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15 Apr 02 - 11:49 AM (#690526) Subject: On Translating from the Geordie From: *#1 PEASANT* In my current study of the Music of Northumbria and specifically Geordie music I have oft to deal with the dialect. It has been interesting to contemplate the role and use of the dialect over time. When I was last in newcastle a time ago it was still used in ordinary speech quite commonly. Formal language was conducted in standard english. News papers, business transactions, at college.... As you look at the work of Joe Wilson and Tommy Armstrong you find dialect appearing in music. Wilson gave his last professional performance in 1874 Armstrong influenced, and inspired by Wilson lived from 1848-1920. Most of Wilson's recitations are in some form of dialect. Wilson's career brought him in and out of printing and pub management/ownership, music hall and roles in the temperance movement. Armstrong unable to work in the pit due to bowlegs became a poet for hire and song writer. It is interesting that armstrong's recitations are firmly in standard english. And several of these have as their subjects local issues. Perhaps we can see here the shrinking of the use of dialect and detect that Armstrong writing most of his songs in it was eventually at least, in his career aware of the secondary status of what was his native tongue. A thought for you..... to .....ponder..... Conrad |
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16 Apr 02 - 03:24 AM (#691040) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: Hrothgar It has to translated from Geordie so that modern Geordies can understand it? |
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16 Apr 02 - 03:45 AM (#691050) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: Jon Bartlett If I remember correctly, the "patter" provided on the Tommy Armstrong Topic album years ago by Killen et al. *was" in dialect. The recitation about "Haak's Men" by John Atlantic Stephenson is surely in dialect. I have it in a 1927 edition of "Tyneside Songs" edited by C.E. Catheside-Warrington. |
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16 Apr 02 - 03:54 AM (#691055) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: GUEST,Boab It's a sad fact that the influence of the mass media and resulting homogenous "culture" is causing a decline in the use of the old dialects. I lived on Tyneside for many years, and became familiar with the quite apparent differences among the dialects of Northumberland. The old "nothumbrian' dialect [ often generalised as "Geordie'],is still fairly commonly heard even among the younger set in the country areas---particularly around Rothbury, and the North Tyne area [Kathy Tickell country]. On south Tyne from Haltwhistle to Haydon Bridge to Hexham to Prudhoe there is a fairly gradual "intensification" of the Geordie dialect. These areas, however, are among those suffering most from "homogenisation". The accent will always be there, but the old words ["yag", "joogle", "marra"----] are going out of use. Pity. |
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16 Apr 02 - 06:45 AM (#691129) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: JudeL A couple of years ago we bought a CD "Along the Coaly Tyne" which is a combined reissue of the records "Northumbrian Garland " and "Stootin' Doon the Waall" (and no I haven't mistyped the titles) - after listening to it I had to ask for a translation from Paul (a "true" Geordie from Gateshead - who wouldn't thank anyone for confusing him with a "Maccam", "Smogmonster" or "Monkeyhanger") The accents on this CD are so broad that it almost sounds like another language entirely. |
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16 Apr 02 - 07:47 AM (#691160) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: *#1 PEASANT* There is a difference in context between the "patter" or recitation in the middle and end of songs and the streight recitation-for example see the ones I recently posted. The recitation included in songs is in "pitmanic" dialect but the full recitations are in standard english. I wonder also how the publishing process has interfered by trying to make songs easier to read by the "Maccam's" and "cockneys" Conrad |
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16 Apr 02 - 05:52 PM (#691507) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: Shields Folk Boab, Kathryn Tickell went to the same school as me. Do you mean North Tyneside when you say the North Tyne area? |
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16 Apr 02 - 06:01 PM (#691520) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: Dave the Gnome Maccams ain't Geordies, Conrad - I'm not from thereabouts mysen' but have heard the arguements prevail!!! Be careful when you use the terms! I had, still have in fact, a mate called Mike who was in the army for a while. He swears that while in basic training he was billeted with a Geordie and Cornishman. He reckons he could understand both of them and they could both understand him (being from the county Paletine, Lancashire) but they could not understand a word each other was saying and he had to translate! For such a little country we don't half have some different tongues... Way up, surry. DtG |
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16 Apr 02 - 09:18 PM (#691662) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: *#1 PEASANT* Of course Maccams ain't geordies! That was the point! I said that publishers may have changed the words from dialect to standard to suit those who were not Geordies or what is worse- Cockneys! Conrad |
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16 Apr 02 - 09:51 PM (#691686) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: toadfrog What a frustrating thread! All in-jokes, but not a word on how to translate! |
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17 Apr 02 - 05:10 AM (#691877) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: GUEST,Boab Shieldsfolk--by North Tyne area I mean Barrasford, Wark, Bellingham and all the countryside around. And I believe Kathryn has been known to gi'e her bellows a squeeze in the Black Bull in Wark village, where I used to make noises wi' the accordion now and again. Some rare old times yonder! What school did you attend? |
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17 Apr 02 - 09:13 AM (#692014) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: GUEST,Stringman And what is wrong wiv us cocknays just cos wiv don't tald as you shud I wanner know what is rong wiv us.:) |
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17 Apr 02 - 09:23 AM (#692028) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: Shields Folk I'm just winding you up Boab, I knew where you ment. She must have spent some time in civilisation though but because last year (or was it the year before) at the fish quay festival she said she had been to school in shields. |
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17 Apr 02 - 11:41 AM (#692155) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: *#1 PEASANT* The cockneys of lunnen the worst of the worst! Conrad |
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17 Apr 02 - 12:32 PM (#692220) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: JudeL Sorry Toadfrog - didn't mean to be obscure .. for those in areas other than the UK I'll have a go at explaining(and if I'm wrong I apologise and I'm sure someone will correct any inaccuracies): Newcastle upon Tyne is a big place by the coast in north east England, within this the area just north of the river Tyne is called Gateshead and people from that area are called Geordies, the area south of that river is Sunderland, and people from there are known as Maccams. Just south of the mouth of the river is South Shields. About 40 miles or so south is a place called Harlepool, others from the area tend to call them monkey-hangers. Folklore has it that during the Napoleonic war the people of British West Harlepool, once tried, convicted and hung as a French spy, a monkey that they found on board a ship. Smog-monsters refers to people from Middlesboro' which is another 20 miles or so south of Hartlepool. I hope that helps. |
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17 Apr 02 - 12:56 PM (#692243) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: JudeL Sorry - himself is now home and has told me I got it wrong, Newcastle is the bit north of the river Tyne, Gateshead is on the south bank of the Tyne, people from both of these areas are commonly known as Geordies, about 12 miles south of them is Sunderland which straddles the river Wear, and they are known as Mackams. People from South Shields are called sand-dancers. The rest he grudgingly admits is about right. Well what do I know - I'm Welsh. |
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17 Apr 02 - 02:11 PM (#692284) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha Conrad and Co, I worked in Sunderland during the late 1950s for about four years and always took a keen interest in the local dialect. In all my time in the Sunderland, area I never heard the word Mackam describe anyone from Sunderland, was this descripition used of late, to decribe Sunderland football fans?.Ard Mhacha.
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17 Apr 02 - 07:01 PM (#692411) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: Snuffy The story I've heard is that whereas the Geordies (Tynesiders) say "myek" (=English make), the Wear Waterers say "mak". Maccams are those "mak 'em and tak 'em" . |
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18 Apr 02 - 03:02 AM (#692630) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: GUEST,Boab Why, Southshields, Ah divvn't knaa aboot that, Man! Nivor met her, but a canny lass be aal accoonts. |
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18 Apr 02 - 03:07 AM (#692634) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: GUEST,Boab "How Boab---thou cannot bliddy read, Man! Give ower wi' the "Southshields" stuff---"Shields folk' is me name"" Sorry Marra! Boab |
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18 Apr 02 - 04:26 PM (#693095) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: GUEST,TWOODNUT If you want to translate from the "geordie" into "english" then I sugest you ask a "geordie". I once had a book written by a fella who used to do the gobbin' on Up North - Tyne Tees Television Nevil..... whats his name?, called "Larn yesel geordie" which was a parody of the northeast dialect and the way of life, however not very helpful to you but quite a good laugh in its day. I was born and raised in Sunderland but left for work when the shipyards went down in the late seventies. I never knew the term "mackum" then or I think I may have heard it occasionaly.Then, all from the northeast were known as "geordies" snuffy - your are right about where "mackem" comes from the dialect is diferent but only noticable by outsiders,then the dielect is diferent in every town and village throught the region and I can tell a South Shields dielect from a Newcastle Dielect a mile off. So where does "sand dancers" come from? The name "Geordies" originates from the mines and the use of the safety lamp. George Stephenson a well known scientist of laterdays invented such a thing and all the miners used it.Then came along a fella who invented another safety lamp, The Davey lamp, miners across the country thought the Davey lamp the best but the northeast mines stuck with the "Geordie lamp" hence the name "Geordies". If history serves me well there were coal mines from Hartlepool to Morpeth and beyond so folks from County Durham and Northumberland are and were known as "Geordies" and never a mention of "mackums" or "monkeyhangers" I think "mackem" is a trible name for football suporters wishing to have a seporate identity from the rest. Ironicaly I attendeded a folk club in Washington CD(County Durham) every Saturday without fail, (did a couple of floor spots on residends nights)it was called the "Davey Lamp Folk Club",(got that wrong didn't they) wonder if its still going, hope so |
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18 Apr 02 - 05:17 PM (#693132) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: John Routledge TWOODNUT - I think the Tyne-Tees guy was called Mike Neville. Scott Dobson was also involved in the production of the Geordie guides icluding "Larn Yersel Geordie" as was I think Dick Irwin. Very funny indeed at the time. The Davey Lamp FC has just won BBC Radio Folk Club of the Year - It is indeed alive and well. I only heard the word Makem about four years ago - Serves me right for moving away in 1971. Cheers. |
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18 Apr 02 - 06:06 PM (#693170) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: Herga Kitty I thought monkeyhangers referred specifically to Hartlepool, and the legend /song that during the Napoleonic Wars a monkey found on the beach at Hartlepool was hung as a French spy. "Old folks, young folks, everyone and each, come and see the Frenchie that's landed on the beach.." |
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18 Apr 02 - 06:28 PM (#693183) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: Herga Kitty In the words of Jez Lowe, "Mike Neville said it, so it must be true". I thought "Makem" meant Tommy and Sarah... |
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18 Apr 02 - 06:59 PM (#693211) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: TWOODNUT JOHN ROUTLEDGE MIKE NEVILLE - THATS HIM I REMEMBER NOW, AND HIS MATE SCOTT DOBSON I MOVED AWAY IN 1979 I NOW LIVE WITH THE COCKNEYS IN LUNDUN. HERGA KITTY - I ALSO REMEMBER THE SONG ABOUT THE MONKEY AND HARTLEPOOL I CAN REMEMBER A SINGER IN THE DAVEY LAMP F.C. SINGING THE SONG......VIN GARBUTT .....WHAT AN ENTERTAINER. WHATS HAPPENED TO HIM? JOHN ROUTLEDGE I AM SO OUT OF TOUCH. I AM SO PLEASED TO HEAR THAT THE DAVEY LAMP IS DOING SO WELL. I MUST VISIT. IS IT STILL IN THE ARTS CENTRE AT BIDDICK? I AM HAVING SUCH A NOSTALGIA TRIP!!!!!! CHEERS! |
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18 Apr 02 - 07:21 PM (#693231) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: John Routledge TWOODNUT - Davey Lamp is still indeed in Arts Centre at Biddick - not that it needs a plug from me :0) Vin Garbutt is performing as well as ever and has an active touring schedule. There was a fairly recent thread about the Hartlepool Monkey but title has gone from my mind!! Get yourself to the 40th anniversary of Birtley Folk Club on 8 May - That will be nostalgia anonymous. I am going over from Manchester. Cheers |
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19 Apr 02 - 11:50 AM (#693771) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: JudeL From Paul on Jude's cookie, I was born on Pelaw Shore in 51. I first heard of Makems from my brother (a pitman) when he moved from Wardley Collery to Boldon Collery which is about half way between Newcastle and Sunderland in about 1962.Then I started to hear it more often when I joined the RAF in 1970 from a lad from Sunderland, who said he wasn't a Geordie but a Mackem. Football fans being what they are today have probably halflifted the phase for their own purposes.Many of the younger generation get quite upset if you start getting their roots mixed up.As for myself I am a Geordie first and last but 'British' on me passport much to my disgust. |
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19 Apr 02 - 08:36 PM (#694068) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: toadfrog I had always been told they got the name "Geordie" from the Scots, because of their notorious Whig sentiments. If, as I suspect, this is a Geordie song, that would tend to bear the rumor out. |
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20 Apr 02 - 06:21 AM (#694220) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha. I was always told by Newcastle people that one of the nutty King Georges being worried about the border wars, wanted it confirmed that the Northumbrians were loyal to the throne. He was happy when it was confirmed that " they were true Geordies". Thus the name stuck. Ard Mhacha.
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20 Apr 02 - 01:17 PM (#694410) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: Shields Folk If you new anything about history you would know that the border wars stopped long before any King George. |
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20 Apr 02 - 01:25 PM (#694414) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: Shields Folk Ok "knew anything" The King George reference to Geordies is in relation to the Jacobite rebellion, Northumberland was said to be a Jacobite stronghold. The populace of Tyneside were said to be behind King George. However it is more likely that Geordie is used in relation to George Stephenson and his accent when speaking to a parliamentary committee. |
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20 Apr 02 - 04:03 PM (#694481) Subject: RE: BS: On Translating from the Geordie From: GUEST,Ard Mhacha Shields Folk, Keep your shirt on, your neighbours up the road were my infomants, too bad if they were wrong, and was "go to Shields" a subsitute for Hell?. Ard Mhacha |