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19 Apr 02 - 09:35 PM (#694095) Subject: Greensleeves 2 From: McGrath of Harlow Since Greg Stephen's TV computer can't thread long treads, and he seemed interested in this one, here is a new thread. Starting with a copy of all the posts after he dropped out:
Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name? From: greg stephens Date: 15-Mar-02 - 03:07 AM GUEST you didn't get my point. My ntl cable tv Internet system doesn't let me access threads once they get about 40 messages long. I wont be able to get on by the time I've checked my references.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name? From: GUEST Date: 15-Mar-02 - 05:53 PM Then start a new thread.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name? From: GUEST Date: 15-Mar-02 - 06:07 PM I didn't say Greensleeves was mentioned before 1580, i said there is some evidence to place it earlier,not very conclusive you can make up your own mind. I cant transmit music,except by post so send me your address by PM.Or come round, depending where you are.It is called "Kiss my arse" in various sources, fiddlers MSS and I think also dance tune publications as well, though I haven't got a copy in front of me right now. Kind of busy with gigs now, I will return!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name? From: Genie Date: 20-Mar-02 - 10:51 PM I kinda like leeneia's theory, too. Makes a lot of sense (though some of the others are quite amusing or titillating!). Genie
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name? From: Malcolm Douglas Date: 21-Mar-02 - 09:53 AM Shop: Henry VIII , Edward Greensleeves persists in tradition as a Morris tune, usually in modal form. Kick My Arse is one name under which it has been found; as such, Cecil Sharp noted it in Wyresdale, Lancashire. Here is an .abc from Richard Robinson's Tune book: X:1 T:Greensleeves T:Kick my arse R:Jig M:6/8 N:The tune for the Wyresdale "Old man's dance" collected by Cecil Sharp. K:Em c2c cde | d2B G2B | c2A ABc | B2G E2B | c2c cde | d2B G2B | cBA BAG | A3 A3 :| |:g2g gfe | d2B G2f | g2g gfe | a2f d2f | g2g gfe | d2B G2B | cBA BAG | A3 A3 :| As to the possible existence of the tune prior to 1580, Claude M. Simpson (The British Broadside Ballad and Its Music, 1966) had this to say: "...The Lord of Lorne and the False Steward, licensed on October 6, 1580, is to be sung to Greensleeves or Greensleeves and Pudding-pies in seventeenth-century issues, the earliest that have survived... Chappell (Popular Music of the Olden Time I, 228) suggests that the ballad and hence the tune may be older, quoting the Satyra Prima of Edward Guilpin's Skialetheia, or a Shadowe of Truth, 1598: Yet, like th'olde Ballad of the Lord of Lorne, Whose last line in King Harries days was born... But though the ballad were familiar in the time of Henry VIII, we may not conclude that the tune Greensleeves is of equal antiquity, for we cannot be sure that The Lord of Lorne was originally sung to the tune. What we do know is that editions of the second half of the seventeenth century call for the tune. An earlier version in the Percy Folio MS is without tune direction." As has already been mentioned, Greensleeves was the big hit of 1580, rapidly spawning a whole series of spin-offs; Shakespeare mentions it in two of his plays. By the end of the 16th century, the term was "a metaphor for a handsomely dressed woman, or more usually a courtesan". Musicians from a number of countries enjoyed brief vogues at the Elizabethan court; there is no evidence of any Irish connection in this case. It is probably also unwise to try to read too much into what is not, after all, a very complex song. The full text, and further information, can be seen in the Greensleeves History of thread.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name? From: GUEST,leeneia Date: 21-Mar-02 - 02:40 PM I'm pleased to see that two percipient folk like my theory that it's a corruption of a Gaelic phrase including "slieve," (mountain). Right on! Meanwhile, if you are getting sick of Greensleeves, find yourself the Playford dance tune "Daphne" and play that. It's similar to Greensleeves and well worth doing.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name? From: Penny S. Date: 21-Mar-02 - 03:13 PM I was at college with a Bullen (this has nothing to do with the music) who, as I recall, said that the family tradition was that the finger abnormality recurred. Penny This does have the touch of urban myth doesn't it. Truth to tell, I can't remember her exact words.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name? From: GUEST Date: 21-Mar-02 - 03:33 PM Shop: Diana A pleasant new ballad of Daphne. When Daphne did from faire Phoebus flie the West winde mist sweetly Did blow in her face: Her silken Scarfe scarce shaddowed her eyes, The God cried, O pitie, and held her in chace, Stay Nimph, Stay Nimph, cries Apollo, Tarry and turn thee, sweet Nimph stay, Lion nor Tyger dothe thee follow; Turne thy faire eyes and look this away, O turn, O prettie sweet, And let our red lips meet: Pittie O Daphne, pittie O pittie me. pittie O Daphne pitties me . She gaue no care unto his cry, But still did neglect him the more he did mone, He still did entreat, she still did denie, And earnestly prayes him to leaue her alone. Neuer neuer cryes Apollo, Unlesse to loue thou do consent: But still with my voice so hollow, Ile crie to thee while life be spent, But if thou turne to me, I will praise thye felicitie Pitty O Daphne, pittie O me, pitty O Daphne, pitty me. Away like Uenus Doue she flies, The red blood her buskins did run all adowne, He Plaintiffe loue she now denies Crying, help help Diana and saue my renowne; Wanton wanton lust is neare me. Cold and chast Diana aid, Let the earth a Virgin beare me: Or deuoure me quick a maid: Diana heard her pray, And turned her to a Bay. Pittie O Daphne, pittie, O pittie me, pitty O Daphne, pittie me. Amazed stood Apollo then, When he beheld Daphne turn'd as she desired, Accurst I am aboue Gods and men, With griefe and laments my sences are tired. Farwel false Daphne most unkinde, My loue is buried in this graue, Long haue I sought louv, yet loue could not finde, Therefore this is my Epitaph This tree doth Daphne couer, That never pitied lover, Farwell false Daphne that would not pittie me though not my Loue, yet art thou my Tree. X:103 T:B103- Daphne Q:1/4=120 L:1/4 M:6/4 K:Dm d|F2GA2d|^c3/2d/2ed2A|cAFGEC|DFE D2 d|F2GA2d|^c3/2d/2ed2A|cAFGEC|DFED3|:f2fe2e|d2d^c2A|A3/2G/2FE2F|F2EF3:|ccdcAF|ccdgec|A3/2G/2FE2d|d^c2dA2|c3/2B/2AG2D|FE2.D3|]
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name? From: Art Thieme Date: 21-Mar-02 - 08:55 PM Shop: John Henry Alas, the concept of an arsenal being a place where arses are stored---as opposed to putting them in a hollowed depression in the ground ---an arse hole----is not incompatable with the concept of a seminary being a sperm bank where semen is kept (for safe keeping). What that means to this discussion of the nice little tune called "Greensleeves" is as hard to say as, say, the origin of "John Henry". Still, we will belabor this until the cows come home slobbering their mucous even while we spew our music. Yes, we must spend our time on this mortal coil doing something, after all. So the green sleeves in question might just as well be used as they've always been used, as a place to wipe green putrid stuff wherever it's place of origin be---a leaking arse or a new crusty nostril. ----------- This, alone, is the true interpritation. Art Thieme
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name? From: Steve Parkes Date: 22-Mar-02 - 03:16 AM "New crusty nostrils"--I've got all their records!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name? From: Mr Red Date: 22-Mar-02 - 05:33 PM Shop: Henry VIII GUEST Paul Burgess, in answer to a question of Henry VIII's authorship, said "Song appeared later, there was a morris tune called "Greensleeves" known to exist when old Hank was on the throne". The morris tune is only "similar" he said (as is posted above). That concurs with the 1585 publication. Paul is a fine fiddler and FWIW I would expect him to know his violin history too. just a thought but would a violin be the "cyrdd of the devil". "& he danced, danced to the fiddlers tune.... (Stanton Drew in the county of Somerset) Steve Parkes were they in the "Sound of Muccus?" Who nose? Pre cylinder records eh?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name? From: Art Thieme Date: 22-Mar-02 - 05:58 PM Play it on a knows floot. Art
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name? From: Mr Red Date: 23-Mar-02 - 06:44 AM Art not to be sniffed at.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name? From: rich-joy Date: 23-Mar-02 - 07:13 AM Shop: Henry VIII I'd heard that "Greensleeves" was Originally a Waits Carol ... how does this tie in with the Henry VIII timing ??? Cheers! R-J
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name? From: Brían Date: 23-Mar-02 - 11:20 AM I recall reading in the glossary of a book of Folk Songs of the Miramachi, John Bonyan was quoted as saying that the reference to green in a song often refers to the woman being unfaithful. If that is true, Greensleeves referring to a prostitute or a coutesan wouldn't be far from the truth. I like the idea of Greensleeves being a corruption of Irish, but I frankly don't see anything to back it up. The tune Cúnnla, otherwise known as The Frieze Britches is supposed to be sung to a varation of Greensleeves, though I don't see the resemblance. There do, however seem to be a number of tunes going by that name. Sliabh an Ghrian would be Mountain of the Sun, but that would be the opposite of Greensleeves Brían
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name? From: ard mhacha Date: 23-Mar-02 - 02:55 PM Shonagh could be right, when I was at primary school [many moons ago]one of the boys was nicnamed "Greensleeves". With a nose that was constantly running and hankys unheard of, he used his sleeves to good effect. Ard Mhacha.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name? From: GUEST Date: 23-Mar-02 - 03:06 PM Shop: Henry VIII Without evidence that there was a Morris tune called "Greensleeves" in the reign of King Henry VIII, I take that to be just more hogwash.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name? From: GUEST Date: 19-Apr-02 - 03:57 AM I should hope that we don't give this one to Henry VIII. Between creating a church, a condom company (well, kinda), and a place to get a nice divorce, the man doesn't deserve much more to his name.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Post - Top - Forum Home - Translate -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Subject: RE: GREENSLEEVES ... Whence the name? From: Steve Parkes Date: 19-Apr-02 - 05:11 AM He had good calves, though ... |