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02 Mar 02 - 09:51 AM (#661272) Subject: Pictures of Ulster From: little john cameron Grand pictures of Ulster to give you an idea of its history.Ulster pcs and murals |
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02 Mar 02 - 10:24 AM (#661293) Subject: RE: Pictures of Ulster From: Big John A brief history of the Orange Order. In 1690 a Dutch King fought an English King on Irish soil using Scottish mercenaries. The Dutch king was victorious and the Scottish mercenaries by way of payment were given the lands of Ulster plus the right to treat the Irish as second class citizens. The annual marches under the banner of William of Orange are nothing more than a reaffirmation of that right and a reminder to the natives of their second class position. I do not like making any political comment and I love the Scottish people and have had great times there but I resent the Mudcat forum being used in this manner. |
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02 Mar 02 - 11:15 AM (#661319) Subject: RE: Pictures of Ulster From: GUEST to the victors go the spoils |
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02 Mar 02 - 03:10 PM (#661445) Subject: RE: Pictures of Ulster From: little john cameron Whit manner wid that be Big John?Is this no' history? ljc |
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02 Mar 02 - 03:49 PM (#661469) Subject: RE: Pictures of Ulster From: The Pooka Big John - I don't like the consequences of King Billy's victory at the Boyne either. There is much merit it what you said. And I'm for a united Ireland and furthermore I think we, or our children, will probably see that come---democratically. (Birth rate statistics.) But whether that happens or no, the two distinct cultures in Northern Ireland/Ulster/Northeast Ulster/The Six Counties/The Statelet or whatever else we may call it, have to learn to live together with some kind of mutual respect. And ARE learning, however slowly. Now I know it's easy for me to talk, being far removed from the troubles. But still, as an American of Irish Catholic descent, I don't know much about Ulster Protestant culture and I want to learn. I don't have to like all of it, and I *don't*. But we can't repeal history, so might as well learn it. And Yes, learn *from* it too. |
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02 Mar 02 - 11:50 PM (#661671) Subject: RE: Pictures of Ulster From: Big John I try to be realistic about Irish history. Because of Ireland's geographical/stratigic location west of Britain it was inevitable that they would need to hold Ireland, purely as a defensive measure against whichever European country they happened to be fighting with. I have no illusions either about the French, the Spanish, the Dutch, The Portugese, the Germans, or any others. If they had succeeded in "rescuing" Ireland from British rule we would have become a colony of that country. With the existence of the European Community that situation no longer exists and I have no doubt that the English, Welsh and Scottish people would be glad to acknowledge the logical fact that Ireland ,as an island, should exist as a seperate entity. I sincerely believe that the vast majority of Irish people no longer bear the old resentmet of Britain. Unfortunately there is a small minority on both sides who wish to dwell on past glories and avenge past wrongs and it is very difficult to convince them to come into the 21st. century. The title of this thread, PICTURES of ULSTER, suggested to me that I might see some pleasent scenery, instead I saw these pictures of triumphalism and bigotry. I have no doubt that if I searched the web I would find equally unpleasent photographs posted by the Republican bigots. I would simply repeat my previous assertion that the Mudcat forum is not the place for extremist views. |
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03 Mar 02 - 12:21 AM (#661682) Subject: RE: Pictures of Ulster From: Sorcha LJC's link doesn't work for me. I would like to see the pics........ |
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03 Mar 02 - 07:48 AM (#661757) Subject: RE: Pictures of Ulster From: alison the scenery ones are pretty...... but there are better ones here and here without the political overtones..... there are some great murals..... from both "sides" (how I hate that term)of the community........ my favourite one (if it is still there)is off Templemore Avenue in East Belfast... a huge gable wall of Spiderman!! slainte alison |
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03 Mar 02 - 11:53 AM (#661840) Subject: RE: Pictures of Ulster From: little john cameron The murals are artistically very good.My point in the post was to try and show the diversity in the "scenery".A land of contrasts indeed! ljc |
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03 Mar 02 - 01:51 PM (#661902) Subject: RE: Pictures of Ulster From: Big John Hi, LJC, Undoubtedly the murals are artistic and mirror dramatically what was the stark reality of two factions of terrorists inflicting mayhem and murder on the community. The photographs of the Orange parades which convey to the viewer a pleasant view of gentlemen dressed in suits and bowler hats parading with their banners gives a false air of respectability to the underlying cynical reality. My final word is that I hope that the Peace Process will eventually resolve the differences which will give both religious traditions thr opportunity to remember the past with dignity and honour and create a future of peace and freedom for their children. I'll see you in Glasgow next year, LJC. John. |
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03 Mar 02 - 03:01 PM (#661954) Subject: RE: Pictures of Ulster From: The Pooka Amen amen to Big John's hope; and hurrah boys for Alison's mural: Up Spiderman! |
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03 Mar 02 - 03:45 PM (#661976) Subject: RE: Pictures of Ulster From: little john cameron Ah totally agree wi' ye Big John.Yer views on the proximity o' the beatiful wee island made it strategically important tae the security o' the area.It is too bad that religious differences got in the way.Ower the years ah hae read a fair bit o' Irish history an' it is a very strange history indeed. Ah mind every year when the "Marchin season "came oan ,the boat wis chock-a-block wi' Scots headin ower tae celebrate the Battle o' the Boyne.Ah had a pal wha worked oan the boat an' he telt me it wis pandimonium.Still the same as far as ah know.Ah pity the puir tourists whit get caught up in it. As wis mentioned here afore,here in Newfoundland whaur ah live noo,Paddys Day comin up an' aw' hauns get involved.Ye can get up in oney pub an' sing Roddy McCorley or Derrys walls an' naebody bats an eye.In fact ah've sang baith oan tv here."BR> "Man tae man,the wurld ower,will brithers be for aw' that!" ljc |
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03 Mar 02 - 11:05 PM (#662211) Subject: RE: Pictures of Ulster From: GUEST,coyote breath - sometimes a guest I am grateful to LJC for the link. I have seen other murals. The main diffrences I see are these: The loyalist murals seem to convey a feeling of "we won!" and the republican murals seem to answer: "yeah, through institutionalized injustice!" There are many murals in republican areas though, some of which speak to injustice in places other than the North. I especially like the very well designed and stunningly executed mural that asks support for Leonard Peltier and AIM. Wouldn't it be great if we could do a "Mural Tour" and appreciate them for their art and consider the politics only from it's influence on the artists? I've always appreciated "engaged art" even when I disagreed with who did it and who it was done for. CB |
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03 Mar 02 - 11:25 PM (#662220) Subject: RE: Pictures of Ulster From: *#1 PEASANT* You will find my battle of the boyne pages here Clickit here You will find the orange songs here Clickit here My ulster wall art should be here but not working today will investegate Conrad |
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04 Mar 02 - 12:10 AM (#662241) Subject: RE: Pictures of Ulster From: little john cameron Ah wis wonderin when ye wid show up.We're gettin oan fine withoot yer nonsense thankee very much.ljc |
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04 Mar 02 - 03:26 AM (#662300) Subject: RE: Pictures of Ulster From: Teribus Thanks Big John for your "potted history" of the event that created the Orange Order. But a few more important facts should have been included: A Dutch King - true enough, Prince William of Orange was married to the sister (Mary) of the deposed Stuart King. The King was deposed by Parliament in the Glorious Revolution of 1688, Glorious because it was accomplished without bloodshed. The deposed Stuart King didn't think it all that Glorious because he then proceeded to try and win his crown back by raising an army in Ireland not to fight for irish independence but to invade the mainland. The army opposing James was a government army and not one predominantly composed of mercenaries. It came from Scotland mainly for two reasons. The first being that immediately prior to the events of 1690 in Ireland, Viscount Dundee, had raised a rebellion in support of James in Scotland and the government of the day raised an army to suppress that rebellion in Scotland (1689). Having a bunch of lads already mustered in Scotland, linked to the close proximity of the two countries made them the obvious choice for the job. James's main supporter (apart from the French) for his attempted management take over was the Duke of Ormonde whose power base was in the North of Ireland so that is where the match was arranged. The Plantation of Scots into Ulster began far earlier in the 17th century and was started by another Stuart King, James Ist of England and VIth of Scotland. He did this as a way of pacifying what he called his "middle shires" - the area normally referred to as the anglo-scottish border. What they did after seemed to be pretty much par for the course for those times (irrespective of who the combatants were, or where the action took place) and for a long time afterwards (US actions against the Indian nations late 1870's).
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08 Mar 02 - 10:08 AM (#665027) Subject: RE: Pictures of Ulster From: little john cameron Alison,here is another one from St Johns Nfld. St Johns Nfld |
