the rest of his life, but it must have been something to have heard him drive Goodman's Orchestra in the 30's.
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21 Feb 02 - 02:02 PM (#654772) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: catspaw49 Tandrink, that was a serious answer. It's like asking for say, Dylan's best album. What really enters into it is what we like or dislike, not necessarily anything that can be objectively viewed. Spaw |
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21 Feb 02 - 02:05 PM (#654774) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: M.Ted It depends a lot on what you are talking about--many performers develop their best stage show after they have spent their time on the charts--I saw Isaac Hayes do one of the best shows I've ever seen, years after his recording career had bottomed out, and when, due to bad press from his legal and financial troubles, a lot of people thought of him as kind of a joke--On the other hand, I saw Robert Palmer at the peak of his chart success, and it was nothing to write home about-- If my memory serves me, Merle Travis (May his name ever shine like a star in the Heavens!) reached his greatest popularity as a stage many years after he had done the bulk of his recording and writing work--"craft" entertainers, the one's who develop and cultivate a skill, like playing guitar or singing, tend to get better as the years go by, regardless of the status of their "career", personality entertainers-- |
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21 Feb 02 - 02:10 PM (#654777) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: tandrink I'll be more specific. What album do you think marked the peak of a musicians career. This is strictly opinion. For example, I think Springsteen may have peaked when he made Nebraska, and that is probably his least successful album commercially. Now, someone else may think that "Darkness On The Edge Of Town" was his best. Others may go for the more commerical "Born In The USA". None of us would be wrong. We might offer insight into our choices, but this is a poll strictly based on opinion. Nothing else.
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21 Feb 02 - 02:45 PM (#654792) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: Lonesome EJ I think we sometimes confuse youthful energy and exuberance with talent and insight. Hendrix's initial recordings had all of the first two, but I believe his talent was maturing, and he died before he could open yet another set of doors. And then there's Clapton, who has "peaked" and "vallied" numerous times since he first burst onto the scene. I think he is at his peak right now, at least as a blues guitarist, combining talent with discriminating taste. Dylan peaked early as a poet, although in his latest album he's exploring some tongue-in-cheek lyric territory that he's avoided lately. I also like his addition of acoustic folk instruments and his hot back-up group which is reminiscent of Robbie, Levon and the lads. Spaw is pretty close to the truth, though. A lot of these guys will never come back up to that early standard they set when their youthful brashness was matched by our own. |
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21 Feb 02 - 03:07 PM (#654799) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: Rustic Rebel I could look at Bonnie Raite and think she was at her peak back in the seventies when she was doing a lot of blues. Then when she started doing all that pop stuff I lost intest in her through the 80's and most of the 90's. Now I believe she has found more of her blues roots again and in her prime and quite possibly a peak. Although to say any living musician is at their peak is really a hard call, because who knows what's coming next? Rustic |
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21 Feb 02 - 03:17 PM (#654803) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: Bobert The ol' bobert sees this peak think like beauty... it's in the eyes of the beholder. For you Springsteen peaked with "Born in the USA" or "Darkness on the Edge of Town". As for me, having known Bruce in the late 60's and booking him at a club I was managing, those two songs don't do a thing fir me. I like a lot of his stuff on the "Lucky Town" album which I think was his best albums. But albums don't tell the entire story because the recording companies are after profits and marketable middle of the road music that fits in their circle. And music style is another variable. Old rock n' rollers are thought to be past their prime early in life but bluesmen and jazzmen just get better. As a musican and songwriter, unless a pysical disability creeps in the prevents me from playing music and writing then the concept of peaking is like a square peg and a round hole. Just won't happen. It's only when one thinks of music as a product, rather than a process, that one can comprehend the concept of peaking. Unfortunately, many musicans have succumbed to that assembly-line/ been-there-done-that trap. And it is a trap, make no bones about it, because it robs them of something that used to be fun, and spiritual that became a chore. The music industry is littered with these poor folks... That's just this ol' hillbillies' opinion... Bobert
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21 Feb 02 - 03:19 PM (#654805) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: McGrath of Harlow Bob Copper is 87, and he's probably better than ever these days. Martin Carthy at 60 or so is a craftier performer and a more accomplished musician tha he was forty years ago. Ewan MacColl showed no signs of peaking when he went and died on us.
That's what's special about folk music. Not that that isn't just as true of some people in other musics. What gets in the way of it is people trying to keep repeating what they were doing when they got noticed all those years ago. I don't mean singing the same songs, traditional singers always do that, I mean trying to be their own clones. |
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21 Feb 02 - 03:19 PM (#654807) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: Bobert The ol' bobert sees this peak think like beauty... it's in the eyes of the beholder. For you Springsteen peaked with "Born in the USA" or "Darkness on the Edge of Town". As for me, having known Bruce in the late 60's and booking him at a club I was managing, those two songs don't do a thing fir me. I like a lot of his stuff on the "Lucky Town" album which I think was his best albums. But albums don't tell the entire story because the recording companies are after profits and marketable middle of the road music that fits in their circle. And music style is another variable. Old rock n' rollers are thought to be past their prime early in life but bluesmen and jazzmen just get better. As a musican and songwriter, unless a pysical disability creeps in the prevents me from playing music and writing then the concept of peaking is like a square peg and a round hole. Just won't happen. It's only when one thinks of music as a product, rather than a process, that one can comprehend the concept of peaking. Unfortunately, many musicans have succumbed to that assembly-line/ been-there-done-that trap. And it is a trap, make no bones about it, because it robs them of something that used to be fun, and spiritual that became a chore. The music industry is littered with these poor folks... That's just this ol' hillbillies' opinion... Bobert
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21 Feb 02 - 03:32 PM (#654812) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: Bobert Opps, can't get used to earthlink. Ya turn your back fir a minute and it disconnects you and.... nevermind... ol' bobert doin' the best he can... sorry to those who read the second post all the way thru before discovering it was a repeat... |
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21 Feb 02 - 03:36 PM (#654816) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: Lonesome EJ Good points, McGrath and bobert. The Rolling Stones are the ultimate example of a band that peaked artistically thirty years ago, and are only in it for the money. They are either a corporation, an institution, or an abomination depending on your level of tolerance. Roger McGuinn is an opposite example. He peaked in rocknroll early, and now has devoted himself to studying and preserving his first love...traditional music. |
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21 Feb 02 - 03:55 PM (#654824) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: tandrink Let me start off by saying that I believe musicians are amazing. Someone who can take a box of wood and wire or some other instrument and create something so emotional seems barley possible. Yet, there are musicians out there who do just that, every day. That being said, I just don't think most of you are understanding the spirit of the question I first posted. Spaw, for instance, argues that a musicians peak is the when he liked them most. Well, then why not tell us about one of the musicians you like and what they have done in their career that you liked most. That's all I'm after. For instance, I just started taking guitar lessons with a teacher who idolizes Chet Atkins. I happen to like Chet Atkins as a guitarist, but don't know his work all that well. If someone here would say "Chet's best work, in my opinion, was done .............." maybe that would give me a good starting point to discover more of Chet's work (and in someones opinion) his best work. Everyone seems to agree or argue that 'peaking' is just a matter or opinion...but getting anyone to give such an opinion is difficult. We seem to rather discuss the essence of the question than attempt to answer it. This isn't a philosophical question, just trying to get some good opinions on some good music. |
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21 Feb 02 - 04:02 PM (#654829) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: Rick Fielding Fabulous question Tandrink. Personally (and this ain't a joke) I think I played my best at about age twenty five. I'm MUCH more knowledgable now, and probably smoother, but back then I had great enthusiasm and an adventuresome streak. I've heard tapes from that period, and other than new chords and a few more runs....THAT'S how I play now. I saw Cat Stevens in concert, right about his third album, and my Gawd that guy was good. By the fourth album he started repeating himself. Same with randy Newman. He STILL writes good songs, but those amazing chords aren't a surprise anymore. Remember the intro to "Short People"? Earl Scruggs says he was completely formed at age 16. By the mid fifties he was playing things (Cripple Creek, Dear Ol' Dixie, Foggy Mt. etc) for the millionth time. Still great...but not the same. I remember the first time I saw the Beatles....WOW! But they claimed that by the time they played on Ed Sullivan they were already in decline. It probably depends on how emotional your reaction to the music was the first time you heard it. Rick |
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21 Feb 02 - 04:41 PM (#654858) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: John MacKenzie A couple of people piqued at Stony Stratford!!*BG*.;-{)> Failte.....Giok |
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21 Feb 02 - 05:07 PM (#654872) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: Jerry Rasmussen I think of someone like Mississippi John Hurt. As far as I'm concerned, he just kept getting better. If he were alive today, he'd probably be EVEN better. When do you think Doc Watson peaked? Or will he ever? Maybe it's the musicians who stay grounded in the tradition who can stay at a high level, or even continue to get better because they're playing music that doesn't follow momentary fads. Jerry |
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21 Feb 02 - 05:54 PM (#654899) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: Herga Kitty Tandrink I think McGrath hit it on the head - and there's a difference between musicians and singers, and between technique and emotion. There are a lot of young performers who are good technically, but don't leave you spellbound, and older ones who are flawed technically but profoundly moving. Kitty |
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22 Feb 02 - 02:40 PM (#655508) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: GUEST,Russ When we talk about an artist's "peak" it seems to me that we are not talking about the artist, we are talking about us. I've seen it happen over and over. Artists change, but I don't. They see themselves and "growing", "developing", "maturing", etc. I am willing to grant them that. But too often they outgrow me. Happened with Dylan, Baez and even the Beatles. It is very rare for me to change in sync with the artist. I can name only a very few living musicians I am still listening to and eagerly awaiting output from after 25 or 30 years, e.g., Robin and Linda Williams, Mike Seeger, Martin Carthy, and a few others come to mind. But they were "niche" musicians to start with and still are. But they are niches I have stayed with. |
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22 Feb 02 - 03:05 PM (#655517) Subject: RE: Musicians, when did they peak From: greg stephens In brash new music (eg early jazz, early rock), brash new people are at their best. I still prefer Louis Armstrong Hot Five,early Duke Elligton early Stones, early Dylan etc etc.Say 2 years into their careers but not as much as 10. Ignore the first LP, look at the next few. But more reflective music that's going with a longer cultural roll....well like McGrath says, nothing but total decrepitude stops the Carthys and Coppers getting better and better. Have to say though, that the serious, creative innovators virtually always do it early, it's only interpreters that improve after 40. |