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17 May 02 - 09:19 AM (#712267) Subject: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: wysiwyg So..... how do you figure out how much to ask for doing workshops, especially if you have no CD to sell at the event? Such as-- on gospel music and spirituals.... for churches and schools... very participatory.... using handouts and bringing along song samples to hear as well as playing/songleading.... help... I've done OTHER kinds of workshops (non-musical) from short talks to 3-day events, but this.... help... ... and in the case of churches, their frame of reference appears to be guest organist fees, or guest preachers, or lay ministry trainers.... help... How do I get paid for being a student passing on what I am learning, and without being an expert? ~Susan |
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17 May 02 - 09:29 AM (#712272) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: MMario I would think you would be at least equivilant to supply clergy! (the per diem plus mileage) - I've never seen any sort of schedule for guest organist - so don't have a frame of reference for that... |
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17 May 02 - 10:11 AM (#712280) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: wysiwyg $100 is upper midrange, plus expenses. (supply clergy, whaddaya nuts??????) I may be having some feelings about all this. (terror, and so forth) ~Susan |
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17 May 02 - 10:17 AM (#712283) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: Jim Krause The short answer is: Whatever the market will bear. But that doesn't help you much. I'd agree with MMario about the per diem plus mileage. You should at least get that. As to presenting yourself as a student rather than an expert, your workshop participants will think what they will in spite of your efforts to the contrary. Just present what you have, and let it go at that. There is no end to learning. (Isn't that one of the quotes from Solomon?) Let us know how the workshop turned out. |
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17 May 02 - 10:30 AM (#712289) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: MMario Hey - it's the fee schedule I have some acquaintance with! But - consider this - years ago the recomended fee to have a lay person lead a single service (In our diocese) was $80 plus mileage. (Actually this was on the low end of the scale - because we have a sliding scale based on parish size.) I know those have gone up. And I know the compensation for Clergy was higher.
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17 May 02 - 12:59 PM (#712398) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: hesperis *Hug* Don't forget to have fun. |
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18 May 02 - 01:37 AM (#712737) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: GUEST,.gargoyle
A cup of coffee or a donut............ ...................................... (if you pay for one and they offer the other) are all that should be expected for passing on the tradition.
Sincerely, |
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20 May 02 - 07:19 PM (#714185) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: wysiwyg Well, yeah, there is that whenchy aspect of it, but then I ALSO want to be paid for all the prep time to teach, for the money I've invested in equipment, for the driving to get there, for the coordination time in advance to set it all up, for helping peiople see how to use what I know in their own setting, and so forth, because it's not just the tradition I would pass on in my workshops... I have been thinking about it this way-- how much would I expect to pay, to attend a workshop like I envision? And then how many people would be the right size crowd to do it for? And then how much of that should the church pay, and how much should they pass alog to the participants? Cuz they could ask the participants to help defray the cost. Hardi explained it to me like this-- the money might not be in the budget already, but every rector knows which parishioners can be asked to support new things that become possible, and if four people each kick in a twenty, and the church does too, well there's the hundred. I guess if I want more, or travel & other expenses, they could have to add participant fees to it. In fact if they use what I do, in order to do outreach serving the community, then they may actually make money for the church AND pay me. AZt the Folk College I recently attended (see thread), we briefly covered the basics of the all the business aspects of folk music gigging. The point that emerged was one I already knew from other marketing successes I have engineered in other fields-- it all comes down to seeing the product from the eye of the recipient, and marketing to that. I just had not seen all the possibilities until I made myself think about it, and heard how it has worked for other. I still want to know what kind of rates some of you are getting for working with schools. What kind of money do they put into their grant proposals? ~Susan |
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20 May 02 - 07:22 PM (#714188) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: wysiwyg Well, yeah, there is that whenchy aspect of it, but then I ALSO want to be paid for all the prep time to teach, for the money I've invested in equipment, for the driving to get there, for the coordination time in advance to set it all up, for helping peiople see how to use what I know in their own setting, and so forth, because it's not just the tradition I would pass on in my workshops... I have been thinking about it this way-- how much would I expect to pay, to attend a workshop like I envision? And then how many people would be the right size crowd to do it for? And then how much of that should the church pay, and how much should they pass along to the participants? Cuz they could ask the participants to help defray the cost. Hardi explained it to me like this-- the money might not be in the budget already, but every rector knows which parishioners can be asked to support new things that become possible, and if four people each kick in a twenty, and the church does too, well there's the hundred. I guess if I want more, or travel & other expenses, they could have to add participant fees to it. In fact if they use what I do, in order to do outreach serving the community, then they may actually make money for the church AND pay me. AZt the Folk College I recently attended (see thread), we briefly covered the basics of the all the business aspects of folk music gigging. The point that emerged was one I already knew from other marketing successes I have engineered in other fields-- it all comes down to seeing the product from the eye of the recipient, and marketing to that. I just had not seen all the possibilities until I made myself think about it, and heard how it has worked for other. I still want to know what kind of rates some of you are getting for working with schools. What kind of money do they put into their grant proposals? ~Susan |
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20 May 02 - 08:42 PM (#714246) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca Susan. We had offered and in most cases it was accepted, $100.00 for a one hour workshop. In Some cases, a lower fee was negotiated, but a mileage fee was paid. |
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20 May 02 - 08:46 PM (#714249) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: harpmaker Well hi Whizy, long time no speak, hope you are well. We recently did a school for handycapped kids. They said we where very cheap @50 GBP for the hour. John. (We realy enjoyed it too!) |
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20 May 02 - 10:33 PM (#714293) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: wysiwyg George, that much for an HOUR??? I was thinking of an evening-long or half a Saturday.... and besides, I can see that YOU are worth it, but I dunno if I am yet... some of that is feelings but some of it is a fair assessment of what I can do right now. Hm. And hi harpmaker John! What's GBP? Thanks for the info-- keep 'em coming folks... ~Susan
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20 May 02 - 10:44 PM (#714297) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull GBP=Great Britain Pounds (proper money!) |
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20 May 02 - 11:11 PM (#714304) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: Phil Cooper Susan, When I figure fees I do what you seem to be already doing. Assess likely size, reasonable fee per person, etc. It's a good idea to set a fee that would guarantee that you do allright for your time, but where the place holding the workshop doesn't lose it's shirt if attendance is not what was expected. Also, a factor to consider, how much value are they placing on you coming? If they aren't willing to cough up at least $100.00, they probably aren't going to value what you do (not always true, but this society measures a lot of things by money and not other considerations). Psychologically speaking, if you aren't willing to think your work is of value, why should they? |
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20 May 02 - 11:22 PM (#714309) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: Kaleea Depends on many factors. Are you asking for the fee which an organization will give you, or for the fee the persons attending the workshop will give? In many situations, if I know the minister (or another member of the church) well, I ask what their budget might allow, keeping in mind my travel & lodging expenses, etc. If I am missing what I would normally be earning to be there, then that should be a part of it. If you are asking an atendee to pay, then you need to consider aproximately how many persons might be attending. $100 plus expenses is often a standard amount given to the workshop leader for a workshop at a medium sized church. At a large church which can well afford to pay for services rendered, then think upwards toward $250 or more, depending upon the preparation time, and the material handed out. Be sure that your handouts are copyrighted by you, or that you have permission to use them. If it is your own material, you can bet that someone is most likely going to plagerize it--especially music! |
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21 May 02 - 12:17 AM (#714324) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: GUEST,.gargoyle What have YOU been paid for a similar workshop "taught" by an amatuer?
Let THAT be your guide.
Somehow, I believe the real gist of this thread is....WYSIWYG has a GIG in which case....congrats!
Sincerely, |
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21 May 02 - 10:27 AM (#714583) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: wysiwyg The question about gigs, and the implied need to define how "amateur" I am, is fair. I will address that, because not only do I hope it will help focus people's responses here, but because someone will look up this thread someday and I think it would be nice for them to see it all laid out too. I have a weekly gig for which I receive whatever music I need (print or recorded) to learn new material, strings and help with major repairs of equipment, sometimes help with workshop fees if I attend something, and a nice dinner afterwards. I have a couple of people who play with me for this when they can, for the experience and for the love of music, and who are quite comfortable leaving the work and leadership (and "compensation") to me. I use my own sound system there, and leave it there along with most of my "stuff." I have two other gigs twice a month each, which I do for free because they are my laboratory for working with people in a different way. I usually do these by myself, because part of what I do there is practice working alone. I bring a small PA to the larger one and do the other entirely acoustic, so I get to practice these approaches. I could have another weekly gig, but it's on the same day of the week as these twice-monthly ones are. This one would pay a slight amount for three or four songs. But the people are less honest about their feedback-- it's a nursing hoime, and I do those often for free with my husband, but the people there want music so badly they appreciate ANYthing, and more than the bucks, I need feedback at this point. I could have as many gigs (with our little band, with just mny husband, or alone) as I wanted, if I wanted to play in nursing homes and childcare centers for free. We do play about a half dozen of those a year. I would play more of them if I had a big enough voice to do them without a PA, because for me the toting of equipment is a strain on my recovering health. An issue for me that flows out of that is that here is physical recovery time for me after each gig. How much down time is required seems dependent usually on how much help I have had toting, setting up, and breaking down equipment and materials. This means that if I do much of this kind of thing, I can't expect to also hold down a solid day job. So I need to choose, and if I choose music, I need for it to pay at least a little. I do have a new one-time gig which was offered to me when I did a short presentation for free at a workshop I was attending. It's exactly the sort of thing I had been envisioning when I embarked on learning some of what I have been learning in the last year, and I happily agreed to do it as an experiment to see what it will be like doing that sort of thing. They offered to pick up expenses-- travel, meals, & overnight. I am not at all concerned about not getting "paid" because I have volunteered my way "up the food chain" in every career I have had, and I always do extremely well starting that way. But the reaction these people had was so positive and FAST, I know I can be doing LOTS more of it. At the session at Folk College where we talked about all this, what I realized is that I have to write up the workshop descriptions, now that I know my likely markets, and check around to see what that market will bear for that product. Before I can hope that people will know how much to offer me, I have to be clear what I am offering them, and I have to make a range of products of various sizes and sorts so that they can find what they want and can afford. If I do that, I expect to be pretty busy by the time Black History month rolls around and if I can solve the how-far-to-travel issue, for the time of year that happens, I should have a full month "touring" from workshop to workshop. I anticipate a "shakedown cruise" year, and then I think I will have a better idea how much I can do and how much it can net our family income. ~Susan |
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21 May 02 - 04:10 PM (#714844) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: Phil Cooper Susan, I've been told to be wary of posting your rates on description sheets you send out (I think this is on the theory that if someone hangs on to one for five years, it will prevent them from getting upset if you've raised the rates). We have on our website a statement that "fees vary depending on time, distance, and other factors." We've gotten a couple thousand dollars for spending a week at a camp/festival teaching and performing, we've played for the hat at a house concert and had a 50 pound sack of potatoes thrown in. I remember hearing that Fairport Convention did a show for a washing machine once. A description sheet is a great idea. |
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21 May 02 - 04:50 PM (#714874) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: wysiwyg Oh yeah, just the workshops, not the rates. Definitely. ~S~
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21 May 02 - 05:02 PM (#714882) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: GUEST,wilco 48 I'm in several music clubs in Tennessee, and here are are criteria: The primary consideration is if the instructor is coming a long way, and if it involves overnight stays. We try to get a $150.00 to $300.00 net to the instructor, which is usually about a four hour workshop. We try to get someone to let the instructor or performer stay at their home to reduce expenses. Sometimes, if we don't have enough members who want a particular person, several of us will chip-in to cover the fee. In other words, if you only have fifteen people who want a workshop, we will all pay $15.00. If we have thirty people, the club would just pay the $30.00. Sometimes, you can charge admission to a concert by the performer, either on the night before or the afternoon after the workshop. If you do it the night before, you can "whet the audiences' appetite" with what they will learn at the workshop. You can also have a performance of the materials learned in the workshop, in the evening after the workshop, that can require admission fees. |
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21 May 02 - 07:23 PM (#714960) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: wysiwyg VERY HELPFUL! ~s~ |
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22 May 02 - 02:07 AM (#715095) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: Genie Yeah, Gargoyle (who doth call his sister a greedy capitalist whench), d'ya think people's time ain't worth nuthin'? (As Kaleea astutely observed, they may even be losing income by takin' time off fromt their regular work.) Susan, you've done a good job of expounding (for those who need it) on why musicians shouldn't be expected to play "just for the love of it," even if they are playing for schools, churches, or other non-profits. I can't give you direct advice on how much to charge for a workshop, but as some others have said, consider these factors: • how much will your overhead costs be? • how much time will you devote to the project? • what would you pay to attend such a workshop (on a topic you're interested in)? • how many people are likely to attend? • will you gain intangibles (e.g., publicity) from doing the workshop? • what does your potential client generally pay other professionals (e.g., educators, speakers, visiting clergy) for a comparable time segment? Don't underestimate the worth of your program just because you're an "amateur." Some of the best musicians I know don't make their living that way. The same goes for other artistic and intellectual pursuits. And many avid hobbyists have turned the hobby into a profession because they were very good at it. Go for it! Genie
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22 May 02 - 11:10 AM (#715355) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: Willie-O Susan, you may privately consider yourself a student, but you SHOULDN'T be presenting yourself as one. You have your own sound equipment, apparently some well-developed programmes, and tons of experience. You are the Artist. I live in a rural area not unlike your own (national differences aside), and our little podunk community arts centre pays the standard Ontario Arts Council per diem for visiting artists to put on a workshop. Actually the per diem by the book is $250 Cdn/day plus travel expenses. We budget that when applying for a grant to do something or other, for non-grant-funded workshops which are paid for by the participants, we usually pay $200 + travel. (Attendees usually pay $20-30 plus materials costs if any, for a 4-6 hour workshop). These might be musical or any other type of artists, what they have in common is that they bring both their talent and equipment and share it with others in a hands-on educational/participatory fashion. Your mileage may vary... Willie-O
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22 May 02 - 04:50 PM (#715603) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: hesperis Sometimes students make the best teachers, because students know that they don't know everything, and they are willing to learn from THEIR students. Now, aside from that, if you are in the role of the teacher, then you have the authority of that role, so play it. Don't compare your knowledge to the people who are doing this job "professionally" and who know much better than you about anything you want to teach. You'll just feel small and insignificant that way, and you'll sell yourself short, and your students won't get the best experience of YOU. You will pick it up as you go along, so don't worry about it at all. Focus on what you can bring to the table as compared to the students. They're who you're there for. |
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22 May 02 - 05:14 PM (#715625) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: wysiwyg On top of all the specific information this thread has attracted, which is OUTSTANDING-- W-O, Hess, you guys are really getting to me. I will have to work on that aspect of it a bit. Thank you for hearing that I needed to. I've been told I never seem to listen to people. Well I do; I just don't usually let anybody catch me admitting it. *G* ~S~ |
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22 May 02 - 07:08 PM (#715751) Subject: RE: Fair Rates for Doing Workshops? From: harpmaker Have faith in yourself, you got this far. So you must be OK, at least. From now on, you will get realy good at what you do. John. |