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06 Jul 02 - 02:33 AM (#743250) Subject: Put up your dukes From: musicmick In several song lyrics, I have encountered the phrase, "Put up your dukes." In one recitation I read that someone, "Duked it out". If, as I suspect, "dukes" means fists and, if "duking it out" means to strike with one's fists, where did that expression come from? I thought it might be a tribute to the Marquis of Queensbury, who stole credit for codifying the rules of prize fighting but is a Marquis a Duke? (Perhaps, a Marquis is to a Duke as a raven is to a writing desk.) It would be poetic if the phrase was a reference to John Wayne, that two fisted reactionary whose nickname was Duke. But I'm pretty sure that the term predates Stagecoach by a lot. Dies anyone have any ideas or is this to be one of those unsolved mysteries that keep popping up on A&E? |
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06 Jul 02 - 02:43 AM (#743251) Subject: RE: Put up your dukes From: Pene Azul As found on Take Our Word For It, Issue 93: Fork also figures in one of the few examples of rhyming slang in American English. The expression put up your dukes means "put up your fists [and fight]". The meaning is doubly hidden. The full expression was put up your Duke of Yorks and Duke of York meant "fork" Fork was slang for "hand". |
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06 Jul 02 - 05:55 AM (#743273) Subject: RE: Put up your dukes From: Bob Bolton G'day Pene Azul, I would like to see the provenance and dating on this. It may well be rhyming slang ... the Oxford only finds the word "duke" for hand or fist in 1879 ... and that is about the time that rhyming slang came into London vogue. We have the odd reference in the English Music Hall/pay song Botany Bay: "... all you young dookies an' duchesses ..." apparently meaning pickpockets (male and female) as "they gained their living by their hands". If this was a Londond expression, it must have been newly minted at the time Mayhew used the song in his play "Little Jack Shepherd" ... c. 1880. The expression is not contained in the 1811 Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue, a useful guide (for me) to the slang and argot of immigrants and convicts from the main source from which Australia's intake came, at that time. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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06 Jul 02 - 06:51 AM (#743280) Subject: RE: Put up your dukes From: McGrath of Harlow "dookies an' duchesses" - I'd have thought that might be word play on "ducking and diving", which is what you need to do in that kind of business.
I'm pretty sure there are references to rhyming slang a good bit earlier than 1880, in Mayhew |
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06 Jul 02 - 12:20 PM (#743340) Subject: RE: Put up your dukes From: mack/misophist Lancelot Hogben wrote a series of books, in the 60's I think, in which he said that dukes comes from the Romany "dukker, dukkerje" for hand, palmistry (My Romany is probably incorrect, but that's close). Our word "pal" is said to come from the Romany "chal" for cousin. Hogben may be a funny name, but his Oxford bona fides were quite impressive, as were the books. |
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06 Jul 02 - 12:25 PM (#743341) Subject: RE: Put up your dukes From: Gary T Hmmm. When studying Latin, I was told that it came from the Latin verb ducere, "to lead." The rationale was that in a fight, one's fists are the leading part of the body presented to the opponent. But my dictionary agrees with what Pene posted. |
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06 Jul 02 - 01:52 PM (#743378) Subject: RE: Put up your dukes From: GUEST,.gargoyle Random House Historical Dictionary of American Slang Voume I (A-G) The Only Historical Dictionary of Slang, Spanning Three Hundred Years of Slang Use in America J.E. Lighter, Editor 1994, p. 672
duke n. a. A hand or (usu. pl.) fist…. 1859 Matsel Vocab. 28:Dukes. The hand. [Pugilists' slang] Dukes The hands. ca 1859 Chamberlain My Confession 8: I… landed a stinger on his "potatoe trap" with my left "duke" drawing the "Claret" and "sending him to grass."
The usage in regard to fists continues for 24 more references.
Well done Misophist.. the first reference made in the above Matselreferenc is indeed to fortune-telling/palm-reading. The glossary of Brandon Poverty 1839 notes Dookin fortune-telling The Oxford English Dictionary II 21: 1865 To shake hands with in welcome or congratulation. The foremost to "duke" me upon entering was Squib Dixon.
Other usages include: hand-of-cards, method of swindling, a fight decision, to bungle or botch something completely, to hand something over, dressed up, and introduction, deal in, brawl,
Your Humble Servant, |
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06 Jul 02 - 05:18 PM (#743447) Subject: RE: Put up your dukes From: Giac Hmmmm. This must also explain the expression: Fork it over -- as in "Fork over da loot." Always wondered about that. Thanks. Mary |
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06 Jul 02 - 06:31 PM (#743475) Subject: RE: Put up your dukes From: GUEST,.gargoyle Dear Pene Azul, There is not much in the way of scholarship or reference at Take Our Word when consulting the "York" reference to Fork….it is dubious at best….but you can "take their word" if you want.
A New Dictionary of the Terms Ancient and Modern of the Canting Crew, in its Several Tribes of Gypsies, Beggars, Thieves, Cheats, etc, with the Addition of some Proverbs, Phrases, Figurative Speeches, etc." B.E., Gent, London: Printed for W. Hawes at the Rose in Ludgate Street n.d. [1698-99]
fork v. 1.a. Und. to pick the pocket (of); (specif.) to do so using only two fingers. Cf. FORKS. Let's fork him, let us Pick that Man's Pocket. s.v. meggs:We fork'd the rum Cull's Meggs to the tune of Fourty… We Pickt the Gentleman's Pocket of full Fourty Guineas.
Sincerely,
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07 Jul 02 - 03:38 AM (#743680) Subject: RE: Put up your dukes From: Hrothgar The book, of course, was ready to hand.... :-) |
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07 Jul 02 - 09:00 AM (#743752) Subject: RE: Put up your dukes From: Bob Bolton G'day McGrath, Without digging through Mayhew for examples, what impressed me, when I read the books many years back, was how different his record of the Cockney slang of 1850-60 was to what we hear nowadays. The two points that struck me were the absence of rhyming slang and the prevalance of back-spelt slang. Since then I have heard that back-talk is still common ... in their financial dealings, in markets and such - and the rhyming slang is more for show - or 'sport'. Regards, Bob Bolton |
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07 Jul 02 - 09:56 AM (#743772) Subject: RE: Put up your dukes From: McGrath of Harlow Backslang is more cmmon than people realise - for example "cool it" is probably from the backslang for "look". With both backslang and rhyming slang, the expressions often pass into the language so we often use them without having any idea that they fall into one of these categories. |
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08 Jul 02 - 07:23 AM (#744293) Subject: RE: Put up your dukes From: Deckman |
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08 Jul 02 - 10:00 PM (#744784) Subject: RE: Put up your dukes From: kendall I was born 100 years too late, that colorful language that Gargoyl quoted is so much nicer than what we use. |
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09 Jul 02 - 05:38 AM (#744974) Subject: RE: Put up your dukes From: rich-joy My dad always called left-handed people "Molly Dukes / Dookas" (???) - so where does that come from - is it related??? Cheers! R-J |
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09 Jul 02 - 05:42 AM (#744979) Subject: RE: Put up your dukes From: Steve Parkes Gargoyle, did that dictionary really use the Dan Quayle speeling of "potatoe", or was it just a typo? Don't disillusion me! Steve |
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09 Jul 02 - 06:13 AM (#744989) Subject: RE: Put up your dukes From: GUEST,.gargoyle It is NOT a typo, it is reproduced as printed. Language and music (and spelling) are part of the "oral tradition" and subject to change.
Sincerely, |
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09 Jul 02 - 08:53 AM (#745045) Subject: RE: Put up your dukes From: GUEST,Bill Kennedy don't know if this info is anywhere above because I got tired of reading, but the cockney rhyming slang proceeds this way one's (left and right) hands were called your 'knife & fork' this became your 'Duke of York' which was shortened to 'Dukes' as in 'put up your dukes' |
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09 Jul 02 - 09:51 AM (#745077) Subject: RE: Put up your dukes From: Steve Parkes Thanks G. That's interesting; I wonder what other "non-standard" (for want of a better expression) speelings it contains? I suppose a picky person might claim that spelling isn't part of an oral tradition, but I'm not picky! "Duchess" (as in "My Dear Old Du(t)ch"), apart from being a term of endearment in its own right, was RS: Duchess of Fife = wife. The D of F was well-known for something in the latter part of the 19th century, but I forget what, exactly. Steve |
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09 Jul 02 - 11:50 AM (#745140) Subject: RE: Put up your dukes From: GUEST,.gargoyle The spelling is from 1859 -
The rhyming and backward language sound interesting. Are there any references for more information on the subject?
Sincerely, |
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10 Jul 02 - 05:30 AM (#745647) Subject: RE: Put up your dukes From: Nigel Parsons Steve, spelling might not now be part of the Aural tradition, but the passing on of language was, prior to mass education. Hence the first dictionaries in England(Johnson) and America (Webster) differ in that the English continued the use of many French and Latin spellings, whilst the Americans went for something more obvious. Nigel |
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18 Jul 02 - 05:52 AM (#750245) Subject: RE: Put up your dukes From: rich-joy Just found a website to do with left-handedness and terms used to describe it, that answered my July 9th posting : "molly-dooker (Australian English; where a "molly" is an effeminate man and "duke" is slang for hand)" (sorry, can't do blickies) Cheers! R-J
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