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16 Jul 02 - 12:13 PM (#748946) Subject: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: GUEST,Just Wondering The Washington Post has been publishing articles since Sunday about the Bush stock sales at Harken, and the Cheney stock sales (much, much larger) at Halliburton, without actually suggesting legal wrongdoing, or calling for an investigation. Not so coincidentally, the Democrats are not calling for much of an investigation either (likely because they would have to come clean themselves about conflicts of interests in THEIR big business dealings). Nonetheless, there does seem to be a widespread perception that with Bush/Cheney at the helm, we really do have some very paranoid foxes guarding the Wall Street henhouse. Jitters aren't just at the NYSE either--European and Asian markets are now free falling like a set of dominoes. My question is, how serious do people think this issue is? Will there ever be a meaningful housecleaning under Bush/Cheney when they are obviously part of the problem, not part of the solution? How damaging will this stock market scandal be to the economy as a whole in the US, and around the globe? Will Bush/Cheney be able to ride off into the sunset on their ill gotten white horse on election day, and come out unscathed in the morning? What is people's sense of public opinion (no, not the polls, I mean the "on the street" opinions) on this one? |
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16 Jul 02 - 12:20 PM (#748949) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: MMario I find it funny that the same people that claim Bush is an incompetent idiot also seem to claim that he can destroy the economy not only of the US but of the entire world. There seems to be a conflict between the two concepts. |
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16 Jul 02 - 12:28 PM (#748958) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: GUEST,Just Wondering Umm...OK MMario. But that still doesn't change the fact that a) Bush really isn't all that smart, and b) the global stock markets are reacting negatively to the news out of Washington and New York, particularly the free fall on Wall Street. |
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16 Jul 02 - 12:37 PM (#748963) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: MMario Of course he's not smart - he took the job - didn't he? Sure proof of the man's idiocy. but according to every ecomomics book and course I've ever heard - any LONG TERM effect on the global market is decades in the making. |
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16 Jul 02 - 12:42 PM (#748969) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: katlaughing Unfortunately, I think this is so enmeshed with every other "big money" interest, in a global way, that they will be protected. The Dems are not pure and the US economy is in such a co-dependent relationship with the rest of the world that if the biggies went down here, it could destroy the world economy, as we know it. Of course, I may be totally wrong, I hope I am because I'd love nothing better than to see those to idiots run out of office! MMariodarlin'...I believe it is very possible to an idiot and still destroy. It doesn't take much intelligence to be a puppet. |
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16 Jul 02 - 12:44 PM (#748971) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: GUEST,Just Wondering Try reading this "Sleeping giant of a scandal" story at the Boston Globe site: http://www.boston.com/dailyglobe2/197/oped/Sleeping_giant_of_a_scandal+.shtml So with all due respect, I beg to differ, MMario. The biggest federal government's "cook the books" scandal the Bush administration has been holding at arm's length, hoping to hobble it's way past the 5th of November without suffering any major losses of seats in Congress, has yet to make it's appearance on the public opinion radar. But with global markets following the lead of the NYSE, and the Euro and the yen gaining on the dollar, it is looking more and more like Bush/Cheney's honeymoon with the American public is over. Even with the so-called "war" going on.
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16 Jul 02 - 12:44 PM (#748973) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: MMario But if you are a puppet - it is not you doing the destroying...
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16 Jul 02 - 12:47 PM (#748978) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: GUEST,Just Wondering That is called circular logic, MMario. And I'm sure you couldn't have read the Boston Globe and Washington Post articles that fast. Shooting from a diseased hip, are you? |
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16 Jul 02 - 01:41 PM (#749023) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: Mark Cohen Guest, I agree with you, and with the Globe article. The problem is, no matter how bad things get, it's unlikely that most Americans are likely to get up in arms about it. I would venture to say that about 90% of the people who read that op-ed piece (well, maybe 80%), have a MEGO reaction--"my eyes glaze over". No sex (a la Clinton), no murder (a la O.J.), no foreign devil (a la Osama), ergo, no interest. At least, none that will last past the looming baseball strike. To most people (and I confess I include myself to some extent), "THE ECONOMY" is an immense incomprehensible chameleon that takes on the characteristics of whatever the current government or set of commentators wants it to. Wasn't it just a couple of years ago, or less, that we were told that the economy was "stronger than ever", so much so that everybody got a check from the government? (It was almost enough to buy one of those automatic electric muscle exercisers, or a set of Bridgestone tires.) So now we have W telling everybody that he's going to punish those bad corporate chiefs who were being mean and daring to hurt our precious economy. Yeah, right. Meanwhile, more and more of my patients are going on welfare, more and more of my fellow doctors (including me) are leaving town because they can't pay their bills, more and more small businesses are failing, and more and more CEOs are pulling down hundred-million-dollar compensation packages. To my mind, the only good thing about this economic tailspin the corporate presidents and politicians have put us in (and I'm talking about both parties) is that all those huge stock options that are such a big part of the CEOs' golden parachutes may vanish like Enron employees' portfolios. But I'm sure they'll still find a way to steal enough money from us to be comfortable. Aloha, Mark P.S., Guest JW, although I do agree with you, I would make one suggestion: your arguments may be better accepted here on the Mudcat if they're not accompanied by nasty little comments like the one above directed at MMario. It may have been meant with a wink, but it didn't come across that way. |
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16 Jul 02 - 01:44 PM (#749026) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: katlaughing Okay, MMario, maybe not a puppet, but certainly in collusion and an idiot.:-) Of course, if he was a puppet, we could watch his nose and I'll bet the good fairy would never make him into a real boy! "Guest, just wondering"...sniping at posters will not engender a good debate. |
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16 Jul 02 - 02:13 PM (#749044) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: MMario Hi - just wondering, a) I was answering kat's post - not yours b) no - I haven't read the article - I cannot reach it as it is blocked by my content filter. (obviously a plot on Bush's part - because of the subversive content) c) To be truthful - my personal belief is that NO president (as a single person)has truly had an effect on this country since Kennedy (possibly before)- that between party politics and wheeling-dealing plus the effects of mass media the presidency is pretty much reduced to a figurehead/spokesperson/puppet. Of course these are only my opinions -
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16 Jul 02 - 02:45 PM (#749069) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: GUEST,Just Wondering In response to Mark, the question I asked wasn't "what do you think of the economy as a poltical issue". The question I was asking was about the potential for Bush's and Cheney's past actions regarding stock sales becoming a scandal which would effect the upcoming election. I apologize if I didn't make that more clear. Everytime I've logged on to my MSN homepage, there have been links to more mainstream media stories about their behaving in the very same way that the Worldcom, Enron, et al bandits have behaved. The latest link is to Newsweek's story: http://www.msnbc.com/news/779608.asp?pne=msn People may not be upset in the least by the recession if it hasn't effected them, but there are all these John and Jane Doe nouveau investors who are getting burned. Hundreds of thousands of employees have seen their retirement funds go up in smoke, while the corporate leaders of these organizations make millions off their losses. I don't think there is much chance of proving illegal wrongdoing on Bush or Cheney's stock deals. However, the appearance of gross impropriety is, I believe, a credible threat to the electability of Republicans in November, and despite the amount of time until the '04 elections, also creates a potential risk of Bush becoming a de facto lame duck after November because of the taint of scandal on his administration--the one Bush claimed was going to "clean up" politics. |
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16 Jul 02 - 04:20 PM (#749161) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: Lonesome EJ Mark, most Americans probably do see the economy as a baffling mechanism. But what they see more clearly is their vanishing nesteggs. My 401k Fund has lost over 50 percent of its value since Bush took office, and I'm not alone. Wall Street Reform needs to take place immediately, and I'm afraid Bush and Cheney are not going to turn over very many rocks when their past transactions may be hiding under one of them. A dirty broom rarely makes a clean sweep. Wall Street should be the current number one priority for this administration, but we are getting lip service only. I don't think Americans have the patience to wait until things have sorted themselves out. There needs to be a firm hand on the wheel of the economy right now, not someone asleep behind it. |
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16 Jul 02 - 05:12 PM (#749216) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: GUEST I was laid off from my teaching job due to budget cuts for education. I've a sister-in-law who just got laid off from Arthur Anderson, and my brother (her husband) whose job is hanging in the balance at Qwest. They are supporting three kids, one still a toddler, and recently bought a new house they may well lose now. And all this happened to us living in a state with a strong economy. It isn't just about people who are losing money in the stock market who are suffering from corporate criminality by any means. Many, many others are being effected in very tangible ways by these scandals--we are losing pensions, jobs, and homes. And it makes us pretty damn angry, and yes thank you, we do blame the corporate culture for it. The corporate culture that Bush/Cheney is part and parcel of. First MBA president, who both my brother and sister-in-law voted for BTW, who pledged to bring their vaunted corporate accountability to bear on the federal government. Corporate accountability? No thanks. My brother and sister-in-law are voting Democratic this fall, not that it will make any difference. They just want to punish the Republicans for the decade long greed binge. |
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16 Jul 02 - 05:56 PM (#749244) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: DADGBE If you want to get just an inkling of the depths of the sacndal, check out |
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16 Jul 02 - 07:52 PM (#749329) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: GUEST,Clint Keller Getting back to MMario's first post: an incompetent driver can do a lot of damage in the right place. Whether Dubya is driving or not is another question. Clint Keller |
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16 Jul 02 - 08:20 PM (#749345) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: artbrooks There may be some positive fallout from this; enough people may be fed up by the economic "scandal" (as presented by the popular media, in all parts of the political spectrum) to vote the bums out. George Dubya keeps acting as if he had a mandate to govern, rather than having received a minority of the popular vote and a bare (and possibly tainted) majority of the electoral college. Today's Doonesbury may be of interest. |
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16 Jul 02 - 09:51 PM (#749394) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: GUEST Here is the spin from SatireWire: BUSH VOWS CRACKDOWN ON CORPORATE CORRUPTION UNLESS IT HAPPENED IN 1990 Also Exempts Executives Whose Last Name Begins With "B" New York, N.Y. (SatireWire.com) — Vowing to restore faith in capitalism itself, President Bush on Tuesday promised to strengthen accounting laws, impose long prison terms for executives guilty of fraud, and punish any acts of corporate corruption that didn't happen in 1990. "We will use the full weight of the law to expose and root out misdeeds," the President said during a speech on Wall Street. "My administration will do everything in its power to end the days of cooking the books, shading the truth, and breaking the law, unless it occurred the same year the Cincinnati Reds won the World Series." "Also, it doesn't count if a person's last name begins with the letter 'B,'" he added. Critics immediately cried foul, noting that as a director of Harken Energy Corp., Bush sold nearly $850,000 of company stock on June, 22, 1990, just weeks before Harken restated earnings and the share price plunged. Analysts, however, said the President's oft-repeated defense — that he is innocent because the sale occurred in the same year that "Dances with Wolves" won the Academy Award for best picture — now begins to make sense. During his Wall Street appearance, Bush did not refer to his days in business, and instead focused on restoring faith in the markets. To achieve his ambitious goals, he unveiled a 10-point plan, which includes calls for: ¤ A new task force to expose and prosecute white-collar criminals, which the President described as a "financial crimes SWAT team, overseeing the investigation of corporate abusers and bringing them to account no matter if the abuse occurred in 1988, 1989, 1991, 1992, 1993, 1994, 1995, 1996, 1997, 1998, 1999, 2000, 2001, or 2002." ¤ Corporate officers who benefit from false accounting statements should forfeit all money gained by their fraud, unless that number equals $848,560. ¤ Corporate leaders who violate the public trust should never be given that trust again, unless they run for President. ¤ Those who sit on corporate boards must be willing to accept responsibility. Explained Bush: "I urge board members to check the quality of their company's financial statements, to ask tough questions about accounting methods, and to check and see if the problem began on the same day Article IV was added to the Constitution of the Chickasaw Nation, 'cause if it did you're a-okay." Bush ended his speech by appealing to the best in all of us. "Today, I am calling for a new ethic of personal responsibility in the business community," he said, "an ethic that will increase investor confidence, regain the trust of the American people, and not be retroactive." RECOMMEND THIS PAGE Copyright © 2002, SatireWire.
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16 Jul 02 - 09:56 PM (#749396) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: GUEST And for the chronically comically inclined, there is also Ironic Time's spin on the week's news here: http://www.ironictimes.com/ |
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17 Jul 02 - 06:29 PM (#749956) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: Blues=Life As hesitant as I am to jump into this, (I mostly come here for the music), I can't help but worry about statements like: "I don't think there is much chance of proving illegal wrongdoing on Bush or Cheney's stock deals. However, the appearance of gross impropriety is, I believe, a credible threat to the electability of Republicans in November." and "The Washington Post has been publishing articles since Sunday about the Bush stock sales at Harken, and the Cheney stock sales (much, much larger) at Halliburton, without actually suggesting legal wrongdoing, or calling for an investigation." Not to inject facts into a perfectly good political argument, but didn't the press hound B & C to sell off their stock before the election because owning it would be a "conflict of interest"? And maybe I'm missing something, but in reference to: "They just want to punish the Republicans for the decade long greed binge." ummmm..... am I wrong, or wasn't there a Democratic Administration for 8 of the last 10 years? Oh well, I'm off to a jazz festival. Bix Lives! Peace, Blues |
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17 Jul 02 - 09:27 PM (#750072) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: Bobert HA! Bush is the best thing that has happened to the US in a long time. Yeah, when Richard Nixon stood up and said "I'm not a crook" there were about 25% of the the folks who believed him. When it's Junior's turn to deliver his "I'm not a crook" speech, only a few folks, including one loved Catter, will believe him. Now that's progress. And, yeah, the reason the Dems ain't sayin' nuthin is rather obvious. They got a few too many ahnds in a few too many pockets themselves. Yep, the ruling class is lookin' a tad bare these days, but, hey, they don't care. They got just about everyone chained to the assembly lines, in debt paying fir their junky SUV's, houses, etc. so this edition of the "working class" ain't gonna make no waves. Nope, let Jeb Bush and Katerine Harris purge some 60,000 potential Dem voters from the rolls and not a peep from the scared-half-to-death working class. Doesn't really matter 'cause Al Gore would have done the same thing if given the opportunity. The Repubocratic Party is mired in corruption, kickbacks, sleeze of the highest order and down right thievery of your and my rights, dreams and aspirations. Get 'em all out. They're all the same and when you strip of a few layers all you find is a bunch of folks who are concerned about themselves first and if there are any scraps on the table when they push their fat asses away from the table then, that's fir the folks who slave to keep them fat... Ha! Yaeh! Bush couldn't be doing a better job of defining the arrogant, fat cat that lives. much like a parasite, from the labors of others.... He is repulsively representative of his class and maybe that's what it's going to take for folks to wake up and look at alternatives. Vote Green. Bobert |
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17 Jul 02 - 10:22 PM (#750091) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: artbrooks While I agree with many of their positions, voting Green is the same as flushing your vote. At least the Greens here (New Mexico) had whatever it took to say "hell no" to the Republican Party Chair who offered them beaucoup bucks to run candidates in what will be two close elections. |
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17 Jul 02 - 10:42 PM (#750098) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: GUEST,Lintfree Both Bush and Cheney are Republican oil guys. These are the same people who have created the problem with all the graft and corruption and trading on the inside and cashing in on all the advances made during the Clinton Administration. Very well orchestrated this whole thing. You have Clinton setting it all up with NAFTA and GATT to allow their Internationalist buddies to step in and feed like locusts. Insider trading has been the way these people do business for years. If you think that some law is going to stop a few well-placed phone calls to one's best buddies you're sadly mistaken. What amazes me is that people are complaining after handing the government over to a bunch of oil guys, or allowing them to pull their little voter thing in Florida. They're all manipulating the markets and cashing in. Why? It's that old "WIN/WIN SITUATION", play to win, business as usual, survival of the fittest, snooze you lose, "let them eat cake", "Now that we have the Papacy let us enjoy it." That last one was said by a Borgia Pope, I believe. Deregulation is the problem. Regulate them. Make it more difficult to do. Otherwise, bend over and say goodbye to your retirement account. "Compassionate Conservative" my ass!! The New Robber Barons is more likely. If I see that smug smile on Kennith Lay's face again I'm going to puke. Lint |
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17 Jul 02 - 10:52 PM (#750099) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: Bobert Artbrooks: If you are casting votes for the Repubocratic Party then it is you who is "flushing" your vote for you are not voting at all. There is no difference. These two parties are no more that rival fraternaties. Nothing more. They both court the same corporate donors and they both serve as puppets of the ruling class. A Green vote is the the only alternative vote... Bobert |
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18 Jul 02 - 12:34 AM (#750135) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: Lonesome EJ You have to love Bush's choice for Security Exchange Commission chief, the celebrated Mr Pitt. His qualifications include his legal defense of America OnLine's claim that millions of CDs distributed to potential consumers were part of its assets, and not an expense. This is the kind of creative accounting that is gutting Wall Street, and the sleazy Mr Pitt is now supposed to defend against it? Fat chance. As to the Green Party...Bush wouldn't have had a chance without them, and unless they can field a presidential candidate with more charisma than Nader (hell, Ben Stein has more charisma than Nader), they need to stay out of the way next time. It would also be nice if the Dems could field a candidate with more charisma than Nader. |
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18 Jul 02 - 06:38 AM (#750261) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: Mark Cohen Aw, come on, LEJ, it should be obvious that charisma doesn't win elections any more. After all, look at Al Gore. Aloha, Mark |
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18 Jul 02 - 11:48 AM (#750469) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: GUEST I agree with Bobert. If you believe you are casting a meaningful vote in this day and age by voting either Dem or GOP, you are seriously deluding yourselves. However, it isn't only the Green Party which is a true alternative. There are other third parties which could be viable, if people voted as true democratic citizens, instead of sheep of a flock, which has been brainwashed to believe that only the crooks in charge can rule effectively. There are independent parties' elected officials sprinkled here and there throughout the US, including Green Party elected officials in major cities. And why is the only measure of effective democratic change being seen as voting either GOP or Dem? Status quo politicians never change a thing. Think that is a crock? Look to the east--Britain--just what sort of meaningful change has occured there as a result of the landslide victory which put Labour back in the driver's seat. Answer: the corporate elite are stronger than ever, and the quality of life of the average British citizen continues to decline, despite their ability to own a home. Once the hugely inflated housing market collapses, you'll see a serious depression, not just a recession. |
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18 Jul 02 - 01:31 PM (#750548) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: DougR Bobert, I'm with you! Vote Green everybody! :>) DougR |
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18 Jul 02 - 01:48 PM (#750558) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: Lonesome EJ It figures that it would take someone with Nader's amazing charisma to bring Bobert and DougR together! :>} |
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18 Jul 02 - 01:49 PM (#750559) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: EBarnacle1 Note today's DOONESBURY, in which Bush shies away from comparisons to Whitewater. The difference between the crooks and the leaders is betting caught. They all have feet of clay. Any more cliches out there? |
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18 Jul 02 - 03:37 PM (#750612) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: Bobert HELP! Anyone live near DougR? Well, run... don't walk... up to his house and see if you can find any evidence of an alien spaceship landing in his back yard. No? Well, then look to see if their are any hexes written in chalk on the front sidewalk. None of them? Hmmmmmmm? Okay, now don't go near ol' Douggie cause I think one of them X File worms came in his last box of Cheerios and I believe the boy done swallowed it. Hey, I'll get Skully and Muldare on the case right away... Bobert |
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18 Jul 02 - 03:56 PM (#750624) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: DougR *BG* |
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18 Jul 02 - 04:02 PM (#750628) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: Lonesome EJ You're a bad cat, doug! Now spit out that canary! |
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18 Jul 02 - 04:05 PM (#750633) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: McGrath of Harlow "I find it funny that the same people that claim Bush is an incompetent idiot also seem to claim that he can destroy the economy not only of the US but of the entire world. There seems to be a conflict between the two concepts."
Can't see the conflict, Mario. You don't have to be smart to set fire to a neighbourhood while you're trying to cook your dinner.
Now if the suggestion was that he was intentionally setting out to wreck things, there might be a conflict, since achieving what you are trying to do is the essential measure of competence. But accidentally screwing things up and having them blow up on you, that doesn't require competence. |
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18 Jul 02 - 07:25 PM (#750734) Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Cheney stock sales: Scandalous? From: artbrooks |