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BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them

12 May 02 - 12:22 AM (#709308)
Subject: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Troll

I read this story,click here and it started me thinking. Just what is the US obligation to those who try to enter our borders illegally?
I think that we owe them humane treatment, ie. no beatings etc, and a speedy return to their own country. I don't think we owe them welfare, schooling, health care, or anything else.
Opinions?

troll

12 May 02 - 12:25 AM (#709313)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Sorcha

Can of worms.

12 May 02 - 02:44 AM (#709337)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Ebbie

Worms, indeed.

It seems obvious that some American lawyers have jumped onto the case(s), motivated by what is not clear. (Right.)

It is Mexico that should be going after and bringing to justice the 'guides' who are taking money from desperate and determined people. If Mexico does not see fit to prosecute the guides, then I think the U.S. should file federal complaints against Mexico in the name of the fallen ones.

There is no way that this country can provide water every 10 miles or so- those distances are vast. And very, very dry.

That said, I'm glad the U.S. makes an effort not only to keep water available where possible but marks the spots. If I ever find myself stranded on the desert I would want to know where I might possibly find water. On the other hand, if I'm stranded and on foot, I'm probably not going to be able to walk 30 miles without water even if I knew in what direction to go.

12 May 02 - 01:49 PM (#709551)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: McGrath of Harlow

Did the people who founded America enter it legally? "Pull up the the ladder Jack, I'm all right."

"Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me, I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

12 May 02 - 01:49 PM (#709552)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: McGrath of Harlow

Did the people who founded America enter it legally? "Pull up the the ladder Jack, I'm all right."

"Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed to me,
I lift my lamp beside the golden door!"

12 May 02 - 02:48 PM (#709588)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: mack/misophist

I don't know what it's like in the UK, but in the US, as a practical matter, the law says whatever a lawyer can convince a judge it says. Many lawyers hate the idea but over the years it works out that way. It's called case law and precedent and it's sometimes been the source of very odd decisions; ie. a burgler falling through a rotten skylight on a museum roof and successfully sueing for failure to maintain safe premises. The main topic here is a similar case, so I won't be suprised if the plaintiffs prevail.

12 May 02 - 04:43 PM (#709648)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Amos

According to some folks we owe them for a lot of very advanced technology!! But those are borders we can't patrol worth jack anyway.... :>)

Seriously though, it grieves me terribly every time I compare the current immigration standards and policies with the sentiments cited above by McGrath. I believe the clear and compelling insight into human nature qwhich gave birth to such amazing principles as free press, free speech, the US' Bill of Rights and like sentiments has been seriously chilled and obscured by the corrosive effects of greed and power-manipulation, to the detriment of the whole species.

A

12 May 02 - 06:07 PM (#709700)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Troll

Amos, the people mentioned in the poem were legal immigrants who come through such places as Ellis Island. They registered, and in due time most became citizens. The border jumpers are coming here to take advantage of our system without contributing anything to it. They pay no taxes, but -at least in California I am told- expect to be taken care of as though they were citizens.

troll

12 May 02 - 06:11 PM (#709703)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Celtic Soul

Here are my thoughts.

I have a friend...she's an Aussie. She has lived in this country for many years, has brought her hard earned money and spent it here (purchasing homes, vehicles, etc.), she has been petitioning for citizenship for years and has been put through the paperwork ringer for all that time to no avail. After many years of living here, she met a wonderful man to whom she is now married. I am very glad for her, as she is a wonderful person and deserves the happiness. However, immigration is up their asses in order to "prove" the marriage is legitimate, and not one of convenience.

My vote is that we treat *ALL* potential immigrants the same (regardless of their financial status or what country of origin). Make them all wait the same amount of time to obtain legal citizenry. Make them all jump through the same hoops, or do away with the hoops for everyone. But changing the rules for some is discrimination against the rest.

12 May 02 - 06:39 PM (#709729)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Gareth

Mmmmm! As The McGrath points out - Did Columbus/Cabot/Eric the Red/Prince Llewellyn have passports, green cards, visa's when they arrived ?

I can see it know ! Immigration officials greeting Llewellyn " What is your purpose for entering America ?"

"To overthrow the existing order, colonise, and change the American Way of Life !"

Gareth

12 May 02 - 06:49 PM (#709736)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: artbrooks

An underlying problem with this specific US immigration problem is that we have no rational "guest worker" program, and the people who died in the desert were coming here to do jobs that no "native born" citizen wants to do in the first place. Even when our unemployment rate is high nobody will take field labor jobs or similar positions. A decent guest worker program might take care of both problems at the same time.

That being said, and while I sympathize, I don't think that suing for injuries/death incurred in the commission of a crime (illegal entry) is rational.

12 May 02 - 07:16 PM (#709752)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: InOBU

Well... as far as crime goes, but for a glitch of history, there would be no crime. If they were Canadian native's (many "illegals" are native...) the Jay Treaty would bar the US from impeading their free movement over the boarder. Cheers Larry

12 May 02 - 07:18 PM (#709756)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: McGrath of Harlow

Then there were the Pilgrim Fathers, Captain John Smith and company, Daniel Boone, all those Waggons West pioneers and so on and so forth. Noone asked them to come, and noone asked for their papers either.

The people this is about have had ancestors living in America far longer than the people who object to them coming North.

12 May 02 - 07:26 PM (#709761)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: GUEST

What was that this about "all men being created equal?"

i forget...

12 May 02 - 07:27 PM (#709762)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: InOBU

yup... just that some are more equal than others... Larry

12 May 02 - 07:27 PM (#709763)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Bobert

Artbrooks touched upon an importaat yet overlooked fact that Hispanic workers will do the stuff that the home-growns won't. The incredible economic gains of the last decade were partially fueled by good, cheap labor. Many if not most of the Hispanic laborers can in without papers and wiggled them only after getting to the US. A more liberal "guest worker" program would definately put an end to such stories.

12 May 02 - 11:26 PM (#709888)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Troll

The point is that we don't have a good guest worker program so people try to slip in in order to find work. Kevin, when the Founding Fathers came here, there WAS no immigration policy and no central government so your arguments appear to me to be a bit trollish. What government there was here very often tried to control immigration by killing the immigrants, the Roanoke Colony being a case in point.
These immigrants from Mexico crossed our border illegally. You assume that their ancestors were living in what is now the US prior to - for want of a better date- 1492.
But if their ancestors were Aztec or Mayan, then they NEVER lived in the US. And anyhow, what on earth does where their ancestors lived have to do with the present situation.
Larry, re: the Jay Treaty, even if it were in place on the southern border,it's not germain. We are not impeading their free movement across the border. We just aren't facilitating it.
I cannot see why it should be incumbent upon ANY Government to facilitate the illegal crossing of it's borders for any reason whatsoever. And that's what this thread is really all about.

troll

13 May 02 - 12:20 AM (#709905)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: katlaughing

I agree with you troll...I see no compelling reason that any government should have to anticipate the needs of anyone trying to get into a country illegally. It's almost like telling a shopowner they acted badly by locking theives out. When Europeans first came to North America they certainly didn't have any idea of what they might find and couldn't have had any expectations of someone being here to provide them with water, etc. It was a crapshoot, the same as crossing the border can be in the desert.


13 May 02 - 01:37 AM (#709929)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Ebbie

What makes me unhappy and uncertain in how I should feel about illegal immigrants is that 1st, each country's border is man-made and 2nd, as troll said above, they are looking for work, in other words they are trying either to improve their family's lives or in some cases, simply survive. Just being born in one part of the world and not another should not mean that it determines for all time one's fate. The notion that we all have the means and the right to choose our own place is to me an American trait I'm fond of. The cleaning woman can become a bank president, the 60 year old can attend university and become a teacher...

As for the Aztecs and Mayan peoples, troll, I don't think we need go back that far. What about Texas, California, Arizona, Nevada and Utah as well as parts of New Mexico, Colorado and Wyoming? Full of Mexicans. For a very good reason: they were all part of Mexico.

And as for not paying taxes- I know several people who first came in illegally and now are citizens and who are definitely paying taxes. (In at least one case, he had to return to Mexico and apply for reentry, which was granted, I think, on the basis of his skills.)

13 May 02 - 01:51 AM (#709933)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: GUEST,jj

send em hom

13 May 02 - 01:57 AM (#709935)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)

Sorcha hit the gong with "Can of Worms." Mexican and Central American workers, both legal and illegal, are necessary to pick our fruit and handle much of our vegetable industry. Who shucks the oysters in oyster bars across much of the lower 50? (And do 101 other low-pay tasks). Often Central Americans. Who sews in the sweat shops? Who sweeps the floors and cleans the toilets, etc. etc. In other words, they are necessary for the underbelly of our economy.
In both the USA and Canada, the legal immigrants are those with skills or money and who will not do the nasty jobs.

13 May 02 - 02:20 AM (#709939)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Troll

Ebbie, I have nothing against a man or woman wanting to better his or her condition in life. But there are rules that must be followed by everyone, not just by some.
Kevin was sounding the old "they were here first" line to which I reply, "so what?" We are running things now so "they" can jolly well do it our way. In the final analysis everyones ancestors were immigrants if you go back far enough. His argument (if argument it was) is a red herring.
And as for not paying taxes- I know several people who first came in illegally and now are citizens and who are definitely paying taxes.
The operant word is "citizen". The illegals DON'T pay taxes.
As for the fact that the illegals do the nasty jobs for low wages, maybe if we stopped the flow of illegal workers, the wages would rise for those jobs until some of our chronically unemployed would be willing to do them.
In my opinion, the only thing we owe illegal aliens is a courteous ride back to the border. As long as we have unemployed citizens, Mexico and the rest can keep their border jumpers home.

troll

13 May 02 - 02:32 AM (#709945)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Ebbie

Troll, I suspect you have not lived in the west.

13 May 02 - 03:21 AM (#709959)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Troll

I lived for two years in Utah and have traveled extensively. I am unsure what you mean by that statement.

troll

13 May 02 - 04:24 AM (#709977)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: GUEST,Truthtroller

I think what Ebbie means Troll is that you are a self righteous dick brain.With people like you in the world how will we ever come together. Sorcha was right 'a can of worms' and here they come.

T.T.

13 May 02 - 05:11 AM (#709993)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Hrothgar

...they work their stolen Eden, lost so long ago...

13 May 02 - 05:17 AM (#709996)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: katlaughing

troll's original question seems to be getting lost here...does the US owe it to illegal aliens to provide water stations in the desert?

While the other points being discussed are interesting and of value, imo, it is important to not assign any counter-beliefs to troll as he's been clear about the above query.

13 May 02 - 05:53 AM (#710017)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: InOBU

Is this the best way we can grow our good orchards?
Is this the best way we can gather our crops
To die and be scattered, to rot on the top soil...
to be called by no name, except deportee

What do we owe? We owe what Squanto gave. Squanto was kidnapped to a strange land, England, struggled for decades to get to Spain and be returned to New England, where he found his people gone to the last, and there, he found Europeans starving on what once were his people's fertal fields, and he taught the starving interlopers how to grow food on his raped land, how dare you ask what we owe! Where is your humanity, your decency? Honnor your debt!
Larry

13 May 02 - 07:38 AM (#710090)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: McGrath of Harlow

What I never understand is how it is that freedom of movement for goods and for money is seen as so beneficial it's got to be forced on countries if need be, but at the same time enormous efforts have to be put into stopping freedom of movement for people across artificial borders.

13 May 02 - 07:47 AM (#710099)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: InOBU

I think you are probubly right, Kev... but I have my insular head up my... OH Hey how's the weather over there? It is cold and raining over here! So, why did we come here anyway, we could have had a day like this on your side of the ocean! Chears ol' pal, Larry

13 May 02 - 08:56 AM (#710141)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Troll

Thanks kat but I'm used to truthtroller and his/her/its ilk. They are all for equality until it moves into their neighborhood. The best that they are capable of is a feeble attempt to flame while putting words into someone elses mouth.
Truthtroller, I've known Ebbie for quite a while and she is quite capable of telling me where to get off if she feels it necessary. She is also quite capable of answering her own questions.
Have a nice day.

troll

13 May 02 - 09:05 AM (#710146)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Bobert

Well, troll, not to be overly combative, but what you will find in most cases of illegal aliens is that where they may enter illegally, it doesn't take them too long to get in the system. A signed affidavit from one of their friends saying they are renting is enough to get a driver's license in most states and then a a Social Security card and then you have yet another taxpaying worker. There are not too many businesses that can afford to pay workers in cash because the cash has to come from some place and for an employer to pay $100 in cash will cost him $130 because, unless he is looking to audited by the IRS, he's better be real careful with his 1099's and be sure they are going to bonified sub-contractors. So most of these folks end up paying tax and some, because of fear or lack of knowledge, don't file returns for a few years when since they are at the bottom of the wage scale would be eligible for refunds. This money is a plus I am sure to the Treasury Department. You may ask how I happen to know these things. Well, my business clientel is 80% Hispanic. I have two Hispanic employees. I know what is happening. I see it every work day. I see the pay stubs and I see the with-holdings. Yeah, this may be a little known secret but, by in large, the illegal aliens are good for the business of America. If they weren't then you can bet the ruling class would be squaking...

I realize I have not followed the thread here but felt it important to make these points.

Bobert

13 May 02 - 09:05 AM (#710147)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: guinnesschik

All arguments aside, this country is too easily entered LEGALLY. Why should any human feel the need to make a dangerous crossing when our borders are open? NAFTA saw to that.

In Texas, if you are a migrant worker, you are entitled to immediate welfare programs (such as food stamps) without the usual screening. What are the policies in other border states concerning this?

What we owe the deceased and their families? Not a thing. The Mexican government should go after the guides/smugglers, and make them pay restitution. The USA had nothing to do with those deaths in the desert.

13 May 02 - 09:14 AM (#710152)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Troll

Bobert, thanks a lot for that information. That's the great thing about this Forum. There are people from all walks of life here and a lot of really good info flows through here. I will drop the "they don't pay taxes" bit forthwith. It's good to know when you need to change and being told in a straightforward manner helps to accept that you've been wrong in an assumption.

troll

13 May 02 - 10:38 AM (#710213)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: GUEST,Bapu Hasapeenapetalon

If I was not here what would happen to the Qwikimart?

13 May 02 - 11:45 AM (#710259)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Ebbie

Thanks, Bobert. What you so succinctly said is what I've been trying to say.

13 May 02 - 12:14 PM (#710285)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Lonesome EJ

NAFTA is a pact that makes the border invisible for the flow of trade, primarily enabling US Corporations to locate their manufacturing facilities in Mexico to take advantage of cheap labor and low environmental standards. Recently, Republican Congressional members pushed through a bill to minimize inspection of commercial vehicles between the two countries. The reason was to eliminate a bottleneck in the flow of those manufactured goods. NAFTA obviously has primary benefits for two separate entities : American Corporations, and Mexican employees and employers. Part of NAFTA's appeal was the hope that, by providing additional jobs and income in Mexico, it would slow the pace of illegal immigration. This it has not accomplished, and the influx has continued unabated.

This immigration benefits domestic business in the US, because of the low wage demand made by the workers, and because most employers do not report or tax the earnings, nor do they pay health, etc benefits. I have heard much about the cost to taxpayers of health, education, and welfare services for illegal immigrants and their families, but I have no specifics on that issue, and would appreciate some hard information.

The right of any sovereign nation to guard and maintain a border is without question, and suggestions that we provide supplies to aid illegals in crossing the desert is completely daft. The questions regarding the actual impact of illegal immigration and the intent and success of NAFTA are legitimate and important.

13 May 02 - 03:14 PM (#710404)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Joe Offer

Well, I don't think the lawsuit has a lot of merit, but I do think that if people are dying in the United States, we have a moral obligation to help prevent their death. I don't think the U.S. Government should be required to ensure the safety of people crossing the border illegally - I think that's asking a little too much. On the other hand, if humanitarian groups want to help illegal aliens, the government shouldn't get in the way.

Actually, I think that the U.S. Border Patrol does a pretty good job of this most of the time. They have worked with humanitarian groups to allow the placing of water stations and even shelter, and they have worked to make it less likely that aliens will drown while crossing irrigation canals. More could be done, but isn't that always the case?

The Southern California desert is awesomely beautiful, but it's a very dangerous place. It's impossible to ensure complete safety for those who cross that desert on foot. It's too vast, and too treacherous. The border areas east of California can be even more treacherous.

-Joe Offer in the Sierra Foothills, which can also be a treacherous place-

13 May 02 - 04:49 PM (#710458)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)

The myth persists that if the illegals who do the cheap jobs are kept out, a decent wage will have to be paid to Americans to do those jobs. The increased wages push the jobs AND the factories offshore. Clothing, appliances, etc. that used to be made at home are now made in South Korea, Thailand, Bangladesh.
The illegals obtain the rights of citizens either legally or illegally, but benefit our economy and contribute their share of taxes.
Factories that remain here pay American taxes and otherwise benefit the country.
To add slightly to Bobert's post, Hispanics are 30% or so of the population in California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas. I believe, but haven't checked lately, that 10% of Chicago and 20% of Denver residents are Hispanic. New York? People with a common culture and a common language help each other, and the migrants blend in. Hispanics are an increasing part of the American fabric and this trend is bound to continue and increase.

13 May 02 - 06:24 PM (#710533)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)

I remember an illegal who lived near us when I was in San Antonio (1950s). His children were born in San Antonio. They now have children of their own. Should these grandparents be shipped back south of the border? There are many thousands like him (I know, there was a so-called amnesty, but the percentage who applied- or could apply- was not very large). A new amnesty is needed now; there should be one every 20 years. The sole criterion should be gainful employment in the family.

13 May 02 - 06:48 PM (#710546)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: toadfrog

Dicho, I think you are repeating what was told you, without considering what it means. Jobs that require cheap labor will go offshore, if it is convenient to have them done offshore, and if it is important that those jobs be done.

I think what we owe illegal immigrants who come here to work decent working conditions and something like a decent wage. Contrary to popular belief, I do not believe cheap labor is a particularly great blessing.

Hey, McGrath, I'll be more impressed by all that stuff about how we should allow unlimited immigration when you Brits get a bit less touchy about letting asylum-seekers cross the Channel. Or cut back on the anti-foreigner riots.

Hey, Troll! I think its unfair to call our foreign guests unpatriotic because they don't pay income tas. I think all those persons will gladly pay their income taxes as soon as their employers start reporting and deducting said taxes from their wages, and start paying their Social Security benefits, as we all know those patriotic gentlemen long to do. MSG (medium-sized grin). I'm sure they already pay the sales tax.

13 May 02 - 07:26 PM (#710570)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: katlaughing

Just to make it clear...the better share of my life has been spent surrounded by and enjoying the various cultures of Spanish-speaking peoples, esp. growing up in Western Colorado. My second mom is Mexican-American, as is my second family. I was only addressing troll's original question about whether our country owed water stations to the illegal aliens who died in the crossing. I don't have any gripe about illegal aliens working here nor the other points which folks have brought up.

kat

13 May 02 - 07:59 PM (#710590)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Lonesome EJ

kat, I don't think objecting to the entry of illegal aliens is the equivalent of anti-Mexican, anti-Arab, anti-Irish or anti-any-other-nationality-or-race sentiment. Canada guards their border to the States and prevents illegal entry by US Nationals when possible. So does every other country that I'm aware of. I believe factors such as contraband, illegal flight, the spread of disease, and intention of sabotage are very legitimate reasons for border control. In addition, illegal immigrants using taxpayer-funded benefits intended for citizens MAY be an issue, although I have seen no hard evidence of this. Racism or anti-nationalism could also be involved, but in that case, the same accusation could be launched against every country on earth who controls its border.

Your previous statement was a reasonable one, and implies no anti-Hispanic feeling. I hope you see my view in a similar light.

13 May 02 - 10:18 PM (#710635)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Troll

Toadfrog, I never said they were unpatriotic. How could they be either patriotic OR unpatriotic. They aren't citizens. This isn't their country. Their employers cannot deduct Social Security from their wages. They don't have Social Security numbers.
According to Bobert, they do acquire SS#'s and the employers do deduct the necessaries from their wages. Bobert pointed this out to me and I thanked him for the information. Read Boberts post of 13-May-02 @ 0905 and my answer to it.

troll

13 May 02 - 10:33 PM (#710639)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)

A few figures on the size of the problem. The United States Immigration Dept. figures extimate 5 million illegal immigrants, resident in the United states, 4 million of these from the western hemisphere. The rate of growth is about 275000 per year. Fifty-four percent are from Mexico. They make up 1.9% of the population. These figures from the 1996 estimates, the last available (still quoted in the 1999 reports). Two million reside in California. Texas, New York, Florida, Illinois, New Jersey, and Arizona account for 80%
Some US citizens emmigrate. In the period 1981-1990, 7 million immigrants came, while 1.6 million Americans left.
A recent article in the Houston Chronicle emphasizes the importance of illegals to their economy. Among the benefits: Lower home prices because of the numbers in the construction industry. Lower restaurant and grocery prices because of the illegals in those industries.
Surveys show that over half of the voters favor legalizing undocumented workers who can prove they've been living in the United States, working at a job and paying taxes. (This estimate may not be based on reliable sampling).
A pastor at a Houston Catholic church says "They live in your neighborhood, they work with you, they work building roads and buildings, their kids go to school with ours." Many have been in Houston for more than a decade.
Surveys show that people think the most important criterion for legalization is that immigrants pay regular taxes.
The United States Internal Revenue Service says it has issued 4.5 million taxpayer identification numbers (2002 figures). The program started six years ago to prevent illegal immigrants from using stolen social security numbers to apply for work. These numbers work as identification. A taxman with the IRS says "Under the privacy act we are not allowed to divulge any type of information to anybody. Not to another agency, not to you, not to anybody." This report put together by Jason Whitely, KHOU, Houston, April 5, 2002.
The AFL-CIO is calling for amnesty. Many businesses back this call because of the current shortage of workers.
To go back to Troll's initial question, what is our obligation? Clearly, the problem is a very complex one, particularly in the light of the IRS semi-legalization of these workers by providing them with identification by which they can enter the labor force where they are badly needed.

13 May 02 - 10:37 PM (#710642)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)

Curiosity about a small point raised by the patriotic-unpatriotic non-issue. At one time an immigrant could gain citizenship by entering the US Army. I would guess that this avenue is no longer open.

13 May 02 - 10:43 PM (#710646)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: JamesJim

I say, let them all in.

We are a caring and benevolent society. Each of us should be required to take a minimum of 2 illegals into our homes and provide them free room and board. The more land, or bigger the home, the more your requirement should be. They should be able to stay as long as they like. We should be required to help them find a job and if we can't find them one in a reasonable period, we should give them ours and start hunting a new one. If they'd like to go to school, we should pay the tuition. If they need transportation, they should have the right to drive our automobile or truck any time they like. If they buy one, they needn't license it or pay taxes on it. We should be required to cover them under our health insurance and we should pay the increased premium. We should not be able to claim them in any way as dependent and they should pay no taxes of any kind. We are a benevolent people and we need to show it in a real way.

Think about it!

Jim

14 May 02 - 08:01 AM (#710745)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: GUEST,Man with long hair smoking funny tobacco

Wow man! Do you know Dionne Warwick??

14 May 02 - 04:37 PM (#710901)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: mack/misophist

Dicho: I think you'll find that route to citizenship applied only to resident aliens. Because of a treaty there was a special provision for Philippinos to join the US Navy, but only as stewards. It may still apply. One of the most popular teachers in my high school was an Englishman who was drafted by both sides at the same time. He decided to remain English.

14 May 02 - 04:44 PM (#710910)
Subject: RE: BS: Illegal Aliens: What do we owe them
From: katlaughing

Of course I do, LeeJ...pretty much in agreement with you on most of it. I just wanted to be sure everyone understood what I'd said. Thanks for commenting on how it was perceived.