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26 Mar 02 - 08:30 AM (#676493) Subject: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: Hecate I've just been through all the "Cruel Mothers" amongst other things on this site, and to my frustration, the one I want isn't there. I know the first verse goes something like,
"Well she leaned her back against a thorn I'm after a version with the fine flowers and green leaves lines - could any of you wonderful people furnish me with this? It might well be out there under other names - I'm sure I've heard it called "Fine flowers in the valley" if that helps. |
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26 Mar 02 - 08:38 AM (#676495) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: GUEST,DMcG I certainly have this - if no-one else responds I will dig the words out this evening (UK time!) |
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26 Mar 02 - 08:41 AM (#676498) Subject: Lyr Add: FINE FLOWERS IN THE VALLEY From: Scabby Douglas http://www.contemplator.com/folk4/fineflwr.html has: Which is usually thought to be one of the Scots variants..
She sat down below a thorn, Cheers Steven |
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26 Mar 02 - 08:42 AM (#676499) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: masato sakurai This is probably the one asked for. ~Masato
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26 Mar 02 - 08:44 AM (#676502) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: Diva And its in James Reeds Border Ballads...the same version. I've just done The Cruel Mother for a presentation on my Perspectives on Modern Scotland course. Diva |
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26 Mar 02 - 08:55 AM (#676511) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: masato sakurai Three CDs containing "Fine Flowers in the Valley " are available from Amazon (Bitter Ballads-Ancient & Modern ~ by Hillier, Lawrence-King; Shantalla; Richard Dyer-Bennet 1). ~Masato
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26 Mar 02 - 08:59 AM (#676514) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: Hecate many thanks for those - thinking about it I'm sure I heard a final verse in which the ghost child pronounces "it's me for heavan and you for hell." I don't suppose anyone know a version with that in? It never ceases to amaze me how many versions of any given song there seem to be about there. |
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26 Mar 02 - 09:08 AM (#676521) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: MMario Child 20M ends with: But we are in the heavens high, [And far frae the loch o the Loanie ] But ye hae the pains o hell to die. [Before ye leave the green-wood sidie] Version 20H has near the end: Whaten a place hae ye prepard for me? Heavens for us, but hells for thee.
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26 Mar 02 - 03:57 PM (#676798) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: Bearheart Very interested in this. Where did you find it/who recorded it? Been singing a Canadian version that Ian and Sylvia did years ago, and a variant on the theme by Gordeana McColloch. I like to collect different versions, and this reads beautifully... Would like to get the music... Bekki |
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26 Mar 02 - 04:13 PM (#676806) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: Giac Bearheart -- If you follow the link that Masato gave above, it will take you to the Contemplator site and a midi will begin to play when the page opens. Good luck, Mary |
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27 Mar 02 - 08:51 AM (#677299) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: Hecate I have heard a few versions here and there - mostly I can't remember where. I've heard Trefor and Vikci Williams sing it live, Uk based duo, but they aren't the only ones, and I'm not sure who I heard with the extra verse. Sorry I can't be more helpful. |
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27 Mar 02 - 09:58 AM (#677346) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: Malcolm Douglas The set quoted by Doug from Lesley Nelson's site (see Masato's link above) is taken from F.J. Child's English and Scottish Popular Ballads, being his example B. Child got it from Johnson's The Scots Musical Museum (1787-), where a traditional source was not named, though Walter Scott (Minstrelsy of the Scottish Borders, 1803) quotes a close 5-stanza variant, without refrain, saying, "A fragment... which I have often heard sung in my childhood". According to Buchan and Hall's The Scottish Folksinger (1973) the tune also comes from SMM, but as I inadvertently omitted to copy the relevant section of Bronson, I can't confirm that at present. The new edition of Child gives that tune with example L (another Fine Flowers variant), deriving from Smith's Scottish Minstrel, and includes no tune for B.
I put a reasonably exhaustive list of links to this and to other variants and related material available at reliable websites in this earlier thread: The Cruel Mother The two American examples, both Down By the Greenwood Side variants, at the Max Hunter Folk Song Collection were not, I think, available at that time.
The song persists in tradition to this day, and has also been very popular with revival singers over the last forty years or so, so identifying that final verse might not be easy. |
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09 Apr 02 - 05:45 AM (#686003) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: rich-joy Scottish singer, Barbara Dickson, did a nice version of "Fine Flowers in the Valley" on her 1972 Decca album entitled "From the Beggar's Mantle ... Fringed With Gold" ~ she used Gavin Greig's "Last Leaves of Traditional Ballads" as a source ... Cheers! R-J |
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09 Apr 02 - 06:06 PM (#686557) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: GUEST,julia Does anyone know a cruel mother that starts "there was a lady lived in NY" instead of York? I have it pretty much from my dad but he doesn't remember the source and there are some shady parts... Might be called Holy and Lonely |
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09 Apr 02 - 06:23 PM (#686568) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: Malcolm Douglas It's here in the Database; typing lady lived in new york or similar into the very useful "Digitrad and Forum Search" box on the main Forum page brings it up straight away. THE CRUEL MOTHER (4) |
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09 Apr 02 - 06:25 PM (#686570) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: GUEST,CraigS Very closely related to The Well Below the Valley - recorded by Planxty, ca 1974 Seven years a bird in the wood Seven years a fish in the stream Seven years to ring at the bell And seven years to burn in hell At the well below the valley - o Green grow the lilies - o Right among the bushes - o There are lots of Irish versions of the Cruel Mother, but not many written down or printed because most involve incestuous relationships. |
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09 Apr 02 - 06:59 PM (#686589) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: Malcolm Douglas The Well Below the Valley, to which I referred in the list of links I mentioned earlier, is not a Cruel Mother (Child #20) variant but a traditional form of The Maid and the Palmer (Child #21); they do have motifs in common, of course. It's been recorded from tradition only once in Ireland, from John Reilly, though obviously it must have had some currency before then. The two texts in Child are from England and Scotland. I don't know of any Cruel Mother variants (Irish or otherwise) involving incest, though a number of other songs deal with it. |
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09 Apr 02 - 07:12 PM (#686599) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: Susanne (skw) Mick West does a very good version on his first CD, 'Fine Flowers and Foolish Glances' (1995). He says he learned it from Archie Fisher, and gives SMM as the source. |
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10 Apr 02 - 02:59 PM (#687249) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: Susanne (skw) Mick West does a very good version on his first CD, 'Fine Flowers and Foolish Glances' (1995). He says he learned it from Archie Fisher, and gives SMM as the source. |
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10 Apr 02 - 03:09 PM (#687260) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: Susanne (skw) Oops! My PC said I couldn't get through last night! (Just a sly way of refreshing the thread, actually ...) |
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10 Apr 02 - 05:25 PM (#687353) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: GUEST The 'York' and 'New York' versions stem from the original English broadside version, "The Duke's Daughter's Cruelty". It's in the Scarce Songs 2 file at www.erols.com/olsonw. Child found it after Vol. I was published and it's Child# 20N in the 'Additions and Corrections' in Vol. II.
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28 Feb 03 - 11:00 PM (#900855) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: GUEST,maud@stanford.edu I have a pirate tape of Irish songs off an old LP--Male and female singer in close harmony. The verses are a little different than anything I've seen on this site. The mother comits suicide with her baby, and there is no mention of posthumous punishment.Can anyone help me locate lyrics, discography? There were three sisters going to school all round (?) the Lorry-oh they saw a lady by a pool down by the greenwood side-oh She held a baby on her knee.. and a cruel.... She held the baby to her heart... she said, "Dear baby, we soon must part... She held the baby to her breast.. She said, "Dear baby, we'll both find rest... There is a river, wide and deep all round the Lorry-o And there both mother and baby sleep Down by the greenwood side Oh |
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25 May 05 - 07:54 AM (#1492735) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: GUEST,Allen You can listen to a beautiful rendition on the Shantalla website: http://www.shantalla.com |
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26 May 05 - 02:08 AM (#1493411) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: Malcolm Douglas Maud's question seems to have been missed first time around (I assume that Allen's post isn't in answer to it, as Shantalla play an arrangement of a quite different, Scottish form of the song). Two years on is rather late, but since this thread is back from the dead anyway I may as well make a stab at an answer. Peg and Bobby Clancy would seem possible; they sang a form of the song, All Around the Loney-O, beginning "There were two sisters going to school", which appeared originally(?) on Traditional Songs of Ireland, Olympic OL 6172 (1960s some time; Seamus Ennis also recorded Bobby singing it on his own for the BBC in 1960) and later on various compilations. The Makem website mentions Irish Folk Airs: The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem & Their Families (Tradition 2083) and The Clancy Brothers and Tommy Makem with Their Families (Hallmark CHM 630). I haven't heard the recording, of course, so I don't know how close it might be to Maud's recollection, or whether it was what she was thinking of at all, but it seems a reasonable starting point. Somebody round here must have it. Comments? |
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26 May 05 - 06:05 AM (#1493468) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: GUEST,Paul Burke A rather comedown version used by my mother and her friends for a dancing game (no details) in the 1920s, at Agecroft west of Manchester. A dreadful retribution for illicit sex and child murder becomes a safety warning about the use of knives: There was a lady dressed in green Airey-airey-aye-do There was a lady dressed in green Down by the river side-o She had a baby in her arms Airey-airey-aye-do She had a baby in her arms Down by the river side-o She had a penknife in her hand Airey-airey-aye-do She had a penknife in her hand Down by the river side-o She stuck the knife in the baby's arm Airey-airey-aye-do She stuck the knife in the baby's arm Down by the river side-o |
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26 May 05 - 06:13 AM (#1493470) Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Help:Cruel Mother varient From: GUEST,Allen Sounds like Weila-Waliah (sp?). |
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11 May 08 - 08:06 PM (#2337982) Subject: RE: Cruel Mother as sung by Peg & Bob Clancy From: Joybell I've just got hold of the Bob and Peg Clancy recording noted above by Malcolm Douglas. Without adding to the tangle that this song has produced I'll add these comments here. The words are essentially the same as those given by Jimmy C on 28th of Jul 2000 on the thread titled: Penguin: The Cruel Mother (15) Lyr Add: ALL ROUND THE LONEY O. The second line and the title as "All Around the Loney-o", though, and that makes it easier to track down. These lyrics are not given anywhere else online that I can see, although the title is given in several places. Here's the really interesting bit -- The tune is very different from the others I've heard. It's pretty much a simplified version of "Caulter's Candy" sung very slowly. There is a downward swoop in the third line, making that bit slightly different. Sorry to add to the tangles if this is already common knowledge. Cheers, Joy |