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06 Mar 02 - 05:47 PM (#663930) Subject: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: DougR Bobert made an interesting statement in the thread Fionn started about the execution of a convicted self-confessed killer. I started to pose this question where he posted it, but I didn't want to commandeer Fionn's thread. If I understood his statement (correct me if I am wrong, Bobert, but I would pose the original question anyway) he intimated that killing someone in self-defence was justified, or words to that effect. There are many in this forum that seem to be totally opposed to anyone killing anyone else under ANY circumstance. Does that apply if one feels he/she must kill to defend one's own life? DougR |
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06 Mar 02 - 05:52 PM (#663933) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Bill D I suspect you'll get a bell shaped curve on this one... "never".."always"...with a lot of "sometimes" in between...of course the answer is "sometimes"...almost everyone would kill to defend themselves or their family... |
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06 Mar 02 - 05:56 PM (#663936) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: DougR Perhaps, Bill D. But I suspect there might be some interesting replies. We'll see. DougR |
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06 Mar 02 - 06:04 PM (#663937) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: katlaughing In martial arts, at least the forms I have studied and practised, the object is to get out of the way of one's opponent, if at all possible, NOT to kill them, even if they are trying to kill you. Preferably, as you get out of their way, they head right for a brick wall and knock themselves out!**bg** With that in mind, I would try to take that action first, BUT if it came down to them or me, or my family or pets, I'd do what I could to stop them. I would hope that could be in a non-fatal way. First thing I do, though, is do my best to never get in such a situation. kat |
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06 Mar 02 - 06:33 PM (#663940) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: SharonA I remember a thread on this subject going by a few months ago, but I can't remember the thread title. Anybody else recall it? |
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06 Mar 02 - 10:57 PM (#663960) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: khandu I would do it without hesitation to defend the ones that I love. khandu |
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06 Mar 02 - 11:02 PM (#663964) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Sorcha Are we talking exclusively humans? If so, yes, I think I would. We never really know until it comes to the moment........my children are the most precious things in my life and I would like to think I could defend them, but who knows unless the Crunch hits? I just hope it never does. |
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06 Mar 02 - 11:32 PM (#663982) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Lepus Rex Well... I think all killing is wrong. People, dogs, cockroaches, geraniums, etc. I still eat meat and vegetables (duh), though, and I'd still slaughter any fleas that decided to make a home on my cat, but I'd feel bad about it. (However, I don't swat mosquitos. ;)) So... I strongly oppose the idea the idea that any government at any level has the right to take a person's life. Execution in particular is brutal and anachronistic, and the U.S. should join the civilized nations of the world by banning it. But... Let's say someone killed my... dad. I know that, if I knew who killed him, I would attempt to kill the murderer. Now, if I succeeded in killing this person, I'd know that what I'd done was wrong, and turn myself in to the proper authorities (unless I was in a death penalty state, in which case I would run like Hell.) for punishment. Because killing is wrong. Which, yeah, makes me violent and bad, blah blah blah. And, of course, I'd do the same (kill) if someone tried to kill me. But let's say my dad was killed down in Lower Klanistan, and the police arrested the murderer, who was convicted and sentenced to DEATH Well, I'd oppose that. So... That answer your question, Doug? :) ---Lepus Rex
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06 Mar 02 - 11:35 PM (#663985) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Yes, If you endanger my life, or my hamster's. |
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06 Mar 02 - 11:42 PM (#663988) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: toadfrog I have not killed anyone, or been in a position where it appeared to be called for. I did serve in the Army, which could have placed me in a position where this was required. I strongly suspect that the honest answer for me, and most others similarly situated, is that we don't know whether we would, or would not kill another person if a situation required it, or seemed to require it. Anybody watch In the Bedroom? A good one to see before you post to this thread. |
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06 Mar 02 - 11:52 PM (#663995) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Sorcha Well, I helped kill a cat today........beloved friend for 13 years. It was painless and he was miserable--blind, deaf, brain damaged, incontinent........it was a Last Gift. In that context, I humbly submit that you are wrong, Lepus. I wish I could have done the same for my mother and father, and wish that someone could do the same for me if I am ever in that position. How about "Is Killing In/With Violence Ever Justifiable"? |
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07 Mar 02 - 12:02 AM (#664000) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Lepus Rex That's an excellent point, Sorcha, and "with violence" was what I was talking about. I wouldn't even call helping a suffering cat/person/whatever to die "killing," necessarily, unless you, well, used a lead pipe or something. And sorry to hear about your cat. :( ---Lepus Rex |
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07 Mar 02 - 12:05 AM (#664004) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: DougR Lepus, that certainly is an interesting reply anyway. You don't swat mosquitos? DougR |
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07 Mar 02 - 12:07 AM (#664006) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Sorcha Thank you, Lepus, for both the condolence and the clarification. To all of you--- See how many shades there are to "killing"? |
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07 Mar 02 - 12:10 AM (#664011) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Lepus Rex Nope, Doug. I brush them away. :) ---Lepus Rex |
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07 Mar 02 - 12:23 AM (#664015) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: khandu Three years ago, a stupid man pulled a box-cutter (before box-cutters became the weapon of choice!) on me in a roadside rest stop in the middle of the night. No one else was there. In fact, I had not met another vehicle for miles. Unfortunately, I was in no mood to be threatened or robbed. I have just gotten a "Dear John" from my fiance and I was enraged at the world. Seeing this doofus threatening me with his absurd, but possibly lethal, weapon unleashed the rage within me. I attacked him. After leaving him bleeding and unconscious, I headed for my car. Before I got there, I became angry again. I went back in to the restroom, took his knife and everything he had in his pockets...9 dollars and two ball-bearings(?) and left. I am no thief, but the indignity of all that pissed me off, so I gave him what he would have given me. I did not kill him, though by state law, I would have been justified. I did leave him with no nose and a long time to heal. Five miles down the road, I stopped and threw up, sickened by the violence, his and mine. It took a while for me to reconcile myself with the violence that I displayed. Had I not been so distraught before the attempted robbery, I would have reacted differently. But, nonetheless, if pressed hard enough, I would kill to defend myself. khandu |
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07 Mar 02 - 12:25 AM (#664017) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Lonesome EJ Wouldn't it be much more humane to capture and rehabilitate them, Lepus? |
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07 Mar 02 - 12:28 AM (#664018) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Chip2447 In a heartbeat, to protect my life, The lives of my family members, or a stranger on the street. Chip2447 |
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07 Mar 02 - 12:55 AM (#664022) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Lepus Rex Yes. Incorrigible. :( ---Lepus Rex |
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07 Mar 02 - 05:33 AM (#664088) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: GUEST,anon Objectively no its not justified. Subjectively yes I would do it and feel (convince myself) justified, both as defence and as revenge - though of course that's just conjecture as I've never had sufficient provocation (and X-fingers never will). I do know, however, that I will react very violently if my bluff is called. For example, a total stranger kept putting ice down the back of my dress in a pub, and after I asked him several times to stop he asked what was I going to do about it. So I burnt him with my cigarette - just to avoid backing down. Not very clever, as this resulted in a fight etc, but I know that I'd do it again in the same situation. If the stakes were high enough I'm fairly sure I'd kill. I've also seen that adrenalin thing that some men get when spoiling for a fight. Both my husband and his brother can get very hyped up when riled (not often) - and their breathing changes and you can see by their weird eye-focus thing that there will be trouble. Its a very powerful state of mind and there is no rational thought - so who knows what seems justified under those conditions? Civilisation is sometimes a very thin veneer isn't it? |
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07 Mar 02 - 07:46 AM (#664111) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: McGrath of Harlow I have the right to defend myself and other people. In certain circumstances that might mean injury or death to another person, but my intention would be defensive, with the injury and death an unwanted side-effect. At all times I should use the minimum possible force necessary.
That's the principle anyway. And of course there is room for disagreement about what is the minimum necessary force. That ranges from people who would claim that it is justifiable to kill as a way of deterring other people to those who would say that avoiding killimng or injury at the cost of being injured or killed is the only way in the longer run to stop the cycle of violence.
But the same basic principle of minimum necessary violence should be common ground - and that includes a recognition that in all circumstances killing simply for vengeance is wrong.
That's the principle anyway. Human beings being fallible, we don't stick to that, and that is very understandable. When we go beyond what is necessary we may be entitled to be forgiven - but we should never try to say that what we did is right.
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07 Mar 02 - 09:04 AM (#664144) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Ringer "killing simply for vengeance is wrong", says McGrath (twice). But how about killing for justice? |
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07 Mar 02 - 09:09 AM (#664147) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: mack/misophist Traditional rabbinical thinking, which is very pacifistic, says that almost all restrictions are off when protecting the life of another. To save a life is the greatest mitzvah possible. The "no matter what it takes", now, that's another matter. |
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07 Mar 02 - 09:39 AM (#664160) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Bill D many years ago, I knew a woman who considered herself to be a 'Bhuddist'...but was really trying to practice 'Jainism', which teaches reverence for all life..she even worried about eating eggs, and had to be sure they were unfertilized..... well, she was noticed one day scooping up cockroaches in her kitchen,and, since she would not squash them or spray them, tossing them outside----into below freezing temperatures! "All I'm doing is getting them out of my house", she said,"what God does with them after that is not my concern"...... my, the human mind can certainly create any rules it needs to justify whatever it feels like doing |
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07 Mar 02 - 10:35 AM (#664189) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: McGrath of Harlow "Killing for justice" - in my view the only way to justify this would be on the grounds that this was a form of self defence by the community, as a way of preventing further violence towards the innocent in the future.
I would question whether this would ever stand up except perhaps in very special circumstances. "Killing for justice" in most circumstances I'd just see as a formalised way of killing for vengeance. |
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07 Mar 02 - 10:38 AM (#664192) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Mrrzy JustifiABLE, in almost every killer's mind. JustiFIED in the eyes of the rest of society... is another thing. According to our legal system the answer is Yes, or self-defense wouldn't be a defense. Is this "right" or not? Separate question. |
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07 Mar 02 - 11:33 AM (#664223) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Clinton Hammond Killing... It's the way of the world... New Age clap-trap, and delusions of a past that never existed aside, EVERYTHING kills something else to survive, whether directly or indirectly... Me, I kill at the drop of a hat... So be warned! LOL!!! |
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07 Mar 02 - 12:07 PM (#664250) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Kim C Well, you could say that the balance of the universe demands life and death, good and evil. So in that context, death as a result of evil is going to occur. Now. Self-defense? Oh yeah. No question for me about that. Would I WANT to kill someone? No way. I would rather knock them unconscious, tie them up and wait for the police. But if I had to shoot, I'd do it. I don't kill most bugs in my house. We try to trap them and take them outside. Except for those moths that get in your grain products - I have declared WAR on those. |
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07 Mar 02 - 01:28 PM (#664322) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: DougR When I posed the question, I did not consider the legality of it. Even if it was legal, I am inclined to believe that some of our Mudcat friends would not kill another person, even in self-defense. I have been rather surprised to see how many that would. I would with no hesitation. DougR |
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07 Mar 02 - 01:29 PM (#664323) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable?I From: Mickey191 I was attacked once in a store I worked in. This Crazy (politically incorrect term) woman started ranting and raving at a customer who was minding her own business. I asked the weird one to leave the premises. Before I knew it she was on me in a little alcove, where we could not be seen. I yelled to the other customers call the police. She is punching and scratching and I was just trying to push her away. The men in the store did nothing. All the time, I'm thinking, If I hit her, I'll be sued, Which is why I didn't flatten her. I finally extricated myself from the alcove and ran to the phone. No one had even called the police. At this point, she left-drove away in her yellow bug.It proved to me that I could keep a calm head in a bad situation. However, if she'd had a knife and I'd had a gun. I 'd have blown her away without a moments hesitation, With a clear conscience. |
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07 Mar 02 - 02:09 PM (#664344) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: McGrath of Harlow Using a gun to stop someone attacking you or someone else is one thing, and that might indeed mean they were killed.
But "blowing people away" - to me that sounds like the language of someone who actually welcomes the opportunity to kill another person, rather than recognising it as something that, if it has to be done, is a horrible thing to have to do.
I'm sure that isn't how Mickey191 is really thinking. But there are people who do think like that. It's not a good idea to talk in a way that helps them think that that is a sane and acceptable way of thinking. I'd have no problems in calling it a crazy way of thinking. |
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07 Mar 02 - 02:33 PM (#664374) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Peter K (Fionn) A huge West Indian guy went berserk in a store my wife managed, threw her against some shelves and tried to wack a can of beans in her head ( she dodged it). The security staff got him outside and gave him a serious beating - about which my wife, to her credit, was disgusted and angry. I wouldn't go to the stake to save people like the Wests, to mention an odious couple who achieved notoriety in the UK; nor the likes of John Wayne Gacey in the states. It's a serious issue, though, that even in the most apparently clear-cut cases, wrongful convictions do occur. I can't think of anything worse a civilised society can do than execute an innocent person. I don't have any stomach for executing war criminals years after the atrocities, because people can and do change. I would however be all in favour of them having to square up to what they'd done in some appropriate forum. I had great hopes for the truth & reconciliation approach in S Africa. Pity it didn't work better, but it was still their best chance of a stable recovery from the horror that went before. |
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07 Mar 02 - 03:13 PM (#664420) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Bobert Well, since my wranglin' buddy. DougR dragged my poor butt into this thread I figuered I'd at least say, HEY, So, DougR, you were surprised that I woulod kill in self defense or in the defense of my family or friends, or just innocent folks standing around. Well, it certainly wouldn't be my first choice. Katlaughing and McGrath have both brought up the concept of minimum force and that is where I come down on the issue. I also learned the concept many years ago while diddling around with Karate. It would take an extreme situation for me to kill another human and one where there were absolutely no other alternatives. But with that said, I'm stcking with the premise that if we expect a more civilized society we're not going to get there by killing folks. I have no problem with life with no parole for dangerous folks, however. Sorcha: Sorry about the cat. I lost my border collie, Shep, last fall and still miss that old flea bite hound. Lepus Rex: I try not to let the mesquetos breed to begin with. That way I don't have to swat them. But I do show a lot more respect for those living creatures further up the food chain. I am a gardener and rabbits, moles, voles and deer can be a pain BUT I don't kill 'em, but I do irritate them with a variety of sprays, noisemankers, and have on occasion stung a bad doe with my air rifle. DougR: Gotta respect the way you hang in there, buddy. You stick around here long enough and one day you'll wake up with a "Red Book" in your pajama pocket... Woaa! Slow down there, Bobert... Jus' funnin with ya', buddy... |
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07 Mar 02 - 03:22 PM (#664432) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: GUEST,Les B. I guess the "justifiable" killing that puzzles me is when the game guards in animal preserves in Africa shoot and kill poachers. Granted, sometimes the poachers are shooting at the guards first, in which case the self defense idea prevails, but my general understanding is that at times the guards shoot first. The poachers are killing animals - to make a living, and the guards are killing humans - to enforce laws. Seems like the logic about the value of human life is screwy ?? |
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07 Mar 02 - 03:36 PM (#664449) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: katlaughing In talking with a friend who has been confronted with this, he suggested 1) that NOT knowing if we could or could not leaves us unprepared and could get us killed, if ever in that type of situation; 2) if he had a family, he would raise his children to know when it is appropriate and possible to use the flight, fight or flee response. NOT just teach one, but all three, for different circumstances, so that they would be prepared; 3) talking about this in an intellectual, hypothetical way may be helpful for us, but it is important to hear from those who actually have been in these kinds of situations, as some have posted above. I used to be so sure that I would kill someone outright if they ever threatened my family, me, friends, pets, etc. Now, I just don't know. If it were my kids, grandkids or pets, I think I would; if it were myself, I think I'd try any of the other things first, which, if my friend is correct, would most likely get me killed. How the hell can we really know without actually being in that situation? Is this just a mental exercise, then? Do we live in a safer place of society that we can indulge and not be confronted? Just asking, not accusing. Thanks, kat |
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07 Mar 02 - 03:50 PM (#664463) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: PeteBoom Regarding capital punishment... Tolkein summed up my feelings very well indeed... "Death? I daresay he deserves death. Yet many who live deserve death, just as many who die deserve life. Can you give it to them? ...Do not be swift to give one without being able to give the other." In other circumstances, taking up arms to defend my wife, step-daughters and grandchildren is something that is omni-present for me, particularly where I live. (Having had the police over last night for two hours dealing with local thugs.) Pere |
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07 Mar 02 - 04:08 PM (#664488) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: toadfrog Gee, Mr. Eagle, what does that mean, "killing for justice"? I'm a lawyer. I hear people talk about "justice" all the time. I am frequently amazed at how easy it is for people to persuade themselves that "justice" requires that their every wish be gratified. But it is not necessary to hang around the courts to reach that conclusion; just listen to what folks say on the radio. "Killing for justice" sounds to me a whole lot like killing for revenge. Or killing to show everybody how powerful, and how macho one is. But maybe I misapprehend something. Maybe you can explain the difference to me? |
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07 Mar 02 - 04:16 PM (#664499) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Clinton Hammond "Seems like the logic about the value of human life is screwy" Why is human life more valuable than animall life??? |
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07 Mar 02 - 06:02 PM (#664604) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: DougR Bobert: that's how I took it. I feel if I stick around long enough, I'll swing you to my POV! DougR |
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07 Mar 02 - 06:28 PM (#664627) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Bobert LOL, DougR. Heck, if I agreed with your stuff, what would we have to wrangle over? Peace. |
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07 Mar 02 - 07:13 PM (#664656) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: McGrath of Harlow Arguing is different from quarrelling - that's a distinction people keep on failing to make. Arguing with people you are fond of about things you disagree about can be one of the great pleasures of life.
Maybe you get them to change their minds, maybe they get you to change your mind. More likely you begin to understand why the other person sees it differently. With luck, while you continue to disagree, you might find some deeper level where you are in agreement.
And that can work with people you aren't particularly fond of, in serious negotiations, teasing out the common interests, and using that as a basis for building some kind of common ground on which both sides can stand. Of course if you've killed each other before you get to that stage, it doesn't work. |
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07 Mar 02 - 07:18 PM (#664662) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: DougR And then there is also discussion without hope of conversion, McGrath. I think much of what goes on here is that (as I creep my own thread) DougR |
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07 Mar 02 - 07:26 PM (#664669) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Peter K (Fionn) OK Toadfrog, I'm off to see In the Bedroom tomorrow night. I assume it's a good film as well as relevant? |
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07 Mar 02 - 08:11 PM (#664700) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: McGrath of Harlow Most argument is argument without any expectation of conversion - what there can be is hope of understanding, and I think that is at least as important. Understanding the other person's viewpoint, and getting a better understanding of what we actually believe ourselves. And that can reveal that there is more in common than is immediately apparent.
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07 Mar 02 - 11:07 PM (#664805) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Little Hawk Hmmmm...well, the human mind being what it is (a law unto itself, and the self-assumed center of the universe)...ANYthing can be "justifiable", given someone's line of rational. Or not, given someone else's line. And that is one reason why crimes happen in this world. I can certainly imagine situations where I might kill someone, though I hope that they do not arise. In general, I think a wise person finds any other solution first, before killing another human being. A less wise person doesn't give that a whole lot of thought, and frequently ruins his life (and other lives) as a consequence of that lack of forethought. There's usually a better solution than killing someone, but sometimes there is no better solution. Someone who knows martial arts well can easily disarm or incapacitate an ordinary opponent without killing him, whereas someone who doesn't may not have such good control over how he defends himself in an emergency. A blanket statement one way or the other for or against killing is not likely to cover all circumstances. The same goes for other contentiuos issues...like abortion, for example. It depends greatly on the situation one finds oneself in. Being in the middle of a battlefield, for instance, is a different situation than being on the streets of a town in peacetime, and merits different behaviour. I do think that it is very dangerous to give any government the right to legally execute its own citizens...or anyone else...as a normal function during peacetime. There's no need for it in any case. People can, after all, be imprisoned and put where they are no further danger to the public. The numerous cases of people wrongly convicted of crimes (and sometimes not exonerated till decades after the conviction...) are among the strongest reasons for NOT executing people. A man was recently exonerated in Canada after serving a couple of decades for a "murder" that is now determined to never have happened!!! His wife, the victim, is now believed to have simply fallen down a flight of cellar stairs and died by misadventure (rather than being bludgeoned and tossed down)...this decision was reached by a vast majority of over 20 modern forensic experts who researched the old files, exhumed the wife's body, and studied the original very flimsy (if not nonexistant) evidence brought against the accused man by some overzealous police officers who figured they were on to something. In Texas he would have been executed long ago. In Canada he goes free, but has lost a huge chunk of his life to a fallible system. I believe people execute criminals more out of fear than for any other reason. They call it "justice", but I don't, I call it fear. Justice is something far too subtle and elusive to be understood by anyone except a god or an angel. People try to arrange what they call "justice" with their laws and their punishments, but they fall way short of comprehending how to actually do it. What they end up arranging is not justice, but a sort of primitive coping mechanism for responding to social disorders. Well, okay, it's better than no mechanism at all...but it's not justice. So, Doug, I can see where I might kill someone under certain circumstances, I just generally hope not to if at all possible. And as for killing animals, bugs, plants, etc....we all figure those questions out in our own unique fashion, and it will ever be so, I figure. I eat some meat and I kill mosquitoes and black flies (a notable Canadian wilderness pest) ruthlessly. I've been known to catch fish. It's probably impossible to get through this life without killing something, I just try to keep it down to a reasonable minimum. - LH |
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07 Mar 02 - 11:09 PM (#664806) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: mack/misophist The first question to ask is "Is it ever justifiable to kill somebody for reasons other than self defense"? It's hard to argue that Hitler, Stalin, and Mao deserved to live out their natural spans. After that, things get complicated. Please note. US prisons tried rehabilitation for over a generation. In most cases, it didn't work. What else is left, other than revenge? |
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07 Mar 02 - 11:27 PM (#664813) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Tweed Banishment. Drop them (extreme criminals) off in the Arctic and let them fend for themselves. |
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07 Mar 02 - 11:30 PM (#664814) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Little Hawk What else is left? Practicality. I find it quite practical to imprison people (if I have a clear reason to) and not kill them. Hitler, Stalin, and Mao found it much more practical to kill them...en masse...while imprisoning many more. This is why I would not kill Hitler or anyone else, if he became my prisoner at the end of a shooting war...I would imprison him. I would give him time to fully examine and face the results of his actions. I have no wish to imitate the world's despots and make myself the mirror of their brutality...their sense of divine right to judge, condemn, and exterminate those they deem undesirable. It is people who are deeply afraid who kill other people. Hitler was deeply afraid, largely as a result of some pretty horrific things he experienced as a corporal in the 1st World War. That fear, coupled with a gift for oratory and an obsession to "save Germany" from what he deemed as "enemies within", made him a very dangerous man. - LH |
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07 Mar 02 - 11:38 PM (#664819) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Stilly River Sage I live in a state (Texas) with a bad reputation for a lot of things. One of them is how liberal they are in exercising the death penalty. I am not in favor it it. But read this story and see if you don't find real cause for at least considering it. Then think about how this has been dealt with so far--she got bail for $10,000. Do you think it's because the victim was a non-entity, a homeless man? BTW: I had never been in a position to think myself capable of killing someone in self-defense. But when my first child was born the ante was instantly raised and I knew that if I had to kill to protect my child, it would be possible. SRS |
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07 Mar 02 - 11:48 PM (#664824) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Mickey191 McGrath, you're absolutely correct, (inre.to my 1:29 post) it was a poor choice of words. I should have said, "I'd dispatch her in a minute." I feel better now! In the U.S. a life sentence rarely means that. If the laws were changed so there were no possibility of parole in appropriate cases, we could abolish the death penalty.If there was a national referendum, I wonder how the vote would tally. I don't mind admitting, for over a year I kept my eye out for that yellow volkswagon. |
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08 Mar 02 - 12:42 AM (#664841) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Kaleea If one looks only at the title of this thread, then one might think of the nature channel on which the basic core of our earth ecology is based upon: the bigger critter eating the smaller critter to survive. Then we go round the dial to the news channel where people have been attacked by their enemies and must take arms to defend their homes, families & country (or what is left of it in some cases), & in the next story we see the zealots who have been enraged for so many centuries that no one remembers why they are fighting, but they do know that they hate the enemy & the enemy must be killed at all costs, even if it means suicide bombs or whatever because that is serving "God" and their country's cause. Then we go to the next channel where there is a movie which glorifies people who drive fast, fancy cars, steal & murder while the audience cheers them on. So I suppose it sounds as though it depends upon the perception of the person(s) doing the killing, doesn't it. If one asks a holy person of ANY major religion to read the scriptures in their holy book on the subject of killing, it will unequivocally maintain that to rise up & murder another person is against the beliefs & teachings of that book/or teachings of that religious philosophy. Evidently there are a great many people who either do not read the holy scriptures, or they ignore them. |
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08 Mar 02 - 01:10 AM (#664849) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Clinton Hammond Why clutter up the Arctic... Look at the mess we made of Australia doing exactly the same stupid thing... |
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08 Mar 02 - 01:40 AM (#664853) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: DougR SRS:critics of Texas, just don't know it. L.H. Sometimes you do go on, don't you? :>) Clinton Hammond: all we need to clutter up the Artic with is oil rigs (I'm battin' down the hatches on that one). DougR |
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08 Mar 02 - 02:01 AM (#664858) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: katlaughing SRS, thanks for the link. I can find no adequate words to describe how that terrible story effected me. I agree with Mickey, that if a life sentence meant life we wouldn't even need to have this discussion. That actually pisses me off more than some of the rest of this: the fact that people seem to never be held for the length of their sentencing. I also don't understand mixing people of non-violent criminal acts in prison with those of violent acts. Makes no sense to me. |
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08 Mar 02 - 02:59 AM (#664873) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Hrothgar Gee, Clinton, thanks for those kind words about Australia. Where Australia is relevant in this thread is that a lot of the convicts that were sent here were sentenced to transportation as an alternative to death. There was also a problem with convictions to some extent in early 19th century England - there were so many capital crimes that often it was difficult to get a jury to convict. When you look at the list of hanging offences they had then, it is pretty scary. I did say this in the other thread about the murderer, and I think it is equally valid here: My problem with the death penalty, apart from the basic sanctity of human life, is with the executioner. To whom do you give the right to take a human life? |
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08 Mar 02 - 10:16 AM (#665035) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Stilly River Sage Considering the fallibility of the criminal justice system, and how it STILL tends to levy the harshest sentences on minority offenders, taken in conjunction with the number of convictions overturned these days, it's quite brazen for Texas to continue to execute people. There is a heated race in Dallas now for the District Attorney's office. He's an entrenched Good Ol' Boy who has had cases thrown out right and left lately because of phony evidence apparently fabricated by a well-paid "informant" (a criminal character who is fingering supposed drug dealers). Only this guy had a real cushy thing going: he bundled up crumbled sheet rock, planted it in the trunks of cars of unsuspecting Mexican individuals (who spoke no English) then got paid big bucks when the investigating officers found pounds of apparent cocaine. Hill's office didn't bother to test the "drugs" and some of these poor guys stayed in jail for months before their attorneys were able to get it tested and cases dismissed. See more here. If his office is as slipshod as this on drug cases, I wouldn't trust any death penalty convictions from there either. SRS
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08 Mar 02 - 12:52 PM (#665153) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Ringer "Killing for justice" sounds to me a whole lot like killing for revenge. says toadfrog. I posed the question from which he quotes because the thread-title contains the concept of justice. The thread had had many posters offering their insights into whether or not they would kill and, if so, in what circumstances. Which is not quite what the thread is nominally about. Justice and justifiable have similar etymologies: I had imagined (incorrectly, I now see) that my allusion would be generally understood. Well, toadfrog, I'd have thought that you, as a lawyer, would have known the difference between justice and revenge. Why does "killing for justice" sound a whole lot like killing for revenge when (I presume) gaoling criminals, fining them, banning them from driving, have no such connotation for you? You seem to equate judicial execution (killing for justice) with killing for revenge because the end-product of both is the death of a human being. Do you make the same equation of a gaol sentence with kidnapping, or of a fine with theft (similar end-products: loss of liberty in the first case and reduction of assets in the second)? It is the essence of justice that the punishment should fit the crime. |
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08 Mar 02 - 01:37 PM (#665187) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Jim Krause Is the real question one of justification, or morality? Anything can be justified; killing, theft, arson, vengeance, anything. Morality is quite another question, indeed. Jim |
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08 Mar 02 - 01:45 PM (#665192) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Little Hawk Doug - Aye. When Ah git the bit in mah teeth, Ah jist love tae ramble on and on and on. Mah method is tae bury people under an avalanche o' worrrds till they canna remember whit they wis thinkin' aboot in the fairst place. Ah hae a wickedly pompous tongue an' Ah tae a shameless delight in repeatin' mahsel, an' gaun o'er the same worn territory agin an' agin an agin' an' attacking it frae seventeen different directions aw at the same time. Dinna be too harrd on me though, laddie, it's jist a result o' the fact that Ah've been larnin' Scots dialect frae Little John Cameron, an' it's addled mah sense o' proportion some'at. By the way, Ah posed the question frae this thread tae mah friend Johhny Death, who is an expatriate Scot noo livin' in Canada... His comment: "Killing's just about ALWAYS justifiable! It's the best way to settle a dispute. If a few million more people were killed we could eliminate all the troublemakers in this country soon enough, and put the place in order right quick." Johhny is a little tae the right of Genghis Khan, ye see, sae Ah wisnae surprised tae hear him sae that. And he wis in a guid mood too! - LH |
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08 Mar 02 - 04:53 PM (#665340) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: McGrath of Harlow The main rationale for the state killing prisoners convicted of certain crimes is that this is supposed to deter people from committing the crimes for which there's a death penalty. Essentially therefore it's seen as a bizarre form of communal self-defence.
The odd thing is that countries where the state kills people for murder also tend to have a higher murder rate than the countries where there's no death penalty. One way of explaining that would be to suggest that killing by the state contributes to lowering the killing threshold within the community. Or maybe it's that when you have a community with a low killing threshold, that spills over into its attitude towards the death penalty. |
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08 Mar 02 - 05:18 PM (#665362) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Bobert Yeah, McGrath, we have certainly desensitized and compartmentalized society to not only killing but violence as a whole. It's not just a problem of our government taking a hypocritical stand on the santity of life but we also have conservative so called Christains who never got to the new testiment who think that capital punishment is just fine with them. Now, you take it one step further and you have kids playing video games that depict very violent acts and are rewarded in these games for comitting these acts. And you have movies that depict very graphic violent acts by not only the bad guys but by the good guys. It's no wonder that there are so many violent folks. And its no surprise that so many folks hold such anti-human views. "Strap 'em in. I'll pull thswitch myself." Well, I'm not how we can redirect our society but its way off course in this ever shrinking, tribalized, globalized world... Peace. Bobert |
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08 Mar 02 - 05:52 PM (#665396) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: DougR Hey, L.H., you're doing pretty good with that Scotch talk!I am a bit concerned about myself though because I understood it! As I commented earlier in the thread, when I posed the question in this thread, I was not considering the legal ramifacations of the deed. Perhaps it is more a moral question as Jim suggests. Likely, if any of us are faced with such a dilema (and some obviously have been), I doubt we would spend much time questioning whether what we were about to do is legal or not. DougR |
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08 Mar 02 - 10:09 PM (#665514) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Cllr If this thread was called 1)Capital Punishiment is it ever justified. or 2) Abortion is it ever justified.or 3)Euthanasia is it ever justified.or 4)Talking life to preserve self, is it ever justified. you would probably get different answers in each thread (they could all be areas where killing could be justified) How ever philosophically, if you believe in sanctity of life the answer is No.If you don't believe it- then you have a choice. Cllr |
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08 Mar 02 - 11:47 PM (#665549) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: GUEST,Celtic Soul, away from Cookies All I can say is, politics and religion aside, if anyone tries to harm my daughter, I'll kill them. God didn't give me these maternal instincts just to see if I could hammer them down to nil. They're there for a purpose, and so far, have served me well. |
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09 Mar 02 - 12:08 AM (#665553) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: DougR Cllr; there was no intent to involve the question of capital punishment by a government; Euthanisia; or abortion. Those are separate questions as far as this thread is concerned. DougR |
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09 Mar 02 - 12:48 AM (#665574) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Stilly River Sage Celtic Soul, Great minds think alike. But understanding that those maternal instincts include desparate measures to protect our children hopefully means that we're frank with our children in teaching them how to protect themselves to avoid dangerous situations. And one way that I've found is a musical approach--my kids have discovered Tom Lehrer. And I've been doing a lot of explaining lately, about the subject matter of his songs. They understand his position regarding dope peddlars, plagiarists, lechers, poachers, murderous children, and many others among his topical song subjects. We discuss these frankly--"Does he approve or disapparove of drug pushers?" and a discussion of how the unsuspecting can become addicted to "free" drugs has been an important discussion (for just one example from many). To get back to the thread topic, Lehrer doesn't let his murderers off the hook in his songs, though some of them get off pretty lightly (as in The Hunting Song, I think it's called, for one). SRS |
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09 Mar 02 - 02:14 AM (#665603) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: toadfrog Mr. Eagle: I had thought from your chosen nickname that you were American. From your spelling of "gaol," I gather you are foreign, so perhaps you miss my point. No. "Killing for justice" is a truly wierd concept. I say that, even though I am not violently opposed to the death penalty, I just think it is unwarranted under most circumstances today. There is one good justification for the death penalty. That is, a dead person is not going to commit any more crimes. I guess that made sence back in the days there were no prisons that would hold people. But I take it, it is unjust to execute innocent people, and the existence of a death penalty means that, people being what they are, innocent people will be executed. Innocent people will be executed for several reasons, among them being the mentality of people who think "justice" means retribution, or getting even, or vengeance, if you like, and who appear not to care all that much who they get even with. This is particularly common among Americans. Americans tend not to like the government, or society, so that punishment is not viewed as a defense of society. Rather, it is popular here to justify the death penalty on the ground it gives satisfaction to the relatives or friends of victims to see the villain gasp his last. And I personally find this lynch-mob mentality repellant. |
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09 Mar 02 - 12:27 PM (#665772) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Celtic Soul SRS... Most heartily agreed! And thanks for the tip. I hadn't thought of introducing my daughter to Tom Lehrer yet, but now I think it a wonderful idea. My kid is rather bright, and understands sarcasm and satire better than I obviously have given her credit. Thanks!!
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09 Mar 02 - 01:18 PM (#665793) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Little Hawk Toadfrog - I heartily agree with your point. The more primitive-minded and brutal a population is, the more enthusiastically they will support the death penalty, torture, pogroms, public humiliation, and all other forms of human cruelty. One is reminded of the medieval mob burning innocent people at the stake, the Old Testament believers stoning people to death, the Romans crucifying people by the hundreds or even thousands, the Iroquois inflicting hideous tortures on their prisoners... It all stems from the same benighted and ignorant mentality...and it's based on fear...and a deep-seated conviction that the "other guy" is actually not really human, so it's perfectly all right to destroy him in some horrible fashion. It's ugly and sad, even demonic. It puts the lie to those who claim to seek "justice", as they are clearly incapable of it. That, however, is quite aside from what Doug was asking about when he launched this thread. But it's a worthwhile subject for discussion anyway. - LH |
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09 Mar 02 - 02:47 PM (#665833) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable From: Mickey191 Little Hawk, was there no part of you that, even in a small way, responded favorably to the execution of Ted Bundy? I was glad to know this human being, who had not a trace of humanity, would no longer be alive. I count his end as comeupance well deserved. You refer to the horrible destruction committed by the state. Horrible, repugnant, repulsive and inhuman are the adjectives that describe his acts on innocent young women.. In some cases he relied on their goodness to meet these victims. Wearing a cast and pretending he needed help, sealed their fate. |
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10 Mar 02 - 01:35 PM (#666354) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Little Hawk Mickey - Yeah, I understand just how you feel about that... Put it this way, if I had stumbled upon Ted Bundy torturing some girl, and I had a gun in my hand...I would quite likely have shot him (because of my immediate emotional gut reaction to a horrific situation). In other words, I probably feel pretty much the same way about Ted Bundy as you do. But I do not see the state as being in the same position as your or me when it comes to such things. The law is not an apparatus that can allow itself to be governed by raw emotional reactions, it has to be dispassionate, logical, and systematic in its procedures. To allow the state to execute people is to open a very dangerous door that can be abused by people in high places, and frequently is. Dictatorships are run on raw emotion, democracies are not (or should not be). When it comes to private individuals in moments of stress, that's a completely different matter. They will always act in their own individual ways, regardless of the law, because people have free will. The law does not (or should not) have free will...it follows a predetermined code of behaviour...or it is not a law at all... It is the state's business to proscecute people like Ted Bundy, and sentence them, and imprison them, but not to hate them. State-sponsored execution is an act of cold, premeditated hatred, not an act of justice...nor an act protecting anyone from anything. This can readily be observed by the fact that governments which are motivated primarily BY hatred tend to execute an inordinately large number of people...the Nazis being a spectacular example of that...and they ALWAYS feel absolutely justified in doing so. Hitler, Goebbels, and Goering all died defiant and unrepentant, in absolute certaintly of the rightness and righteousness of their failed cause. Such is human mentality. I will not take the risk of sanctioning executions by any government It's simply too big a risk to allow, and it's not necessary in any case, from the point of view of protecting people or preserving public order. (In cases of great civil strife, war, looting, or rioting as in India recently...it may be necessary on an immediate basis in order to restore order and save lives...that's a different story.) If you were to shoot someone like Ted Bundy, in a moment of desperate emergency, I'd take a far less dim view of it than if your state government calmly electrocuted him 2 years later. Yet in our world you would end up quite likely being prosecuted on a serious charge while the state washes its hands just like Pontius Pilate and gets off scot free after committing any number of pre-planned murders behind the facade of "law". That is hypocritical in the extreme. It's a double standard. It favours the powerful and condemns the powerless. I don't buy it. - LH |
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10 Mar 02 - 02:53 PM (#666393) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: McGrath of Harlow The fact that it might make us feel good when some human being, no matter who or why, is killed - that is on eof the main reasons why having the death penalty available is not a good thing. It's an argument that weighs on the abolitionist side, rather than on the side for retention.
As for the suggestion that there is anything "primitive" about support for "the death penalty, torture, pogroms, public humiliation, and all other forms of human cruelty" - it'd be good to think that. But just a glance at the history of the last century and that argument just doesn't stand up. We may have different and more efficient methods, but collectively there is more blood on our hands than in any previous period in history. |
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11 Mar 02 - 07:58 AM (#666819) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: Ringer McGrath, Little Hawk, toadfrog: I disagree with you so profoundly on this point that where you think black I think white and vice versa. I posted my views on the death penalty in this thread (Click Here and wait a few moments after the index is shown). I don't propose to take up more space in this thread reiterating them. |
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11 Mar 02 - 08:27 AM (#666830) Subject: RE: BS: Killing. Is it ever justifiable? From: McGrath of Harlow "This point" - I was left in the air wondering which point, since a fair number have been made. In particular, even where people agree with each other on capital punishment, either for or against, there are still disagreements about why it is right or why it is wrong.
For example there are people who see capital punishment as a necessary but regrettable act of self-defence by the community, and those who see it as an act of justifiable and laudable vengeance.
Again there are people who see capital punishment as wrong because on balance they believe it actually serves to stimulate the tendency of people in the community to murder each other, and there are those who are against it because they see it as wrong no matter what.
Each of those positions would require completely different counter-arguments. One of the reasons we fall into the habit of arguing past each other rather than with each other is that we fail to take account of such distinctions. |