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04 May 98 - 06:57 AM (#27198) Subject: Shortest definition of folk From: steve t I heard this one on CBC radio: Folk is music that does not rely entirely on commercial media for its distribution.
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04 May 98 - 08:00 AM (#27203) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Helen Hi Steve Nice definition, but a (mischievous) question: what was the definition of folk music before commercial media was invented?? :-) Helen |
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04 May 98 - 09:20 AM (#27206) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Ted from Australia Helen , Before commercial media was invented (and this includes TV, radio, records, CDs and printed or hand copied words and/or music)all music was folk.(or just music,no lables, they hadn't been invented either).;-) Steve T, I LIKE it Regards Ted |
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04 May 98 - 09:29 AM (#27208) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Ted from Australia Helen , Before commercial media was invented (and this includes TV, radio, records, CDs and printed or hand copied words and/or music)all music was folk.(or just music,no lables, they hadn't been invented either).;-) Steve T, I LIKE it Regards Ted |
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04 May 98 - 10:46 AM (#27214) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Sheye A profound quote from Canada... and I lived to see the day. (Tongue in cheek) Now if we could only convince the powers that be to let us have a decent anthem. Canada's motto: We have the only anthem that is completely politically correct. We keep repeating the same six words, but they are none the less, politically correct. Seriously, keeping in line with Canada's citizen policy, I will go on record stating that I LOVE the CBC. |
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04 May 98 - 11:05 AM (#27219) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: McGrath How about this from the Irish Language. Caint, Ceol agus Caric - Translates to: Talk, song and fun. I love CBC too! Great and varied educational programmes down through the years. Us Paddies have a great afinity to Canada and at least some of us remember Grosse Île. Best Regards |
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04 May 98 - 11:08 AM (#27220) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: McGrath Sorry! That should read; Caint, Ceol agus Craic Frank McGrath.....again! |
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04 May 98 - 11:12 AM (#27221) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: McGrath Sorry! That should read; Caint, Ceol agus Craic Frank McGrath.....again! |
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04 May 98 - 01:41 PM (#27241) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Art Thieme Piccasso said, "...all art is a lie that lets us see the truth" |
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04 May 98 - 03:46 PM (#27246) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: steve t Folk music away back when? Hmmm. I'd guess that even before money was invented, there were professional and semi-professional musicians, and that much music relied very heavily on religious and/or political subsidies for its distribution and continuance. Furthur, I'm surprised to conclude that wandering minstrels were professionals and therefore much of their music would not, at the time they were singing it, fit this definition of folk. |
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04 May 98 - 05:11 PM (#27259) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Geoff (In England) After almost 40 years of involvment in "Folk Music" as both performer and journalist I have not heard or even devised a short definition of the subject. Is it either possible or necessary ? Was it Louis or was it Huddie who mentioned non singing horses ? I guess that says it all. |
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04 May 98 - 05:58 PM (#27267) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: steve t Uhhhhh... non singing horses? Gosh, Batman, I'm confounded again. |
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04 May 98 - 06:19 PM (#27271) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Roger Himler To Steve T. I think it was Big Bill Broonzy who said (and I paraphrase it here) "It's folk music, it's not horses singing it." This is the elusive reference that has confused you. Roger in Baltimore |
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04 May 98 - 07:22 PM (#27285) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Bill D the 'non-singing horses' line is cute, pithy and totally useless! Uses the fallacy of 'equivocation'...different meanings of the word 'folk'...but everyone seems to have heard it, so it pops up almost every time the subject is mentioned. |
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05 May 98 - 03:45 PM (#27368) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Jon W. Music from a non-famous source that has passed the test of time. |
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05 May 98 - 03:57 PM (#27372) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Harald Jon, the second part of your definition: That´s it ! But I don´t agree with the first part. There are so many really great song-writers (famous ?!) who write songs, you could swear they only can be "time-proof" traditionals. That was what I first thought of songs I later knew as written by Eric Bogle and also Christy Moore, just to name a few. |
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05 May 98 - 04:04 PM (#27373) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Jon W. Well, by "non-famous" I was just trying to eliminate the classical composers, whose music has also passed the test of time. But I consider folk and classic to be closer than some might: composers from Beethoven to Copland have incorporated folk melodies in their music. (Besides, Eric Bogle and Christy Moore aren't all THAT famous.) |
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05 May 98 - 04:38 PM (#27376) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Harald OK, Jon, I see your point. But can you compare that ? Classical componists write music for a full orchestra, while folk is for a few instruments, or even a singing voice only. Folk is some kind of the people´s singing voice. What I try to say: Folk deals with the people´s problems or at least things that are important to them. That´s the root for folk lyrics to grow, even for choice of instruments - remember lilting in Irish musical history. On the other hand orchestral music from the classic period was to satisfy aristocrats. So, in my opinion, one should rather compare folk and pop to draw the line that limits the boundary of folk music. The reason is, because also pop has it´s roots in all the stuff that people are engaged with (additionally the focus point of making money...) so the roots (the source for lyrics and the tune itself) of pop and folk are the same. Just the intentions and the realisations are different. |
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05 May 98 - 05:49 PM (#27388) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Jon W. And besides, I forgot my own cardinal rule on defining anything (not just music) as "folk"--There has to be an identifiable population with which to associate the item. Therefore: Folk music is music which has passed beyond the creative intent of the original author, and which is considered by a particular folk population to be their own, and which has usually passed the test of time. |
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05 May 98 - 07:16 PM (#27396) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Bill D hmmm..Jon...that is the closest I have ever seen to a 'short' definition that I could tolerate!! By BEING short, it leaves some questions, but I kinda like it... |
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05 May 98 - 11:54 PM (#27430) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: dulcimer So when were the first tunes written down or the first lyrics that were clearly identified as a song written down? |
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06 May 98 - 04:41 AM (#27439) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: steve t Written down? I feel that's a prime characteristic of folk -- that it CAN be passed on without being written down. I do get the feeling that most of the really early songs we know of, like By the Waters of Babylon, were ceremonial, and I don't think ceremonial music can be folk music. But maybe if I start a new thread, someone can answer... |
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06 May 98 - 10:33 AM (#27465) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Jon W. One of the meanings of my statement "passed beyond the creative intent of the original author" is that the music and/or lyrics have been changed in the (usually oral) transmission. Once it is written down changes are less likely to take place. |
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06 May 98 - 10:56 AM (#27469) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Bert Folk is "What we sing" |
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06 May 98 - 11:03 AM (#27473) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Bill in Alabama I like your thinking, Bert. |
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06 May 98 - 04:13 PM (#27501) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Harald Hm, under the shower I like to sing horrible 50th songs, Alice and Erica recently confessed the liking of singing operas, my neighbour produces the whole Stones-repertoire nearly every night - hey Bert, that´s all true folk ??? |
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06 May 98 - 05:13 PM (#27510) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: L Baker Folk music is the music that people who profess to like folk music listen to. |
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06 May 98 - 05:37 PM (#27512) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Bill D tsk...circular and empty definitions...if 'folk' is 'what we sing', then why call it folk? Just call it 'songs'!If a definition is to mean anything, whether it is agreed with or not, it must differentiate. "A rose is a rose is a rose" does nothing for those who have never seen a rose. The fact is, we DO mean something by 'folk' as opposed to 'Bluegrass' or 'pop' or 'rock' or 'Gregorian chant' ...we may not agree on the details, but a definition has gotta have some content....mine is up to several pages of characteristics and disclaimers now...(and I still like the direction of Jon's...I just want to define how records should be sorted in the music store...or categories in a database....obsessed masochist?? naaahhhh....) |
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06 May 98 - 06:23 PM (#27518) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Joe Offer Well, this thread is certainly not going to be the "shortest definition of folk"! We certainly are a wordy lot, aren't we? I saw this thread pop up a couple of days ago, and I knew it was going to be a long one. I think that, at least in this forum, "short definition of folk" is an oxymoron. -Joe Offer- |
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06 May 98 - 10:02 PM (#27555) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Will Found a nice definition in Chambers Dictionary, my favourite source of elegent etymology. Folksong: A song originating among the people and traditionally handed down by them. Not that the definition clears up the discussion much, or at all, 'cause "originating among the people" is open to many interpretations and "handed down" to even more.
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07 May 98 - 10:16 AM (#27596) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Frank McGrath I am constantly being told to "Folk Off". What does this mean?? Is it good?? Frank McGrath |
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07 May 98 - 10:19 AM (#27597) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Frank McGrath Me Da and Ma. = Definition for my Folk(s). |
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07 May 98 - 11:06 AM (#27608) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Bert Harald, Yup, sure is. Bill D.,If you wish to be pedantic about it perhaps I should have said... "The stuff in DT & Mudcat" which would also make it the longest definition. :-) |
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07 May 98 - 12:52 PM (#27617) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: steve t Or how about, "Everything that ought to be in the DT." ;-) |
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07 May 98 - 01:26 PM (#27620) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Bert Steve t., Yes, that's better. |
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07 May 98 - 01:41 PM (#27622) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Allan C. Seems to me to be a whole lot about nothing. On the assumption that you were refering to folkmusic rather than defining folk, which Frank did most succinctly, I would have to say that the words both separately and (especially) together are self defining. I submit that it is virtually axiomatic that neither would last very long without the other. |
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07 May 98 - 02:33 PM (#27628) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: dick greenhaus I thought I could resist getting into this, but old habits are strong... The meaning of the word "Folk" depends upon what you're looking for. Folk music to a musicologist is something entirely different than Folk to a cultural Anthropologist. It's like arguing about whether a cow is a mammal, or a vertebrate or a device for converting grass to milk. Incidentally, "Folk", to the Digital Tradition, is anything someone likes enough to bother copying down. |
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07 May 98 - 03:27 PM (#27630) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Bill D funny, isn't it, I like Steve's line about 'everything that ought to be in the DT', so Bert and I are in agreement(insert one of those winky emoticons here...is there one that indicates tongue stuck firmly in cheek?)....I also doubt, Dick, that you mean what you said literally....there are whole realms of 'music' that people like that are NOT represented in the DT...even you have your limits! I guess that may be the real question...what to leave out! There are things already in there that I personally like and sing, but disagree about this being the place for them, but I am not doing the choosing. As I have said, I would LOVE to see sister sites..or even different threads/databases in one site...for country music, bluegrass, singer-songwriter,etc. Even blues, a major focus of the Mudcat, is not too well represented in the database. In the cyber environment, moving to a different page, thread, or even a different site, is only a couple of clicks and a few seconds of time. I know that some of us now frequent sites and songlists that are especially for Celtic music, though much of Celtic music has more claim to 'folk' status than some of the stuff that appears here....it is just too large a category (like bluegrass) to do justice to here, though there are those among us who could certainly explain at length how they are related and share certain roots. Still, I realize that until someone does create specialized on-line sites (WITH question & answer forums!)for the music with narrower focus, Mudcat will continue to be the venue of choice when looking for lyrics or help on anything even vaguely related to folk music. |
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08 May 98 - 04:53 AM (#27714) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Frank in the swamps How many times must some folks sing a song, before it's a folk song they sang? Groooaan. Frank i.t.s. |
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08 May 98 - 01:10 PM (#27754) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Bill D Frank....umpty-leventeen, but you gotta hold your mouth right and look off in the corner of the room and think pure, folky thoughts--or it doesn't count and you gotta start over ;-) |
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08 May 98 - 04:12 PM (#27780) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: steve t Frank i.t.s, simply put: brilliant. |
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08 May 98 - 05:32 PM (#27786) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Joe Offer But if it's a real folk song, Bill, ya gotta sing with your finger in your ear. -Joe Offer, who doesn't- |
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09 May 98 - 01:28 PM (#27841) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Bill D *sigh*, Joe, Im afraid I DO...well, with hand cupped there anyway...hearing is not what it once was, and there are times in chorus songs when I simply can't tell whether I'm on key without that help..(it's nice to play the Autoharp, 'cause I can simply lean my left ear against it and hear the vibrations...) |
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11 May 98 - 09:32 AM (#27957) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Bert I'm told that the Muezzin cup a hand behind the ear when they are calling the faithful to prayer. What wonderful singers those guys are. It's very moving to hear people putting so much passion into their singing. I heard one on television the other day in a program about Alexander The Great. It brought back happy memories of the time I spent in Bahrain. Bert. |
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12 May 98 - 11:17 AM (#28067) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Nora Isn't there a bit on a Rosalie Sorrels record called 'Aunt Molly Jackson Defines Folk Music Once and For All?' I may be misremembering it, but I think the idea is folk music = real people singing about their real lives. Of course that lets in a lot of stuff we might not like. I think sometimes we spend to much time trying to narrow the definition to exclude everything we don't like: add electric guitars, or drums, or god help us the performer actually makes a living performing and it can't be folk music. I do think there is something about once a song gets loose in the world it becomes part of folk music. I heard a story once that Leonard Cohen was traveling in eastern europe and heard some people singing 'Suzanne' in whatever language they were using. It seems like the point of the story was that the singers had no idea that he was the tune's composer. As I said in another thread: Folk music wants to be free. Nora |
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12 May 98 - 12:25 PM (#28071) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Jon W. Which brings up the question of how to get a folk musician off your front porch. (Pay him for the pizza.) |
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12 May 98 - 02:01 PM (#28080) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Allan C. Yes, Jon. But why would you want to? What a time we would have if a bunch of us could gather on a front porch (or back even) as the shadows start to fall and perhaps do as much music making as we do talking here. Nora, I felt a twinge of pain when you spoke of making a living from performing folk music. I suppose it can be done. I have heard about it. Mostly rumors, I guess. But getting back to the subject, I think there will always be those who will constantly search for "the real thing" and those who will choose to tailor their music to suit their purpose and their personal sentiments. I don't mind a bit being listening to either. They are all welcome on my porch anytime. |
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11 Oct 00 - 03:34 PM (#316449) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: GUEST,samhall@madasafish.com FOlk Music is "what you can sing in the bath" You know the words, the tunes memorable and has therefore entered the oral tradition. It's accoustic and doesn't need any fancy equipment to perform |
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11 Oct 00 - 03:59 PM (#316470) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Art Thieme Trad. |
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11 Oct 00 - 04:22 PM (#316489) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: GUEST,Les B. Seen on a poster somewhere in the past 35 years: "Folk - Timeless tunes for tuneless times !" |
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11 Oct 00 - 04:33 PM (#316499) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Bert That's gotta be the shortest Art, and dammit it's true. Another definition could be "Anything that we can slip past the Harry Fox Agency" |
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11 Oct 00 - 05:31 PM (#316558) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: GUEST,John Leeder A couple of tongue-in-cheek definitions (with a kernel of truth): -A folk song is any song whose lyrics you can hear. -Folk music is any music you can't make a living playing. Some years ago, the Canadian Folk Music Society tried to come up with a definition of "folk music". We ended up changing the name of the society to get rid of the f-word. |
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11 Oct 00 - 05:45 PM (#316568) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Allan C. I have to tell you that I'm getting a kick out of seeing this thread surface again. It contains my very first posting to the Mudcat! *Sigh* |
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11 Oct 00 - 06:13 PM (#316588) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Naemanson At the risk of steering this thread on to dangerous ground, i.e., a serious beating of that old dead horse, this thread began with "Folk is music that does not rely entirely on commercial media for its distribution" When it was new folk music WAS the commercial media! Consider that people like O'Carolan and his ilk wandered the countryside carrying the local news (gossip and actual news) as part of their stock in trade. Consider how many old street calls have come down through the ages as folk music. Consider how many are stories, embellished to entertain. I apologise if I am repeating what someone wrote earlier in this thread. I considered reading the whole thread but I have to fight with my daughter for computer access and can't read everything I'd like too. For those following the "Milestones" thread, this is the part of parenting where you look forward to the imminent departure of the kid. But not very much! |
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11 Oct 00 - 06:20 PM (#316593) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Frankham steve1, The CBC definition means that the Folk Music Revival is not folk music. The Revival in the States depended chiefly on the sale of recordings. If recordings are not media, then this definition might work. Except that the Kingston Trio would not be folk music because they relied heavilly on media for the sale of their recordings as did the Weavers. The Kingston Trio and the Weavers therefore do not do folk music. (Whew!) Geoff, it was Big Bill Broonzy. Roger, The quote is when Bill was asked if the music he did was folk music, he said, "I ain't never heard no horses sing it." JonW, The definition is thorny because Mozart wrote the tune for Twinkle Twinkle Little Star (considered durable and a folk song.) Schubert Leider has gone into aural transmission in Germany as well and is considered folk music. I think the most important ingredient is this. It is subject to change and variations over a period of time by many people. A shorter definition: a folk song is a variant of an original source that persists. Frank |
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11 Oct 00 - 06:22 PM (#316596) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Carlin Folk song....any song that you can sit down at a campfire and play a recognizable version of on your guitar (or fiddle, or mandolin, or fill in the instrument of your choice) and at least one other person will know the words... |
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11 Oct 00 - 06:43 PM (#316614) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Little Hawk Actually, it was originally called FOLC Music... "For Ordinary Low Commoners" (the Margaret Thatcher definition...) :-) I'd say seriously, however, that folk music in a general sense is music that is created without a specific commercial objective in mind, but rather simply for its own sake. As such it is generally ignored by the mainstream commercial media, except in the case of artists who are so remarkable that they attain broad public notice DESPITE the fact that they play folk music. Folk music can be in almost any recognizable style, from trad to country to classical to new age to ethnic to celtic to aboriginal to whatever you please. And it can be about any subject whatsoever. It usually includes lyrics, but not always. The lyrics are usually a bit more important to the song than in many other styles of music. Folk audiences tend to listen a bit more closely to the lyrics, hopefully.... It is written and sung for its own sake, because people like it for its own sake.
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11 Oct 00 - 06:45 PM (#316615) Subject: RE: Shortest definition of folk From: Rich(bodhránai gan ciall) ASCAP-proof music! Rich |