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19 Jul 02 - 06:49 AM (#750967) Subject: Jazz, anyone? From: Jerry Rasmussen From time to time, I'll see references on music threads to other kinds of music Catters like. Us being mostly high-mileage models, it's usually in the Chuck Berry, Buddy Holly era, or maybe the Byrds, Buffalo Springfield or the Holy Modal Rounders... the connection to folk and blues is usually pretty noticeable. I have a great love of jazz, but hardly know anyone who shares it. I ran a folk concert series for 27 years and up until the last two or three, I drew good crowds. I ran a jazz concert series for 5 years and the best crowds were far smaller than the average folk music audience. I finally had to stop it for lack of interest. I can think of a grand total of three people I know who share my love for jazz. Two of them are Catters... Art Thieme and Mudlark. Usually, when I mention that I like jazz, people's eyes glaze over or they say, I liked that song by Kenny G (which ain't jazz...) So, I'm wondering... is there anyone out there who listens to jazz? I find myself going to Stanley Turrentine, Gene Harris, Kenny Burrell and the West Coast Jazz of the sixties most commonly, but I also have a great love for the traditional jazz of New Orleans.
So fess up, Catters... I've still got seven fingers left on my hands to count people I know who love jazz. At least I think so. I never was good at math.. :-) Jerry |
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19 Jul 02 - 06:57 AM (#750971) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Dagmar yes certainly I do.. but not so much the ones you mentionecd....ever heard of Misha Alperin ? great russian pianist who combines jazz and folk in a quite avantgardistic way....also recently went to a concert of a swedish group called.... something svensson trio... fantastic stuff but best life..also jan garbarek still good life actually and what about mari boine which category would they fit in but guess I am moving away too much from this page here.... nevertheless good to hear peoples recommondations greetings from dagmar |
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19 Jul 02 - 07:07 AM (#750975) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: greg stephens Count me in Jerry. Louis Armstrong, Johnny StCyr,Kid Ory,Johnny Dodds,Lil Hardin. Will that do for the entree into your secret society? |
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19 Jul 02 - 07:52 AM (#750989) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: mooman Count me in! Lady McMoo and I have a number of jazz standards and new jazz/blues numbers in our current repertoire of stuff we sometimes perform together. Best regards, mooman |
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19 Jul 02 - 08:40 AM (#751006) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Giac Hmmm, well, how about John Coltrane, Charles Mingus, Charlie Parker, Thelonius Monk, Ella Fitzgerald? I like Kid Ory, too. I'd just put on a Coltrane CD when I noticed this thread. Mary |
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19 Jul 02 - 09:18 AM (#751020) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Steve Latimer I like the older stuff, Reinhardt & Grapelli, Armstrong, Miller, Holliday. I find a lot of the newer stuff that I've heard to be noodling. |
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19 Jul 02 - 09:26 AM (#751024) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: rich-joy Abso-bloody-lutely, Jerry!!!!!!! (has a fair following Down Under too ...) Cheers! R-J |
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19 Jul 02 - 09:33 AM (#751026) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Steve Parkes Don't love it, but I like it. Very much. Steve |
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19 Jul 02 - 09:49 AM (#751045) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Bee-dubya-ell I like jazz if the instrumentation is string-oriented. Play it using guitars, violins, mandolins and banjos and I'm a rapt audience. Pull out a lot of horns and keyboards and I'm outa there. I much prefer acoustic otientation, but will listen to a good electric guitarist. Bruce |
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19 Jul 02 - 09:57 AM (#751049) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: BanjoRay My first three years of playing the banjo were in a trad jazz session in a pub, and occasional sitting in with the band. While heavily into Old Time string bands now, my latest CD is by Joe Venuti and Eddie Lang - sublime stuff. Cheers |
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19 Jul 02 - 11:35 AM (#751094) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: M.Ted Count me in--I've been listening a lot to Django lately, also Barney Kessel, Joe Pass-- wish I could find some Billy Bauer stuff to listen to--love the other instruments, too, from Bud Powell and Lennie Tristano to James P. Johnson--anyway, Jazz is folk music too-- |
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19 Jul 02 - 11:46 AM (#751099) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Mark Clark I'm a big jazz fan too, especially bebop. The more new age things get, the faster I'm outta there. I like the older jazz too, gimmie Bix or Sidney or "The quintet" and you'll have to chase me off. - Mark |
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19 Jul 02 - 12:41 PM (#751126) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Mudlark Ahhhh....thanks for this thread, Jerry! Just seeing all these great names makes me happy. Any kind of guitar--jazz, classical, folk--has a special place in my heart, but oh, those sexy, smoky, late-night sax sounds...how empty life would be without them! That Turintine Ballads album is so good I can't seem to wrestle it out of the CD player.
One thing I like about good jazz (I agree, Kenny G...not) is that is can be both foreground--and background, when necessary. When I'm listening to folk, it demands my entire attention, I listen to every word, every nuance. But some mellow jazz in the background is perfect for other occupations, like writing, and is even very conducive to convivial conversation. Too many favorites to name in the jazz genre, but Mulligan and Desmond spring instantly to mind...Dexter Gordon, Bill Evans...don't get me started! |
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19 Jul 02 - 12:55 PM (#751132) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: fogie Nnnniiice! I try to listen in to the jazz progs Sat evening Radio3 and the Saturday showcases around 11pm after Andy Kershaw. The more I hear the more it fascinates, but I like the early stuff best. Don't knock Kenny G -I wish I could play like him, He's got a lovely sense of mild Klezmer Funk, and his tunes are nice, It takes all kinds- many rooms in the house etc. |
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19 Jul 02 - 02:52 PM (#751190) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: C-flat Hi Jerry, As you know I'm a big "hot-club" fan, mostly because of Djangos' guitar playing. As a guitar player I do tend to be drawn to music/musicians where the guitar features heavily. I'm not a great fan of "modern" jazz, I prefer to be able to tap my foot and "join-in" the melody. I once had the chance to visit Ronnie Scotts' jazz club in London and was looking forward to seeing some great musicians in an intimate environment, but instead I was treated to some technically great musicians who seemed to be each playing a different piece of music at the same time. They started together and they finished together, so they clearly understood it, but it left me unmoved. As for "big-band" jazz, whilst I don't listen to it at home, I occasionally go to listen in to a local group of musicians while they rehearse on Sunday mornings. It's very powerful and quite educational to watch the band leader pull together this large ensemble into a cohesive unit. I've played a fair bit of jazz guitar, either with a gypsy-jazz trio or as a dep' for the big band, and found it an extremely sharp learning curve which I've been able to take with me into other areas of music. So, in answer to your question, YES, count me in! |
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19 Jul 02 - 03:02 PM (#751196) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Ebbie I know very little about jazz itself- although I've always liked Dixieland. The other night at music, the father of one of the musicians played some standards for us on the piano like Easy to Love, Darktown Strutters Ball and some others. He is very good and it was a joy to listen to. What seemed so remarkable was how supple and strong his hands are, and he is, I imagine, in his upper 70s. For years he played in the Dean Bushnell orchestra in the Denver area. |
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19 Jul 02 - 03:16 PM (#751202) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Mudlark Hi Fogie....I don't knock Kenny G at all--just don't think of his music as jazz (altho IMO its not as rich or complex as, say, Coltrane or Monk), any more than I think of Billy Joel as folk music. I'm all for musicians making real music, whether I happen to like it or not. |
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19 Jul 02 - 06:52 PM (#751308) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Rick Fielding Jerry, jerry, jerry! I guess you weren't here when I was trying to jam THISRedhot Jazz down everyone's throat. What an amazing site it is. Listen to the very first multi-tracked recording. (No it isn't Les Paul, it's Sidney Bechet playing six instruments in the thirties) Feeling down? I just listen to Bix play "Singin' the Blues" over and over again. There is so much here, that even though I've been listening and reading for two years I've only scratched the surface. Enjoy. Rick P.S. As I mentioned in the other thread, we're still enjoyin' The Gospel Messengers for breakfast.....starting to hum and tap along. |
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19 Jul 02 - 07:00 PM (#751312) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: greg stephens I learned incredible amounts from Venuti/Lang.Any folkie guitarist should have a listen to Eddie Lang just to hear how a perfect accompanist works.Mind you it nearly made me give up. |
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19 Jul 02 - 07:07 PM (#751314) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: C-flat Wow Rick! I guess I wasn't here either when you were jamming this down everyones throat. Fantastic site!!! |
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19 Jul 02 - 07:10 PM (#751318) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: McGrath of Harlow New Orleans and such like, yes indeed. I get confused by most things that stray too far from that.
Basically what I like is Jazz that feels like it's folkmusic rather than art music, and for dancing rather than listening to. Which is the way I feel about instrumental music generally.
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19 Jul 02 - 07:30 PM (#751328) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Peter Kasin Yes, I'm a big fan of jazz. I listen to alot of bop and hard bop - Parker, Gillespie, Fats Navarro, Kinny Dorham, early Lee Morgan. Favorite jazz singers - Billie Holiday, Anita O'Day, and my favorite lovemaking CD - "My Funny Valentine:Chet Baker Sings For lovers." I also listen to John Coltrane in his various stages of development. Among the new crop of musicians? Joe Lovano is very good - haven't kept up with the latest performers, though. Always open to recommendations. Chanteyranger
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19 Jul 02 - 08:19 PM (#751352) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,Tix Retter The following is a quote by G. Gershwin and is taken from William G Hyland's book 'The Song is Ended'.
"Jazz I regard as an American folk-music - not the only one but a very powerful one which is probably in the
'In class wars, it is the side that wins who kills most.'
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19 Jul 02 - 08:50 PM (#751360) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Rt Revd Sir jOhn from Hull Jazz, mmmmh Great! |
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19 Jul 02 - 09:25 PM (#751368) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: mack/misophist Yes, please. Do you think the problem could be that the jazz sound is so diverse that, while the generic answer is always yes, the specific answer may often be no? |
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19 Jul 02 - 09:55 PM (#751380) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Art Thieme The man himself, LESTER YOUNG's sax----especially playin' duets with NAT COLE---piano. The film BIRD. The film ROUND MIDNIGHT. Dexter Gordon's nomintion for an Academy Award in that one should've won him the statue. Monk, Chet, Bird Parker, Mulligan, Teagarden, Ahmad Jamal at the Pershing Lounge live LP--Chicago, The jazz score from the film I Want To Live so many other musicians, LPs etc. Joe Venuti, Stuff Smith, Red Rodney-trumpet) duet jazz with Ira Sullivan on sax after putting down his trumpet and learning sax seemingly over night !!) And so much more... Art Thieme
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19 Jul 02 - 09:56 PM (#751381) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Mudlark Chantyranger...I have the original 10-in Fantasy recording of Baker's Songs...one of those transparent neon blue jobs. Played it thin as a kid. Great range of songs, too...Funny Valentine, But Not for Me, I Get Along Without you Very Well. Sexy, wistful....but not as heartbreaking as his rendition of Blame it On My Youth from the Let's Get Lost soundtrack. |
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20 Jul 02 - 02:43 AM (#751457) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Kaleea Yes, I do love Jazz, & many styles of Jazz, especially the very early Jazz music. I listened to Jazz records--in addition to the Beatles & all the top 40's on the local teen station when I was a kid, & never knew other kids who listened to Jazz--except for the boy from France who was my pen pal (through a teen magazine, of course!). The older I get, the more I love the early Jazz greats such as Duke, Count, Louis, the many singers & instrumentalists who committed their lives to traveling in old busses from town to town performing & often having to sleep in the bus or train station, for no hotel they played in would permit them to sleep there. And I love to hear rare recordings of the music from which both Jazz & Bluegrass/Gospel sprang from, and how the music wandered about & was influenced by various ethnic populations in cities or the wailing sound of the deep south which both Bluegrass & Blues came from. Which takes us back to where we are, as good Bluegrass instrumentalists play improvised variations on a theme with solid rhythm backup, and is, to me, side by side with Jazz. Jazz has more horns and syncopation, but is very much the same as Bluegrass. And I am just as comfortable performing one as the other--vocal &/or instrumental. I was playing rhythm guitar (& thumping out the walking bass lines with my thumb) in a ceoli band several years back, when I realized that the ragtime music of Tin Pan Alley care directly from what we were playing! It is a natural thing that we lovers of "traditional" music would love the Art form invented right here in the USA-- the traditional music of America (still being passed down from generation to generation) wich we call Jazz! |
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20 Jul 02 - 04:11 AM (#751482) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,Sonja I love trad Jazz, especially the old jazz standards of the 20s through early 50s. |
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20 Jul 02 - 12:11 PM (#751613) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: fat B****rd Yeah Man !! Hot 5s and 7s, Kansas City style, Basie, Ellington, Parker et al, Charles Lloyd, Lee Morgan, Bill Evans.........the list is endless for me, sadly unlike the lives of so many greats including my particular favourite Julian "Cannonball" Adderley. |
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20 Jul 02 - 12:24 PM (#751618) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,Leadfingers The first Folk Club I Joined was the Hermitage Zazz and Folk Song Club in Hitchin.Louis Killen ran the Folk club and the first Guest I saw there was Red Sullivan (of Troubadour fame)Up to that point I was a serious clarinet and sax man with a strong leaning towards Jonny Dodds and Sidney Bechet.I now play guitar and banjo and mandolin and still like to sit in at Jazz sessions on Whistle. |
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20 Jul 02 - 01:06 PM (#751640) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,.gargoyle My tastes are in tune with Giac and Thieme
Ahmad Jamal Bill Evans Clare Fischer Theolonious Monk John Coltrane
Dave Brubeck Quartet George Gershwin
Sincerely, |
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21 Jul 02 - 01:46 AM (#751898) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Genie Since I sing and play (guitar) for a lot of retirement residences and senior centers, there's a lot of demand for the popular & jazz standards from the '20s, '30s, '40s, etc. I don't mind at all, since there are so many great songs to choose from. I love Louis Armstrong, Cab Calloway, Duke Ellington, Ella Fitzgerald, Billie Holiday, Ruth Brown, I've had to broaden my guitar skills (especially expanding my arsenal of chords) as I started branching out from folk and country/western. I think one reason I like doing jazz standards is that my voice is suited to that kind of music as well as or better than to traditional folk (though I didn't think so when I first started out). Glad to hear there are other "folkies" who appreciate jazz in its various forms, too. Genie |
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21 Jul 02 - 02:28 AM (#751899) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Benjamin I'm not a huge jazz fan. Still, out is West Virgina a couple years ago I got hear an increadible pianist named Bross Townsend. He's blind and appearently even lost some feeling in his hands, which makes what I heard even more amazing. I had the chance to meet him a couple times the next day. He and his wife are very sweet people. Anyone interested in Jazz (or not) should really look into him. |
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21 Jul 02 - 10:44 AM (#751954) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,vl There are great songs and tunes from every era but around 1955 to circa '64 were really great,IMO. Miles Davis, Coltrane, McCoy Tyner,Monk, Sonny Rollins, Bill Evans and a bunch of others turned out some of their best stuff during this period. Also love Bix, Jellyroll Morton, Lang, Venuti, Frankie Trumbauer and them from that period and Lester Young on the Kansas City Six recordings and the early stuff he did with Billie Holiday (his two choruses on her Man I Love are about as good as it gets). vl |
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21 Jul 02 - 11:22 AM (#751962) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Bill D did you miss this link a few days ago? Red Hot Jazz is there, along with others.....and everything you'd ever want to know about old records.... |
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21 Jul 02 - 05:48 PM (#752113) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: McGrath of Harlow Looks a brilliant site - but for some reason I can never get the streaming sound files on the site to work for me. Very frustrating. |
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21 Jul 02 - 07:13 PM (#752132) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,rob I love jazz too. I think what draws me the most to it (and also to alot of folk and bluegrass) is the improvisation. Not only is it impressive to me that people can improvise in music together so well, but i find it very easy to get caught up in a peice that is improvised. I start to feel what the artist is feeling and my energy levels will, during the course of a jazz cd or song, match those of the music. I will often put on some upbeat jazz when i am trying to finish a term paper or put on slower, more mellow stuff when i come back from a workout to help slow me down. For me Jazz and folk music together comprise the music of life, because in a sense, it is alive. No other kind of music touches me like they do. -rob |
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21 Jul 02 - 08:04 PM (#752162) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Bill D hmmm, McGrath...most streaming files are Real Audio...unless you have some setting turned off, it should work....*shrug*...(at least there are downloadable ones in the pages) |
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22 Jul 02 - 03:46 AM (#752270) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Peter Kasin Mudlark, hang onto that one! |
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22 Jul 02 - 07:09 AM (#752301) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Mooh There were interesting workshop/performances at Home County Folk Festival yesterday (London Ontario Canada) which featured alot of jazz and blues. Players/singers included Mose Scarlet, Curly Boy Stubbs, Ken Whiteley, Jackie Washington, Georgette Fry, and others (sorry, I'm doing this from memory). Some jazz and blues standards played with the same instrumentation as folkies and bluegrassers would use, and it works very well. I guess good music is good music regardless of instrumentation. Gotta say that Whiteley's mandolin playing was spot on. The drift of tunes from genre to genre can be quite revealing. All music is derivative, most is more closely related than the industry would have us believe, and the folk process works equally well in non-"folk" musics. Anyway, to me at least, it's not so much how music is played but how it's heard. Lots of folk (and folkies) can play with great ability in other styles, but tend to hear in their preferred style. There's lots of fun to be had when the styles are stretched. Think I'll listen to something different today. Peace, Mooh. |
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22 Jul 02 - 07:31 AM (#752305) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: KingBrilliant Someone told me that it would take me two years before I could really appreciate Jazz - so although I had enjoyed the CD he had lent me, I couldn't possibly have been enjoying it right. That's the side of jazz that gets right on my tights, so to speak. I like a bit of mellow good-time sunny-day jazz though (if I may be allowed to do so). KRis |
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22 Jul 02 - 07:55 AM (#752314) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: MikeofNorthumbria Hi Jerry!
Quite a few of the hard-core folkies I know are keen jazzers. Many others are not (a few can't bear the stuff). I can't recall any other factor that correlates with this division - but then taste in music is such a very personal thing.
For me, a remark Humphrey Lyttleton made in a radio interview gets pretty close to explaining the unique appeal of this kind of music. Humph said "Jazz is the only kind of music which appeals simultaneously to the head, the heart, and the feet." I would't agree entirely - try dancing to an Ornette Coleman record - but I see what he's getting at.
For me, there are no clear frontiers between "folk" and "jazz". Last Saturday night, I was at a ceilidh held to celebrate the 25th birthday of Hexham Morris men. The band (Peeping Tom) finished the evening with a Circassian Circle, danced to "I Got Rythym" and "Puttin' on the Ritz". It worked beautifully - I'm sure George Gershwin would have been pleased (though Fred Astaire might not have approved of some of the stepping). Wassail! |
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22 Jul 02 - 05:25 PM (#752636) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Jerry Rasmussen Wow!!! My wife and I went away for four days up to Burlington Vermont, (and stuck our toes over the boarder into Canada. When we left there were 3 responss to this thread... I get back and there are 43! I usually like to respond to messages that are posted, but 40 is just too big a list for me. Most of all, I am pleased (and a little surprised) at how many folkies love jazz) I'm not as surprised that people like the old New Orleans, early blues. traditional jazz mixes. That seems very natural to me. Same with singers like Billie Holliday and Hoagy Carmichael. It all flows together for me. I see fewer people mentioning more "modern" (which is now somewhat old-fashioned, being almost old-fashioned musicians like Mulligan, Brubeck, Coltrane, Monk. After all, we ARE folkies. I haven't seen a single mention of any musician (maybe I've overlooked one) who wasn't recording at least thirty years ago. No mention of people like Roy Hargrove, Josh Redman, Cyrus Chestnut and some of the new "Young Lions." There's an interesting CD of Dave Brubeck, playing with some of the current jazz musicians in their twenties.
Just to respond to some folks who have posted on this thread..
Gioc: You mention several of my favorites... Charlie Mungus, Charlie Parker, Thelonius Monk and Ella Fitzgerald. I love the Ella and Louis duet stuff, too. My favorite jazz vocalist is a toss up between Ella and Carmen MacRae. Most of the time, I respond more to Carmen because she often recorded with a small combo, which suits my ears better than an orchestra with strings. But, I love Ella, nonetheless.
Mudlark: I knowwww what you like! Mulligan and Desmond.. remember when they were unlike anything we ever heard. Now, some of those modern recordings are almost fifty years old. We must be even older than that. :-)
C-Flat: I knowww what you like, too... There was a time when I was in college when someone came in my room and looked at my modest collection of l.p.s (which cost $3.98) over here. After flipping through them, he said, "You like guitar, I see..." I had Barney Kessell, Sal Salvadore, Tal Farlow, Jimmy Raney, George Van Epps and even lesser known jazz guitar albums... Lou Monte? (on Blue Note.) I wanted to be a jazz guitarist until I realized that it would take work, and I wouldn't sound good unless I have other musicians to play with. George Van Epps was one of my real favorites because he finger-picked a seven string guitar with the seventh string being a deep bass. He was self-contained. If you haven't heard anything by him, I may have to remedy that situation.
Rick: Thanks for the site! Hey, if I ever get the Messengers up to Canada, we will definitely stop over for breakfast... :-)
Art: And I DEFINITELY know what you like. For most of my life, until I ran across Mudlark, you were the only person I could share my love of jazz with, and we overlap almost completely on the music we love... Thanks for sharing it with me all these years.
Kaleaa: Yes, I love the smattering of recordings that combine early jazz, blues and gospel... To hear someone belting out "Come Over Here" with la tuba in the background really gives me a kick. Frankie, one of my friends in the Gospel Messengers, explained the difference between gospel and juke joint music. In gospel you can jump up and down, but don't move your hips sideways... that's what you do in a juke joint. The difference between Holy and Secular music is all in the hips. :-)
Gargoyle: No surprise to see your list... it's all stuff that Art and I have exchanged, over the years.
Genie: A great list of songs for nursing homes... although I've found that many people in nursing homes think that those vintage songs are too new. I always get a kick out of that... I've gone back to Bicycle Built For Two and And The Band Played On, when that happens.
Bill D: Thanks for the link. When I click the blue clicky it says that the message is dead, but I can still pull up lists. I just got a two CD set of old black gospel and spirituals from 78's from venerable records, and while it's hardly "easy listening" it's fascinating stuff.
Thanks to everyone else who chipped in. Jerry |
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23 Jul 02 - 02:02 AM (#752857) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Genie Mike of N., In case anyone misunderstood your post, "Puttin' On The Ritz" is Berlin, not Gershwin. ("I Got Rhythm" is G.G.) Y'know, folks, the thing that makes it hard for me--and maybe some of the rest of you--to state categorically whether I like "jazz" or not is that it's such a BROAD category! I watched the whole 10-hour Ken Burns documentary on "Jazz" and realized that I lot of it (blues, dixieland, swing, jive, R&B, and some improv., etc.) I tend to like--almost any "jazz" that has a strong beat and you can dance to--, but that some of it (e.g., most be-bop and what I call "elevator jazz") leaves me cold or bored. I guess I like it if it moves me through its rhythm (like Brubeck's "Time Out") and/or the emotional content (like Miles Davis's "Sketches Of Spain"). But if it just seems to ramble all over the place and be rather amorphous, it just turns into background noise for me. To each her own, I guess. Genie |
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23 Jul 02 - 02:40 AM (#752862) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Peter Kasin Real appreciation for the pure genius Parker and of bop happened, for me, when I listened to the track "Ko Ko." Absolute, unadulterated genius. It may take a few listenings before it kicks in, but when it does.... MikeofNorthumbria, I agree with you on the "feet" portion of that quote. There is a whole body of work that is not meant to be danced to, but to be listened to as intently as any great concerto or operatic work. |
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23 Jul 02 - 10:10 PM (#753468) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,GUEST Peter Schikele once said, "All musics are created equal." "Jazz" and "folk" are really just labels that the music industry has us use. And when you come right down to it, jazz and folk have at least one common ancestor, the blues. The bluegrass people already know this -- people like Bela Fleck are doing jazzy kindsa things with banjos and it sounds great. Hey -- take any folk song -- throw in a few major seventh chords, maybe a ninth if it sounds good -- sing it in a breathy kinda voice -- you got jazz. ;-p By the way, you folk guitarists should check out the book "All Blues for Jazz Guitar" which covers the concept of "fat chords," a whole different way of playing folk.... dan |
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24 Jul 02 - 04:14 PM (#753936) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Bull Am I think that Dan's point is excellent because when one take a good look at the roots and origins of jazz music, it really is just a developed strain of folk music. I simply adore jazz, and although I tend to stick to the 20s, 30s, and 40s, I have a profound respect and amazement for the degree of sheer musical literacy and expertise the genre requires in all (or even most) of its forms. I've posted a message before that hailed Armstrong as one of the most influential performers of the century, and I stand by my conviction that he is one of the first jazz stars, but also one of the first blues/folk champions. Also, I'm absolutely in love with the music and the singing style of Fats Waller...He had a way of tickling the keyboard that sets him in another realm, and I highly recommend any recordings that you can get your hands on. Also, I think that the genre's songwriters were absolutely unparallelled in their genius. Of course, there are greats like Gershwin, Porter, Berlin, Ellington, etc...But also the lesser known contributors: Eubey Blake, John Lewis, Errol Gardner, etc. Jazz is a genre that will stay close to my heart for all of my days. |
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24 Jul 02 - 06:55 PM (#754031) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: RangerSteve Count me in as a jazz fan, mostly stuff from the 20's and early 30's. Some occasional big band music too. I especially like James P. Johnson - his "Yamikraw" (I probably spelled that wrong) deserves the same fame as "Rhapsody in Blue", as does the rest of his symphonic jazz. I'm also a Raymond Scott fan, although there seems to be some argument as to whether or not his music is really jazz. |
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24 Jul 02 - 08:06 PM (#754081) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Genie Dan, ("Hey -- take any folk song -- throw in a few major seventh chords, maybe a ninth if it sounds good -- sing it in a breathy kinda voice -- you got jazz.") I'm with you. I did this, kinda tongue in cheek, a few years ago with "Wild Mountain Thyme" (using major and minor 7ths, a 9th, and a minor 6th) and told the audience it was "Irish jazz." They loved it. *G* When I read threads about "three-chord songs" I often cringe at some of the songs that are suggested as being such. I use at least 9 chords in "Home On The Range," including a minor 6th, 3 7ths, and 2 minor 7ths. It's still not what I'd call jazz, but it sure makes for more interesting background and harmony than 3 chords would.
To paraphrase Linda Richman, Genie
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24 Jul 02 - 09:12 PM (#754122) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Jerry Rasmussen As long as I started this thread, I might as well politely offer my disagreement that you can just throw in a few more chords and folk music becomes jazz. To me, jazz is as much a feeling as a series of particular chords. And, most traditional folk music at least IS based on three chords. That doesn't mean that you can't add chords to your own taste. For me, the great appeal of folk music has always been its simplicity. I've heard a lot of string bands try to do jazz and for the most part, they sound like string bands trying to do jazz. A couple of weeks ago, I heard a woman playing a piano accompaniment from sheet music for a black gospel song, and it really sounded weird. She was playing the notes on the page correctly, but it didn't have any feeling to it. I've heard technically proficient guitar players do ragtime piano pieces that could put you to sleep. They got every note right, but the rhythm was stiff.
But, that's just my opinion... Jerry |
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25 Jul 02 - 02:33 AM (#754231) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: SlickerBill I actually got into jazz by way of fusion back in the '70's. I was listening to a lot of rock, and I met this musician who suggested Chick Corea, Weather Report, and Billy Cobham. Hooked me. Since then my tastes have broadened out as they'll tend to do with age; more bebop, esp. Charlie Parker and Coltrane. The early Louis Armstrong is great. And of course Miles Davis. And one of the best cd's Ive bought in a long time is Cassandra Wilson, "Travelling Miles", though her others are great as well. Great guitar on those albums. sb |
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25 Jul 02 - 04:35 PM (#754570) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: M.Ted As always, in your clear but understated way, Jerry, you've got it right--the "feel" is everything in jazz--Jazz really is the development of rhythmic ideas using a chordal framework that really comes from western classical music, anyone can play the notes, but Before you can really play jazz, you have to have the "feeling"--
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25 Jul 02 - 08:52 PM (#754701) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Genie Jerry R, As you say, jazz is as much a feeling as a series of particular chords. And, most traditional folk music at least IS based on three chords. Valid point, but when musicians start modifying chords, the tune often gets modulated, too. That's one of the most striking things, to me, about "jazz" renditions of folk and pop songs or even of classical music pieces. The tune almost always gets rearranged or used as a springboard for improvisations on the theme. I'd agree that if you keep the folky style and just fancy up the chords, it's still folk. (I was kinda jesting about "Home On the Range" and "Wild Mountain Thyme" being jazz if you used different chords.) On the other hand, the feeling/style of a song can also change without changing the chord structure much. I've heard a simple tune such as Gershwin's "Summertime," done as folk, opera (or folk opera), pop, jazz, etc., with little or no modification of the chords, but with changes in tempo, syncopations, vocal style, etc. I don't know what chords Gerswhin specified that song for "Porgy and Bess," but it can sound pretty jazzy without any chords more sophisticated than A minor and E7th. (Of course, if you're playing the sax or trumpet, chords aren't involved, so it's gotta be something else that makes it jazz as opposed to pop or folk.) |
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25 Jul 02 - 10:05 PM (#754719) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Jerry Rasmussen Hi, Genie: One of the pleasures for me, of jazz is when they take a song not considered a jazz piece, and really swing it. I have a Jim Hall CD where they do a nice take on the theme to the Flintstones. But, jazz musicians often have the same problems opening up an unlikely song and giving it a jazz feeling as folk musicians do. Too often, they sound like jazz musicians trying to make something that's not comfortably fitted for jazz sound "jazzy." My favorite successful effort of a jazz musician is probably the valve trombone player, Bob Brookmeyer. He did an album titled Traditionalism Revisited, taking old songs like Ja Da and Show Me The Way To Go Home and miraculously transforming them into something that sounded like the recordings he did with Gerry Mulligan. Not surprising in a way because Mulligan had a great feel for simple, swinging melodies in his own compositions. Even Dave Brubeck did a nice version of Camptown Races. :-) Jerry |
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26 Jul 02 - 02:22 AM (#754781) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Jazz IS the pure distilled essence of PLAY.
It is fun. In some ways it is like letting a Muse take possesion of your soul and allowing it to lead you to new discoveries which are to be experienced.... only.... once. Like a sculpture in sand it quickly disintegrates and gives rebirth to a new form.
There are loosely defined rules, but ALL of them, tempo, rhythem, harmony bow in subjugation to the theme and variation in all its myriade of forms....and in their homage to themeALL rules may be broken...nothing is "mechanical."
I believe it is this ellusive changing character of form that creates the fascination to its listeners, and its artists. It is never repetitive or boring.
Sincerely, |
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26 Jul 02 - 02:55 AM (#754787) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Genie Interesting definition, Gargoyle. It begs the question: Couldn't classical music then be "jazz" if the composer--say, Beethoven--had a recording device and instead of writing out the score, just performed the variations on a theme live? Or if you had the chamber music quartet "wing it," even if it ended up with the same kind of sound a classical quartet usually has? Is it the act of scoring the music that makes it "not jazz?" Genie |
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26 Jul 02 - 10:08 PM (#755267) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Genie - you are right!
There have been some very creative nights with chamber ensembles "winging it." Some of the greatest music ever played never made its way to commercial distribution.
The genius came from the original composer … but…exhaustion, and boredom… give rise to the Muse of play and the musicians soar into planes never imagined two centuries ago.
Whether it is classical or folk…the insecure and the anal-minded…are quick to criticize with, …"But, but, but, THAT is NOT how it is SUPPOSED to be done."
Don't get me wrong – the masters should be played and interpreted in traditional forms…but, but, but, EVEN THE MASTERS had fun and played around and created themes and variations. Mr. Mozart was a playful trickster, as were the three B's in making fun of their predecessors.
Creativity springs from the foundations of our culture and training. We are currently in the clove-of-a-vortex-change creating a hybrid born of classical, rock, rap, ska, techno, blues, jazz.... and most importantly, an immediate-internet-spawned….international exchange of musical expression.
Work Hard, Have Fun, Play Around
Sincerely,
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26 Jul 02 - 10:12 PM (#755269) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Genie - You are also wrong
Jazz is much, much, Much, MUCH,
Sincerely, |
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26 Jul 02 - 10:14 PM (#755270) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Sorry, that final MUCH should have been......... MORE |
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27 Jul 02 - 12:48 AM (#755326) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Genie Gargoyle, "...take jazz to the limits and you arrive at John Cage." OK. Then, is silence jazz? *G* Genie |
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27 Jul 02 - 02:30 AM (#755368) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Genie - I take it - YOU are NOT a musician?
The "rest" is one of the most powerful elements in ALL of music...ANY type of music....including jazz....unfortunately the novice tends to rush it and not appreciate its full effect.
Sincerely, |
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27 Jul 02 - 07:45 AM (#755427) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Jerry Rasmussen Hi, Genie: I seem to be running into you on several threads these days. And yes, Gargoyle, Genie IS a MUSICIAN.:-)
And Mister Gargoyle, Sir, one of the three B's has probably been swung and rocked more than any classical musician... Mr. Bach. Just as there is a strong connection between New Orleans jazz and blues, there is an equally strong relationship between Bach and alot of "Modern" jazz of the sixties. I have many recordings by small jazz groups of variations on tunes written by Mr. Bach, and there is a very similar feel in the playfulness of the improvisation. A good jazz musician can make music on a sheet of paper "swing," and I'm sure that Mr. Bach had his swinging moments. Even rock musicians have drawn on Bach... the Nice did a great swinging version of a Bach piece that segued into a Dylan song. What do you get when you take jazz to it's limits? I didn't realize it had any. :-) Jerry |
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27 Jul 02 - 12:24 PM (#755489) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Lonesome EJ Jazz to me is notable for its improvisation, its exploratory nature, and its eclectic instrumentation. I am not, however, a big fan of purely instrumental forms. I find jazz that uses vocals more interesting, with some exceptions. Kind of Blue is still my favorite Jazz album, mainly because of the amazing contrast of styles by Davis, Coltrane, and Adderly. I also was, at an early age, a big fan of the Oscar Peterson Trio. The female voice seems to lend itself to the improvisational aspects of Jazz, and I like to listen to Billie Holiday, Ella Fitzgerald, and the greatest, Sarah Vaughn. And speaking of Folkies...Joni Mitchell has some great Jazz material in her body of work. |
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27 Jul 02 - 12:41 PM (#755494) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Jerry Rasmussen Hi, Lonesome: (Didn't they make a documentary about you?.. High Lonesome Sound?):-)
I tend to love the female jazz singers most, myself. I'd add one of my great favorites, Carmen McRae to the list, and for late night jazz, I can always listen to June Christie. At one time, I really loved Frank Sinatra, but he became a characiture of himself in later years. Mel Torme could always swing with the best of them, and I like Tony Bennett, too. I liked him even before MTV discovered him.
All that said, I love instrumental jazz, too... I find the "voices" just as expressive, with textures and nuances that are different but just as exciting to me. I tend to like jazz singers who sing with small groups, rather than full orchestras. I love Ella Fitzgerald's music and she always had good instrumentation behind her, but I would have loved to hear her more with just piano, drums, bass and guitar behind her... I loved her two vocals on the soundtrack of Pete Kelly's Blues for that reason. Jerry |
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27 Jul 02 - 06:42 PM (#755620) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Susan A-R The jazz musician in my household is just hauling the keyboard and amp into the house now as I write. There's a lot of Bill Evans, Monk, Brubeck and such happening in our living room. I now and then work on Strayhorn tunes, and love what Ella, Billy and Sarah, Mel, Nat and Tony do vocally. Nice thread. Jerry, probably when you were up here in VT. Michael was playing somewhere in the Burlington Area. Check in if you get up here in the fall and I'll see what is happening for jazz, folk, food and foliage. Susan |
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27 Jul 02 - 11:46 PM (#755735) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Genie Gargoyle, yes I am a musician, of sorts (piano and violin lessons, a lot of choir experience, can read sheet music, and have been playing guitar for over 40 years, in addition to writing songs) -- but I would hardly call myself a jazz musician (though I sing a lot of "jazz standards" and can even scat a little), and I consider my knowledge of music theory rudimentary. I'm not sure, though, what prompted the comment/question about my not being a musician. Of course, "the "rest" is one of the most powerful elements in ... music...unfortunately the novice tends to rush it and not." It's one of my pet peeves in some jams and sing-alongs that a lot of folks have no concept of the rest in music==or for the idea of measures and sustained notes either, for that matter. But, as you acknowledge, this applies to all music, not just jazz. So I repeat -- with my tongue planted firmly in my cheek ---, if to "...take jazz to the limits... you arrive at John Cage..." (the man who copyrighted silence), then, is silence jazz? (I'll even grin again: *G*) Genie |
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02 Aug 02 - 09:32 PM (#759048) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,.gargoyle Sorry Genie - I apologize - I mistook your *G*... grin for a disparaging sneer in regard to silence is music personally, I am not a John Cage-o-phile but he has his place in history.
Mea Culpa, |
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02 Aug 02 - 11:38 PM (#759093) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Jerry Rasmussen Case cleared. Thanks, Gargoyle... :-) Jerry |
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03 Aug 02 - 01:07 AM (#759122) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Genie No apology really needed, Garg. I just didn't understand your post. Now I do. John Cage, FWIW, was teaching at the Univ. of Illinois in Urbana-Champaign while I was a grad student there. His escapades (like using folks banging on folding chairs as music) were quite notorious, of course. I never got to hear one of his concerts, though. (Too busy studying, when I wasn't drinking beer and/or playing folk music.) One thing I'm curious about though: I know Cage's music is considered "experimental" (Duh...), but is it considered jazz? Genie |
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03 Aug 02 - 07:01 AM (#759206) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Jerry Rasmussen Champagne/Urbana, eh? Gee, maybe I saw you there, Genie. Back in 1959 I was working on my Master's thesis in Geology and spent a lot of time at Champagne/Urbana. One thing that I found very amusing was that the building that housed the Geology department straddled the line between the two towns. Of course, they had merged into one town, so it wasn't a long distance call from one end of the building to the other. When I went to Columbia University, I ended up back in Champagne/Urbana and the surrounding area, collecting fossils for a Doctoral degree which I decided not to pursue. But, I ended up getting some good songs out of a disastrous summer. At least five songs from my first album came out of that summer, including one about a hitchiker I picked up on the way to Dixon. I found out several years later that Dixon was Ronald Reagan's hometown so I sent him an album and got a nice letter back. (No, I didn't vote for him, even though he is a good Midwest boy.) I offered to come and sit on the porch of the White House and pick a few tunes for him if his job was ever getting to him, but he never took me up on it. :-) Jerry |
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03 Aug 02 - 04:00 PM (#759394) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Genie THREAD CREEP ALERT! Jerry, yeah, the towns had merged geographically, but not in a legal sense. Can't recall specific examples, but I know there were things you could do on one side of the street that was the main boundary between the towns but could get arrested for (or a ticket for) if you did them on the other side of the street. (BTW, for reasons I never knew, the town's name is spelled "Champaign.") I was in Urbana-Champaign from the fall of 1963 through the summer of 1969. I had a guitar and played and sang with friends whenever I could, but the only paid gig I recall having was at a bowling alley. They paid my partner and me $10 and a stack of their logo ashtrays! I did spots at a couple of "hootenannies," but in those days I hadn't gotten over my stagefright in front of big, unfamiliar audiences when I sang solo, so I'm sure I didn't play and sing my best in those spots. Steve Goodman was there, as a senior, in 1963-4, and he used to play at a coffeehouse called The Red Herring. Did you ever hear him, or had you left by the time he came to U of I? Genie |
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27 Jul 11 - 07:55 AM (#3196481) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST martin philpott does anyone know the name of the singer who appeared with Humphrey Lyttleton in the late 50's early 60's at the hermitage halls in hitchin |
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27 Jul 11 - 12:01 PM (#3196613) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,bankley yup.... I have a fine Eastman oval hole archtop with flatwound strings in my arsenal... it's a handmade copy of an early Gibson L4 that was favoured by Eddie Lang before f-hole archtops were introduced in the 1920`s... special sound... I`ve been learning some Joe Pass things, Lenny Breau harmonic clusters to go with the Manouche swing... I heard the word ``jazz`` itself came from the French Creole word jasser, to talk or `rap`... could be, coming from New Orleans and all.. |
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27 Jul 11 - 02:50 PM (#3196732) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: fat B****rd Guest Martin Philpott. It was I believe Marie Knight. Charlie |
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27 Jul 11 - 08:27 PM (#3196940) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Lox Yup - into Jazz - Sometimes I play it too ... |
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28 Jul 11 - 03:08 AM (#3197087) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,mike i think Louis armstromg that great JAZZ muso once said that all music was FOLK music, i a'nt never heard a mule sing a song i thought early jazz & blues were part of the great FOLK genre |
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28 Jul 11 - 08:05 AM (#3197206) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Lox Well then there's the sub-genre of Jazz known as Folk - not to be confused with Folk as we know it, but a valid Genre nonetheless. Last night I went to see one of its greatest proponents, Keith Jarrett, at the Festival Hall in london. Beautiful it was too. |
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28 Jul 11 - 02:49 PM (#3197436) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: gnu Keith is on You Tube... check out the vids. |
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29 Jul 11 - 12:14 PM (#3197962) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: olddude I really like it, I admit that I don't understand Jazz very well. I saw Kenny G listed under Jazz in one of the stores. All I do know is Kenny G ain't jazz. can't handle that guys music .. The New Orleans stuff ... love it .. old time jazz love it .. some of the modern jazz .. I don't get .. I wish I knew more. |
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29 Jul 11 - 03:17 PM (#3198060) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Stringsinger Thw words Jazz and rock have the same root. Jazz, originally spelled jass was a euphemism from the New Orleans house of ill repute meaning you-know-what. Rock has its roots in such lyrics as "My baby rocks me all night long." Genie, this is what me and my wife do. We have ukes, different sizes of guitars and tenor banjos. I grew up listening to Louis, oddly, Glenn Miller, later Bird then everything from Kid Ory, Octave Crosby to Esperanza Spalding including: Pres, Ella, Diz, the Judge, Lady Day, Miles, Trane, McCoy, The Hawk, Duke, Count, Hamp, Fats, Tatum, Sweets, Brubeck, Tristano, Chet, of course Bird, Maravishnu, Konitz, of course Satch, Big Eye, Slow Drag,Stuff, Belson, Benny, Zutty, Big Sid, |
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29 Jul 11 - 03:42 PM (#3198076) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Stringsinger Bix, Bunk, Sassy, Trummy, Miff, T., MJQ, ODJB, NORK, Django, Salvatore Massaro, Bechet, the Dukes, Christian,Hackett and Haggard, Fela and on and on it goes. I found out that jazz is folk music. It has a rich tradition, an identifiable lineage, cultural connections, constant variations, (variants), worldwide expression and recognition, constant creativity and when you really think about it, all music is somehow connected as the science of the auditory building of sound. We make arbitrary distinctions in music when it's all the same process. When you are trained in music, you learn to appreciate a wide range. Genie, what I meant is that my wife and I do the same music as you. |
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29 Jul 11 - 11:45 PM (#3198302) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Lox Hey Old dude Here's something you might enjoy ... The Song is an old folk song in the traditional sense ... The Piano style is "folk" jazz ... i.e. it involves a particular kind of Jazz Harmony that falls within the jazz sub genre of "folk"... The genre is definitely Jazz as the development of the tune, its arrangement and the harmony are all spontaneous ... and the Pianist is as modern a Jazz Player as they come! I won't attempt to classify it, but I will recommend it as a piece of astonishingly beautiful music. Enjoy ..... . |
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30 Jul 11 - 05:51 AM (#3198380) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Will Fly Hey Dan - try this for size - The Love Nest - which I've posted here before. Sweet tune from the 1920s, great chord sequence, lovely melody - and a little bit of fun with different stringed instruments. Just a bit of fluff... say "Goodnight", Gracie... |
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30 Jul 11 - 06:22 AM (#3198390) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray Jazz ain't Folk and Folk ain't Jazz. Vive la différence! |
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30 Jul 11 - 09:58 AM (#3198461) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,John Foxen Strange that no one has so far mentioned all the crossover between jazz and folk that has been going on for 50 years or more: Davey Graham playing Grooveyard (Carl Perkins) and Better Git It Into Your Soul (Mingues); Danny Thompson playing Haitian Fight Song (Mingus); John Renbourn playing among others Little Niles; David Grisman jamming with Sephan Grappelli and of course Ewan MacColl bringing in the "the Dirty Bopper" to add a sweet blues sound to Dirty Old Town. |
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31 Jul 11 - 04:50 AM (#3198954) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray The real link between folk & jazz is in A L Lloyd's po-faced & quite racist intro to The Penguin Book of Folk Songs in which he claims that a search for the roots of of Jazz will lead The Astonished Enthusiast back to English Folk Song. The roots of Jazz are rich and complicated I accept, probably a good deal richer & more complicated than anyone can ever fully appreciate, but when I listen to Louis Armstrong (Hot Fives!), Art Tatum, Duke Ellington, Dizzy Gillespie, Charlie Parker, John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Rahsaan Roland Kirk or Sun Ra I'm not digging too much fol-de-rol in there, know what I'm saying? But then again, you might hear something that fills your heart with a native familiarity - a distintive North English Soul in which The Blues comes keening over the bleak and blasted North York Moors and touches your heart so deep it just has to be true love. As the tears fill your eyes, then you might think of a whole other sort of Folk Music, and you'd be right... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oh8SbL3xQPE |
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31 Jul 11 - 11:38 AM (#3199117) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Stringsinger Jazz has become an international language. Euro-jazz is different from American jazz as is Asian, Middle Eastern, Hispanic etc. Today every nation can claim jazz as they do it as their own. Improvisation is at the root of jazz and is not new. Mozart could do it as well as a New Orleans street musician. English folk song as the root of jazz? I don't think so which doesn't devalue English folk music. There is a tendency in all music to conform to an idea of its native form and development and deviation from that is not tolerated. This is the case with English folk song, American Bluegrass, child ballad singing or any other rigid ideas about performing such music. Jazz helps us to realize just how interconnected and fluid music is. All forms of music are amalgams of earlier forms adapted to new times. Too many folk musicians tend to be antiquarian in their nostalgia ignoring that the music that they prefer was at one time new and different. Bach considered the dominant seventh chord dissonant in his day requiring immediate resolution. The flatted-fifth be bop chord would have been burned at the musical stake in those days. Music has to be understood as different languages for varied cultures and nations. You put on a different set of ears to listen to Jeannie Robertson or Margaret Barry, Almeda Riddle, Horton Barker, or Texas Gladden then you do to hear Bird, Monk or Trane, Louis, Tatum, etc., each having its own musical parameters to understanding it. The origin of the term "blues" may have come from William Shakespeare's "blue devils" but what we familiarly know as the blues is from American south, Mississippi, Alabama, etc.which is not to say that it couldn't be applied to any sad, deep music from Flamenco "conte hondo" to Irish "keening" or the shepherd's horn on the Steppes of Central Asia (see the opening bars of Stravinky's Rites of Spring). Musical terms are continuing to be redefined such as "folk" or "jazz" as different languages grow and borrow from each other creating new words. |
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31 Jul 11 - 09:16 PM (#3199385) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Lox There isn't much fol-de-rol in mongolian, hungarian, peruvian or tibeten folk music ... |
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01 Aug 11 - 11:40 AM (#3199751) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,John Foxen For a glorious meeting of the English musical tradition, the French tradition, Gypsy music and Jazz you could always listen to Django and Stephan playing The Lambeth Walk. |
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01 Aug 11 - 11:51 AM (#3199761) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,Suibhne Astray There isn't much fol-de-rol in mongolian, hungarian, peruvian or tibeten folk music I guess they don't derive from English Folk Music either... |
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01 Aug 11 - 12:20 PM (#3199782) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,josepp Anything with Neils Pedersen on bass, Bill Evans with either Eddie Gomez or Scott LaFaro on bass, Junko Onishi, and I love Martin, Medeski & Wood. As for fusion, I'll always love Brand X. Stan Kenton with either Anita O'Day or June Christie. Kenny Drew with Paul Chambers. Irene Kral. Oscar Peterson. Esperanza, of course. |
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01 Aug 11 - 12:37 PM (#3199796) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Bettynh Django and Grapelli "Lambeth Walk" Blues and tibetan throat-singing |
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09 Sep 11 - 08:15 PM (#3220915) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Joe_F It has become clear to me over the years that I am completely missing a huge range of emotional responses to music that other people find both obvious & important. However, what is left over may still be worth mentioning. What endears jazz (& classical music) to me is empathy for the performers. They sound like they're having fun. |
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03 Nov 18 - 04:11 PM (#3959925) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: keberoxu Another established jazz musician just died. I started an Obit thread for him -- Roy Hargrove. He came from Waco, Texas, and he died of kidney disease before his fiftieth birthday arrived. His reputation is tremendous, the accolades and outpourings of emotion are filling the internet. His fellow musicians are grieving. Jerry Rasmussen, who started this thread, listens to his recordings. |
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03 Nov 18 - 08:09 PM (#3959955) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,ripov While connecting jazz to english folk may seem a bit of a stretch, Christopher Simpson's book 'Divisions on the Viol' basically explains how to improvise on a theme, and many 3/2 hornpipes are played as sets of improvisations, or at least variations. And also lot of 'art' music of that period when english music took the world by storm. So it's closer, at least in spirit, than you might think! |
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05 Nov 18 - 01:05 PM (#3960244) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: keberoxu I wonder where the Mills Brothers fit in? They truly are from a century that is now history. The Mills Brothers used to execute, in public, an arrangement of Ellington's Black and Tan, what was it, symphony? NOT Black Brown and Beige, that's a different piece. And one of the Mills Brothers' earliest recordings is "Hold That TI - GER! [grrr!]" |
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05 Nov 18 - 05:55 PM (#3960297) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,ripov Sorry, not on a theme, but on a ground. That is in formal terms a ground bass. Or in more modern terms a bass riff. Concept sound familiar? |
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05 Nov 18 - 05:58 PM (#3960298) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: keberoxu I started a thread, a while back, about singer Betty Carter. It turned into an obit thread because no obit thread existed for her, up to then; she has in fact been dead for the better part of twenty years I believe. She started out, my homework showed me, a most compliant young thing, willing to compromise and harmonize. She turned militant and high-spirited, and her career was as divisive as it was attractive. For me, Betty Carter is not perfection, and did not have to be -- she is one of those who push the limits of what is possible. And I admired the courage of her convictions and her tenacity in publishing her own recordings when no one else would produce her or offer her a contract. I couldn't be Betty Carter if I tried, and I don't expect everybody to hold to her standards. For all that, I'm awfully glad she came, and stayed, as long as she did. |
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05 Nov 18 - 06:07 PM (#3960302) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Helen Genie, on 23 Jul 02 - 02:02 AM mentioned the wonderful Ken Burns series called Jazz. I watched it avidly up to the era of Miles Davis* and never finished watching the series. The evolution of jazz, the social foundations of jazz, the issues of social justice, and the music are all fascinating to me. I have always loved the jazz, swing, dixieland and ragtime styles. The first person on my list to meet in the after life is Mr Armstrong. He's my hero, and as someone in the Jazz series described him, a genius. My list of jazz greats is pretty long, and most have been mentioned already. I don't relate to the modern non-melodic, all-over-the-place rhythm "jazz" so much. I have not spent time trying to get into the Miles Davis era of jazz so much. I would probably like it if I spent the time understanding it, but I doubt if I would love it like I love the jazz, swing, dixieland and ragtime styles. Helen |
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05 Nov 18 - 06:22 PM (#3960306) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: GUEST,keberoxu Well, Helen, I didn't watch the series -- but I take it that the parts you watched included Charlie Parker and Dizzy Gillespie, what did you make of them? |
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05 Nov 18 - 07:51 PM (#3960318) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Helen I haven't heard any Dizzy Gillespie for quite a while but I used to like his style. I'm just reminding myself about Charlie Bird Parker's work, i.e. listening to a video of All the Things You Are. I probably haven't heard much of his work, so I'm not sure. But I usually like "raucous" music (all styles) more than the laid-back type. |
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06 Nov 18 - 01:14 PM (#3960407) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: keberoxu There are links to recorded performances, by Roy Hargrove, in this online article from The Guardian. |
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06 Nov 18 - 10:55 PM (#3960469) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: PHJim I'm always amazed to see these 16 year old threads revived. I became a jazz fan in the mid-sixties. With some high-school buddies, I'd often hitch-hike to Buffalo or Toronto from Dundas to hear performers like Miles Davis, Dizzy Gillespie, Jim Hall, Cannonball Adderley, Nina Simone, Bill Evans, Junior Mance, Jimmy Smith, Oscar Peterson, Herb Ellis, Joe Williams, Gabor Szabo, Chico Hamilton, Herbie Hancock, Barney Kessel. . . In 1968-69 I was hitch-hiking overseas and in London I broke my "Pound a day" rule and went to Ronnie Scott's Jazz Club. I was watching Jack McDuff play when I noticed three familiar faces at the next table. I knew I had seen them, probably on an album cover or in downbeat magazine. Then Jack McDuff said, "I'm going to ask a friend of mine to come up and do a tune or two. That's John Hendricks sitting over there with Bill Cosby and Clarence Williams III." |
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07 Nov 18 - 02:52 AM (#3960478) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: Will Fly I've played in jazz outfits and occasionally as a solo guitarist for over 50 years - in between playing rock'n roll, funk and folk music! I first heard "traditional" (in the UK) jazz in the late '50s, when there was a vogue for that music here, and started playing in a 7-piece mainstream band around 1978. I was with them for about 5 years before peeling off to play other music and, in that time, played with people like trumpeter Humphrey Lyttelton, clarinettist Monty Sunshine and tenor player Danny Moss. All great experiences in a period which taught me a huge amount about music, improvisation, transposition, etc. My current "hero", if one can have such a thing in one's mid-70s, is New York guitarist Woody Mann, who studies with Reverend Gary Davis as a teenager, then went to Juillard and also studies with Lennie Tristano. I've taken the plunge and signed up for Woody's 3-day guitar "retreat" in Buxton, Darbyshire next June. I don't know whether I'll be up to the assorted standards there, but it will be a wonderful experience. And so it goes on. |
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08 Nov 18 - 01:58 AM (#3960658) Subject: RE: Jazz, anyone? From: keberoxu This instrumental is only ten years old. Other musicians are all over it -- I just heard it for the first time. Strasbourg St Denis by the Roy Hargrove Quintet |